1) Acts 16: 29-31
The jailer asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved – you and your household.”
2) The Gospel of Mark chapter 10: 17-22
As he was setting out on a journey, a man ran up and knelt before him, and asked him, “Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?” Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.
You know the commandments: ‘You shall not murder; You shall not commit adultery; You shall not steal; You shall not bear false witness; You shall not defraud; Honour your father and mother.’” He said to him, “Teacher, I have kept all these since my youth.” Jesus, looking at him, loved him and said,
“You lack one thing; go, sell what you own, and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; then come, follow me.” When he heard this, he was shocked and went away grieving, for he had many possessions.
Categories: Bible, God, Gospels, Islam, Jesus, Judaism, Scholars
We have debated this issue many times over the past 8 (or so) years on your 3-4 blogs, beginning back when you were with the Muslim Debate Initiative.
You have to keep reading in Mark 10 – there are deeper lessons there.
https://apologeticsandagape.wordpress.com/2013/09/02/no-muslim-can-deal-with-mark-1023-27/
You have failed to refute the plain meaning of Jesus’s words and teaching Ken.
No, you failed for years because you avoided to keep reading the passage in Mark 10.
I have read whole chapter countless times. But you deny the natural obvious meaning because you are a fundamentalist as Professor James Barr has detailed in his work.
No Paul, you have never dealt with the rest of the verses of the chapter. You may have read the rest, but in your polemics, you fail to note the rest of the passage, which answers the issues. (see my full article, above)
Your apologetics is flawed. It is easy to obey the Jewish law (God says so). Jesus was not a Christian and did not preach your gospel.
@Ken Temple
Okay I read through the blog post you linked and I must say I’m disappointed. Firstly You’re ignoring the plain reading of the text and saying its a double entendre doesn’t help and in fact only makes it worse. You really mean to say that the God of OT who time and time again asserts his divinity quite plainly and explicitly, now uses a double entendre to get his point across? Moreover it is not simply Muslims who think he is denying divinity, the man in the passage clearly thought so as well. Notice after the “why do you call me good?” talk he instead refers to Jesus Alayhis Salam as simply “teacher”. Not only does Jesus Alayhis not correct him, the text says he “looked at him and loved him”.
Second you’re point about Islam. I have repeatedly asked you what an “over riding emphasis” would look like in Islam Ken. And every time you couldn’t give one. If you cannot articulate what you’re standard for an over riding emphasis would look like then you have no right to demand that the our faith meet such intangible criteria.
Richard Bauckham’s (a great scholar that even Paul Williams admits) comment that it is “wonderful double entendre” is right because Jesus is trying to get the man to see who he is talking to, what the meaning of “good” is; and for the man to see his own sinfulness, pride, hypocrisy, and greed / idolatry. The man thinks he has kept the commandments since his youth, but he is self-decieved. Jesus is teaching that if you recognize Him as “good”, then He is God (in the flesh), since only God is truly good. Jesus is using eastern methods of indirectness to get the man to discover for himself. But he walked away, locked in his own sinfulness and unwillingness to follow Christ. Jesus is a Teacher / Rabbi also. You need to read C. S. Lewis’ chapter in Mere Christianity, “Liar, Lunatic, or Lord?” and Josh McDowell’s “More Than a Carpenter”.
The failure to read the rest of the chapter is related to “what must I do to be saved?” Eventually, Peter and the disciples realize that how hard it is for a rich person to surrender to Christ, and Jesus says “with man it is impossible” – human power and ability to choose God is not possible without God doing something on the inside and freeing the will / soul that it can repent and believe. Jesus said that God the Father worked in Peter’s heart to reveal the truth to him. (Matthew 16:13-18) God has to open the heart (Acts 16:14) Christ has to open your mind (Luke 24:45) The Holy Spirit has to free you on the inside (2 Cor. 3:16-18; John 3:1-21) Jesus says there in Mark, salvation is possible with God, for all things are possible with God. (Mark 10:27)
Later, Jesus teaches about His atonement and claims He is the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 52:13-15 to 53:1-12 in Mark 10:45.
