Jesus taught the reality of “original sin” without those specific words.
If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give what is good to those who ask Him!
Matthew 7:11
Mark 7:20-23
20 And He was saying, “That which proceeds out of the man, that is what defiles the man. 21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed the evil thoughts, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries, 22 deeds of coveting and wickedness, as well as deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride and foolishness. 23 All these evil things proceed from within and defile the man.”
The prophet Davood taught the same thing:
Psalm 51:4-5
Psalm 58:3
God said the same thing way back in Genesis:
Genesis 6:5
Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
and in the prophets:
Jeremiah 17:9-10
“The heart is more deceitful than all else
And is desperately sick;
Who can understand it?
10 “I, the Lord, search the heart,
I test the mind, . . .
the heart is deceptive and sick; who can understand it?
Yes they do. They speak the truth of what “original sin” is, without the exact words, “original sin” (which is also very misunderstood – it does not mean only Adam and Eve’s first sin, it means “inherited sin” by birth, from conception – as Psalm 51:5 and 58:3 clearly say; and Genesis 6:5; Jer. 17:9 teach is the heart of humans by nature.
Jesus said that fathers who care about their children are already “evil” by nature; Matthew 7:11
and
that sins come from the heart – they are already there from the beginning – points to inherited original sin that we inherited from Adam.
Ken Original Sin talks about Adam and Eve. The best you can get out of the verses you quoted is the nature of human beings in general, NOT it’s origins with Adam and Eve.
It is passed on and inherited – we are all born selfish, prideful, self-centered. That is why children have to be taught to NOT be that way. Selfishness is inherent in the heart.
We see it immediately manifest in the jealousy and anger and conflict and violence and murder of Cain vs. Abel in Genesis 4.
Since Ken believes that children are “evil”, then perhaps he can answer the question that I have been asking Christians for a while and never getting a definitive answer: can babies and children go to hell?
If original sin is true, then it follows that babies and children (who according to Ken’s sick mind are “evil”) could conceivably be sent to hell. I have yet to see a Christian explicitly deny this. Most of avoid the question or said “I don’t know” (which actually implies that it is possible).
Wrong children are born wanting to do good according to pretty much all studies concluded:
There is also a growing body of scientific evidence which demonstrates that toddlers exhibit a form of “altruism”.[57] This evidence contradicts the claims of original sin proponents since altruistic behavior is essentially “selfless” behavior, which would not be expected in a being that is supposedly born with “evil inclinations”. A 2008 study conducted by psychologist Michael Tomasello showed evidence of innate altruistic behavior in toddlers. In a lecture given in 2008, Tanner stated that:
“[f]rom when they first begin to walk and talk and become truly cultural beings, young human children are naturally cooperative and helpful in many—though obviously not all—situations… And they do not get this from adults; it comes naturally.”[58]
Another study conducted in 2011 showed that infants as young as 15 months old were able to tell the difference between equal and unequal food distribution. Commenting on the results of this study, the lead scientist, Professor Jessica Sommerville stated that:
“[o]ur findings show that these norms of fairness and altruism are more rapidly acquired than we thought…”[59]
Yet another study demonstrated “empathic behavior” in infants as early as 18 months of age. In this study, infants witnessed a teddy bear suffering a simulated “accident”. Upon witnessing the “accident”, many toddlers showed a sense of “distress and concern”. Not only that, but many “also responded by trying to help or comfort the bear.”[60]
For further review pretty much all studies concluded 3 month-year-olds preferred the good characters to the evil ones:
Humans are scared to kill or do violence to one another as well (See the book “On Killing: The Psychological Cost of Learning to Kill in War and Society by Dave Grossman)
So there is no scientific basis for “Original Sin” and the results favor what Islam says.
As a note about the video, I forgot to mention this study is by no means comprehensives and one can argue children preferred the color of the animal. But the point is pretty much majority of studies done have concluded people want to do good.
Jesus taught the reality of “original sin” without those specific words.
If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give what is good to those who ask Him!
Matthew 7:11
Mark 7:20-23
20 And He was saying, “That which proceeds out of the man, that is what defiles the man. 21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed the evil thoughts, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries, 22 deeds of coveting and wickedness, as well as deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride and foolishness. 23 All these evil things proceed from within and defile the man.”
