The real reason for what you perceive as “the west being allergic to Islam” = is that the west does not want Sharia law, harsh punishments (stoning for certain sins), Caliphate rule, Jihadism, Qatal (fighting, killing, Surah 9:5; 9:28-29), Harb (War), forcing Hallal meat requirements and prohibition on alcohol, etc. on the whole society, Dar Al Islam vs. Dar Al Harb, etc. Freedom of religion and freedom of speech is better.
“that the west does not want Sharia law”
It’s not about Shari’ah. Actually the west doesn’t want any resistant system that threatens its position in being the leader of this world. Being in power and control is non-negotiable. If any resistant power tries to threaten this(even if this power came through democracy and the moral values the west worships), the west would simply betray these values and attack savagely to fall down that power. Pagan Arabs used to worship some idols made from dates, yet when they get hungry, they eat these idols. It’s the same concept.
For christians, and because they have no real paradigm in their religion out of its deficiency, to deal with this world, they have been like the whore spreading her legs with increasing promiscuity to anyone who passed by. Therefore, the christians who lived in Roman Empire for example had a different view than yours, Ken. They had no problem forcing things on the society. In fact, the founder of your sect had no problem with forcing things on the society. “You adulterous people, don’t you know that friendship with the world means enmity against God? Therefore, anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.” James 4:4.
I’m wondering who are those people who have chosen to be a friend of this world? 🤔
Let’s put that clown(David) aside for a moment, and let’s deal with dr. Jordan Peterson.
First of all, dr. Jordan Peterson is ignorant in Islam, and his ignorance is accomplished deliberately. I’m not going to excuse him for that because in his books, he has drawn lessons from the the Hebrew bible, Christian bible( including catholic bible), Buddhism, Vedas of Hinduism, fictional novels, traditions, and philosophers’ writings, so how could he have simply ignored Islam? I mean Islam is not a fictional writing here or there, rather it’s a comprehensive system for Life related to the body, the soul, the individual, the society, this life, and the hereafter. The history and the map of the world got changed dramatically after Islam. The corpus of writings in the Islamic communities in every aspect of this life is really huge. Not sure how someone like Jordan Peterson ignores all of that just because “Muhammad was a man of war.“!!
Second, this phenomena that we often observe in the west is really odd and inexcusable, yet it’s lined up with the western mindset. I think Karl Karl Armstrong tried to explain that not sure though. It seems it’s because of arrogance, hypocrisy, and the fact that Islam is a true challenge. It’s like when christian missionaries always find it easy to convince others, yet not muslims! Islam is a true challenge and can easily destroy the christian argument. That leads christians to be snakes and devils when they deal with muslims. The same can be said about the people of intellect in the west. I recall that dr. WLC, who wrote his thesis based on an Islamic argument by Al-Ghazali, said that he had never thought that there’s such a thing in the Islamic writings (I’m paraphrasing him.)
Third, Jordan Peterson gives himself the right to read the bible not as the words of God who cannot be mistaken, but as “fabricated stories by our collective imagination working over centuries.” 12 Rules pp.163, but he thinks it’s impossible for muslims to do the same with Qur’an? Why not? Again, I’m not saying this’s right, but I simply point to this hypocrisy that he adopts.
And when he was asked about the (resurrection of Jesus), he said “It’s an issue that I wrestle with continually because there’s much in the NT beyond our comprehension …..I don’t know what to make of the idea of the physical resurrection. It’s complicated conceptually within the confines of the gospels themselves …”
Not sure how “Muhammad a man of war” would somehow prevent him to look to the nature of Islamic teachings and Qur’an! Or at least look at them from any angle he wants. The amount of hypocrisy and arrogance is really something with this man!
Fourth, Jordan Peterson plays the game of cherry picking repeatedly. He adopts many ideas such as evolution and how should we be competitive to gain the best from the world as all animal got evolved in such a way. Animals’ brains got evolved to protect their territories and to have all the females, yet then he talks about how should we be charitable and generous to others. The transition is not clear. As an animal you want all girls, what stops you then? What’s your view exactly?
Or he talks about the principle of unequal distribution, and he tried to tickle the feelings of christians by saying that Jesus was really the Son of God by knowing this principle when he said “For to everyone who has, more will be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who does not have, even what he has will be taken away”, yet Peterson eventually wants to solve this problem of unequal distribution neglecting the fact that in that passage Jesus was not saying it’s problem in the first place! Not to mention the context in that passage was not even about principle of unequal distribution.
I think Jordan Peterson should read about the (Islamic economy), which I think it’s a subject out of that arrogant nose’s league.
Fifth, Jordan Peterson has a problem with the idea of being passive in this life. However, we know that christianity endorses such a notion about life at least in a major theme of the NT. He tried to solve this problem in this deficient religion as the following: https://i.imgur.com/rP8PrFJ.jpg https://i.imgur.com/snV6Htc.jpg
However, still the problem of christianity, that Peterson tried to solve it by looking to the matter as equations, doesn’t rely on the golden rule. What is Jordan Peterson going to do with this one “But I say, do not resist an evil person! If someone slaps you on the right cheek, offer the other cheek also.”?
Or this one “love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you.”?
I mean I wish that christians a actually believed in that(i.e. to be passive in this life and just waiting for Jesus), they would save much time and effort for muslims. But we know that this “development” which is not part of christianity as clown David claimed was actually necessary for christians to grow and continue. And If we want talk about things developed by christians anyway, the Trinity as it’s today was something christians have developed, and it’s not a part of christian scripture necessarily, so I’m not sure what christians try to say by playing this game!
Sixth, Jordan Peterson is a fan for Nietzsche, and he even tried to defend him in some interviews. However, Nietzsche knew this flaw mentioned above in christianity, and he condemned it. https://i.imgur.com/puBdSad.jpg
Then he’s just ignored the core of christianity that Jesus came to redeem this world caused by the original sin of the first man by saying! https://i.imgur.com/aaakSaG.jpg
What a cheap game he tried to play!!
Again we know that the problem of christianity is bigger than this cheap game he played, and he knows that. Christianity tells you that once Jesus got crucified, you’re redeemed, so logically the responsibilities got removed from you. If that doesn’t work, and we know it doesn’t work, then the problem is in this view this religion tries to draw. Not to mention the problem of evil and how christianity awfully deals with it, which got reflected also on Jordan Peterson’s view.
It’s easy for him to say that this religion deficient,and doesn’t give us the solution for how to understand this world and why we are here.
Finally, this for the clown and his student Ken.
Could christians apply this teaching of Jesus when the ruler is a muslim? “Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s; and to God the things that are God’s.” ? 🙂
I know the answer! It’s an answer that requires to sacrifice with Jesus’ teaching.
Thanks for all the pages to Jordan Peterson’s book. I have that book and have read some of it, though not every word. (I wish you put the page number on all of them. good on the first one – page 163, but I had to spend time to find the other ones, etc. – that’s ok, I guess.
You are partially right in that Dr. Peterson views the Bible as some kind of human expression of an interpretation of life and the soul, but an important part of western civilization. Obviously, I (and all Bible believing Christians) disagree with his mixing of pagan religions,Nietzsche, Darwinian naturalistic evolution, Carl Jung’s philosophy, etc.
