5 Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.“ John 17:5
Except, if you keep reading in John 17 to verse five it clearly shows that Jesus was with the father in eternity past – father, restore to me the glory that I had with you before the world was created.
This shows a trajectory toward the doctrine of the Trinity – this shows the father and the Son together in eternity past they have equal glory it says and this is within the monotheism of verse 3; and so along with many other verses and other contexts that say that the Holy Spirit is a person and a Holy Spirit is by nature God also altogether all the verses taken together in a consistent way teaches the doctrine of the Trinity.
Verse 3, like John 20:17, defeats Modalism, not trinitarianism.
It does seem that the NT presents a hierarchy between God and Jesus (or the Father) whether it be in the passage quoted or in other places such as 1 Corinthians 11:3 and John 6:29 (where God sends Jesus
How can it be that the Father and Jesus are co-equal, co-eternal hypostasis where such differences are demonstrated?
Lol Kenny worships 3 distinct personal divine gods that ontologically share the same essence of divinity, where god the son and god the H spirit are functionally subordinate to god the father…. that’s polytheism in the highest order…
One is called the doctrine of the Ontological Trinity (same substance ontologically)
The is other is called the doctrine of the Economic Trinity – difference in roles and persons – a hierarchy of the Father, the Son, & the Holy Spirit. Father is the First Person of the Trinity, the Son is the Second Person of the Trinity; and the HS is the Third Person of the Trinity.
Thank you for further reiterating you truly are a polytheist Kenny.
You worship 3 distinct personal divine gods that share the same substance ontologically, where each deity have different roles and authority bewteen them! You are a pagan Kenny
20 “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message,
21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.
22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one–
23 I in them and you in me–so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.
24 “Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.
25 “Righteous Father, though the world does not know you, I know you, and they know that you have sent me.
26 I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them.”
Question, how is the glory that christ receives different from the glory that believers are given?
Especially since,
1: It is christ who gives the glory and as we know God doesn’t give his glory to anyone.(Isaiah 42:8)
2: By that same standard we also existed before the formation of the world. (Ephesians 1:4)
Because we are creatures and Jesus Christ in eternity past as the eternal Son and eternal Word is not a creature. (John 1:1; 17:5; Micah 5:2) This was the debate vs. Arianism and Arius lost and was rightly judged as a heretic at the Council of Nicea in 325 AD.
“Because we are creatures and Jesus Christ in eternity past as the eternal Son and eternal Word is not a creature. (John 1:1; 17:5; Micah 5:2)”
Well thats still up for debate Ken seeing as how we’re discussing john 17:5 right now and i showed it doesn’t have to imply divinity. as for john 1:1 and micah 5:2 i suggest the unitarian and jewish interpretations respectively. (not to mention john 1:1 isn’t jesus Alayhis Salam own words)
Moreover I don’t see how this deals with the two points i mentioned so i’ll mention them again
1: It is christ who gives the glory and as we know God doesn’t give his glory to anyone.(Isaiah 42:8)
2: We also existed before the formation of the world. (Ephesians 1:4)
But you cannot project your belief back to that chapter,Ken. it’s anachronism. Why would you lie to yourself? Be honest, man!
Jesus in that chapter didn’t preach the trinity at all. That chapter has Jesus saying that ‘the Father is the only true God.” That verse clearly defeats Trinitarian christians. That verse was so problematic to a level that Augustine felt that he had to change it, and he did.
What about the verse 5 in that chapter?
We would have to look deeper to the notion of that author. He seems to believe that it’s ok for another being beside (the only true God) to exist before the world got created, yet still that being is not (the only true God,), and that author seems to think that this sort of belief does not violet the oneness of God.
It’s not rocket science Kenny, ‘God Almighty’ in the bibe is not identified and/or does not denote a divine substance or an essence that is shared within persons, ‘God’ is not a WHAT , ‘God’in the bible is a WHO, throughout history of Jewish Monotheism, HE ‘God Almighty’is identified as a Personal Deity, Who possesses HIS One unique Divine Being that identifies HIM as One Divine Person
“Well said, teacher,” the man replied. “You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but HIM”,
LOl you erroneous eisegesis of these verses shows a trajectory towards the doctrine of the trinity not found in the bible …
Kenny, again you continue to expose yourself as a polytheist by applying your erroneous trinitarian eisegesis to these verses to presume each deity of the trinity are a divine person because they share the same essence of divinity. What this illustrates is that you worship 3 distinct personal divine gods!
Lol .. When applying biblical exegesis the reference of ‘One God’ is not defined as some sort of a divine substance or an essence that is shared within divine persons kenny lol…
HE God Almighty is a personal deity, not a substance Lol…
None of those verses in John biblically substantiate trinitarian ‘monotheism’ that The One God, HE is comprised of 3 distinct persons that form HIS One divine Being? Lol… until you biblically substantiate that HE The One God is comprised of 3 distinct persons that form HIS one being, i.e trinitarian ‘oneness’ you will forever be a polytheist worships 3 distinct separate personal gods.
Kenny, feebly arguing that all those verses show each person of the trinty are divine cos they share the same essence of divinity does not make them One God, rather it shows you worship 3 distinct divine gods that share the same essence of divinity, ….are you grasping the difference Kenny! Lol…
If Jesus is still alive now I’d like to see debate between Jesus and James White
“One of those days Jesus went out to a mountainside to pray, and spent the night praying to God” Luke 6:12
This is incontrovertible proof that Jesus has a God. Ergo he was not God. It’s that simple.
