32 replies

  1. Why did the Jews of Paul’s day reject the Christian claims about Jesus being the promised messiah? The answer is simple.
    BY PAUL WILLIAMS on SEPTEMBER 11, 2020 • ( 56 )

    To Paul Williams, @ bogging Theology

    Psalm 22:1-33 surely shows a suffering servant and intricate details of the death and resurrection of Yeshua. Paul Williams, you asked for ANY Jew that before the time of the so-called apostle Paul’s( fake apostle in my opinion) time that bore witness to the conscience of a suffering Messiah. You were given Isaiah 53 you ignored it. Now Psalm 22, I doubt you will acknowledge it either. I started reading this thread thinking you might be an intellectual and a real academic by the article’s title. But you are neither, you show yourself to be a polemic shill by your own debate by ignoring the evidence supplied rather than deliberating on that evidence. So, Isaiah testifies to a suffering Messiah, King David testifies to a suffering Messiah, The DSS writings clearly show the same suffering Messiah with the teacher of righteousness persecution and murder. A fact that you deliberately spoke untruthfully about in your citation of the Dead Sea Scrolls. Never mind the overall theme of the DSS writing concerning the son of light war with the sons of darkness and the sons of light defeat in that war, and their suffering in the darkness that covers the face of the earth until Melchizedek appears and vindicates the sons of light.
    I was going to ask you and your site to review a book I have written about the evidence that shows Saul of Tarsus i.e., Paul was not who the New Covenant claims him to be, and his version of the New Testament actually apposed what Yeshua taught. However, I think that would be a waste of my academic time. YOU clearly only push your own agenda of your preconceived bias loyal to either atheism or Akiva-ism and or possibly Islam, of which of the three I do not know. Love of truth is not in your wheelhouse if it was you have displayed it in those debates with Ken Temple and at the least would have acknowledged his perspective. I will look for an honest “real” academic that can themselves respect a perspective other than his own. enough said

    Thomas L Cossette 9/12 2021

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  2. Islam-o-fascism propaganda at its best, both speakers shills for the cause. Shirai law is as unjust as any other despots decrees on the planet. It as no rights for woman once she reaches puberty and the rights she had before was the shadow of her own father. Let a woman get divorced and on her own, and you see they have no rights, see how it upholds and for how long. Islamic culture proves this out from its inauguration by how it’s overall culture treats independent woman. Kadejah was a bandit ruling men and Mohamed was her employee then toy but in the end Mohamed own all she had, as Muslim men do today by way of marriage. Who can have more than 4 wives in Islam?… Answer …The ruling despot. Not even her children were her own…”Your children are mine and for your jealousy of my many other by which wives I have amassed power … I will pray God removes Jealousy from you.” She is never heard of again.

    Most likely by modern Islamic society she shut her mouth from complaining to save her own life. To this Paul Williams says “how sweet” a shill is a shill is a shill

    “You shall know them by there fruits” a female wolf is still a wolf, loyal to the pack, lest the pack eat her. Let Paul William’s guest divorce and see how fast she is eaten by her own. The Islam cult-ure history proves this. It is more political than religious and fascist at the core.

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      • No I just know what it is. It is Fascist in all its ways. I actually mourn for those seduced by it, because like Islam’s sisters Fascism and Marxism the two different sides of the same coin, once you are in, you cant get out, all three put a fatwah on any that are disillusioned and seek to leave. In all honest tell everyone here what happens to Muslim who walks away from Islam. the question is, is it possible for you to tell the truth for truth sake.
        So what happens to the Muslim the decides to be a Christian or a Buddhist or Hindu? This a test of your honesty.

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      • “So what happens to the Muslim the decides to be a Christian or a Buddhist or Hindu?”

        They are free to go.

        Do you think I’m going to kill them? No

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      • That is a bald face lie I know it and you know it. A fatwah is placed on them and they are killed if found. I am amused by your question…. Do you think I’m going to kill them? Of course I know YOU would not be the killer, However we both know if such a situation is brought to a Islamic cleric and the fatwah is placed on the person who leaves Islam, whoever fulfills the fatwah will receive no penalty for killing that person. Furthermore in some Islamic sects there are bounty hunters who can make a living collecting fatwah bounties.

        lets keep on Shirai law

        For your information: When Omar Kyan wrote the story of Ali Babba and the 40 thieves it was a satire on Islam. He wrote it right under Muslim scholars noses, they never caught on. It is much like the claim Islam invented algebra another lie. The Egyptians were using algebra 4000 years before Islam Euclid wrote the premise of algebra and geometry 2500 years before Islam.