@Ken Temple
You really mean to say that the God of OT who time and time again asserts his divinity quite plainly and explicitly, now uses a double entendre to get his point across? Moreover it is not simply Muslims who think he is denying divinity, the man in the passage clearly thought so as well. Notice after the “why do you call me good?” talk he instead refers to Jesus Alayhis Salam as simply “teacher”. Not only does Jesus Alayhis not correct him, the text says he “looked at him and loved him”.
Second you’re point about Islam. I have repeatedly asked you what an “over riding emphasis” would look like in Islam Ken. And every time you couldn’t give one. If you cannot articulate what you’re standard for an over riding emphasis would look like then you have no right to demand that the our faith meet such intangible criteria.
I have repeatedly asked you what an “over riding emphasis” would look like in Islam Ken.
What are you talking about?
@Ken Temple
Do you not recall our conversation on the matter?
You don’t give enough context or details of what you are talking about.
@Ken Temple
I’m responding to this part of the link you initially posted,
“Islam focuses on external sins and does not deal with the root sins. To be fair, there are some verses in the Qur’an and Hadith that talk about internal sins, but it is not an over-riding emphasis in Islam to deal with evil thoughts and pride, sinful anger, sexual lusts, vengence, jealousy, hatred, bitterness, unforgiveness, greed, etc.”
And calling back to our conversation on the matter in places like on your blog https://apologeticsandagape.wordpress.com/2020/07/22/the-cultural-tendency-of-the-muslim-world-to-cover-up-their-sins-2/
Ok, I see now. But I don’t understand your new question about “what it would look like”.
The whole system of Islam is a false religion of emphasis on the external behavior, and controlling that behavior by punishments in society and shame, etc. (politics,Sharia law about external things, and punishments for those who don’t submit, etc.; aggressive warfare, conquering others, Jihadism, Qatal (fighting and slaying and killing), Dhimmi system, Subjugating Jews and Christians, no allowance for freedom to convert or debate Islam, Muslims getting angry and doing riots and killing people over cartoons, etc. Surah 9:28-29
The stop motion clay-mation cartoon of the rats that Paul put up in one of his posts, was hilarious, and demonstrates that.
@Ken Temple
My point was If you cannot articulate what you’re standard for an over riding emphasis would look like in the religion then you have no right to demand that the our faith meet such intangible criteria.
The fact that you don’t see the root of sin and the sin nature and that previous revelation taught us about sin, the sin nature, inherited sin, and the necessity of atonement for sin, demonstrates the lack of power of Islam to be the true religion.
The demand is repent and believe the true gospel = the NT – be born again.
Jesus demands it.
Mark 1:15
John 3:1-21
Mark 7
Matthew 5
Luke 13:1-5
Luke 24:44-47
@Ken Temple
You’re partially right. I don’t believe in original sin or a “sin nature” and neither do Jews as it is not taught in their scriptures.
https://quranandbibleblog.com/2017/07/27/born-a-sinner-a-critical-investigation-of-the-origin-of-original-sin/
The OT taught it – Genesis 3-5; 6:5; Genesis 9 (Noah gets drunk and Ham does something sinful and disrespectful, demonstrating that even after the judgement of the flood, humans still have the seed of original sin within them; Psalm 51:4-5; 58:3; Ecclesiastes 9:3.
The Jews are suppossed to believe it; they just deny it because of the NT clarity on it, and the implications for God’s solution of atonement. Isaiah 53
@Ken Temple
That is only your interpretation of said verses. The Jewish people and Rabbis would obviously disagree.
They are not true believers in the true God; they rejected their own God (Yahweh, and His Son that He send in the flesh), so their interpretations are wrong.
@Ken Temple
You nothing to base that off of except your own interpretations.
The true Jews are the NT Jews who accepted Christ, wrote most of the NT, and throughout history, those that have also followed.
Dr. Michael Brown, a Messianic Jew, wrote 5 volumes of books on “Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus”.
