We continue a series of talks on the New Testament with the Gospel of Luke and the Acts of the Apostles. Professor Dale Martin is a distinguished American New Testament scholar who taught at Yale University for over 30 years. See his excellent Introduction to New Testament History and Literature (Open Yale Courses) https://www.amazon.com/Testament-Hist…
Categories: Bible, Blogging Theology Youtube, Christianity, Christology, Dr Dale B. Martin, New Testament scholarship
around the 28 minute mark you quote from the footnote of NRSV “other ancient authorities lack . . . ”
notice the plural and “authorities”, rather than admitting the good evidence from the Greek manuscripts.
“All Greek manuscripts except D [Codex Bezae – 5th Century] testify to the presence of Luke 22:19b-20 . . . ”
(p. 232, New Testament Tex and Transmission Commentary, Philip Comfort) (see p. 231 for list of Greek manuscripts that DO have the blood of the new covenant.
P75 has it.
Codex Siniaticus has it
Codex Vaticanus has it
Codex Alexandrinus has it
Codex Ephraemi Rescriptus has it
all others have it except for D
The first 3 Greek manuscripts are older than D and the next 2 are dated around the same time as D.
So your evidence is very weak and Ehrman and Dale Martin’s arguments are defeated.
Luke testifies that Jesus was a mighty prophet (in the texts you focus on in Acts), but also more than a mighty prophet.
He clearly tells us that Jesus is the Son of God, born of a virgin, which shows He had no human father and the phrases about the Holy Spirit and the power of the most High point to the child having the same nature as God the Father.
34 Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I am a virgin?”
35 The angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God.
Luke 1:34-35
Also, you are quoting from many passages in Acts which in context all testify that Jesus was crucified, died, and on the 3rd day, rose from the dead, thus defeating Islam. (defeats Surah 4:157)
Luke and Acts testify that Jesus was crucified, killed, and rose again from the dead on the 3rd day. (thus defeating Islam – Surah 4:157)
Luke 23:21
Luke 23:23
Luke 23:33
Luke 24:7
Luke 24:20
Luke 24:25-27
Luke 24:44-47
Acts 2:22-23
Acts 2:36
Acts 4:10
Acts 10:39-40
Power evidence that defeats Islam, which came 600 years too late and tried to deny the historical reality of Jesus’ death and resurrection and atonement for sin.
Power evidence that defeats Christian Trinity.
Jesus said:[19:36] “Allah is my Lord and your Lord, so worship Him. That is a straight path.”
Quran = A forgery and not from the historical Jesus. Qur’an is 500-600 years too late and false writing. A mere human document.
So if The Quran is a forgery then:
– Jesus as messiah is a forgery,
– Jesus was born without a father is a forgery
– Jesus revives the dead man is a forgery
– Mary the mother of Jesus is a forgery
– Moses is a forgery,
– Abraham, Isaac, Ishmael, Jacob are forgeries
– Noah is a forgery
– Adam and Eve are forgeries.
– God who created human, animals, and universe is a forgery
– Torah and Injeel are forgeries
You mean Isa said.
“So if The Quran is a forgery then”
-Jesus as messiah is a forgery,
-Jesus was born without a father is a forgery, etc etc,
No, stories, in the quran were stories already told long before the quran, all the quran did is took the same characters and titles and made minor differences,
So the “interpretation” of how the quran tells them, is forgery,
“No, stories, in the quran were stories already told long before the quran, all the quran did is took the same characters and titles and made minor differences,
So the “interpretation” of how the quran tells them, is forgery,”
* What “interpretation”?
* Give the examples “the “interpretation” of how the quran tells them, is forgery” from The Quran.
Luke teaches both repentance and faith in Christ and His atoning death and resurrection from the dead.
“repentance for the forgiveness of sins” – Luke 24:46-47
“every one who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins” Acts 10:43
38 Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through Him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you,
39 and through Him everyone who believes is freed (or justified) from all things, from which you could not be freed (or Justified) through the Law of Moses.
