I have just realised as I am typing this that the heading rhymes – surely this is no coincidence, but a momentous sign that this is a particularly important verse to pay attention to (I am being facetious – many words in English rhyme).
Paul has very kindly said I can return to Blogging Theology (I was a contributor years ago) to highlight my latest blog posts and videos, and to try and spark some conversations about them here on BT. Paul has been very kind about my content, and I in turn value Paul’s unique perspectives and content found here on BT and on his the BT Youtube Channel. I look forward to interacting more with his articles and videos as time permits.
Please do check out my blog post here – https://steelmanapologetics.com/produce-your-proof-if-you-are-telling-the-truth-q-2111/
The verse I discuss is:
Q 2:111 – ‘They [i.e. the People of the Book] also say, ‘No one will enter Paradise unless he is a Jew or a Christian.’ This is their own wishful thinking. [Prophet], say, ‘Produce your evidence, if you are telling the truth.’ (Abdel Haleem)
In a nutshell my argument is: if the Qur’an is divinely revealed, why would God say the words of Q 2:111 challenging the religious exclusivism of Jews and Christians, given that Christians can in fact easily ‘Produce [their] proofs’ by highlighting exclusivist texts (e.g. Mark 8:34-35; John 14:6)? The language suggests not that Jews and Christians have corrupted scriptures that teach mistaken doctrines, but that they are simply making things up with no foundation.
I would be happy to discuss this topic either here or there, and I hope it is of interest!
Categories: Islam
A great question Richard!
Thank you! Also I tried to provide a short description for the Tweet but it doesn’t seem to have been included. Alas. I’m new to such things… Will try again next time.
Greetings Richardzetter!
After reading your argument, i feel that you have missed the very basic point verses 2:111-112 trying to convey. The reason i noticed that you only remained focused on verse 2:111 to build your argument without attempting to consider what the following verse 2:112 is saying. Allow me to quote 2:112 below for elaboration.
[2:112] “In fact, whoever submits himself to God, and is a doer of good, will have his reward with his Lord—they have nothing to fear, nor shall they grieve”.
If we pay a little attention to the verse 2:112, we can clearly see that this verse is categorically rejecting all notions of religious exclusivism whether they held by Jews, Christians or even Muslims. God has explicitly stated that a) a person must have faith on God, b) and also a doer of good.
So, with this understanding of 2:112, we can say that 2:111 is not about God asking some kind of scriptural evidences of religious exclusivism from Jews and Christians, rather, 2:111 is about God asking Jews and Christians to show where God has “excluded” non-Jews, Christians from His blessings and rewards (paradise).
Hope this helps.
And God knows best.
Thanks Jaseem, I agree that is the point the Qur’an is trying to make, to refute the exclusivist of Jews and Christians, and to say that a person must have faith and do good. V. 112 does indeed make that clear.
But this doesn’t actually deal with v. 111 ‘They [i.e. the People of the Book] also say, ‘No one will enter Paradise unless he is a Jew or a Christian.’ This is their own wishful thinking. [Prophet], say, ‘Produce your evidence, if you are telling the truth.’ (Abdel Haleem). Why would the Qur’an say this when Christians can indeed ‘Produce your evidence’, i.e. places in the Gospel where one must be a Christian to be saved?
Greeting Richard!
The main problem Jews and Christians had was that they took wishfully or perhaps misunderstood God’s promise of paradise to them as “only exclusive to them” which being addressed and corrected in Q 111-112.
So, according to my understanding, God’s challange was not to produce, where He promised them paradise, rather, where did God exclude gentiles or non Christians.
First, none of these NT verses say only “Christians” will enter paradise.
Second, what kind of “proof” (burhan) the Quran is here demanding from the Jews and Christians?
Third, this passage is not about the Jews and Christians corrupting their texts but about their own claims.
Thanks for your thoughts 🙂
Mark 8:35 says that one must give up their life to follow Jesus and for the sake of the Gospel in order to save it. The following verses talk about our souls, and v. 38 is clearly talking about the coming of Jesus at the end of times, the time of judgement. One will be judged based on whether or not they have given up all to follow Jesus.
This is just one verse as an example. Repeatedly in the Gospels faith in Jesus is presented as saving faith, and those who oppose him will be judged (e.g. Matthew 10:15, and Matthew ch. 23). Jesus talks above his own death as being sacrificial on behalf of others (e.g. Mark 10:45, the Last Supper narratives); if people are saved by trusting in Jesus’ death to forgive their sins, what will happen to those who do not accept this?
I’ve tried to stick to Matthew, Mark and Luke, as Muslims often do not like John’s Gospel. But this would have been part of the Gospel collection held by Christians of Muhammad’s time. John’s Gospel is even clearer in saying:
’16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.’ (John 3:16-18, NIV).
Those who do not believe in Jesus will perish, and stand condemned.
As to your second point about what kind of ‘proof’:
The Qur’an repeatedly thinks that divine revelation is the best basis upon which humans should base their beliefs. I assume you would not disagree with this? And so if Christians can appeal to their Gospel, which the Qur’an affirms is reliable (I know this is a huge topic where we will probably disagree), then they have a good ‘proof’ to bring forward. As an analogy, in Q 3:93 the bringing of scripture is a proof:
’93 Except for what Israel made unlawful for himself, all food was lawful to the Children of Israel before the Torah was revealed.a Say, ‘Bring the Torah and read out [the relevant passage] if you are telling the truth. 94 Those who persist in making up lies and attributing them to God after this are the wrongdoers.’ (Abdel Haleem translation)
Notice the contrast between appealing to scripture (‘Bring the Torah and read it out if you are telling the truth’) and those who simply are ‘making up lies’. This challenge assumes the Torah is accurate. I believe the same thing is going on in Q 2:111.