Stan Telchin, a Messianic Jew, wrote “Betrayed” – his testimony of how he came to faith in Christ.
@Ken Temple
Jewish converts to the faith prove nothing. There are plenty of Jews who converted to Islam, atheism, or pagan faiths. What matters is the reasoning they provide and so far with the reasoning provided and the evidence laid bare I remain unconvinced.
But the true Jews are the ones who recognized Jesus as Al Masih, virgin born, eternal Word, eternal Son, God in the flesh, crucified for sin, dead, and risen with power from the dead, and ascended into heaven and seated at the right hand of God the Father.
since Islam accepts Him as Al Masih (The Messiah) and virgin born, but rejects all the other main things, Islam is the contradiction.
@Ken Temple
Besides the doctrine of original sin makes no sense within Christian theology. For example why are we to be punished for something Adam alyhis salam did and be have a sin nature when God is perfectly capable and willing to forgive said sin nature? Like in the instance of the hypostatic unions sinless human nature.
Even Islamic sources unwittingly indicate original sin, although it’s dogma as a whole, in the face of the truth of Christianity and the need for atonement, tries to deny it.
https://apologeticsandagape.wordpress.com/2015/11/13/does-islam-really-teach-that-there-is-no-original-inherited-sin-that-spread-to-all-mankind/
@Ken Temple
First, none of the texts you brought indicate original sin. All the texts say is that satan hatched a plan to get our parents expelled from paradise and enter earth and that humankind will be enemies with satan since the time he refused to bow to Adam alayhis salam. I see no indication that sin transferred to their offspring via a “sin nature”. Moreover you only gave Musa alayhis salam’s side of the argument in the hadith. Had you shown the full hadith you would have never made such a ridiculous argument as it was always Gods intention to send us to earth.
https://sunnah.com/bukhari/82/20
The Prophet (ﷺ) said, “Adam and Moses argued with each other. Moses said to Adam. ‘O Adam! You are our father who disappointed us and turned us out of Paradise.’ Then Adam said to him, ‘O Moses! Allah favored you with His talk (talked to you directly) and He wrote (the Torah) for you with His Own Hand. Do you blame me for action which Allah had written in my fate forty years before my creation?’ So Adam confuted Moses, Adam confuted Moses,” the Prophet (ﷺ) added, repeating the Statement three times.
Second even if that were true how does that answer the problem i brought forward to Christian theology? why are we to be punished for something Adam alyhis salam did and be have a sin nature when God is perfectly capable and willing to forgive said sin nature? Like in the instance of the hypostatic unions sinless human nature.
https://quranandbibleblog.com/2017/07/27/born-a-sinner-a-critical-investigation-of-the-origin-of-original-sin/
since it says, “go down as enemies of one another” = this shows that the results of Adam’s sin is that humans fight, do violence, murder, cheat, conquer, have wars, jealousies, hatred, etc.
It points to original inherited corruption being passed down to our offspring. Human beings are naturally, in the default position, selfish and prideful and lustful – that is why children have to be taught right vs. wrong and be disciplined when they do wrong.
@Ken Temple
https://quranandbibleblog.com/2017/07/27/born-a-sinner-a-critical-investigation-of-the-origin-of-original-sin/
And We said, “Go down, [all of you], as enemies to one another, and you will have upon the earth a place of settlement and provision for a time.”
Surah 2:36
shows the results of Adam’s sin = enemies of one another – so all fighting and selfishness and violence and hatred and murders and divorces and wars are the results of the original sin (rebellion against God).
That rebellion is passed down to our children.
That is why they have to be taught to do right and not to do wrong. Discipline, etc.
@Ken Temple
You’re interpretation is so wrong its funny. The verse is saying that mankind will be enemies to SATAN and vice versa. Hence all the sins in the word you mentioned(and did you really compare murder and wars with divorces?) are the result satans temptations. Not the result of some sin nature. The verse does nothing to indicate that you’re forcing your Christian theology into the text.