All that aside, he was right on his 2 main points. 1. Islam is a total unity of government and it as a religious system. The power and force of government was in Islam from the beginning. 2. Muhammad was a warlord.
Christianity conquered the Roman Empire over the first 3-4 centuries by not having that force of power.
Islam did the opposite in it’s aggressive warfare and attacks and conquerings, etc. – Jihads, Qatal and Harb (Surah 9:5; 9:28-29) Dar Al Islam vs. Dar Al Harb, etc.
Lord willing, I will have to digest all the Jordan Peterson pages and comment later.
Just because he is wrong on many other points vs. Evangelical believing Christian Faith, does not mean he is wrong about those 2 points about Islam.
Just war principles were developed in the western tradition and are compatible with the other teachings. Christianity never teaches passivity – we are to make proper choices and actions.
“turn the other cheek” is not a blanket thing – the point is to crucify your bitterness and revengeful spirit, which is one of the roots of Islam; the heart of Islam – a bitterness, jealousy and vengeance within it. That is what causes it to keep fighting and attacking and never being able to find peace and forgiveness – because you have no redemption or atonement, therefore you have no forgiveness – only anger and a vengeful spirit, spite, rancor, hatred. Even some of the other Muslims that were here turned on Paul Williams in hatred and vengeance, which exposed the root of their hearts that is constantly marinating in the spirit of Islam.
“Does not mean he is wrong about those 2 points about Islam”
He’s wrong though. At least according to his view to this world.
However, my main issue with him is not that he said that “Muhammad was a man of war”, rather that he’s not willing to read about Islam and the prophet pbuh objectively because “Muhammad was a man of war.”
Moses was a man of war! Joshua was a man of war! David was a man of war! Does that prevent him from reading the bible as Middle Eastern stories!?
Notice that we are not talking about one of the clown’s students who doesn’t know what his bible says. We are talking about a man who’s supposedly well read in almost every religion and philosophy in this world. He’s supposed to be academic knowing his sources, yet when it comes to Islam, he suddenly & intentionally becomes like any fanatic christian whose sources are the Fox News. It’s so unacceptable from him.
And about wars, I’d simply answer him that the wars the prophet pbuh engaged with were to render the Chaos of the Being to Order (according to Peterson’s language he used in his book.) And that’s in case we submitted to this very deficient notion about the prophet pbuh he adopts.
Even his notion about the separation between the church and the state! Did he really read about the philosophy of Islam about that? No! He simply thinks the model of the state in Islam is like the medieval christian state! Moreover, in his book, he will tell you that there’s no an atheist person fundamentally because once the person believes or moves according to a view of right & wrong to deal with this world, then he’s not an atheist, so could we say the same thing about the model of the modern state? Especially that he keeps whining in how the modern state deals with file of LGBT.
But again this’s not the main issue with this man. He needs to humble himself. He needs to stop being arrogant and hypocrite. He needs to stop being ignorant intentionally. This’s the main issue.
Moses was a man of war! Joshua was a man of war! David was a man of war!
Yes, true. in fact “God is a warrior” – Exodus 15:3 – He makes war against falsehood and idolatry and “against all the gods of Egypt” (Exodus 12:12)
The God who commanded Moses and Joshua and David is the same God of the NT, and they were right for their time and context, but Muhammad was wrong – they did just war; Muhammad did unjust and sinful war, on behalf of a false god (the Unitarian lonely monad; the Al-Jabbar dictator – no love, no relationship) Only the Trinity can satisfy the human heart longing for having relationship with the Creator.
Also, he said, “Muhammad was a war-lord” – even worse than a brave warrior who defends. He created Islam out of his own mind and grabbed what he was hearing from the heretics and nominal Christians and the Jews of N. Arabia – Midrash stories and mixed it all up in confusing contradictions to the true Scriptures – the OT and NT.
The NT and Trinitarian theology were the Divine revelatory results and products and effects of the God who commanded Moses and Joshua and David, so Muhammad’s wars against the Christians and his misunderstanding and condemnation of Christian doctrine, (Surah 4:171; 5:116; 5:72-75; 6:101; 4:157; 9:28-29) makes him an unjust man that actually fought against what Moses, Joshua, and David did.
“Yes, true. in fact “God is a warrior” – Exodus 15:3 – He makes war against falsehood and idolatry and “against all the gods of Egypt” (Exodus 12:12)”
🙂
I know that! That’s why one of the earliest sect of christianity believed that the god of the Hebrew bible is not the same god of the christians’ god. Also, that’s why many evangelists of today don’t like to read the Hebrew bible. It’s against the image they know about their god. That’s why Nietzsche said the mixing two different books and presenting them as if they are one book “is the greatest audacity and sin against the spirit which literary Europe has on its conscience” as Peterson pointed in his book.
But to be fair, evangelists of today are like the snake, and they depend on the hypocrisy so that they can continue presenting their deficient religion, so you might find many evangelists who are with wars, and they encourage them. After all, Jesus is the one who told the president of U.S. to invade Iraq. They always dance with this spirit of hypocrisy which is a natural result of their deficient religion which doesn’t provide a comprehensive view to this world and its nature, and how we deal with it.
It has been narrated on the authority of Abdullah b. ‘Umar that the Messenger of Allah said:
I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah, and they establish prayer, and pay Zakat and if they do it, their blood and property are guaranteed protection on my behalf except when justified by law, and their affairs rest with Allah.
Reference
: Sahih Muslim 22
In-book reference : Book 1, Hadith 36
USC-MSA web (English) reference
: Book 1, Hadith 33
Jordan Peterson said 2 things about Islam, and he was right.
Furthermore David Wood paid his debt to society in prison And in correctional institutes for several years, and he heard the gospel, and God converted him and so there is redemption which we have in Christ and he has explained all this up front so it is bigotry and prejudice of you to reject what he says because of his past .
it shows that you do not allow forgiveness and redemption.
Maybe because Islam does not really have forgiveness or redemption.
Yeah, they are ignorant, two main fundamental things about Islam and Christian are Jesus and God.
Islam : 1. God is one NOT three in one or one in three persons
2. Jesus is a messiah and a prophet NOT God
Christian: 1. God is one in three persons
2. Jesus is God
That’s all.
If you are talking about God command this and that, so what? Did you obey all God’s commands in the Bible?
I don’t understand David Wood. If his arguments disprove Islam, why should a muslim accept Christianity as if these two religions were the only one to exist? So disproving islam automatically prove Christianity?
What about Buddhism? Hinduism? The whole muslim-christian apologetic thing is so strange to me. Both live in a bubble.
I think Gandhi was right when he said ‘An eye for an eye will make the whole world blind’.
Folk from both sides have become so fixated on tearing the other side down that it not only makes their own position seem unpalatable to outsiders but also ends up twisting them into angry, embittered, and hateful individuals.
Sometimes, in my opinion, it’s better to live and let live.
Jesus and the Bible taught the root of that 600 years before Islam.
Matthew 5:27-28
27 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery’;
28 but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
Jesus and Abraham could not have been Muslims since Islam only started around 613 to 632 AD.
To claim they were Muslims is anachronistic and anti-intellectual.
Jesus laid the foundation for NT and Trinitarian Christianity.
Matthew 28:19
baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit
three persons of the Trinity in one verse of Jesus’ statement.