For my claim that the Qur’an affirms the reliability of the Torah and the Gospel, I refer you to the index of blogs here – https://steelmanapologetics.com/blog-index/ , and the chapter heading ‘The Qur’an affirms the Bible’s reliability’
Q 2:111 – ‘They [i.e. the People of the Book] also say, ‘No one will enter Paradise unless he is a Jew or a Christian.’ This is their own wishful thinking. [Prophet], say, ‘Produce your evidence, if you are telling the truth.’ (Abdel Haleem)
The Quran is being rhetorical. If only Jews and Christians can enter Paradise, then Abraham is not in Paradise because he was neither a Jew nor a Christian.
I agree Kmak.
Interesting point, that hadn’t occured to me. Your suggestion would fit well with Q 3:67: ‘Abraham was neither a Jew nor a Christian. He was upright and devoted to God, never an idolater’.
Q 2:111, however, never says that it’s talking about Abraham. If the Qur’an means this, it is rather unclear. Muhammad is responding to Jews and Christians in his audience, who are disputing who in the present time may enter paradise. This is confirmed by v. 112, which contradicts the Jews and Christians by saying that in fact whoever does good will enter paradise.
Given that the context seems to be about Jews and Christians in Muhammad’s time disputing who can enter heaven, it is odd that the Qur’an would challenge them ‘Produce your evidence, if you are telling the truth’. Christians could then point to exclusivist passages in the Gospels, as I’ve mentioned.
If the Qur’an is joining into this debate by saying ‘You say NO ONE will enter Paradise unless he is a Jew or a Christian, and yes you have Gospel verses you can produce saying one must be a Christian to be saved, my point is that Abraham centuries ago (before the Gospels were written) entered heaven, so HAH, one doesn’t need to be a Christian!’, this is both very unclearly stated and also a bad argument. The fact that Abraham entered heaven centuries before Christ doesn’t at all refute the Christian argument that once Christ has come, died a sacrificial death, and the Gospel gone out to the world, that people must accept the Gospel.
The focus of Q 2:111 is also not about the Christians ignoring something in the OT (that Abraham wasn’t a Christian), but is actively asking them to produce something in support of their position (which they can easily do). It’s as if the Qur’an here isn’t aware that there are exclusivist texts for Christians to point to, otherwise it wouldn’t be phrased like this.
You may not be convinced, but if you’re right that Q 2:111 is about Abraham, then I find it hard to believe that God is arguing in an unclear and unconvincing manner. If the Qur’an were from Muhammad and he wasn’t expressing himself well here, then yes maybe it’s about Abraham. But I prefer to think the Qur’an makes good arguments than that it makes bad arguments.
PS: No offence is intended by this, but I have to speak frankly so my objection can actually be understood.
Hi Richard,
How come Abraham is not a Christian? When he met Jesus. “Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.”
John 8:56 NKJV
He sounds like a follower of Christ. A Christian is a follower of Christ.
One more question Richard,
And do you believe the appearance of God on earth in the Old Testament was Jesus?
Hi Turbo,
I was conceding for the sake of argument that Abraham was not in any way a Christian. As a Christian I would say that Abraham and all OT believers believed in the revelation that was given to them, which is in harmony with what would later be revealed with the coming of Christ. The exact amount of knowledge they had, and exactly what John 8:56 means, could be debated. Can one call Abraham a Christian because he believed in the foundational promise that through his descendants blessing would come to the world, or even because he during his lifetime had a vision of the coming of Christ? Sure, one could, but it’s not a hill I would die on.
I do believe that OT appearances of God were indeed Jesus, yes
I do believe that OT appearances of God were indeed Jesus, yes
😳
Hi there,
The idea of Jesus as being the Angel of the LORD in the OT is an ancient one, going back at least as far as Justin Martyr in the 2nd century. For an introduction to this topic, Anthony Rogers talks a lot about this –
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fps46k4hsRE
Best wishes,
Richard
🤦🏽
Zetter: Given that the context seems to be about Jews and Christians in Muhammad’s time disputing who can enter heaven, it is odd that the Qur’an would challenge them ‘Produce your evidence, if you are telling the truth’. Christians could then point to exclusivist passages in the Gospels, as I’ve mentioned.
As I said, the challenge is rhetorical as is much of the Quranic polemics on Judaism and Christianity. Even if you skip the example of Abraham, the challenge can be read as follows, ‘Where is your proof that only Jews and Christians go to Paradise? Did a (dead) Jew or Christian communicate with you from Paradise? Otherwise, it’s all wishful thinking.’
In this vein, can you prove, for example, that Nabeel Qureshi is in Paradise right now?
Rhetoric is fine, and the Qur’an obviously is engaged in rhetoric and polemic. But often when people appeal to ‘rhetoric’ I feel like it’s a way to excuse bad or unclear argumentation. Wouldn’t God’s literal speech use ‘good’ rhetoric, in terms of substance and clarity?
I can even accept that ‘rhetoric’ might allow God’s speech to exagerrate or mock an opponents point of view to point out how ridiculous it is (e.g. Q 5:75 pointing out that Jesus ate food; not a very logical argument, but emotionally charged to many). But at least in Q 5:75 the point of the rhetoric comes across; what is actually being said is clear, even if the argument is dubious. The thing about Q 2:111 is that it just doesn’t sound like its talking about Abraham, and its challenge to produce proof is bizarre given that Christians can do this. Surely God knows that Christians will reply with puzzlement that they’re just following what the Gospel says? I just don’t think the rhetoric is clear or well-worded if it’s about Abraham.