Forgiveness from the True God is provided through the sacrificial system in the OT (Genesis 22, Exodus 12; Leviticus 1-6, 16-17, 1 Kings 8, Isaiah 52:13-15 to 53:1-12) and the fulfillment of all of it through the true Messiah, Jesus, the final sacrifice.
Hebrews chapters 8, 9, 10
@Ken Temple
Your not answering my question Ken. why are we to be punished for something Adam alyhis salam did and be have a sin nature when God is perfectly capable and willing to forgive said sin nature? Like in the instance of the hypostatic unions sinless human nature.
Psalm 51:4-5
Romans 5:12
Romans 3:9-23
All have sinned except for Jesus.
Death is the penalty of sin.
All die; ( physically)
The second death is going to hell.
Revelation 2:11; 20:6; 20:10-15; 21:8
Only faith in Christ can save you from the second death which is hell.
Matthew 5:21-30
Mark 9:47-48
@Ken Temple
I’m talking about the sin nature form original sin that is inherited from birth. How did Jesus alayhis salam avoid having a sin nature from birth despite being born with a human nature from another human nature?
That is the whole point of the virgin birth.
The Sin nature was not passed down.
The divine nature of Christ protected him so that he only got a human nature from Mary but not a sinful nature.
@Ken Temple
First, your implying the divine nature directly interacted with the human nature and didn’t remain distinct from each other is that right? Second, Thats my whole point. The divine nature “protected” him from the sin nature in other words God forgave his original sin. This make a whole host of problems such as,
1. This entire notion is completely unbiblical so your basically throwing sola scriptura out the window.
2. If God can do this for the human nature of the hypostatic union why not the rest of us?
3. You still have the problem of God forgiving the original sin nature of the hypostatic union before the crucifixion. Meaning he put himself in a kind of sin debt.
4.This means God CAN forgive sins without blood as he just did with the sin nature of the hypostatic union.
Paul’s earlier post – demonstrates the nature of Islam – force and killing of apostates in their own lands. No freedom to choose religion or freedom to criticize or question.
https://bloggingtheology.com/2020/08/18/ali-dawah-death-wish-to-the-apostate-prophet-and-kill-all-apostates/
@Ken Temple
And will also criticize the OT rulings of apostasy and the new rulings for disobeying/disbelieving in Jesus Alayhis salam when he returns Ken?
When Jesus returns – that is key.
Jesus will then do just war. Revelation 19:11
But Islam’s wars are always unjust and oppressive and evil. (vs. Byzantine and Persia, vs. Buddhists and Hindus, etc.)
@Ken Temple
You did not comment on whether you would criticize the apostasy laws of the OT and the NT when he returns. You’re standard for judging what is and is not a just war is not objective and based solely on you believing your faith to be right and mine to be wrong.
the OT was temporary for Theocratic Israel.
There is no more Theocratic Israel since 70 AD.
Jesus took the Kingdom of God away from them.
Matthew 21:33-46
Matthew 23-24
@Ken Temple
Whether it was temporary or not is irrelevant. Will you criticize the apostasy laws of the OT and the NT when Jesus Alayhis Salam comes back? Are apostasy laws an inherent moral wrong or not?
They were God’s word for Theocratic Israel and inspired Scripture; but the NT church era is a different way of the kingdom of God growing in society.
Obviously, I would not criticize God or Christ when He returns.
At that point, of course, no one would.
People criticize the doctrine of hell – yet it is true and goes on forever.
Revelation 14:10
Revelation 20:10-15
Mark 9:47-48
“hell, where the worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.”
@Ken Temple
“Obviously, I would not criticize God or Christ when He returns.”
In which case you have no right or basis to criticize whether apostasy laws are a part of Islam or not. As the logic of following God’s law and not criticizing him are the same in principle. It is not an inherent moral wrong that disqualifies a religion rather, other factors must be looked at to determine if the faith is true or not.
Not true, because Islam is false as it comes 500-600 years too late and so it is right for us Christians to criticize it. It is a heresy and falsehood and the unjust wars and apostasy laws are wrong, as they are not even following the True God. (the Holy Trinity) Muslims cannot be justly executed for apostasy, because Islam itself is not true.