Shalom aleikhem was a traditional Jewish Hebrew greeting, found already in the Talmud (in Jewish Aramaic shlema aleikhun).
Christians employed the Syriac shlomo aleikhun.
Abraham was neither a Jew or a Christian, I agree. Though what tradition tells us is that he recognized God in a world surrounded by idolatry and submitted to God. So in this sense he was a “Muslim” or perhaps better a “submitter”. In fact, surah 3:67 tells us he was a “hanifi Muslim” probably meaning a “heathen submitter”.
No Christian or Jew will disagree because that is what their own traditions narrate.
The problem with using the word “Muslim” for pre-islamic figures is that it may too easily lead to misundetstanding.
But saying Jesus was a Muslim strikes me as misleading for two reasons:
1. he was clearly a devout Jew within the context of 1st. Century Palestine.
2. Jesus of the Quran is more an argument against Christianity, somewhat detached from his 1st century Palestinian Jewish context. For example, when God asks Jesus, presumably in the hereafter, in surah 5:116 if he said to worship him and Mary besides God, Jesus denies this. In other words, he is no longer an historical figure of a certain time and place, but transformed into an argument against Christian religious practices as they later came to be perceived.
31 And He (Jesus) began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders and the chief priests and the scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again. 32 And He was stating the matter plainly. And Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him. 33 But turning around and seeing His disciples, He rebuked Peter and *said, “Get behind Me, Satan; for you are not setting your mind on God’s interests, but man’s.”
“31 And He (Jesus) began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by…and the scribes,”
Jesus prophesied the bible would be written by scribes that rejected his message. A small child would be able to understand the bible has to be corrupted.
Which comment are you referring to as
“Pots and kettles”
You don’t give enough context.
Giving context and giving a whole sentence or complete argument is what marks an educated person.
Not just a phrase.
The scribes are simply those who are learned in the law and may therefore draw up legal documents, copy the Torah, and are knowledgable in interpreting the Torah. It has nothing to do with corruption of the written law.
If you look, for example, at Matthew 2:3-6 Herod summons the chief priests and scribes to interpret scripture as they are learned in it:
3 “When Herod the king heard this, he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him; 4 and assembling all the chief priests and scribes of the people, he inquired of them where the Christ was to be born. 5 They told him, “In Bethlehem of Judea, for so it is written by the prophet:
6 “‘And you, O Bethlehem, in the land of Judah, are by no means least among the rulers of Judah;
for from you shall come a ruler who will shepherd my people Israel.’”
How does that mean the written text was corrupted? Doesn’t it assume that what they had in Jesus’ day was true? If it was corrupted why would you expect them to correctly identify Jesus in the Torah?
What it says is that those who best know the scriptures will reject him or remain indifferent.
If you look at Matthew 2 again, those who are learned find out from looking in scripture exactly where the Messiah is born. Yet they do nothing. They do not seek out the Messiah, their saviour.
Thus it perhaps communicates the idea that the learned in scripture, the Jews, rejected him or were indifferent from the very beginning. Not that the text is corrupted or that the scribes will corrupt it by literally changing prophecies about Jesus.
No,
Islam came 600 years later after Jesus , so neither Abraham nor Jesus were Muslims
Islam came 2 thousand & 600 years later after Abraham so Abraham was not a Muslim at all.
You have been schooled about this before but once again display your invincible ignorance.
‘Muslim’ in the Quran is one who submits to God – and Abraham is given as an exemplary example. That’s what the word means in Arabic. So of course Abraham, Moses, and Jesus were muslims in the Quran’s definition.
Neither were Abraham and Jesus Trinitarians Ken Lol….accordingly to Bible exegesis and definitions, you are a polytheist that worships 3 distinct personal divine deities Ken unknown to Abrahan and Jesus, according to the bible you are to be executed for calling to the worship of 3 distinct personal gods that share the same essence of divinity i.e calling to trinitarian polytheism in contradiction to Biblical Monotheism
You don’t seem to know what the New Testament teaches and that it affirms monotheism and that trinitarianism also affirms monotheism and early church is also Monotheism. And all true Christians are Monotheists.
No Kenny, you have no clue what the NT teaches about Biblical Monotheism.
Ken, in reference to the true God Almighty in the Bible, HE is referred to as One God. Can you show us where the Bible articulates HE the ‘One God is comprised of 3 distinct persons ( Father, Son & Holy Spiri) that *collectivelly* form One single divine being, in support of the Trinitarian theory of God?
Without biblically substantiating that each divine person of the trinity *collectivelly* form or comprise the One being of God, you are merely applying your own personal Eisegesis in an attempt to presume each person of the trinity are individualy a divine person, which illustrates you, according to Biblical Exegesis, are a polytheist that worships 3 distinct personal, separate deities, not the One true God
Yes, Trinitarianism, according to it’s own definition and theory of ‘Monotheism’, worship ‘One God’,
However this Trinitarian ‘Oneness’ of God is not articulated, neither represents NT Biblical Monotheism Kenny, Do you understand the difference?
Where is HE, God Almighty, comprised of 3 distinct divine persons that comprise HIS One being in the bible?
Kenny, when the man responded to Jesus as teacher declaring:
“Well said, teacher,” the man replied. “You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but HIM”
In support of Biblical Monotheism = Trinitarian Monotheism, please illustrate that HIM, the One God, HE is comprised of 3 distinct persons that form one divine being?
No.
Islam is the religion of all prophets sent by God from Adam to Mohammed and Mohammed is the last prophet who started preaching at around 613 AD and died in 632 AD.
Ken when the Quran refers to Abraham as a Muslim, it does not mean “one who follows the Shariah of Muhammad (PBUH&HF) and the Quran as the final revelation from God”. It means one who submitted to the will of God. Basically one who obeyed God and acted upon what God wills… This is the literally definition of a Muslim according the Quran.. This is really not that hard to understand man… the issue with you is you are a broken record who just repeats the same thing over and over again with out ANY proof. That is not how one makes a cogent, logical argument…
This is exactly why you fail at convincing any of the Muslims on this blog, to follow the Christian faith..
Honestly you are wasting your time and you should stick to preaching to those who are already converted.
No one here will be convinced to join Christianity from the arguments you present..
If I ran this blog, your ass would have been banned years ago. Not to stifle your freedom of speech, but out of respect for the time and patience of everyone else who reads this blog.
‘If I ran this blog, your ass would have been banned years ago. Not to stifle your freedom of speech, but out of respect for the time and patience of everyone else who reads this blog.’
I understand your frustration bro. But this blog is getting fewer and fewer visitors as it is. If I banned Ken it would be as quiet as the grave.
Paul,
You were right to ban Stewjo and Faiz – their hatred and rancor and sinful anger and behavior was obvious and they turned on you -why did they turn on you? I would suggest because their minds and hearts are so deep in the spirit of Islam that the rancor, spite, anger, jealousy, hatred is the spirit of Islam and it inherently spews forth, given enough time and circumstance.
No human being is ever convinced by arguments alone or evidence alone.
But the Holy Spirit uses arguments and evidence in the text of the new testament to bring about conversion on the inside.
Only God the Holy Spirit can convert the soul on the inside.
John 3:1-21
You must be born again.
But you cannot make yourself born again God has to do it.
For God, who said, “Light shall shine out of darkness,” is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the Light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.