I feel your next suggestion doesn’t address the point about the Qur’an explicitly saying ‘Produce your truth’ (similar to Q 3:93). The issue isn’t whether someone has communicated with them from the dead, it’s what their scripture says.
By logical deduction yes – the NT, inc. the Gospels, say Christians go to heaven. Nabeel was a Christian. So yes he’s in paradise/heaven.
Zetter: Rhetoric is fine, and the Qur’an obviously is engaged in rhetoric and polemic. But often when people appeal to ‘rhetoric’ I feel like it’s a way to excuse bad or unclear argumentation. Wouldn’t God’s literal speech use ‘good’ rhetoric, in terms of substance and clarity?
Yeah, because if anyone knows rhetoric it’s some random guy on the internet with a polemical agenda. If the subjects of 2.111 understood the challenge as anything other than rhetorical, why didn’t they simply point to the so-called exclusivist passages in the Bible?
Zetter: By logical deduction yes – the NT, inc. the Gospels, say Christians go to heaven. Nabeel was a Christian. So yes he’s in paradise/heaven.
Did Nabil communicate with you from Paradise? No. Did you go to Paradise to find out? No. If only Jews can go to Paradise, then Nabil is not in Paradise. If only Christians can go to Paradise, then Abraham is not in Paradise. At the end of the day, you have no hard evidence.
‘Yeah, because if anyone knows rhetoric it’s some random guy on the internet with a polemical agenda.’ Two can play that game – you can say I’m polemical against Islam, I can say you’re polemical against Christianity. This gets us nowhere, let’s not focus on who I am or who you are.
‘If the subjects of 2.111 understood the challenge as anything other than rhetorical, why didn’t they simply point to the so-called exclusivist passages in the Bible?’ – they may well have done. The Qur’an doesn’t record all of the reactions of those who disagreed with the Qur’an. It records some of their objections, not necessarily all of them, and I’m not aware of any responses to the Qur’an’s responses that are preserved.
What people had to do before the church came in to existence is irrelevant.
The Christians in the text are not talking about the past. Everything in the text is in the present tense.
Lets not start to redefine the word Christian. It refers to people who lived after the church was formed and practised the rituals of the Christian faith.
“. . . 70 or so verses which I’ve come across which I believe suggest that the Qur’an is affirming the reliability of the Torah and the Gospel.”
Richard is right – all the Muslims here need to also go and see the spreadsheet at his site that has 70 verses of the Qur’an that affirm the reliability of the Torah and the Gospel.
https://steelmanapologetics.com/quran-verses-affirming-the-reliability-of-the-torah-and-the-gospel/
Glad you appreciated this Ken. If you go back and refresh the page I’ve just added an update about the appendix in Martin Whittingham’s new book, which I think will be of interest. He lists 101 verses with a positive attitude towards the Bible, and 16 where ‘Some form of corruption [is] assumed’. Looking at the 16, most of them are about concealing and a couple oral corruption, all of which to my mind suggests the textual reliability of the Torah and the Gospel.
Indeed, the Qur’an never says the text of the Bible was completely corrupted and lost.
The verses Muslims use to claim that do not say that.
Those verses are talking about oral interpretations / hearsay, and groups that go apart and write things and claim that it is from God.
https://apologeticsandagape.wordpress.com/2019/06/03/context-of-surah-279-is-278-and-275/
“Even if you skip the example of Abraham, the challenge can be read as follows, ‘Where is your proof that only Jews and Christians go to Paradise? Did a (dead) Jew or Christian communicate with you from Paradise? Otherwise, it’s all wishful thinking.’ ”
Was the writer of the Koran expecting some empirical evidence? If so why would need revelation in the first place?
Paradise created by God
Who was that God?
Was Jesus that God?
Christians might have a slightly different concept of Paradise, but putting that aside, the Triune God (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) created all things
According to you (Christians) The God of Adam, Abraham and all prophets is The Triune God (Father, Son and Holy Spirit)?
And they say, “None will enter Heaven unless he is a Jew or a Christian.” These are their wishes. Say, “Produce your proof, if you are truthful.”
No answer?
and Quran is right!
Yes, the God of Adam, Abraham and all the prophets is Triune.
Then Produce your proof, if you are truthful
Produce my proof about the Trinity? I don’t think that’s what the verse is challenging me to do. It’s about who gets to go to Paradise
The God of Abraham created paradise/heaven, if Christian trinitarian claimed to be lineage from Abraham’s faith then they must worship only The God of Abraham not other.
That’s the first thing the verse ask you to prove if you want to enter His paradise/heaven.
For the God of Abraham and who that is, check out the Bible verses about the Angel of the LORD in the Old Testament – https://youtu.be/Fps46k4hsRE
Notice also the Spirit of God in Genesis 1:2 – https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+1%3A2&version=NIV
The Trinity is in the Old Testament!
😂😂
The Spirit of God is not God.
The Words of God is not God.
The Angel of God is not God.
The Creation of God is not God.
The God of Abraham is straightforward.
If He says One that’s mean One, if He says Three that’s mean Three.
If He says I am the one and only God that’s mean He is the one and only God, no others gods except Him.
If you want to use OT then Isaiah 43:10-11, Deuteronomy 4:35,39, Numbers 23:19, Hosea 11:9, are the clear cut who is He.
If The God of Abraham is a Triune, He will say in a clear cut : I am a Triune God or I am One in three persons God or something like that in a clear cut.
According to Quran The Triune God is not The God of Abraham.
I can account for your verses in my worldview by saying that although God is three persons (Father, Son and Spirit), he is one in being. The Father, Son and Spirit are united in their essence.