Acts 13:38-39
“Jesus’ death by crucifixion under Pontius Pilate is as sure as anything historical can ever be. For if no follower of Jesus had written anything for one hundred years after his crucifixion, we would still know about him from two authors not among his supporters. Their names are Flavius Josephus and Cornelius Tacitus.”
– John Dominic Crossan
Jesus: A Revolutionary Biography, p. 145
Ken,
Selective appeals to modern historical scholarship by Christians is perplexing. Will you also accept the historical consensus that Jesus did not preach he was divine and that the gospels are not an accurate reflection of his ministry? You have been asked this question many times.
Your own quote from Crossan is very telling – what do you understand by “…as sure as anything historical can ever be.”?
How would the traditional Sunni view – that someone who was made to look like Jesus was crucified – be distinguishable to historians from Jesus himself being crucified?
Besides, are you aware of the diversity of views amongst Muslims about what Qur’an 4:157 actually teaches?
“that someone who was made to look like Jesus was crucified – be distinguishable to historians from Jesus himself being crucified? ”
Isa must have been somewhere when the mirage was occuring at the crucifixion. Surely his companions would have been with him to witness his departure. But there is just a black hole in the Koran which to me is suspicious and telling.
Jesus certainly did proclaim He was Deity, Lord, eternal Son, Messiah, etc.
Mark 2:28 – The Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.
John 14:9 – “if you have seen Me, you have seen the Father”
John 10:30 – “I and the Father are one”
John 8:56-58 – “before Abraham was born, I am.”
John 17:5 – “Father, restore Me to the glory I had with You before the world was”
The eternal Son was with the Father in eternity past.
confirmed by John 1:1-5; 1:14;
eternal Word
Creator of all things
became a human being
Confirmed by Luke 1:34-35 – virgin born
Deity confirmed by:
John 20:28 – Thomas said to Him, My Lord and My God!”
deity confirmed by Matthew 2:1-12
Magi worshipped Him
confirmed by Matthew 1:21 – “Immanuel, God with us”
Jake,
These discussions are generally more constructive if one engages with the points raised by one’s interlocutor instead of changing the topic. Would you care to address any of the questions I raised?
– “Isa must have been somewhere when the mirage was occuring at the crucifixion. Surely his companions would have been with him to witness his departure. But there is just a black hole in the Koran which to me is suspicious and telling.”
The Qur’an does not mention what Jesus’s companions were thinking about this because it does not mention a ‘mirage’ in the first place. It simply states that his Jewish opponents did not crucify him, but that it was made to appear so.
” It simply states ………..” but in such a way as to be not capable of rational or metaphysical analysis by the human mind.
The koran seems to be purposefully vague and ahistorical. To be designed for those of a superstitious mindset.
Jake,
I’ll assume your continued silence and deflections regarding my initial questions is an admission that you have no answers to the charge that Christians cherry-pick modern historical criticism of the bible when it suits them, whereas when taken as a whole, it destroys the traditional Christian narrative and largely vindicates the Islamic view of Jesus.
– “but in such a way as to be not capable of rational or metaphysical analysis by the human mind.”
Once again your inconsistency is showing. The bible is also overflowing with divine miracles that can’t be rationalised by the human mind, and must be taken on face value as possible by an omnipotent god.
-“The koran seems to be purposefully vague and ahistorical. To be designed for those of a superstitious mindset.”
The Qur’an is not a narrative-driven work, and this was never it’s focus. I can recommend a number of introductory titles for readers like you who are unfamiliar with the Qur’an and it’s message.
“It simply states that his Jewish opponents did not crucify him, but that it was made to appear so.”
A desperate last gasp solution, more than 600 years after the event, to preserve the concept of invincible and undefeatable islamic messengers and prophets.
Jake,
– “A desperate last gasp solution, more than 600 years after the event…”
Historical proximity to the narrative is irrelevant when discussing a revelation from an all-knowing god.
Desperate? On the contrary. As I have mentioned multiple times, it is traditional Christians who are desperately clinging to their beliefs and ignoring the historical consensus of who Jesus thought he was and what he taught.
-…”to preserve the concept of invincible and undefeatable islamic messengers and prophets.”