        True history is a ass kicker for Islam, Fascism, and Marxism, thus the need for those bounties.

        You failed the test

        Paul Williams fails the test,

        Truth is not in neither of your collective wheelhouses. My purpose to continue talking to a liar like you self is simply for other readers you try to propagandize that they might research independent of your propagandization and my anti propaganda record. Keep talking, and readers will keep reading and the intelligent will do the research and the more you speak the easier it will be to find the truth of Shirai Law. So why to I bother Yeshua said, love your neighbor as yourself, if a grifter is grifting your neighbor you warn him they are being grifted.

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      • “That is a bald face lie I know it and you know it.”

        You don’t like my answer, and you call me lie?

        Which lies?

        “However we both know if such a situation is brought to a Islamic cleric and the fatwah is placed on the person who leaves Islam, whoever fulfills the fatwah will receive no penalty for killing that person”

        What the fatwah says about it?

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      • You know the lie that they can go free if they decide to leave Islam that lie. The truth about fatwahs getting under your skin?

        lets move on to another Shirai law. If a Muslim man and a non Muslim goes into civil court over a dispute such as property or livestock the Muslim win automatically to teach the non Muslim he should converted even if the evidence is in the non Muslim favor. However the Muslim receive stripe for his theft but is allowed to keep what he stole from the non Muslim his stripe the Muslim gets are for giving Islam a bad name.But no action to restore is required of the disciple of Ali Babba (Islam) that is your Shirai law.

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      • Wait, you didn’t provide here what the fatwah says about apostasy. What it says?

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    • Dude stfu, your diabolic cult forced men to kill a woman who is a rape victim because she didn’t cry out for help and forced unmarried women to mary their own rapists, women’s hands were cut off if they seized the balls of another man that isn’t her husband in a fight to protect her spouse, had Sarah bowing down to Abraham, Solomon married 300 wives and 700 concubines, etc etc

      Yes Islam punished apostates with the capital punishment. That’s the same punishment your book orders. And you know what else it orders? The death of a person for breaking the Sabbath, the death of a person who insult his/her parents, the death of a person who commits adultery, the death of anyone who makes a false prophecy, the death of anyone who shows contempt for the judge or for the priest , a complete genocide of men, women, children, babies and livestock because of what their forfathers did ages ago and the list goes on and on.
      And don’t give me the usual xtian dogs**t of ”iT’s In ThE oOoOoOoOlD tEsTaMenT”. As if that refutes anything.

      “If there is a young woman, a virgin already engaged to be married, and a man meets her in the town and lies with her, you shall…stone them to death, the young woman because she did not cry for help…and the man because he violated his neighbor’s wife.” [If the woman is not engaged] “the man who lay with her shall give 50 shekels of silver to the young woman’s father, and she shall become his wife.” Ephesians 5:22-23

      “Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak… And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home.” 1 Timothy 2:13-15

      If two men are fighting and the wife of one of them comes to rescue her husband from his assailant, and she reaches out and seizes him by his private parts,you shall cut off her hand. Show her no pity. Deut 25:11-12

      Anyone who shows contempt for the judge or for the priest who stands ministering there to the Lord your God is to be put to death. You must purge the evil from Israel. Deut 17:12

      This is just the top of the iceberg.
      So stfu and know your place you polytheistic virmin.

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  3. Still looking to hear Paul Williams statement to how he played Ken Temple. Does Mr. Williams think he was fair in his discussion? He should be embarrassed by his behavior but I doubt he is. Both of you are shills for deception hiding under doctrinnates and degrees.