How do you explain verses about the Angel of the LORD? How do you explain Genesis 1:2 and other passages that talk about the Spirit of God?
If we’re talking about the OT view of God, we must account for all of the verses, not only some of them.
If we are talking about the OT, we are talking about The God of Abraham, no other gods except the God of Abraham. He is the one and only God, no others gods except Him.
If The God of Abraham is Triune God, the first thing he will say “I am Triune God” or “I am God in three persons Father, Son and Spirit” or something like that, but no, He never said that.
He will explain in the first place in a clear cut so no one will argue about it.
The God of Abraham is straightforward. The God of Abraham says in Isaiah 43:10-11, why didn’t He say like you say ? Because He is One not Triune.
Isaiah 43:
10.
“People of Israel, you are my witnesses,” announces the Lord.
“I have chosen you to be my servant.
I wanted you to know me and believe in me.
I wanted you to understand that I am the one and only God.
Before me, there was no other god at all.
And there will not be any god after me.
11.
I am the one and only Lord.
I am the only one who can save you.
Absolutely, amen. I agree with those passages.
You’re assuming that God would have to be explicit, whereas I think if God wants to more gradually reveal who he is over time, he is free to do so. I would also say the clues are there right in Genesis if you read carefully.
Which brings me back to my point – Genesis 1:2 talks about the Spirit of God. What or who do you think this is?
I didn’t assuming but sure, like you said if God wanted to more gradually reveal himself overtime as Triune God, He would explicitly say I am The God of Abraham I am Triune God in the time of Moses or Jesus or Muhammad. But no, He always says I am one and only God no other gods beside me.
Regarding The Spirit of God I already answered above, The Spirit of God is not God. It was creation of God, it could be an angel or something else but for sure its God’s creation but not god.
Yes God says he is the one and the only God, and there are indeed no other Gods. But this is in the context of the OT talking about the Spirit of God, and the Angel of the LORD. We have to understand God being one in that context.
Ezekiel 2:2 ‘2 Then the Spirit entered me when He spoke to me, and set me on my feet; and I heard Him who spoke to me.’ Do angels enter into people? And in Genesis 1:2, before God has begun creating, the Spirit already exists. Only God exists at that point.
In Ezekiel 2:2 that was an angel Gabriel (Jibreel) bringing the message from The God of Abraham to prophet Ezekiel.
“Do angels enter into people?”
Yes, angel is a kind of spirit, they can enter into human body, many times angel appeared to prophets of God as a man, God give them human body, even devil can enter human body so that human become possessed.
“in Genesis 1:2, before God has begun creating, the Spirit already exists.”
No, “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth” and then “Spirit of God was hovering over the waters”. (spirit of god without a body)
Our soul is a spirit of god inside a body.
Genesis 2:7 Then the Lord God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being. (God put his spirit into Adam)
Ezekiel 37:14 – I will put my Spirit in you. And you will live again. (God put his spirit into dead body).
God can create spirit anytime, He just ‘breathe/blow’ to create it.
Spirit of God is not God.
There is a difference between an angel appearing as a man (we all agree on this) and angels entering into other people. Can you show me where this happens either in the Bible or in the Qur’an?
Can you also show me where in the Bible it says that the Spirit is an angel, e.g. the angel Gabriel?
The devil (Iblis) can appear as a man, he also can enter into people likewise the angel can appear as a man
and if God command him to enter into people he would do it.
No record either in the Bible or Quran God command an angel to enter into people but if God command him to do it he would do it.
I already told you that the Spirit of God could be anything, it could be an angel, our soul or something else, is up to God where He wants to put it.
The point here is The Spirit of God is not God that the one Trinitarian claimed it to be God.
Regarding the name of angels, in Islam Jibreel is an angel who bring the message from The God of Abraham to His prophet. Maybe you have different name in the Bible about him.
But as you say, neither Bible nor Qur’an talks about angels entering into people. And so it’s not a natural way to interpret Ezekiel 2:2 to be referring to Gabriel or an angel.
If you let the Old Testament speak on its own terms, you conclude that the Spirit of God is in some way related to God. Jews and Christians agree on this. Jews might speak more about it as an impersonal force or something, but it’s still the impersonal force of God, not an angel. I feel like you’re approaching the OT with an Islamic lens, which no one could have done before 600 AD.
Ezekiel 2 is about The God of Abraham sending His message to His prophet through His spirit, like I said it could be an angel or something else but not God, that’s the point.
Look carefuly : 1 “Then He said to me, “Son of man, stand on your feet, and I will speak with you.” 2 And as He spoke to me the Spirit entered me and set me on my feet; and I heard Him speaking to me.
Ezekiel didn’t say “as HE spoke to me HE entered me” but he said “as HE spoke to me the SPIRIT entered me”.
That’s mean another spirit entered him to helped him to stood up. And who wanted to speak with him? The first spirit so he continued delivering the messages from God to him (Ezekiel).
In Islam the spirit who has a job for sending message to God’s prophet is an angel Jibreel (Gabriel).
That also what was happened in creation of Jesus, The God of Abraham put His spirit into Mary’s womb through an angel.
The Spirit of God is not God
Jesus is not God.
So in Abraham’s faith there is no Triune God.
(Apologize my english, I am not a native english. Hope you understand my writing.)
Hi Sam,
Your English is great, don’t worry about that 🙂
If you want to say that an angel is speaking to Ezekiel, that’s fine, but it still says ‘The Spirit came into me’. And nowhere in the Bible or the Qur’an does it say that angels enter into people.
Perhaps another verse would be more helpful. Psalm 104:30 –
30
When you send your Spirit,
they are created,
and you renew the face of the ground.