2 Corinthians 4:6
2 Timothy 2:24-26
“If perhaps God will grant repentance”
The Lord’s bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged, 25 with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth, 26 and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will.
I’m not buying what your selling ken. The bible has a disturbing past of free for all killings(moses time). And jesus calling his mother woman and calling another woman a dog on another occasion is enough for me to appreciate the bible is corrupt although not entirely.
I have answered one of those several times at my blog (see the link) and here in discussion over the years. Jesus was testing the disciples’ ethnic hatred in their hearts, which comes from arrogance and pride – Mark 7:20-23. The historical even of Mark 7:24-30 follows the lesson about the human heart in 7:20-23 and the cleansing of all foods (see Acts 10-11 – “what God has cleansed, no longer consider unholy or unclean” – ie, stop with your racial prejudice and reach out with the gospel to the pagan Romans, Greeks, and Canaanites (mark 7, Matthew 15) and Samaritans (John 4), etc.
“free for all killings” (moses time)
God never approved of murder, and all His own wars are holy wars (book of Joshua) against the pagans, after the fulness of the iniquity of the Amorites / Canaanites was complete. (Genesis 15:16)
So wait Ken, the Holy Spirit has to guide one to the Trinity?
Are you trying to tell us that no matter how asinine and just plain IDIOTIC your arguments can be, no matter how illogical your arguments can be, no matter how many times your scriptural references are taken out of context, that is all fine and dandy as long as the Holy Spirit guides you?
Can you please show me the Biblical reference that clearly teaches that the Holy Spirit uses retarded argumentation to guide a person?
With all due respect Ken, that is how your argument sounds to a Non-Christian.
Now it is true that God is the one who guides people to the truth.. I will not debate you on that, but since when does bad argumentation lead one to being guided by God?
Also does the Holy Spirit also teach you to force your own interpretations on other religion’s scriptures (Such as your interpretation of the Quranic story of Ishmael’s sacrifice) with out using any of the established methodologies of exegesis that are accepted in that religion?
Also, as far as I understand, you are from the Southern States, and I have seen a lot of Christians from the South.. Does the Holy Spirit guide you all to drink beer and watch NASCAR?
The message of the cross is foolishness to those that are perishing. (see 1 Corinthians 1:18-31) = the message of Jesus’ atonement on the cross (the power of His death to save and cleanse from sin and the forgiveness and peace that it accomplished) and all that is connected to it – sinfulness of mankind, no hope, no peace without Christ, incarnation, resurrection, Trinity, etc.
Of course it seems idiotic or illogical to you and your human mind trapped in sin. Your foolish heart is darkened. Romans 1:18-26
I don’t like NASCAR at all – never been attracted to any aspect of that.
But a beer every now and then with a burger is ok and not a sin. But to get drunk is a sin. Ephesians 5:18
It is actually you and your religion who came 600 years late and later and forced it’s wrong interpretation on Genesis 22 and your religion that actually changes the stories/ historical events of the OT.
Yes, the Holy Spirit has to open your heart and mind in order to accept Christ, His atonement, incarnation, Deity, and the Trinity, etc.
But you all need to wrestle with the arguments by reading good books and allowing your mind to be exposed to the content. The Holy Spirit does not work without using texts and words and argumentations and reasons. So read all my articles on the Trinity and the books I recommend and meditate and open your thinking.
see all the books and articles I link to at the end of this article and look around for other articles on the subject. https://apologeticsandagape.wordpress.com/2014/01/18/the-doctrine-of-the-trinity-trinitas-unitas-unitas-trinitas/
“why did they turn on you? I would suggest because their minds and hearts are so deep in the spirit of Islam that the rancor, spite, anger, jealousy, hatred is the spirit of Islam and it inherently spews forth, given enough time and circumstance.”
Wow, what an Islamophobic statement! So all muslims are just ticking time bombs waiting to go off in your mind eh Ken? How about instead of playing God at knowing their motivations and ascribing it to the islamic bogyman you go and ask them yourself?
I did not write “all Muslims”.
Most Muslims are better than what the spirit of Islam teaches.
“Islamophobia” It’s just a tactic to shut down conversation just like people who accuse people no matter what racism or how much are they a homosexual agenda people who say someone is homophobic.is just a tactic to shut down conversation just like people who accuse people no matter what of racism or the homosexual agenda people who say someone is homophobic
“Yes, the Holy Spirit has to open your heart and mind in order to accept Christ, His atonement, incarnation, Deity, and the Trinity, etc”
The Holy Spirit has opened my heart and mind, he told me that I have to worship One God Alone NOT One God in three persons and also he told me to accept Christ as a messiah and a prophet of God NOT as God.
“I did not write “all Muslims”.
Most Muslims are better than what the spirit of Islam teaches.”
Yeah i bet their the “good ones” in your mind huh? Your rhetoric concerning Stew and QB has always been inherently contradictory. For example, you’ll on the one hand go on and on about how they are not practicing proper adab, but then simultaneously blame Islam for their behavior! Which is the true spirit of Islam Ken? Is it one that emphasizes good manners? or a spirit of rancor and hatred? It can’t be both. So forgive me for not taking you as an expert on the spirit of Islam Ken.
“Islamophobia” It’s just a tactic to shut down conversation just like people who accuse people no matter what racism or how much are they a homosexual agenda people who say someone is homophobic.is just a tactic to shut down conversation just like people who accuse people no matter what of racism or the homosexual agenda people who say someone is homophobic”
So are you saying that fear/hatred of muslims doesn’t exist? Because thats what it sounds like Ken. And while yes in the modern world labels of various phobias can be overused and overblown it doesn’t change the fact that on some level said phobias exist.
It is not a contradiction because you don’t believe in the third person of the Trinity, the Holy Spirit so the Holy Spirit cannot lead you to deny the doctrine of the Trinity which includes the third person of the Trinity that is the Holy Spirit.
The religion of Islam does not have a Holy Spirit the third person of the Trinity therefore he cannot by definition lead you to deny the Trinity which includes the three persons.
Of course its contradictive, you just replying to a Muslim’s comment (@ Agnostic…), you said ” the Holy Spirit has to open your heart and mind in order to accept Christ”, but you didn’t believe he has opened a Muslim’s heart.
You would believe If I said The Holy Spirit has opened my heart and told me to accept Jesus is God.
You wouldn’t believe if I said The Holy Spirit has opened my heart and told me to accept Christ as a messiah and a prophet of God NOT as God.
If the Holy Spirit opens a Muslims heart to the gospel and to the meaning of the gospel that means that they will automatically start believing in the atonement of the cross, the resurrection, the Deity of Christ and the trinity,
In other words they will become converted and they will become a Christian.
they won’t fight it anymore because they have seen the light God has open their eyes .
No, it’s not apostasy because he still holding and reading the same Holy book like yours but he has different interpretation about God. The Bible is the book of confusion.
Kenny, the god you worship as ‘holy spirit’ is actually a demon that has misled you to live as a polytheist who worships 3 distinct personal divine deities, …….
“Say: the Holy Spirit has brought the revelation from thy Lord in truth, in order to strengthen those who believe, and as a Guide, and glad tidings to Muslims – Surat-un Nahl (16):102
So are you saying that fear/hatred of muslims doesn’t exist?
No, you are correct that there is some real irrational fear of Muslims amount many in the west.