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  4. I have said what a fatwah says twice now. I have read the Koran and the Hadith when I was young and looking for my path in life. The doctrine and Shirai law concerning apostates and property law is more related to the Cosa Nostra than any true religion. I only expect you to keep side stepping by saying I have not answered your questions when I have intricacy explain how fatwahs are used and why they are exercised. However I have moved you to admit the fatwah exists is progress. Though doing so is like pulling teeth.

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    • Exactly, you didn’t answer it. You can’t provide what the fatwah exactly say.

      You mention you read the Quran, what the Quran says about apostasy?

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      • Traditional Sunni and Shia Islamic fiqhs, or schools of jurisprudence (maḏāhib) agree on some issues—that male apostates should be executed, and that most but not all perpetrators should not be given a chance to repent (the excluded include those who practice magic (subhar), treacherous heretics (zanādiqa, and recidivists”).[6] They disagree on issues such as whether women can be executed,[127][128][129] whether apostasy is a violation of “the rights of God”,[6][130] whether apostates who were born Muslim may be spared if they repent,[6] whether conviction requires the accused be a practicing Muslim,[6] or whether it is enough to simply intend to commit apostasy rather than actually doing it.[6]
        Hanafi – recommends three days of imprisonment before execution, although the delay before killing the Muslim apostate is not mandatory. Apostasy is not a Hudood crime.[131] Unlike in other schools it is not obligatory to call on the apostate to repent.[6] Apostate men must be killed, while women must be held in solitary confinement and beaten every three days till they recant and return to Islam.[132] Penalty for Apostasy limited for those who cause Hirabah after leaving Islam, not for personal religion change.[133]
        Maliki – allows up to ten days for recantation, after which the apostate must be killed. Apostasy is a Hudood crime.[131] Both men and women apostates deserve death penalty according to the traditional view of Sunni Maliki fiqh.[129] Unlike other schools, the apostate must have a history of being “good” (i.e. practicing) Muslim.[6]
        Shafi’i – waiting period of three days is required to allow the Muslim apostate time to repent and return to Islam. Failing repentance, execution is the recommended punishment for both men and women.[129] Apostasy is not a Hudood crime.[131]
        Hanbali – waiting period not necessary, but may be granted. Apostasy is a Hudood crime.[131] Execution is traditional recommended punishment for both genders of Muslim apostates.[129]

        but you already knew all this though you said any who wished to leave Islam was free to do so this is why I called you a liar.

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      • I’m not done with you about apostasy.

        Why do you call me a liar?

        You haven’t mention what the Quran says about apostasy?

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  5. Tom L Cossette, your incoherent anti Islam rants as well as your multiple grammatical and spelling mistakes made me lose a few IQ points.

    Not only do you have an entirely warped understanding of Islamic law, history and doctrines.. you are also a bonafide Idiot.

    It is hard to believe that you are the same person who wrote books like “The Way of Melchizedek”

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    • Well it is simple, I called you a liar, because I asked you, what happens to Muslim who recants Islam, you said, they go free as they please.

      I showed you. the Shafi’i, position
      The Hanbali, position
      The Maliki, position
      The Hanafi, position for the crime of apostasy ” leaving Islam” all sects under Islamic jurisprudence require death of the apostate.

      So we now have gone around this same corner six time on the same Issue I have answered every question you asked. So let me ask you again for the 7th time. This time I am not asking YOU what YOU think SHOULD happen to a Muslim that leaves Islam.
      I ask what happens to such a person under ISLAMIC LAW what happens . I know ask again in front of all the evidence presented; UNDER ISLAMIC What happens to the man who forsakes Islam for another faith such as Christianity, Buddhism or Hinduism?

      Actually I am quite pleased with myself that I remember Shirai Law so accurately, it has been 50 some odd years since I investigated Islam as a path in life.

      The FRAUD is all yours with your benign sales pitch of your book ‘Women and Gender in The Qur’an

      Thank you for giving ‘The Way of Melchizedek’ a plug.

      Celene, the day content becomes more important than grammar and spelling will be the day your lost IQ points begin to return to you. In all sincerity, I wish you the best (NOT your book! ) but I wish you the best. Becoming wealthy by tricking the unsuspecting to enter tyranny really does not become you! Neither is it the way of Melchizedek, the God king of Truth. Be truthful be honest, and live Celene Ibrahim.