Does the angel Gabriel create and bring life?
Job 33:4
The Spirit of God has made me;
the breath of the Almighty gives me life.
Does an angel make human beings? Notice the parallel – the Spirit of God is associated in the first part of the parallel with the breath of the Almighty in the second.
I think you still didn’t get it.
There are 2 spirits:
– First spirit is the one who ask Ezekiel to stand up because he wants to speak with him to deliver the message from God, therefore this spirit is an angel (messenger).
– Second spirit is the one who enter into Ezekiel and help him stand up, we can just call him a spirit of God (because no record in the Bible and the Quran an angel enter into human)
But still they are not God
Ah okay, thank you for clarifying.
So as for the second spirit, you have just accepted it is not an angel, ‘because no record in the Bible and the Quran an angel enter in human’. If its not an angel, what is it? You have said yourself, ‘a spirit of God’. How can a spirit of God not be God?
You’re welcome.
Again I have to tell you that spirit of God could be anything, it’s up to God where He wants to put it.
If He put his spirit in our body then it become our soul and become a human.
Or He wants to make his spirit to become an angel, animal,
Or God just create his spirit but He doesn’t put in any thing, it just a spirit but still obeying God’s command.
All is up to God.
Spirit of God is not God.
Ah okay I see. But where does the Old Testament say this is a CREATED spirit? It doesn’t. As far back as Genesis 1:2 the Spirit just exists, it’s just always there. It gives life (Psalm 104:30; Job 33:4) and is spoken of in relation to God (Job 33:4).
If you don’t want to use “CREATED” is fine, the point is God make it exist
Our soul is the spirit of God, He make it exist and he put it in our body and we become a living being.
The spirit of God can’t be exist if God doesn’t make it exist.
In Psalm 104:30 and Job 33:4 God give His power to the spirit/angel to make it happen.
And also God can give His power to his prophets like Ezekiel, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad.
How it works? it’s explained in Ezekiel 37:1-14.
Again:
The Spirit of God is not God
Jesus is not God
The God of Abraham is the one only God, not The Triune God.
Similar to Ezekiel also God give his power to Abraham in Quran 2:260
‘If you don’t want to use “CREATED” is fine, the point is God make it exist’ – but where does the OT say that that God made his Spirit to exist? Or that ‘God give His power to the spirit/angel to make it happen’ – where does it say this?
Did you read Ezekiel 37:1-14?
Yep, where in Ezekiel 37:1-14 does it say that the Spirit is created?
No worries.
Ezekiel 37:
5. …..“I will put breath in you. Then you will come to life again. ( was the breath there? No, God created it / made it exist)
6. I will attach tendons to you. ( was the tendons there? No, God created it / made it exist)
I will put flesh on you. ( was the flesh there? No, God created it / made it exist)
I will cover you with skin. ( was the skin there? No, God created it / made it exist)
14. I will put my Spirit in you. And you will live again. ( was the spirit there? No, God created it / made it exist).
Well hold on, it’s saying the Spirit will come and be within them. That doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist before. Christians talk about the Holy Spirit coming and dwelling within us, but that doesn’t mean we don’t believe the Spirit is eternal – it’s just that it wasn’t always within us, and then at some point it was.
Also the whole thing is a metaphor btw about how God will restore Israel. Therefore I think you might be taking quite literally a symbolic passage. But even if you want to take it literally, it doesn’t say God ‘created/made the Spirit exist’
– “it’s saying the Spirit will come and be within them.”
It doesn’t say that in NIRV
– “it doesn’t say God ‘created/made the Spirit exist’”
Yes, God also doesn’t say ‘created/made the tendons exist’”
Yes, God also doesn’t say ‘created/made the flesh exist’”
Yes, God also doesn’t say ‘created/made the skin exist’”
How?
Sorry for the late reply Sam, thank you for your patience.
In the version you created it says ‘I will put my Spirit in you.’
You’re right that it doesn’t say ‘made the tendons exist’, but the point is the passage doesn’t say either way – it’s not saying for any of these things ‘created/made the tendons exist’. You have to look at other passages to see whether these are created things or non-created things. And the Spirit of God exists before this, e.g. 1 Samuel 11:6.
No problem. No time limit.
– “the passage doesn’t say either way”
-“You have to look at other passages to see whether these are created things or non-created things.”
Which one is “created things or non-created things”?
Ok, according to your statements no one created tendon, flesh, skin and the spirit of God.
So all of them are exist before this because God never say “created” them.
Well it’s very clear and obvious from human reality and from elsewhere in the Bible that things like tendon and flesh are created. But scripture doesn’t say the Spirit of God is created – the Spirit just seems to exist throughout the Old Testament, e.g. 1 Samuel 11:6.
– “scripture doesn’t say the Spirit of God is created”
Where is scripture saying that tendon, flesh and skin are created by God?
Scripture is clear that man’s physical body is created (e.g. Genesis 2:7). It’s abundantly clear in the OT that new human beings are created when men and women have sex (I can give you references but I don’t think I need them). By contrast it doesn’t say the Spirit of God is created.
I think you are contradictive yourself.
Ok, now do you agree that God created all of these things?
Ezekiel 37:
5. …..“I will put breath in you. Then you will come to life again. ( was the breath there? No, God created it / made it exist)
6. I will attach tendons to you. ( was the tendons there? No, God created it / made it exist)
I will put flesh on you. ( was the flesh there? No, God created it / made it exist)
I will cover you with skin. ( was the skin there? No, God created it / made it exist)
But that passage doesn’t say the Spirit is created. Whereas when Scripture talks about the BODY of man, it explicitly says that Adam’s body was formed from the ground (Genesis 2:7) and that people are born from their parents. But it doesn’t say that the Spirit comes into being.