That is not me. I have spent years talking to many Muslims face-to-face and in their home, and in a few countries and they in my home eating they’re delicious food and enjoying the good aspects of Muslim culture which I highly respect.
Good for Ken. I mean that sincerely. However it doesn’t change the fact that you made what I feel is an islamaphobic statement. the reason i feel that way is simple, in the west islamaphobes have to reconcile the fact that most muslims are average good people with the hatred and propagandic image they have of them. they do this by two utilizing two paradigms.
1: That all “good” muslims are practicing “taqiyyah” or lying about their goodness in order to strike at the most opportune time.
2: That all “good” muslims are genuinely good people but are like ticking time bombs and at any moment extremism can be activated by them one day deciding to read the Quran or attend Jummah.
So you see Ken you may not be an Islamaphobe but you can still be capable of making islamaphobic statements
1: That all “good” muslims are practicing “taqiyyah” or lying about their goodness in order to strike at the most opportune time.
No, I don’t think that.
But there are SOME who do that.
2: That all “good” muslims are genuinely good people but are like ticking time bombs and at any moment extremism can be activated by them one day deciding to read the Quran or attend Jummah.
No; I don’t think that either. Most Muslims are not terrorists and will not explode like ticking time bombs; but there are SOME that have done that.
But all people are sinners, so no one is good, according to the gospel. Everyone has that potential, yes, white Americans who commit mass shootings have that potential, and some have done that. But that is because of sin and guilt and arrogance and anger at God and life.
Most Muslims know NOT to let their anger or feelings of injustice to explode into violence.
You are correct that many have those ideas if they have never spent time with Muslims as people, or forget that Muslims are also created in the image of God ( Genesis 1:26-28) or they put patriotism and security before the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Not me.
Having said all that, I do think that Faiz / QBs behavior and Stewjo exposed their sinful anger in their hearts.
The Christian faith understands the depravity of mankind.
Islam does not seem to understand that. (that it is mostly a matter of external control; external rules, punishments, community pressure that keeps people in line, etc.)
. For example, you’ll on the one hand go on and on about how they are not practicing proper adab, but then simultaneously blame Islam for their behavior!
Good point.
It shows that they allowed anger and hatred to grow in their heart to overcome the principle of a Adab ( manners)
We have this word in Farsi also by the way ha ha.
What their behavior demonstrates is the new testament principle of sin within the heart.
Mark 7:20-23
Because Islam does not emphasize internal sins in the heart and it also is a very war like religion it seems like they allowed their sinful heart along with those Islamic principles to overcome other Islamic principles of manners.
There are elements of both. There is no black and white boxes for this issue.
All human beings have arrogance, selfishness, anger, rancor and the potential to explode.
No one is better than another. We are human sinners. (Romans 3:9-23; Mark 7:20-23)
My point is that the Jihadism and vengeance / Harb / Qatal (Surah 9:28-29) have the potential to take someone who has anger and self-pity and jealousy and guilt can take them into terrorism.
“Islam tells you that sometimes, but you can never purify your heart in your own power.”
From not at all to a little, hooray for progress! In all seriousness Ken since you’ve admitted that Islam deals with internal sins sometimes or a little, what would an acceptable amount look like to you? Don’t go into whether it’s possible or not without the atonement and such doctrines, just answer the question when you have the time please.
Read my new article which has some new introduction and then the one I re-blogged just now and you can comment there also after you read what I am saying. https://apologeticsandagape.wordpress.com/
Don’t go into whether it’s possible or not without the atonement and such doctrines,
That is the point – you are not allowed to tell me, “don’t go into the atonement, etc.” – because that is precisely THE ONLY ANSWER to the problem of sin. Your religion gutted truth of all hope, forgiveness, and love. Islam empties the truth and turns it into the biggest lie ever propagated, that Al Masih did not die on the cross for sins. (Surah 4:157) This is the biggest lie for the past 1400 years, after the other big lie, “there is no god”, said by atheists and Darwinian naturalism.
This is what Rowan Atkinson says of atheists and bigot Christians like you: https://youtu.be/Ut116mBuPpg
Bunch of nitwits, and “I’m afraid the Jews were right”.
And “THE ONLY ANSWER” is refuted by this very statement: why Jesus did not save Judas Iscariot from his sin(s)/chait? Your answer brings no weight today, because it was already telestai’d in 33 anno Domini and cannot be repeated again for each gullible Christian convert. Just as crazy.
And if you are losing your faith or already lost it: https://youtu.be/SvJFoOEOYpE
“That is the point – you are not allowed to tell me, “don’t go into the atonement, etc.” – because that is precisely THE ONLY ANSWER to the problem of sin. Your religion gutted truth of all hope, forgiveness, and love. Islam empties the truth and turns it into the biggest lie ever propagated, that Al Masih did not die on the cross for sins. (Surah 4:157) This is the biggest lie for the past 1400 years, after the other big lie, “there is no god”, said by atheists and Darwinian naturalism.”
Sigh. No Ken, in fact your missing the point. We have each have different ideas about the problem of sin. That much is obvious. We can have a discussion on that another time, but it’s NOT what i asked. So i’ll ask it again, since you’ve admitted that Islam deals with internal sins sometimes or a little, what would an acceptable amount look like to you? And i’d like you to be as specific and detailed as possible.
For example please show how “little” Islamic texts deal with internal sins and compare it with the amount you’d like to see. An amount that would elevate the current texts from a “little” to “a lot”. I mean how much more does it need to be? verses? chapters? entire hadith books? I understand you believe it’s truly impossible without the death on the cross but again you’ve already admitted that they deal with it a “little” so it shouldn’t be hard to articulate what a “lot” should look like text wise.
The problem is they Probably thought that you know the truth but are reluctantly hiding it and completly frustrated them over a very long period of time and discussions.
“That is the point – you are not allowed to tell me, “don’t go into the atonement, etc.” – because that is precisely THE ONLY ANSWER to the problem of sin. Your religion gutted truth of all hope, forgiveness, and love. Islam empties the truth and turns it into the biggest lie ever propagated, that Al Masih did not die on the cross for sins. (Surah 4:157) This is the biggest lie for the past 1400 years, after the other big lie, “there is no god”, said by atheists and Darwinian naturalism.”
Sigh. No Ken, in fact your missing the point. We each have different ideas about the problem of sin. That much is obvious. We can have a discussion on that another time, but it’s NOT what i asked. So i’ll ask it again, since you’ve admitted that Islam deals with internal sins sometimes or a little, what would an acceptable amount look like to you? And i’d like you to be as specific and detailed as possible.
For example please show how “little” Islamic texts deal with internal sins and compare it with the amount you’d like to see. An amount that would elevate the current texts from a “little” to “a lot”. I mean how much more does it need to be? verses? chapters? entire hadith books? I understand you believe it’s truly impossible without the death on the cross but again you’ve already admitted that they deal with it a “little” so it shouldn’t be hard to articulate what a “lot” should look like text wise.
Well, when you stop communicating with the opponent meaningfully by not listening to what he said, and you only repeat your nonsensical preaching, then what would you expect from that opponent?
I’ve told you many times “you’re not in a church.” You need to engage meaningfully with others. For all of these reasons, I think brother Faiz was fair with you. You deserve that, Ken.