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      • You showed the Shafii, Hanbali, Maliki, Hanafi position.

        I ask YOU the position of the top in the ISLAMIC LAW, THE QURAN:

        WHAT THE QURAN SAY ABOUT APOSTASY?

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      • Still no answer about WHAT THE QURAN SAYS ABOUT APOSTASY?

        You said you read the Quran but you can’t answer it, now look, WHO IS THE LIAR?

        or maybe you want to explain what the Bible says about apostasy?

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      • Well Yesterday was Yom Kippur, So I keep it holy sanctified from minutia like your white washing of Islam.

        I have already told you what the Quran says about apostasy seven times already. A fatwah is placed on them and they are killed if found.(from sept 13th) then you asked what is a fatwa. It is a written warren by a Islamic celery I.e Jurist,

        I showed you. the Shafi’i, position
        The Hanbali, position
        The Maliki, position
        The Hanafi, position for the crime of apostasy ” leaving Islam” all sects under Islamic jurisprudence require death of the apostate. according to the Quran.

        My Quran went out with the trash a couple years ago my wife could no longer abide it be in our house any longer. I knew when a debate like this came up I would need it but I was not going to put may hand into the trash to pull trash out.

        So I can not quote the shira i.e. verse and chapter in verbatim. So why don’t you? I have shown what every group of Islamic jurisprudence cleric says within the Muslim faith says.

        Are you saying they are all wrong?

        You say a person is free to join any other religion…..that is in error ….if you were a novis in the religion I would NOT have called you a liar. But since you are NOTa novis you are still a liar.

        play the bitching game if you please. You could have posted the Apostasy decrees/rules from the Quran if you wanted to from the beginning, to prove me wrong and we would have been done with This. But with you it is about having the last word the bitch/prostitute game that you now play. You try to whore truth with endless claims that I have not answered your questions. When in fact I have shown what all the highest regarded cleric of Islam has to say on the subject. bitch away!

        READERS SEE AND UNDERSTAND your false shawl of understanding and tolerance is pulled away and the naked whore that you are for Islamic tyranny is revealed.

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      • Very simple, when I ask you to show the fatwa you’re able do it but when I ask you to show what the Quran say about apostasy you’re not able to do it. You said you read the Quran but you don’t know it. What a LIAR!.

        You said: ” I knew when a debate like this came up I would need it but I was not going to put may hand into the trash to pull trash out.”

        What a stupid excuse!

        Why don’t you say “I DON’T KNOW” instead of pretending you know everything but you don’t know everything.

        I know people like you, everytime talk about Islam you always talk about killing.
        Why don’t you look into your Bible about it, what the Bible says about the punishment for the apostate?
        Dare you talk about it?

        What a HYPOCRITE!

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      • Atlas I appreciate your answer and I have no problems with your comparisons I admit they are there in the bible. None of this was the issue. The issue from the beginning was Ms. Ibrahim lying saying that they go free, that was it. She was or is Sugar coating immersion in Islam. My point which I think you will agree with, we are to tell the truth what someone is getting into. That is the only point I was making I would tell anyone joining Judaism the same there is corporal punishment, in Judaism if you join know what you are getting into. So honesty rather than trickery is a must! I said from the beginning to Ms.Ibrahim “this is a test ” a test she failed. she is not honest…. you have been honest and I appreciate that.

        Also Ephesian 5:22-23 does not say what you said, that was in in Exodus or Leviticus. As far as Paul’s writing in Timothy Paul was expelled from the reall church and his church is what made war on Islam but only after they killed off the Mses covenant people in the original movement of believers of Yeshua:

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      • You said: “You try to whore truth with endless claims that I have not answered your questions. When in fact I have shown what all the highest regarded cleric of Islam has to say on the subject. bitch away!”

        Exactly! You have not answered this : WHAT THE QURAN SAYS ABOUT APOSTASY?

        1. Give a verse from the Quran about punishment for the apostate
        2. Give a verse from the Bible about punishment for the apostate

        Let’s READERS SEE AND UNDERSTAND your false shawl of understanding and tolerance is pulled away and the naked whore that you are for the Christian tyranny is revealed.