@Ken Temple
Your reasoning is not objective. If you want to criticize Islam then go ahead just don’t be a hypocrite about it. You have no objective standard for what constitutes an unjust war considering your own scriptures which you refuse to criticize are FAR worse objectively speaking.
It is not hypocritical since the NT gave us the proper revelation after Theocratic Israel ended.
Matthew 21 – 24
@Ken Temple
It is hypocritical since in your own scriptures you refuse to criticize similar or again FAR worse wars in the OT and the NT when Jesus Alayhis Salam comes back even though the the principle is the same, following God. Whether you believe we are truly following God or not is not relevant to the discussion of if the wars and apostasy laws are unjust or not. Let me just ask you straight out Ken, when compared to the wars in the OT and the NT of Jesus alayhis salam’s return what is it EXACTLY that you find the wars and laws of islam to be “unjust”? Again compared to the OT and the NT of Jesus alayhis salam’s return.
I think that this is the part of Islam that Paul Williams does not like, because of how Muslims have treated him at speaker’s corner, etc. – The implication of taking Islam all the way seriously in every area – Jihadism stuff. Caliphate stuff. violence, etc.
@Ken Temple
You know instead of speculating maybe you could oh I don’t know ASK him what his reason was? And if he decides to not answer for whatever reason then leave it at that. Speculating and forming arguments based on said speculation is quite ridiculous of you Ken.
some others have been asking Paul for more details on what happened to him; (what happened to his faith); and he does not want to say everything; or has told them that the post they comment on is off the subject, etc. – but he has said before here, that it is the behavior of most all Muslims he has met. (Correct me if I am wrong.) I think he said “most” or “a majority” that he has dealt with. He felt betrayed by many – Ijaz, etc. They were cruel to him – at speaker’s corner (who either support the radical Isis or Al-Qadeah types, or are quiet and don’t say anything, demonstrating an unwillingness to confront evil), and even 2 of the most famous here at this blog turned on him (Stewjo and QB).
IMO, this behavior comes from the nature of what Islam is at it’s core, taken to it’s logical conclusion – Jihadism, Dhimmi-ism, conquering, killing apostates, Caliphate, etc. – the rat claymation video of Ali Dawa was revealing. Paul put that up.
So, if Paul wants to answer the question he is free to or not to.
Paul, does your saying “I am no longer a Muslim” point beyond just the behavior of most Muslims you have met, or also to the root of the doctrines of Jihad, conquering, Caliphate, laws of execution, apostates, etc. or is it only just the behavior of most Muslims you have met?
But he also seems to want to hang onto Islamic monotheism and a basic morality of Creation ordinance about men, women, marriage, family, etc.
And he seems to want to hold on to constantly bringing up the doctrines of the Trinity, Deity of Christ, the NT as Inspired Scripture, etc.
@Ken Temple
“IMO, this behavior comes from the nature of what Islam is at it’s core, taken to it’s logical conclusion – Jihadism, Dhimmi-ism, conquering, killing apostates, Caliphate, etc. – the rat claymation video of Ali Dawa was revealing. Paul put that up.”
Firstly I don’t find your opinion mattering much on the subject. Second are you willing to say the things you say about about Islam to Judaism? Since much of what you said in complaint applies to them as well or even more so. Let me just ask you straight out Ken, when compared to the wars in the OT and the NT of Jesus alayhis salam’s return what is it EXACTLY that you find the wars and laws of islam to be “unjust”? Again compared to the OT and the NT of Jesus alayhis salam’s return.
The entire Gospel of Mark teaches Jesus is the eternal Son of God, with power over demons, risen from the dead, etc.
You cannot separate the statement out from the larger context of the entire book.
Dr. White walked through the entire Gospel according to Mark demonstrating He is the Son of God, in his debate with Shabir Ally a few years ago.
https://apologeticsandagape.wordpress.com/2017/02/24/earliest-new-testament-traditions-confirm-the-deity-of-christ-the-crucifixion-death-and-resurrection-of-christ/
did you ever be a muslim paul ?it was only game and deception isnt it ?