Because there is no reply button to your comment with the book that tries to show some kind of connection between Horus and Christ, I have to put it here.
There is no connection of Jesus with pagan gods. None whatsoever.
All the analogies bread down when someone really investigates the facts of those suppossed parallels and analogies.
“In the great and fundamental myths of ancient Egypt, the god Horus often regarded as a precursor to Christ, historically and conceptually speaking.” Jordan Peterson.
I love Iranian food and Turkish food and Tajik and Uzbek food and Pakistani and Arabic speaking countries foods – morocco Egypt Syria Jordan Palestinians.
There hospitality culture is really great and Westerners could learn a lesson from that.
Islamic architecture is very impressive and there’s a lot of great Islamic poetry especially Iranian poetry of Sufis such as Hafez, Saadi, Rumi, Rudaki, Ferdosi, and others
The only Muslims I have met who refuse to relate are the Saudis that I have met in the US;
they seem pretty closed. That does not mean that all from Saudi Arabia are like that but only the ones that I have met seemed closed.
But many from all those other countries and cultures that I named above are very friendly and hospitable and that is very commendable and good and I respect that and I try to teach Americans to understand that and not be afraid of friendships with Muslims that I have done for about 37 years.
“The message of the cross is foolishness to those that are perishing. (see 1 Corinthians 1:18-31) = the message of Jesus’ atonement on the cross (the power of His death to save and cleanse from sin and the forgiveness and peace that it accomplished) and all that is connected to it – sinfulness of mankind, no hope, no peace without Christ, incarnation, resurrection, Trinity, etc.
Of course it seems idiotic or illogical to you and your human mind trapped in sin. Your foolish heart is darkened. Romans 1:18-26”
In laymen’s terms this means “I can say whatever idiotic argument I want, and if it doesnt convince you because of how illogical it is, that means the Holy Spirit hasnt guided your heart yet.. If I interpret something differently than you do, that means your heart is full of sin and its evil and dark and icky and stinky and cursed etc…… how dare you use your brain and think differently than centuries of church indoctrination! ICKY MUSLIM!”
The text does not say any old idiotic argument that you want to make –
rather the sacred text says something about a specific doctrine in the message of the cross ; the meaning of the atonement and the death of Christ and the resurrection of Christ and who he really was according to the New Testament.
18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
19 For it is written:
“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.”
20 Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 22 Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24 but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength.
26 Brothers and sisters, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. 27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. 28 God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are, 29 so that no one may boast before him. 30 It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. 31 Therefore, as it is written: “Let the one who boasts boast in the Lord.”
‘3 persons with one God” only exists within the false trinitarian bubble according to it’s own definitions and theory about ‘óneness’
However according to biblical exegesis, the erroneous trinitarian ‘óneness’ is not articulated, neither represents the oneness of God Almighty in the Bible
HE God Almighty’s oneness of being is not represented as ‘3 persons with one God” in the bible Kenny
You can profess to be a ‘monotheist’ according to your false, conjectured trinitarian definitions and concept of óneness’ however according to the biblical terms, definitions and exegesis you are indeed a polytheist that worships 3 distinct personal deities that share the same essence of divinity Kenny, lol.. that’s 3 divine distinct gods.
Kenny, the man responded to Jesus as teacher declaring:
“Well said, teacher,” the man replied. “You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but HIM”
In support of Biblical Monotheism = Trinitarian Monotheism, please illustrate that HE, the One God, is comprised of 3 distinct persons that form HIS one divine being?
Without biblical substantiating the trinitarian óneness’ of God Almighty’s being, you in reality are a polytheist who worships 3 distict personal separate gods Kenny
“Apostasy is possible.
Hebrews 3:12
Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.”
Response:
The Bible is contradictory concerning whether a believer could apostatize or not.
There are passages stating that true believers would never apostatize:-
“They went out from us, but they were not really of us; FOR IF THEY HAD BEEN OF US, THEY WOULD HAVE REMAINED WITH US, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us” (1 John 2:19)
Note: Whenever a Christian dumped Christianity, Christians are quick to quote the above passage to claim that he was originally never a true Christian as true Christians will never leave Christianity!
On the other hand, some other verses state that true believers could apostatize:-
“For if, after they have escaped the defilement of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesu Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them”(2 Peter 2:20-21)
“For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, WHO HAVE TASTED THE HEAVENLY GIFT, AND HAVE SHARED IN THE HOLY SPIRIT, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, AND THEN HAVE FALLEN AWAY, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt”(Hebrews 6:4-6)
Note: The above two passages show that true believers who shared in the Holy Spirit can fall away (apostatize) but it is impossible for them to repent and come back to faith ! Yet, other verses contradict this by showing that those that apostatized can repent and come back to faith (see Jeremiah 3:22, Hosea 14:4, Revelations 2:5 etc)!
So, you now turned back on your previous admission that “apostasy is possible”!
So, now you sided with the passages that say a believer will never apostatize (which is the logical fallacy of no true Scotsman) which means that you put under the bus all the other biblical passages saying that true believers can apostatize (2 Peter 2:20-21, Hebrews 6:4-6 etc)!
This is the implication of blindly believing contradictory text!
The west are allergic to Islam. When they hear Islam some of them would feel one or more these symptoms:
– Itchy
– angry
– boil
– loss mind
– crazy
– mad
– aggressive
– loss control
– ignorant
– hate
– racist
– phobia
But some of them are welcome to Islam and become Muslim, alhamdulillah.
The real reason for what you perceive as “the west being allergic to Islam” = is that the west does not want Sharia law, harsh punishments (stoning for certain sins), Caliphate rule, Jihadism, Qatal (fighting, killing, Surah 9:5; 9:28-29), Harb (War), forcing Hallal meat requirements and prohibition on alcohol, etc. on the whole society, Dar Al Islam vs. Dar Al Harb, etc. Freedom of religion and freedom of speech is better.
I can categorize it to: – ignorant, – phobia and maybe – loss mind.
“that the west does not want Sharia law”
It’s not about Shari’ah. Actually the west doesn’t want any resistant system that threatens its position in being the leader of this world. Being in power and control is non-negotiable. If any resistant power tries to threaten this(even if this power came through democracy and the moral values the west worships), the west would simply betray these values and attack savagely to fall down that power. Pagan Arabs used to worship some idols made from dates, yet when they get hungry, they eat these idols. It’s the same concept.
For christians, and because they have no real paradigm in their religion out of its deficiency, to deal with this world, they have been like the whore spreading her legs with increasing promiscuity to anyone who passed by. Therefore, the christians who lived in Roman Empire for example had a different view than yours, Ken. They had no problem forcing things on the society. In fact, the founder of your sect had no problem with forcing things on the society.
“You adulterous people, don’t you know that friendship with the world means enmity against God? Therefore, anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.” James 4:4.
I’m wondering who are those people who have chosen to be a friend of this world? 🤔
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PD8OzyjtMcM
Let’s put that clown(David) aside for a moment, and let’s deal with dr. Jordan Peterson.