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      • Dude stfu, your diabolic cult forced men to kill a woman who is a rape victim because she didn’t cry out for help and forced unmarried women to mary their own rapists, women’s hands were cut off if they seized the balls of another man that isn’t her husband in a fight to protect her spouse, had Sarah bowing down to Abraham, Solomon married 300 wives and 700 concubines, etc etc

        Yes Islam punished apostates with the capital punishment. That’s the same punishment your book orders. And you know what else it orders? The death of a person for breaking the Sabbath, the death of a person who insult his/her parents, the death of a person who commits adultery, the death of anyone who makes a false prophecy, the death of anyone who shows contempt for the judge or for the priest , a complete genocide of men, women, children, babies and livestock because of what their forfathers did ages ago and the list goes on and on.
        And don’t give me the usual xtian dogs**t of ”iT’s In ThE oOoOoOoOlD tEsTaMenT”. As if that refutes anything.

        “If there is a young woman, a virgin already engaged to be married, and a man meets her in the town and lies with her, you shall…stone them to death, the young woman because she did not cry for help…and the man because he violated his neighbor’s wife.” [If the woman is not engaged] “the man who lay with her shall give 50 shekels of silver to the young woman’s father, and she shall become his wife.” Ephesians 5:22-23

        “Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak… And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home.” 1 Timothy 2:13-15

        If two men are fighting and the wife of one of them comes to rescue her husband from his assailant, and she reaches out and seizes him by his private parts,you shall cut off her hand. Show her no pity. Deut 25:11-12

        Anyone who shows contempt for the judge or for the priest who stands ministering there to the Lord your God is to be put to death. You must purge the evil from Israel. Deut 17:12

        This is just the top of the iceberg.
        So stfu and know your place you polytheistic virmin.

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      • Take an easy bro Atlas, let’s expose this Islam’s hater because they like to talk about the killing.

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      • “The issue from the beginning was Ms. Ibrahim lying saying that they go free, that was it.”

        Fair enough. My apologies for the rude language.

        To make this whole conversation between you and sam short: there is no verse in the Qur’an which says to kill the apostates but it’s found in the hadith:

        Ibn ‘Abbas said:
        “The Messenger of Allah [SAW] said: ‘Whoever changes his religion, kill him.'”
        Sahih (Darussalam)
        Sunan an-Nasa’i 4059

        Ibn ‘Abbas (RAA) narrated that The Messenger of Allah said, “He who changes his religion (i.e. apostates) kill him.”
        Al-Bukhari.
        Book 9, Hadith 1242

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      • @ Ms Tom

        Lesson learnt, you call me a liar because you don’t know The Quran, you said you read the Quran but know nothing, all you know is about killing and killing. If you know the Quran you won’t call me a liar because there is no command to kill the apostate in the Quran, that’s why according to the Quran they are free to go but Allah will punish them in the judgement day. Allah just asks muslim to remind them.

        By call me a liar actually the lies is in your mouth.

        If you are a Jews, you already know it is in your Bible.

        The Quran is the highest Islamic Law, no muslim can argue with the Quran.

        I said they are free to go, because the Quran never tell muslim to kill them, some muslims have that position, including me.

        From the beginning I could give you a verse from the Quran and the Bible, but you want to test me and actually I already tested you and you failed.

        Let’s finish this up:

        Quran 2:256:
        256. There shall be no compulsion in religion; the right way has become distinct from the wrong way. Whoever renounces evil and believes in God has grasped the most trustworthy handle; which does not break. God is Hearing and Knowing.

        Quran 88:
        21. So remind. You are only a reminder.
        22. You have no control over them.
        23. But whoever turns away and disbelieves.
        24. God will punish him with the greatest punishment.
        25. To Us is their return.
        26. Then upon Us rests their reckoning.

        Quran 18:29:
        And say, ˹O Prophet,˺ “˹This is˺ the truth from your Lord. Whoever wills let them believe, and whoever wills let them disbelieve.” Surely We have prepared for the wrongdoers a Fire whose walls will ˹completely˺ surround them. When they cry for aid, they will be aided with water like molten metal, which will burn ˹their˺ faces. What a horrible drink! And what a terrible place to rest!