I don’t think I’m contradicting myself, but if you do, then okay, let’s agree to disagree 🙂
Please don’t say I’m not telling the truth. I’m telling the truth as best as I can see it.
Please read carefully.
Again, the passage also doesn’t say tendons, flesh and skin are created but actually they are created.
See how God uses the words:
“I will put breath in you”
“I will attach tendons to you”
“I will put flesh on you”
“I will cover you with skin”
Nothing of them are using word “created ” but actually they are created.
If God says want to create a human, of course He wants to create a living human (body + spirit) not a dead human nor just a body.
The difference is how they are created:
– a body is created by forming it from the dust of the ground.
– a spirit is created by the breath of His mouth.
(Also the stars are created by the breath of His mouth (Psalm 33:6))
Genesis 2:7: (NIRV)
Then the Lord God formed a man:
– He made him out of the dust of the ground (body)
– God breathed the breath of life into him (spirit)
– And the man became a living person.
Do you see God creates a man not just a body but include a spirit.
A living human (body+spirit), all of them are created by God.
If you deny that then you are not telling truth.
Sorry, I am not being very clear. Let me try and clarify my position more.
Sometimes it’s not very clear whether spirit is capital or lower case ‘S’, so to speak. It’s not clear if this is The Holy Spirit, or just ‘a spirit’. Genesis 2:7 could just be ‘a spirit’.
The reason I think Ezekiel 37:14 is the Holy Spirit is because God says ‘I will put MY spirit in you’. This matches other prophets who speak of how after the exile, things are going to be different, because God will give his own Spirit to people (Ezekiel 36:27; Joel 2:28; Isaiah 44:3; Isaiah 59:21).
The Spirit of God is never said to be created, even though you can argue that the spirit of man sometimes is. But do correct me if I’m mistaken. I appreciate your comments, they help me to clarify my thoughts and what I am saying 🙂
Alright, I think because you are a Trinitarian, therefore in your position The Spirit of God is God.
OK.
God is the source of every thing
God doesn’t need a thing.
God is the owner of every thing.
God makes every thing.
Therefore God can claim everything is “My” because every thing is from one source – God.
The Prophet of God – (God can say “My Prophet” but “The Prophet” is not God.)
The Land of God – (God can say “My Land” but “The Land” is not God.)
The Spirit of God – (God can say “My Spirit” but “The Spirit” is not God.)
The Angel of God – (God can say “My Angel” but “The Angel” is not God.)
All of them are creations of God.
Everything we feel, see, hear, and even our dreams when we are sleeping are creations of God.
God is not spirit nor human, nobody knows what God is like but we know God exist from His creations.
There are no lower case “s” or upper case “S” for spirit, because spirit is one of God’s creation but it’s not God.
God creates spirit for human (Zechariah 12:1):
– God can say “My Spirit” (Ezekiel 36:27; Joel 2:28; Isaiah 44:3; Isaiah 59:21)
– That spirit is The Spirit of God because God is the owner of that spirit.
The Spirit can be anything, it’s up to God what He wants to make it (a human, an angel, an animal, a devil, anything life or just a spirit)
The point here is:
– The Spirit of God is not God
– Jesus is not God.
There is only One God – The God of Abraham (not The Triune God).
Yes okay God can say ‘My’ anything, but when we repeatedly see a differentiation between ‘My Spirit’ and other references to spirit, I think the Bible is trying to establish a conceptual difference between the two.
You can try and explain most things away, but if we start with how a text actually uses terms and language and work outwards from there, I think we will see that God has his own Spirit. And I think most OT scholars will agree with me on this, but I could be wrong.
It is very clear that spirit is created and God is not spirit nor anything we can imagine.
Let’s examine Ezekiel 36:26-27: (NIRV)
26. I will give you NEW HEARTS. I will give you a NEW SPIRIT that is faithful to me. I will remove your stubborn HEARTS from you. I will give you HEARTS that obey me.
27.I will put MY SPIRIT in you. I will make you want to obey my rules. I want you to be careful to keep my laws.
– See this NEW HEARTS will replace your stubborn HEARTS so you will obey God.
– And God will put a NEW SPIRIT in you. (That a NEW SPIRIT God called MY SPIRIT).
With all of those things God wants you to obey His rules and keep His laws.
All of those things (hearts and spirit) are created by God
The New Spirit is New because those people didn’t have God’s spirit within them before. It’s not that the Spirit never existed before that moment (e.g. 1 Samuel 11:6). Are you saying that God’s Spirit didn’t exist before Ezekiel 36?
– “The New Spirit is New because those people didn’t have God’s spirit within them before”
Not only a spirit is new but also new hearts.
– “It’s not that the Spirit never existed before that moment”
also it’s not their hearts never existed before that moment
– “Are you saying that God’s Spirit didn’t exist before Ezekiel 36?”
Are you saying that hearts didn’t exist before Ezekiel 36?
The point here is both spirit and hearts are created by God.
They are both new for those people, in that they didn’t have them before. There is no idea of pre-existent hearts in the Scripture, so we can safely conclude that the new hearts are created. But I have given you a Scripture passage showing that the Spirit already existed long before the time of Ezekiel. So you need to respond to that passage. It’s passages like that, and many others, that show that the Holy Spirit wasn’t created in Ezekiel 37, because it already exists
Of course the spirit can be existed long before Ezekiel. Adam also existed long before Ezekiel. The angel and the devil also existed long before Adam.