This is simply incorrect -Qur’an 3:112 states that many prophets have been slain by their people:
“This because they rejected the Signs of Allah, and slew the prophets in defiance of right…”
It would be a good idea for you to learn some basic knowledge about Islam before you engage in anti-Islamic polemics. As I mentioned before, I can recommend a number of introductory titles about what the Qur’an is and what it teaches?
I’m confused, not only is it Islamic belief that practically all the Prophets before had been rejected by their people, and that some were belied and some were killed; but it is also mainstream Islamic belief that the Prophet Mohammed was poisoned…
This is really the strangest (and perhaps most ignorant) anti-Islamic argument I’ve heard yet
““This because they rejected the Signs of Allah, and slew the prophets in defiance of right…”
“Islamic belief that practically all the Prophets before had been rejected by their people,”
I think there is a distinction in the Koran between prophets who went to believers and prophets or messengers who went to unbelievers. Can you give me an example of any messenger who went to an unbelieving people and was killed or defeated in battle after he had threatened them with Allah’s punishment for unbelief? In other words can you give me an example of a prophet who failed in his mission to liberate the oppressed?
This is why, in my view, Isa cannot be viewed as a failed messenger who failed to liberate the Jews from the roman oppressor. I am willing to be proven wrong. Can you provide me the names of any biblical prophets in the Koran who were killed by the unbelievers? Do we have their stories in the Koran? Why not? Because only the success stories make sense for an ideology whose mission it is to conquer the world. That’s what makes sense to me anyway.
Of course the Jews killed their prophets. This was Mohammed’s accusation. But he also threatened the Jews as unbelievers with Allah’s invincible power of retribution which the Koran exemplifies in destroyed populations of the past.
“Once again your inconsistency is showing. The bible is also overflowing with divine miracles that can’t be rationalised by the human mind,”
But none of the biblical miracles violate the natural order in the way that 4.157 does.
“I think there is a distinction in the Koran between prophets who went to believers and prophets or messengers who went to unbelievers.”
Here we are already starting off with a problem, you have made a whole bunch of claims based on something “you think” is the case. As far as this distinction, you’re going to have to do better than “thinking” into existing, this is especially strange considering what you said here:
“This is why, in my view, Isa cannot be viewed as a failed messenger who failed to liberate the Jews from the roman oppressor.”
Here you are saying Isa عليه السلام was sent to the Jews, and the Qur’an needed to rewrite his story because “only the success stories make sense for an ideology whose mission it is to conquer the world.”
Then here you said:
“Of course the Jews killed their prophets. This was Mohammed’s accusation.”
So are the Prophets sent to the Jews Prophets sent to believers or disbelievers? Also, if I am not mistaken you are a Christian; as a Christian you don’t believe the Jews killed their Prophets as well?
I also noticed you ignored the belief that the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم was poisoned.
“I am willing to be proven wrong. Can you provide me the names of any biblical prophets in the Koran who were killed by the unbelievers?”
Does the Qur’an tell us how the Prophets were killed?
“But none of the biblical miracles violate the natural order in the way that 4.157 does.”
In what what way does it “violate natural order”? Do you think something appearing to be one thing and it turns out to be something else is the same as, for example:
So the sun stood still and the moon stayed in place until the nation of Israel had defeated its enemies. Is this event not recorded in The Book of Jashar? The sun stayed in the middle of the sky, and it did not set as on a normal day. There has never been a day like this one before or since, when the Lord answered such a prayer. Surely the Lord fought for Israel that day! Joshua 10:13-14
What a violent ideology! Why would an all-loving god stop the earth from moving just so his “chosen people” can defeat its enemies? Because only stories like this make sense (even those it obviously doesn’t make any scientific sense) for an ideology whose mission it is to conquer the world. That’s what makes sense to me anyway.
So what is your understanding of why Jesus was not allowed by Allah to be martyred by the Romans? To be just another prophet killed by the Jews.
“What a violent ideology! Why would an all-loving god stop the earth from moving just so his “chosen people” can defeat its enemies?”
All loving God, lol. As if your god had only one attribute, namely love.
We have “thou shalt not kill” and the golden rule. Where are they in your religion? Only for fellow muslims. Love for muslims and violent jihad for non-muslims, how convenient for an imperialistic religion bent on conquering the world.