        Deuteronomy 13:
        6 Suppose your very own brother or sister secretly tempts you to do something wrong. Or your child or the wife you love tempts you. Or your closest friend does it. Suppose one of them says, “Let’s go and worship other gods.” But you and your people of long ago hadn’t known anything about those gods before. 7 They are the gods of the nations around you. Those nations might be near or far away. In fact, they might reach from one end of the land to the other. 8 Don’t give in to those who are tempting you. Don’t listen to them. Don’t feel sorry for them. Don’t spare them or save them. 9 You must certainly put them to death. You must be the first to throw stones at them. Then all the people must do the same thing. 10 Put them to death by throwing stones at them. They tried to turn you away from the Lord your God. He brought you out of Egypt. That’s the land where you were slaves. 11 After you kill those who tempted you, all the Israelites will hear about it. And they will be too scared to do an evil thing like that again.

        Exodus 32:
        26 Moses stood at the entrance to the camp. He said, “Anyone on the Lord’s side, come to me.” All the Levites joined him.
        27 Then he spoke to them. He said, “The Lord, the God of Israel, says, ‘Each man must put on his sword. Then he must go back and forth through the camp from one end to the other. Each man must kill his brother and friend and neighbor.’ ”
        28 The Levites did as Moses commanded. About 3,000 of the people died that day.

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      • Numbers 25:
        1. Israel was staying in Shittim. The men of Israel began to commit sexual sins with the women of Moab. 2. The women invited the men to feasts and sacrifices to honor their gods. The people ate the sacrifices and bowed down in front of the statues of those gods. 3. So Israel joined in worshiping the god named Baal that was worshiped at Peor. The Lord became very angry with Israel.

        4. The Lord said to Moses, “Take all the leaders of these people. Kill them. Put their dead bodies out in the open. I want to see you do it in the middle of the day. Then I will not be angry with Israel.”

        5. So Moses spoke to Israel’s judges. He said, “Some of your people have joined in worshiping the god named Baal that is worshiped at Peor. Each of you must kill the people in your tribe who have done that.”

        6. Then an Israelite man brought into the camp a Midianite woman. He did it right in front of the eyes of Moses and the whole community of Israel. They were weeping at the entrance to the tent of meeting. 7. Phinehas was a priest. He was the son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron. When Phinehas saw what had happened, he left the people. He took a spear in his hand. 8. He followed the man into the tent. Phinehas stuck the spear through the man and into the woman’s stomach. Then the Lord stopped the plague against the Israelites. 9. But the plague had already killed 24,000 of them.

        There you go Islam’s haters!

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  6. PAUL WILLIAMS I still call you out on your behavior towards Ken Temple

    Do you have the courage to answer?

    Or will continue to hide in the shadows, and let women fight for you? Your own bias opinions void of honest discussion is well frankly embarrassing I would think for Oxford University. You have promoted Celene Ibrahim to the front line of debate. You have made her a “casualty” (victim) of truth. I wish on her love from the God of “self existing” truth = (YHWH) and love of truth for her.

    What do you have to say for yourself? You will answer my query. the day comes! seize the day while you can.

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  7. “Why don’t you look into your Bible about it, what the Bible says about the punishment for the apostate?
    Dare you talk about it?”

    The bible has two dispensations. The theocracy and the church. They have different laws for apostasy.

    Just to say “what the bible says about” is disingenuous when discussing a particular doctrine if one makes no further distinction.

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    • I didn’t ask what you say, I asked what the Bible says about punishment for the apostate, give a verse/verses from the Bible, not from you.

      You can help your Islam’s hater friend (maybe he still busy with his bitch..LOL) to answer this:

      1. Give a verse/verses from the Quran about punishment for the apostate
      2. Give a verse/verses from the Bible about punishment for the apostate

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      • The sermon on the mount replaces the law of the old testament on apostasy. There is no violence toward the ideological enemy. The church has no mandate from God to inflict violent punishments for any crimes. In the NT the church and the state are never unified.

        To hate the religion of a god who curses me for my beliefs is the only rational response to such a being.

        As far as what Islam wants to do with apostates that is the business of those who believe in it but they may have trouble with the law of the land. Rightly so in my opinion.

        Like

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