Like I said before, the spirit can be anything, it can be an angel, a human, an animal, a devil, anything life has a spirit or just a spirit that obey God’s commands.
That new hearts and a new spirit are created by God for those people for replacing their old hearts and old spirit that stubborn and they don’t obey God.
Both a new spirit and new hearts are new, both never pre-existent, God created for them.
God creates the spirit for human ((Zechariah 12:1), but it doesn’t mean the spirit for angels, devils, animals are never created although the scripture never mention it.
Again, the point here is the spirit is created by God that spirit is the spirit of God.
Every thing is from God.
But I just don’t think this takes into account that God seems to have a Spirit, The Spirit of God, singular, that keeps occuring across time and different books of the Bible. And so it doesn’t sound like God keeps creating different things, it’s the same Spirit.
God is not spirit, God is not like human, God is not like anything we can imagine.
The spirit of God is one of his creation.
He creates the spirit for human, angels, animals, or anything life.
Every human has different spirit.
Every angel has different spirit.
Every devil has different spirit.
Every animal has different spirit
The spirit that God put in your body is different than the spirit in my body.
The spirit that God put in an angel is different than the spirit in human.
God also sometimes send the spirit to the chosen people / person (king or prophet) to help him or deliver His messages or to destroy them (in Islam we call that spirit is an angel).
All the spirit are created by God.
The spirit of God is not God.
Do angels create life? (Job 33:4)
Not only an angel can create life but also you if God give you His permission (power) to create life.
Like Ezekiel’s and Jesus’s miracles all of theirs power are from God, Ezekiel and Jesus themself can not do nothing without God’s permission (power).
Mose also creates life (a snake) from his stick/cane with God’s permission.
“Mose also creates life (a snake) from his stick/cane with God’s permission.”
Edit:
Moses also creates life (a snake) from his stick/cane with God’s permission.
But you can accept that there is a difference between a stick temporarily coming to life or appearing to be alive like a snake, and the creation of a human being who will live an entire life-span? Also, the creation of the person in Job 33:4 isn’t said to be exceptional – Job is created by the Holy Spirit just like everything else is (Psalm 104:30).
Does an angel create all living things?
Alright man we’re going in circles I think. Let’s agree to disagree 🙂
Yeah because you just inconsistent (contradictive yourself), you said “Scripture is clear that man’s physical body is created ” but when I quote the verses from scripture (Ezekiel 37:5-6) you disagree that all of those things are created.
“You are not telling the truth”
“Does an angel create all living things?”
No, only God Almighty creates all living things.
Okay, good, we agree. So when in Job 33:4 the speaker says ‘The Spirit of God has made me’, and when Psalm 104:30 says that this Spirit creates all things, this is talking about God and not a created being, yes? So there is God, but God also has a Spirit.
Alright, first of all is not Job who is talking in Job 33:4 but Elihu the Buzite, the son of Barakel, the youngest person among them.
Ok,
This is the problem with Trinitarian, sometimes they only take particular sentences from the verse, but not the complete verse.
Let’s examine them:
1). Job 33:4: The Spirit of God has made me. The breath of the Mighty One gives me life
What is God doing when He breathes ? He is creating the spirit, so that spirit is The breath of the Mighty One.
Therefore The Spirit of God has made him alive without the spirit of God this person is just a dead body.
.
Now, Move on:
2). Psalm 104:30: When YOU send YOUR Spirit, YOU create them. YOU give new life to the ground.
Who is “YOU” ? “YOU” is The God Almighty, NOT the spirit.
This verse is talking about all the creatures, and God send the spirit (which is He created them by His breath) to give life to the ground (animals, plants, microbes or anything life on/in the ground.)
Without the spirit of God they die:
Job 104:29:-When you turn your face away from them, they are terrified. When you take away their breath (spirit), they die and turn back into dust.
3). Again, the spirit of God is not God.
Okay but the point remains that for creatures (including humans) to live, God must breathe HIS Spirit/the Spirit of God. You said before that this cannot be an angel, and I agree. Does God create HIS Spirit (‘your Spirit’/’Spirit of God’) every time seperately for each created being? Or is this referring to the eternal Spirit of God who gives life to every creature?
The spirit is one of His creations (Zechariah 12:1) but different material than human body.
Not only the spirit that God creates by His breath but also the stars (Psalm 33:6).
How do you think God creates the stars? Does he need to breath every time separately for each created star?
Everything is up to God, that is beyond our imagination.
And also if God wants to create something He just speaks/commands/says it.
Psalm 33:6, Psalm 33:9
Quran 3:47
Everything is from God.
God is the source of everything.
God doesn’t need a thing.
God is not the spirit, God creates the spirit.
God is not like human or living being that needs spirit to life.
God never die, God never taste die, whoever dies is not God.
There is only one God not the triune God.
Yes God makes man’s spirit, but Zechariah doesn’t say that GOD’S SPIRIT is created.
I don’t think Psalm 33:6 is about God’s Spirit – it doesn’t say the tyoical ruah elohim, but ruah piv, breath of his mouth. Which in context seems to be another way of referring to the word that comes out of his mouth to create.
None of these verses say that GOD’S SPIRIT is created. And we repeatedly find, across the centuries, God’s spirit is mentioned.
Let me give an example which might be less confusing, as it’s not to do with creation. The Spirit of God is repeatedly said to come upon people and given them supernatural ability. Check out the verses here – https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/The-Spirit-Of-The-Lord
It doesn’t say GOD’S SPIRIT but THE SPIRIT OF GOD
Psalm 33:6 is not about the spirit but the creation of the stars by the breath of God likewise the creation of the spirit. Both of them (The spirit and the stars) are created by the breath of God.