First of all, dr. Jordan Peterson is ignorant in Islam, and his ignorance is accomplished deliberately. I’m not going to excuse him for that because in his books, he has drawn lessons from the the Hebrew bible, Christian bible( including catholic bible), Buddhism, Vedas of Hinduism, fictional novels, traditions, and philosophers’ writings, so how could he have simply ignored Islam? I mean Islam is not a fictional writing here or there, rather it’s a comprehensive system for Life related to the body, the soul, the individual, the society, this life, and the hereafter. The history and the map of the world got changed dramatically after Islam. The corpus of writings in the Islamic communities in every aspect of this life is really huge. Not sure how someone like Jordan Peterson ignores all of that just because “Muhammad was a man of war.“!!
Second, this phenomena that we often observe in the west is really odd and inexcusable, yet it’s lined up with the western mindset. I think Karl Karl Armstrong tried to explain that not sure though. It seems it’s because of arrogance, hypocrisy, and the fact that Islam is a true challenge. It’s like when christian missionaries always find it easy to convince others, yet not muslims! Islam is a true challenge and can easily destroy the christian argument. That leads christians to be snakes and devils when they deal with muslims. The same can be said about the people of intellect in the west. I recall that dr. WLC, who wrote his thesis based on an Islamic argument by Al-Ghazali, said that he had never thought that there’s such a thing in the Islamic writings (I’m paraphrasing him.)
Third, Jordan Peterson gives himself the right to read the bible not as the words of God who cannot be mistaken, but as “fabricated stories by our collective imagination working over centuries.” 12 Rules pp.163, but he thinks it’s impossible for muslims to do the same with Qur’an? Why not? Again, I’m not saying this’s right, but I simply point to this hypocrisy that he adopts.
And when he was asked about the (resurrection of Jesus), he said “It’s an issue that I wrestle with continually because there’s much in the NT beyond our comprehension …..I don’t know what to make of the idea of the physical resurrection. It’s complicated conceptually within the confines of the gospels themselves …”
Not sure how “Muhammad a man of war” would somehow prevent him to look to the nature of Islamic teachings and Qur’an! Or at least look at them from any angle he wants. The amount of hypocrisy and arrogance is really something with this man!
Fourth, Jordan Peterson plays the game of cherry picking repeatedly. He adopts many ideas such as evolution and how should we be competitive to gain the best from the world as all animal got evolved in such a way. Animals’ brains got evolved to protect their territories and to have all the females, yet then he talks about how should we be charitable and generous to others. The transition is not clear. As an animal you want all girls, what stops you then? What’s your view exactly?
Or he talks about the principle of unequal distribution, and he tried to tickle the feelings of christians by saying that Jesus was really the Son of God by knowing this principle when he said “For to everyone who has, more will be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who does not have, even what he has will be taken away”, yet Peterson eventually wants to solve this problem of unequal distribution neglecting the fact that in that passage Jesus was not saying it’s problem in the first place! Not to mention the context in that passage was not even about principle of unequal distribution.
I think Jordan Peterson should read about the (Islamic economy), which I think it’s a subject out of that arrogant nose’s league.
Fifth, Jordan Peterson has a problem with the idea of being passive in this life. However, we know that christianity endorses such a notion about life at least in a major theme of the NT. He tried to solve this problem in this deficient religion as the following:
https://i.imgur.com/rP8PrFJ.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/snV6Htc.jpg
However, still the problem of christianity, that Peterson tried to solve it by looking to the matter as equations, doesn’t rely on the golden rule. What is Jordan Peterson going to do with this one “But I say, do not resist an evil person! If someone slaps you on the right cheek, offer the other cheek also.”?
Or this one “love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you.”?
I mean I wish that christians a actually believed in that(i.e. to be passive in this life and just waiting for Jesus), they would save much time and effort for muslims. But we know that this “development” which is not part of christianity as clown David claimed was actually necessary for christians to grow and continue. And If we want talk about things developed by christians anyway, the Trinity as it’s today was something christians have developed, and it’s not a part of christian scripture necessarily, so I’m not sure what christians try to say by playing this game!
Sixth, Jordan Peterson is a fan for Nietzsche, and he even tried to defend him in some interviews. However, Nietzsche knew this flaw mentioned above in christianity, and he condemned it.
https://i.imgur.com/puBdSad.jpg
The solution Peterson provides for this flaw in christianity is the following.
https://i.imgur.com/6XdwIT8.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/BpFssUB.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/9hgl1CI.jpg
Then he’s just ignored the core of christianity that Jesus came to redeem this world caused by the original sin of the first man by saying!
https://i.imgur.com/aaakSaG.jpg
What a cheap game he tried to play!!
Again we know that the problem of christianity is bigger than this cheap game he played, and he knows that. Christianity tells you that once Jesus got crucified, you’re redeemed, so logically the responsibilities got removed from you. If that doesn’t work, and we know it doesn’t work, then the problem is in this view this religion tries to draw. Not to mention the problem of evil and how christianity awfully deals with it, which got reflected also on Jordan Peterson’s view.
It’s easy for him to say that this religion deficient,and doesn’t give us the solution for how to understand this world and why we are here.
Finally, this for the clown and his student Ken.
Could christians apply this teaching of Jesus when the ruler is a muslim? “Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s; and to God the things that are God’s.” ? 🙂
I know the answer! It’s an answer that requires to sacrifice with Jesus’ teaching.
Thanks for all the pages to Jordan Peterson’s book. I have that book and have read some of it, though not every word. (I wish you put the page number on all of them. good on the first one – page 163, but I had to spend time to find the other ones, etc. – that’s ok, I guess.
You are partially right in that Dr. Peterson views the Bible as some kind of human expression of an interpretation of life and the soul, but an important part of western civilization. Obviously, I (and all Bible believing Christians) disagree with his mixing of pagan religions,Nietzsche, Darwinian naturalistic evolution, Carl Jung’s philosophy, etc.
All that aside, he was right on his 2 main points. 1. Islam is a total unity of government and it as a religious system. The power and force of government was in Islam from the beginning. 2. Muhammad was a warlord.
Christianity conquered the Roman Empire over the first 3-4 centuries by not having that force of power.
Islam did the opposite in it’s aggressive warfare and attacks and conquerings, etc. – Jihads, Qatal and Harb (Surah 9:5; 9:28-29) Dar Al Islam vs. Dar Al Harb, etc.
Lord willing, I will have to digest all the Jordan Peterson pages and comment later.
Just because he is wrong on many other points vs. Evangelical believing Christian Faith, does not mean he is wrong about those 2 points about Islam.
Just war principles were developed in the western tradition and are compatible with the other teachings. Christianity never teaches passivity – we are to make proper choices and actions.
“turn the other cheek” is not a blanket thing – the point is to crucify your bitterness and revengeful spirit, which is one of the roots of Islam; the heart of Islam – a bitterness, jealousy and vengeance within it. That is what causes it to keep fighting and attacking and never being able to find peace and forgiveness – because you have no redemption or atonement, therefore you have no forgiveness – only anger and a vengeful spirit, spite, rancor, hatred. Even some of the other Muslims that were here turned on Paul Williams in hatred and vengeance, which exposed the root of their hearts that is constantly marinating in the spirit of Islam.
“Does not mean he is wrong about those 2 points about Islam”
He’s wrong though. At least according to his view to this world.
However, my main issue with him is not that he said that “Muhammad was a man of war”, rather that he’s not willing to read about Islam and the prophet pbuh objectively because “Muhammad was a man of war.”
Moses was a man of war! Joshua was a man of war! David was a man of war! Does that prevent him from reading the bible as Middle Eastern stories!?