“After He had sent the crowds away, He went up on the mountain by Himself to pray; and when it was evening, He was there alone” Matthew 14:23
“But Jesus Himself would often slip away to the wilderness and pray” Luke 5:16
5 Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.“ John 17:5
Except, if you keep reading in John 17 to verse five it clearly shows that Jesus was with the father in eternity past – father, restore to me the glory that I had with you before the world was created.
This shows a trajectory toward the doctrine of the Trinity – this shows the father and the Son together in eternity past they have equal glory it says and this is within the monotheism of verse 3; and so along with many other verses and other contexts that say that the Holy Spirit is a person and a Holy Spirit is by nature God also altogether all the verses taken together in a consistent way teaches the doctrine of the Trinity.
Verse 3, like John 20:17, defeats Modalism, not trinitarianism.
Ken
It does seem that the NT presents a hierarchy between God and Jesus (or the Father) whether it be in the passage quoted or in other places such as 1 Corinthians 11:3 and John 6:29 (where God sends Jesus
How can it be that the Father and Jesus are co-equal, co-eternal hypostasis where such differences are demonstrated?
Lol Kenny worships 3 distinct personal divine gods that ontologically share the same essence of divinity, where god the son and god the H spirit are functionally subordinate to god the father…. that’s polytheism in the highest order…
One is called the doctrine of the Ontological Trinity (same substance ontologically)
The is other is called the doctrine of the Economic Trinity – difference in roles and persons – a hierarchy of the Father, the Son, & the Holy Spirit. Father is the First Person of the Trinity, the Son is the Second Person of the Trinity; and the HS is the Third Person of the Trinity.
Thank you for further reiterating you truly are a polytheist Kenny.
You worship 3 distinct personal divine gods that share the same substance ontologically, where each deity have different roles and authority bewteen them! You are a pagan Kenny
I borrowed from Rabbi Tovia Singer, he said “Fake monotheism”.
@Ken Temple
20 “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message,
21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.
22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one–
23 I in them and you in me–so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.
24 “Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.
25 “Righteous Father, though the world does not know you, I know you, and they know that you have sent me.
26 I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them.”
Question, how is the glory that christ receives different from the glory that believers are given?
Especially since,
1: It is christ who gives the glory and as we know God doesn’t give his glory to anyone.(Isaiah 42:8)
2: By that same standard we also existed before the formation of the world. (Ephesians 1:4)
Because we are creatures and Jesus Christ in eternity past as the eternal Son and eternal Word is not a creature. (John 1:1; 17:5; Micah 5:2) This was the debate vs. Arianism and Arius lost and was rightly judged as a heretic at the Council of Nicea in 325 AD.
@Ken Temple
“Because we are creatures and Jesus Christ in eternity past as the eternal Son and eternal Word is not a creature. (John 1:1; 17:5; Micah 5:2)”
Well thats still up for debate Ken seeing as how we’re discussing john 17:5 right now and i showed it doesn’t have to imply divinity. as for john 1:1 and micah 5:2 i suggest the unitarian and jewish interpretations respectively. (not to mention john 1:1 isn’t jesus Alayhis Salam own words)
Moreover I don’t see how this deals with the two points i mentioned so i’ll mention them again
1: It is christ who gives the glory and as we know God doesn’t give his glory to anyone.(Isaiah 42:8)
2: We also existed before the formation of the world. (Ephesians 1:4)
But you cannot project your belief back to that chapter,Ken. it’s anachronism. Why would you lie to yourself? Be honest, man!
Jesus in that chapter didn’t preach the trinity at all. That chapter has Jesus saying that ‘the Father is the only true God.” That verse clearly defeats Trinitarian christians. That verse was so problematic to a level that Augustine felt that he had to change it, and he did.
What about the verse 5 in that chapter?
We would have to look deeper to the notion of that author. He seems to believe that it’s ok for another being beside (the only true God) to exist before the world got created, yet still that being is not (the only true God,), and that author seems to think that this sort of belief does not violet the oneness of God.
It’s not rocket science Kenny, ‘God Almighty’ in the bibe is not identified and/or does not denote a divine substance or an essence that is shared within persons, ‘God’ is not a WHAT , ‘God’in the bible is a WHO, throughout history of Jewish Monotheism, HE ‘God Almighty’is identified as a Personal Deity, Who possesses HIS One unique Divine Being that identifies HIM as One Divine Person
“Well said, teacher,” the man replied. “You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but HIM”,
LOl you erroneous eisegesis of these verses shows a trajectory towards the doctrine of the trinity not found in the bible …
Kenny, again you continue to expose yourself as a polytheist by applying your erroneous trinitarian eisegesis to these verses to presume each deity of the trinity are a divine person because they share the same essence of divinity. What this illustrates is that you worship 3 distinct personal divine gods!
Lol .. When applying biblical exegesis the reference of ‘One God’ is not defined as some sort of a divine substance or an essence that is shared within divine persons kenny lol…
HE God Almighty is a personal deity, not a substance Lol…
None of those verses in John biblically substantiate trinitarian ‘monotheism’ that The One God, HE is comprised of 3 distinct persons that form HIS One divine Being? Lol… until you biblically substantiate that HE The One God is comprised of 3 distinct persons that form HIS one being, i.e trinitarian ‘oneness’ you will forever be a polytheist worships 3 distinct separate personal gods.
Kenny, feebly arguing that all those verses show each person of the trinty are divine cos they share the same essence of divinity does not make them One God, rather it shows you worship 3 distinct divine gods that share the same essence of divinity, ….are you grasping the difference Kenny! Lol…