“In what what way does it “violate natural order”? Do you think something appearing to be one thing and it turns out to be something else is the same as, for example:
So the sun stood still and the moon stayed in place until the nation of Israel had defeated its enemies. ”
How is it something else than what they are seeing? What are they seeing that is not what it is? They are just getting a longer day than would otherwise be the case. It’s not as if God kept silent about it is it?
Did Allah tell anyone how he was deceiving at the time he was doing it? Why did he wait 700 years to share his secret?
@ Jake
What do you know about Islam?
“So what is your understanding of why Jesus was not allowed by Allah to be martyred by the Romans? To be just another prophet killed by the Jews.”
Well, at least we can agree that your initial premise was completely baseless. As far as why God does anything, then I don’t really worry about that too much. As long as we both agree that “preserve the concept of invincible and undefeatable islamic messengers and prophets” because it is “an ideology whose mission it is to conquer the world” was a completely baseless premise that your argument is based on.
“All loving God, lol. As if your god had only one attribute, namely love.”
Of course he doesn’t have only one attribute, but love is one of them, may God bless you.
“We have “thou shalt not kill” and the golden rule. Where are they in your religion? Only for fellow muslims. Love for muslims and violent jihad for non-muslims, how convenient for an imperialistic religion bent on conquering the world.”
These are verse 8 and 9 from Sura number 60:
“8. Allah forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for Allah loveth those who are just.
9. Allah only forbids you, with regard to those who fight you for (your) Faith, and drive you out of your homes, and support (others) in driving you out, from turning to them (for friendship and protection). It is such as turn to them (in these circumstances), that do wrong.”
I didn’t realize you had this little knowledge about Islam. Perhaps you should just do just a LITTLE research before making your bombastic claims, may God bless you.
As far as the Golden Rule, may God bless you, well check this out:
Allah’s Messenger (ﷺ) said, “Whoever believes in Allah and the Last Day should talk what is good or keep quiet, and whoever believes in Allah and the Last Day should not hurt (or insult) his neighbor; and whoever believes in Allah and the Last Day, should entertain his guest generously.” https://sunnah.com/bukhari:6475
I really think you should just try to learn a little about Islam before making such strong claims about a religion that has close to 2 billion adherents! I couldn’t imagine what would actually happen to this world if those 2 billion people were even half as crazy and hell bent on taking over the world as you seem to perceive them.
I noticed that you didn’t address that the Bible teaches something that violates natural order such as god stop the moving of the sun just so the Jews could keep killing their enemies. However, since we know it is the earth that rotates around the sun not vice versa, then the bible should’ve at least taught that the earth stood still and not the sun, may God bless you.
So, so far, we have established that your initial distinction about the Prophets in the Qur’an was baseless and contrary to the Islamic message, and now we see that your views that Islam teaches that you can’t be good to non-Muslims and that we don’t have the golden rule was also contrary to the Islamic message, we see that you failed to address the violation of natural order which that verse teaches.
“How is it something else than what they are seeing? What are they seeing that is not what it is? They are just getting a longer day than would otherwise be the case. It’s not as if God kept silent about it is it?”
I’m not sure what you are trying to say here, may God bless you. Obviously the idea that God could make something appear to be something else (a mirage like what you said) isn’t even a miracle. Mirages, hallucinations, dreams and false memories are certainly not violations of natural order. Unlike, of course, the Biblical claim that god stopped the sun (and not the earth) from moving so that the Jews can have more time to kill their enemies.
“Did Allah tell anyone how he was deceiving at the time he was doing it? Why did he wait 700 years to share his secret?”
The reality is, the monotheism taught in Islam is the same monotheism taught in Judaism. It is the Christian claim that god waited 4,000 years (unless you are not a young earth creationist) to tell us that he is actual a truine god and he is also his own father…
If there was ever a deceiver, its whoever tricked you into believing God is three entities, may God bless you.
And as a final bonus, may God bless you, here are all the times god is described a deceiver in the Bible:
2 Kings 19:10
“Thus you shall say to Hezekiah king of Judah, ‘Do not let your God in whom you trust deceive you saying, “Jerusalem will not be given into the hand of the king of Assyria.”