You can think what you like dude.
Gepeto, you’re an nincompoop, stick to the topic here please
Gepeto, respected Gepeto, our dear brother Gepeto. Please lisiten brother, write your opinion down on plain paper, toilet paper would make things easier. Chew the paper and stick it up your ass all the way in as far as you can, that’s where your opinion belongs
😱 🤣😂😆
. . . because you are a fundamentalist as Professor James Barr has detailed in his work.
That is just a way to shut down conversation, like “homophobia” and “Islamophobia” and “racist!” etc.
I agree. You’re not a fundamentalist. You’re just stupid.
😂
Ha ha
Shows you ran out of arguments
Testing
Ken’s theological debate principle is a point system in lieu of the classical wit system that requires clever remarks. As long as he doesn’t acknowledge his faults none of his points can be taken away. You should of been a landscaper the way you love covering up
😂😅🤣
….then come, FOLLOW me.
Look carefully Jesus didn’t say “….then come, WORSHIP me”.
The Mark 10 passage is parallel with Matthew 19:16-30
they worshipped Him
Matthew 2:2
Matthew 2:11
Matthew 4:10 – “you shall worship the Lord your God and serve Him only” = a claim to be God in the flesh
Matthew 14:33
Matthew 15:25
Matthew 28:9
Matthew 28:17
Jesus never refused nor rejected worship.
Yet, when John bowed down to worship the angel, the angel rebuked him, TWICE! :
Revelation 19:10
Revelation 22:8-9
Worship God alone.
Jesus, the lamb of God, in the same book, received worship here:
Revelation 5:13-14
He did not reject worship in either Matthew, nor Revelation
Therefore, in Mark also, which is parallel and there Jesus claimed to be the Son of God with power over demons and “the Son of Man who has authority over the Sabbath Day” (Mark 2:28) – a claim of being Yahweh of Genesis 1-2 – therefore, to follow Jesus is to also recognize His Deity, as the eternal Son of God, God the Son, the second person of the Trinity.
@Ken Temple
In each of the passages you’ve cited, the Koine Greek translated as “worshiped” is προσεκύνησαν (prosekynēsan), or another grammatical form of προσκυνέω (proskuneó). Per numerous theologians and concordances, this word means to kneel, do obeisance, reverence, or homage to, to kiss, fawn over, or to prostrate or crouch before.
That is the same meaning as the meaning for the Hebrew וַיִּֽשְׁתַּחֲו֛וּ (way-yiš-ta-ḥă-wū), which is translated the same way in 1 Chronicles, as worship directed toward King David:
“And David said to all the congregation, Now bless the LORD your God. And all the congregation blessed the LORD God of their fathers, and bowed down their heads, and worshipped the LORD, and the king.” – 1 Chronicles 29:20 (KJV)
According to James Dunn:
“..the use of proskynein in the sense of worship to Jesus seems to be rather limited. And there is a hint of uncertainty or hesitation as to whether this is the appropriate way to speak of the reverence due to Jesus.”
And as Laurence Brown has observed regarding the use of the Greek word “proskuneo”:
“Taken in total, proskuneo can only imply divinity if Peter, David, and Elisha, among others, are included. Otherwise, selective translation must be assumed, for when the Roman soldiers proskuneo’ed to Jesus, they didn’t worship him, as the Bible translates. Rather, they mocked him with the salute offered to the kings and leaders of their time. Likewise, when the others proskuneo’ed to Peter, David, Elisha, the slave-master, et al. they showed their respect according to custom. So, too, with Jesus.”
Similarly, Geza Vermes notes:
“The only example in which the disciples call Jesus ‘Son of God’ and ‘worship him’ comes from a late legendary addition by Matthew to the story of Jesus walking on the water (Matthew 14:33).”
Moreover in Daniel 2:46 Daniel is worshiped and doesn’t rebuke Nebuchadnezzar, does that make him God?
With that out of the way I have a related question for you Ken. How many wills does the trinity godhead have? 3? or 1?