God’s Spirit is the same as the Spirit of God. In Hebrew it’s the same construct form that you would use to express this – ruah ha-elohim.
Psalm 33:6 isn’t about the creation of the Spirit. Ruah can be used in many different contexts – sometimes it can mean the Spirit of God who creates and has agency, sometimes it can just mean breath. The context determines it.
Even if Psalm 33:6 is about the Spirit and not just using an image of God breathing, it doesn’t say that the breath was created – it is the breath that creates the stars, not vice versa.
What about all those different verses in the article I sent you where the Spirit comes down upon particular people to enable them to do certain things? Is it not the same Spirit doing this to different people at different times?
Just make it simple:
– God creates the spirit
– God creates the stars
Like I said before the spirit of God can be anything, human, animals, angels, devils or just the spirit.
In your links:
– The spirit of God is the angel (Judges 6)
– The spirit of God is the angel and the devil, (1 Samuel 16)
The spirit of God is one of His creations.
Where does Judges 6 say the Spirit of God is the angel? The two are spoken of, seperately. The Angel of the LORD in the Old Testament often appears, takes human form, and talks to people. By contrast the Spirit comes upon people and supernaturally enables them to do things.
1 Samuel 16, unless I’m mistaken, says nothing about an angel. And v. 14 distinguishes between the regular Spirit of the LORD who is often spoken of in the Old Testament (ruah YHWH/Elohim) from ruah ra’ah me-elohim, ‘an evil spirit FROM God’ (the preposition me is used – this is different from the Spirit of God, where the construct form is used). There is also a logical difference between the two in the verse – it says first that the Spirit of the LORD leaves Saul, and then an evil/harmful spirit comes to afflict him.
Also when you say ‘Make it simple’ – yes, simplicity is good, but we also need to be accurate in explaining the texts in front of us. And I don’t think it’s a good way to take all of the Old Testament references to the Spirit of God and say they are all about an angel (nor do I know a single Old Testament scholar who has ever suggested this. Even non-Trinitarian scholars don’t say the Spirit is an angel, but an impersonal force).
Please read carefully Judges 6:12-23.
Whom was Gideon talking to in Judges 6:12-23
In Judges 6:12-23 Gideon is talking to the Angel of the LORD. The Angel of the LORD often appears to people in a human form that people can easily speak to and communicate to.
This is different from verses later in v. 34 where the Spirit of the LORD comes upon Gideon, and he blows the trumpet. The Spirit is not said to be the same as the Angel, and in the Old Testament they are not the same – they do different things.
?
There you go! Now we are in business.
Calm down, we are going there step by step.
In Judges 6:21 the angel of the Lord disappears from Gideon’s eyes but he is still there, he is still talking to Gideon in Judges 6:23 and Judges 6:25.
Please, read carefully again Judges 6:12-25
Before we move forward, I just want to make sure that we are in the same page.
I am calm 🙂
It’s not clear that the Angel of the LORD is still the one communicating with him in Judges 6:23 and 6:25. The way I naturally read the text, and so too the NICOT commentary. is that the LORD is speaking to him directly.
It is possible that the Angel of the LORD depart in v. 21, and then returns in v. 23, but if so this is not clear in the text.
Alright, it’s very clear.
The angel is still there all the time with Gideon and instruct him how to put the first burnt offering (Judges 6:20) until during Gideon build the altar there and instruct him to destroy the Baal’s altar and build a new one on top of that hills and also instruct him to do the second burnt offering there (Judges 6:24-26).
God send his angel to help Gideon to strike down the Midianites and kill them all, God communicate and instruct directly to Gideon through his angel.
You say it is ‘very clear’ but you have not factored in v. 21 where we are told that ‘the angel of the LORD disappeared.’ Additionally, the words ‘angel of the LORD’ are not the same as ‘the Spirit of the LORD’.
Your interpretation is possible, though I would say it goes against the natural reading of the text both here, and in the general OT distinction between the Angel of the LORD and the Spirit of the LORD/God. Even if your interpretation is possible, however, it is not ‘very clear.’
I already mentioned it in my previous comment above : “In Judges 6:21 the angel of the Lord disappears from Gideon’s eyes but he is still there, he is still talking to Gideon in Judges 6:23 and Judges 6:25”.
Disappear doesn’t mean he is gone or depart, he is still there talking and instructing Gideon what to do, Gideon just cannot see him because he is back to his form as a spirit, but still Gideon can hear his voice.
Well possibly ‘he is still there’, but that’s an assumption. It’s not actually clear from the text.
I would actually say that the textual evidence is against it. To my knowledge, in the Old Testament, the Angel of the LORD typically functions precisely to physically manifest himself to people, not to communicate invisibly. God can speak to people invisibly, or he can send his Spirit upon people, but those seem to be different.
Anyway I think we’ve reached an impasse here where we probably won’t agree. But thanks for the discussion 🙂
It’s so clear God send his angel to help Gideon to strike down the Midianites.
In Judges 6:16 the angel says: “I will be with you. So you will strike down the Midianites. You will leave no one alive.”
So the angel will be with Gideon until he defeats the Midianites.
The angel is a spirit, he can speak whenever visible or invisible.
This is happening also in Moses time when God send his angel to help Moses, in Exodus 23:
20. “I am sending an angel ahead of you. He will guard you along the way. He will bring you to the place I have prepared.
21. Pay attention to him. Listen to what he says. Do not refuse to obey him. He will not forgive you if you turn against him. He has my full authority.
22. Listen carefully to what he says.
Yes, like you said we’ve reached an impasse here where we probably won’t agree.
Nice discussion. Thanks.
Take a break boys, good discussion 🙂