Isaiah 37:10
Verse Concepts
“Thus you shall say to Hezekiah king of Judah, ‘Do not let your God in whom you trust deceive you, saying, “Jerusalem will not be given into the hand of the king of Assyria.”
Jeremiah 20:7
Verse Concepts
O Lord, You have deceived me and I was deceived;
You have overcome me and prevailed.
I have become a laughingstock all day long;
Everyone mocks me.
Jeremiah 4:10
Verse Concepts
Then I said, “Ah, Lord God! Surely You have utterly deceived this people and Jerusalem, saying, ‘You will have peace’; whereas a sword touches the throat.”
Ezekiel 14:9
Verse Concepts
“But if the prophet is prevailed upon to speak a word, it is I, the Lord, who have prevailed upon that prophet, and I will stretch out My hand against him and destroy him from among My people Israel.
2 Thessalonians 2:11
Verse Concepts
For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false,
Job 13:7
“Will you speak what is unjust for God,
And speak what is deceitful for Him?
1 Kings 22:22
Verse Concepts
The Lord said to him, ‘How?’ And he said, ‘I will go out and be a deceiving spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ Then He said, ‘You are to entice him and also prevail. Go and do so.’
1 Kings 22:23
Verse Concepts
Now therefore, behold, the Lord has put a deceiving spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets; and the Lord has proclaimed disaster against you.”
Source: https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/God-Deceiving
As far as the Golden Rule, may God bless you, well check this out:
[42.13] He has made plain to you of the religion what He enjoined upon Nuh and that which We have revealed to you and that which We enjoined upon Ibrahim and Musa and Isa that keep to obedience and be not divided therein; hard to the unbelievers is that which you call them to; Allah chooses for Himself whom He pleases, and guides to Himself him who turns (to Him), frequently.
[47.11] That is because Allah is the Protector of those who believe, and because the unbelievers shall have no protector for them.
[3.141] And that He may purge those who believe and deprive the unbelievers of blessings.
[3.165] What! when a misfortune befell you, and you had certainly afflicted (the unbelievers) with twice as much, you began to say: Whence is this? Say: It is from yourselves; surely Allah has power over all things.
[4.101] And when you journey in the earth, there is no blame on you if you shorten the prayer, if you fear that those who disbelieve will cause you distress, surely the unbelievers are your open enemy.
[8.7] And when.Allah promised you one of the two parties that it shall be yours and you loved that the one not armed should he yours and Allah desired to manifest the truth of what was true by His words and to cut off the root of the unbelievers.
[9.55] Let not then their property and their children excite your admiration; Allah only wishes to chastise them with these in this world’s life and (that) their souls may depart while they are unbelievers.
[9.73] O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be unyielding to them; and their abode is hell, and evil is the destination.
[9.120] It did not beseem the people of Medina and those round about them of the dwellers of the desert to remain behind the Apostle of Allah, nor should they desire (anything) for themselves in preference to him; this is because there afflicts them not thirst or fatigue or hunger in Allah’s way, nor do they tread a path which enrages the unbelievers, nor do they attain from the enemy what they attain, but a good work is written down to them on account of it; surely Allah does not waste the reward of the doers of good.
[9.123] O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness; and know that Allah is with those who guard (against evil).
[42.13] He has made plain to you of the religion what He enjoined upon Nuh and that which We have revealed to you and that which We enjoined upon Ibrahim and Musa and Isa that keep to obedience and be not divided therein; hard to the unbelievers is that which you call them to; Allah chooses for Himself whom He pleases, and guides to Himself him who turns (to Him), frequently.
[48.29] Muhammad is the Apostle of Allah, and those with him are firm of heart against the unbelievers, compassionate among themselves;
Just for good measure, more love oozing from the book:
[66.9] O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites, and be hard against them; and their abode is hell; and evil is the resort.
[71.26] And Nuh said: My Lord! leave not upon the land any dweller from among the unbelievers:
So this is love your neighbour and the golden rule the islamic way.
So do you believe in The Quran now?