The prophet Davood taught the same thing:
Psalm 51:4-5
Psalm 58:3
God said the same thing way back in Genesis:
Genesis 6:5
Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
and in the prophets:
Jeremiah 17:9-10
“The heart is more deceitful than all else
And is desperately sick;
Who can understand it?
10 “I, the Lord, search the heart,
I test the mind, . . .
the heart is deceptive and sick; who can understand it?
So, Matthew Fox is wrong.
Those quotes do not imply Jesus saying anything about Original Sin. You’re stretching and reaching as you always do.
Yes they do. They speak the truth of what “original sin” is, without the exact words, “original sin” (which is also very misunderstood – it does not mean only Adam and Eve’s first sin, it means “inherited sin” by birth, from conception – as Psalm 51:5 and 58:3 clearly say; and Genesis 6:5; Jer. 17:9 teach is the heart of humans by nature.
Jesus said that fathers who care about their children are already “evil” by nature; Matthew 7:11
and
that sins come from the heart – they are already there from the beginning – points to inherited original sin that we inherited from Adam.
Ken Original Sin talks about Adam and Eve. The best you can get out of the verses you quoted is the nature of human beings in general, NOT it’s origins with Adam and Eve.
It is passed on and inherited – we are all born selfish, prideful, self-centered. That is why children have to be taught to NOT be that way. Selfishness is inherent in the heart.
We see it immediately manifest in the jealousy and anger and conflict and violence and murder of Cain vs. Abel in Genesis 4.
Again that’s not THE Original Sin. Merely human nature.
You are wrong Ken. Those quotes say NOTHING about original sin.
without using the exact phrase, “original sin”, what do they mean?
go through all of them.
start with Matthew 7:11
you are just making an assertion. You cannot avoid the implications of all those verses.
you are doing eisegesis not exegesis
nope.
But try to explain what Jesus means in Matthew 7:11
?
Since Ken believes that children are “evil”, then perhaps he can answer the question that I have been asking Christians for a while and never getting a definitive answer: can babies and children go to hell?
https://bloggingtheology2.com/2019/01/05/do-babies-go-to-hell/
If original sin is true, then it follows that babies and children (who according to Ken’s sick mind are “evil”) could conceivably be sent to hell. I have yet to see a Christian explicitly deny this. Most of avoid the question or said “I don’t know” (which actually implies that it is possible).
@ QB
Oooohhhhh I want to hear this answer. (Grabs popcorn)
@ Ken
Wrong children are born wanting to do good according to pretty much all studies concluded:
There is also a growing body of scientific evidence which demonstrates that toddlers exhibit a form of “altruism”.[57] This evidence contradicts the claims of original sin proponents since altruistic behavior is essentially “selfless” behavior, which would not be expected in a being that is supposedly born with “evil inclinations”. A 2008 study conducted by psychologist Michael Tomasello showed evidence of innate altruistic behavior in toddlers. In a lecture given in 2008, Tanner stated that:
“[f]rom when they first begin to walk and talk and become truly cultural beings, young human children are naturally cooperative and helpful in many—though obviously not all—situations… And they do not get this from adults; it comes naturally.”[58]
Another study conducted in 2011 showed that infants as young as 15 months old were able to tell the difference between equal and unequal food distribution. Commenting on the results of this study, the lead scientist, Professor Jessica Sommerville stated that:
“[o]ur findings show that these norms of fairness and altruism are more rapidly acquired than we thought…”[59]
Yet another study demonstrated “empathic behavior” in infants as early as 18 months of age. In this study, infants witnessed a teddy bear suffering a simulated “accident”. Upon witnessing the “accident”, many toddlers showed a sense of “distress and concern”. Not only that, but many “also responded by trying to help or comfort the bear.”[60]
For further review pretty much all studies concluded 3 month-year-olds preferred the good characters to the evil ones:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FRvVFW85IcU
Humans are scared to kill or do violence to one another as well (See the book “On Killing: The Psychological Cost of Learning to Kill in War and Society by Dave Grossman)
So there is no scientific basis for “Original Sin” and the results favor what Islam says.
As a note about the video, I forgot to mention this study is by no means comprehensives and one can argue children preferred the color of the animal. But the point is pretty much majority of studies done have concluded people want to do good.
I would like to add that the above is from my article on original sin: https://quranandbibleblog.wordpress.com/2017/07/27/born-a-sinner-a-critical-investigation-of-the-origin-of-original-sin/
@ QB
Whoops, sorry QB I thought I posted the link.