One has to study the word in context. Matthew is obviously teaching that Jesus is worthy of worship, the Messiah, Son of God.
Obviously, the 1 Chronicles 29 passages does not mean “worship” for David.
The Revelation passages in chapter 5, 19, and 22 that I gave you show that worship is only for God and that Jesus the Lamb / Lion gets worship.
Also, in Matthew 4:10 – it uses proskuneo for worshiping God only – so my point still stands.
@Ken Temple
Sorry if this is a repeat comment. not trying to spam but the blog is very buggy on my end for some reason today.
“Obviously, the 1 Chronicles 29 passages does not mean “worship” for David.”
1 Chronicals 29:20 LXX καὶ εἶπεν Δαυιδ πάσῃ τῇ ἐκκλησίᾳ εὐλογήσατε κύριον τὸν θεὸν ὑμῶν καὶ εὐλόγησεν πᾶσα ἡ ἐκκλησία κύριον τὸν θεὸν τῶν πατέρων αὐτῶν καὶ κάμψαντες τὰ γόνατα προσεκύνησαν τῷ κυρίῳ καὶ τῷ βασιλεῗ
And David said to the whole congregation, “Bless the Lord your God.” And the whole congregation blessed the Lord, the God of their fathers; and bending their knees, they worshiped the Lord and the King.
By your standard of using the word, yes they did worship David Alayhis Salam. Moreover You forgot about Daniel and how it is not recorded that he rejected worship given to him. I am not denying that the word CAN mean worship. I am simply saying that it is not conclusive to prove Jesus Alayhis Salam’s deity and that he was worshiped when the word doesn’t have to mean that.
Clearly, Christians are not Jesus’s follower but Jesus worshiper.
Jesus said “Follow ME” NOT “Follow THEM”.
According to the New Testament, the true Enjeel, 500-600 years before the false and too late revelation of Qur’an, to be a follower of Jesus was also to recognize Who He was in all His fullness. John 1:1-5; 1:14-18; 20:30-31; 8:56-58; 10:27-30; Hebrews 1, Colossians 1; Philippians 2, Revelation 5, etc.
According to the New Testament Jesus never said “Follow them” NOR “Worship me” BUT “Follow me”.
Test comment
you passed
Ken, in this post you said, “Not true, because Islam is false as it comes 500-600 years too late”. In fact, it is well known even in your scripture prophets would prophesies about the next prophet to come. Be consistent and show me in your scripture any prophecies with an expiration date.
ouch!
The point is not the 500-600 years, rather, the point is that the NT indicates that prophesy and revelation have ceased with the Messiah and His apostles and the writing of the NT.
Jude 3
“the faith once for all time delivered to the saints”
Hebrews 1:1-3
Nothing in the NT indicates another prophet will come after NT is finished written – like in Islam, who will start a completely new religion and contradict the main doctrines of the NT.
John 14, 15, 16 is about the Holy Spirit, who will be in the disciples, apostles, and believers in Christ.
Fulfilled in Acts chapter 2, 8, 10-11, 19, 1 Corinthians 12:13, Ephesians 1:13; John 7:37-39; Romans 8:9, etc. – for Christians.
And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.
John 14:16-17
This automatically rules out a human coming 600 years later.
It has nothing to do with the false prophet of Arabia, 600 years later.
If Muhammad pbuh is a false prophet, then Quran is a false holy book and Jesus is a false prophet and messiah and all the prophets of Allah are false and Mary a mother of Jesus is a false mother and all Jesus’s miracle are false and Injeel, Torah, Zabur are the false holy books and The God of Abraham, Isaac, Yaqub is a The false God.
Congrats Ken, Atheist win!
1- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwjJbiPRHRQ 2- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JsW0vzNtcaI
@ken
You quoted from jude 3
“Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt compelled to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to God’s holy people.”
Although it has a likeness to it, a letter written by an unknown author convinced you the new testament is the last revelation. Your went to seminary school and further education than most people can handle and this is what you have to share? Do you believe any habitual liar, and have no faith in the creator?