Notice that we are not talking about one of the clown’s students who doesn’t know what his bible says. We are talking about a man who’s supposedly well read in almost every religion and philosophy in this world. He’s supposed to be academic knowing his sources, yet when it comes to Islam, he suddenly & intentionally becomes like any fanatic christian whose sources are the Fox News. It’s so unacceptable from him.
And about wars, I’d simply answer him that the wars the prophet pbuh engaged with were to render the Chaos of the Being to Order (according to Peterson’s language he used in his book.) And that’s in case we submitted to this very deficient notion about the prophet pbuh he adopts.
Even his notion about the separation between the church and the state! Did he really read about the philosophy of Islam about that? No! He simply thinks the model of the state in Islam is like the medieval christian state! Moreover, in his book, he will tell you that there’s no an atheist person fundamentally because once the person believes or moves according to a view of right & wrong to deal with this world, then he’s not an atheist, so could we say the same thing about the model of the modern state? Especially that he keeps whining in how the modern state deals with file of LGBT.
But again this’s not the main issue with this man. He needs to humble himself. He needs to stop being arrogant and hypocrite. He needs to stop being ignorant intentionally. This’s the main issue.
Moses was a man of war! Joshua was a man of war! David was a man of war!
Yes, true. in fact “God is a warrior” – Exodus 15:3 – He makes war against falsehood and idolatry and “against all the gods of Egypt” (Exodus 12:12)
The God who commanded Moses and Joshua and David is the same God of the NT, and they were right for their time and context, but Muhammad was wrong – they did just war; Muhammad did unjust and sinful war, on behalf of a false god (the Unitarian lonely monad; the Al-Jabbar dictator – no love, no relationship) Only the Trinity can satisfy the human heart longing for having relationship with the Creator.
Also, he said, “Muhammad was a war-lord” – even worse than a brave warrior who defends. He created Islam out of his own mind and grabbed what he was hearing from the heretics and nominal Christians and the Jews of N. Arabia – Midrash stories and mixed it all up in confusing contradictions to the true Scriptures – the OT and NT.
The NT and Trinitarian theology were the Divine revelatory results and products and effects of the God who commanded Moses and Joshua and David, so Muhammad’s wars against the Christians and his misunderstanding and condemnation of Christian doctrine, (Surah 4:171; 5:116; 5:72-75; 6:101; 4:157; 9:28-29) makes him an unjust man that actually fought against what Moses, Joshua, and David did.
“Yes, true. in fact “God is a warrior” – Exodus 15:3 – He makes war against falsehood and idolatry and “against all the gods of Egypt” (Exodus 12:12)”
🙂
I know that! That’s why one of the earliest sect of christianity believed that the god of the Hebrew bible is not the same god of the christians’ god. Also, that’s why many evangelists of today don’t like to read the Hebrew bible. It’s against the image they know about their god. That’s why Nietzsche said the mixing two different books and presenting them as if they are one book “is the greatest audacity and sin against the spirit which literary Europe has on its conscience” as Peterson pointed in his book.
But to be fair, evangelists of today are like the snake, and they depend on the hypocrisy so that they can continue presenting their deficient religion, so you might find many evangelists who are with wars, and they encourage them. After all, Jesus is the one who told the president of U.S. to invade Iraq. They always dance with this spirit of hypocrisy which is a natural result of their deficient religion which doesn’t provide a comprehensive view to this world and its nature, and how we deal with it.
The rest of your comment is as usual the same nonsensical repetitive preaching which doesn’t deserve my time. But because you’ve opened this door, Peterson in his book recommended this book
https://www.amazon.com/Christ-Egypt-Horus-Jesus-Connection-Murdock/dp/0979963117
I hope you enjoy reading it. 🙂
That one I can categorize it to: – ignorant
Did you watch it?
What exactly is ignorant about it?
It has been narrated on the authority of Abdullah b. ‘Umar that the Messenger of Allah said:
I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah, and they establish prayer, and pay Zakat and if they do it, their blood and property are guaranteed protection on my behalf except when justified by law, and their affairs rest with Allah.
Reference
: Sahih Muslim 22
In-book reference : Book 1, Hadith 36
USC-MSA web (English) reference
: Book 1, Hadith 33
https://sunnah.com/muslim/1
Why should we listen to what David Wood, an ex-con & convicted sociopath, says about Islam?
Jordan Peterson said 2 things about Islam, and he was right.
Furthermore David Wood paid his debt to society in prison And in correctional institutes for several years, and he heard the gospel, and God converted him and so there is redemption which we have in Christ and he has explained all this up front so it is bigotry and prejudice of you to reject what he says because of his past .
it shows that you do not allow forgiveness and redemption.
Maybe because Islam does not really have forgiveness or redemption.
Yeah, they are ignorant, two main fundamental things about Islam and Christian are Jesus and God.
Islam : 1. God is one NOT three in one or one in three persons
2. Jesus is a messiah and a prophet NOT God
Christian: 1. God is one in three persons
2. Jesus is God
That’s all.
If you are talking about God command this and that, so what? Did you obey all God’s commands in the Bible?
That’s why I call them ignorant.
I don’t understand David Wood. If his arguments disprove Islam, why should a muslim accept Christianity as if these two religions were the only one to exist? So disproving islam automatically prove Christianity?
What about Buddhism? Hinduism? The whole muslim-christian apologetic thing is so strange to me. Both live in a bubble.
@poiterfrance
I think Gandhi was right when he said ‘An eye for an eye will make the whole world blind’.
Folk from both sides have become so fixated on tearing the other side down that it not only makes their own position seem unpalatable to outsiders but also ends up twisting them into angry, embittered, and hateful individuals.
Sometimes, in my opinion, it’s better to live and let live.
Jesus and the Bible taught the root of that 600 years before Islam.
Matthew 5:27-28
27 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery’;
28 but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
also
Mark 7:20-23
also before then:
Genesis 6:5
Jeremiah 17:9
Jesus was a Muslim, as was Abraham.
Neither was a Christian.
Jesus and Abraham could not have been Muslims since Islam only started around 613 to 632 AD.
To claim they were Muslims is anachronistic and anti-intellectual.
Jesus laid the foundation for NT and Trinitarian Christianity.
Matthew 28:19
baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit
three persons of the Trinity in one verse of Jesus’ statement.
600 year late false religion of harsh attempting to conquer the world. (Dar Al Islam vs. Dar Al Harb = territory of Islam vs. territory of war)
Jesus said : “Assalaamualaikum”
of course Jesus and Abraham were Muslim. Neither followed your religion Ken.
Shalom aleikhem was a traditional Jewish Hebrew greeting, found already in the Talmud (in Jewish Aramaic shlema aleikhun).
Christians employed the Syriac shlomo aleikhun.
Abraham was neither a Jew or a Christian, I agree. Though what tradition tells us is that he recognized God in a world surrounded by idolatry and submitted to God. So in this sense he was a “Muslim” or perhaps better a “submitter”. In fact, surah 3:67 tells us he was a “hanifi Muslim” probably meaning a “heathen submitter”.
No Christian or Jew will disagree because that is what their own traditions narrate.
The problem with using the word “Muslim” for pre-islamic figures is that it may too easily lead to misundetstanding.
But saying Jesus was a Muslim strikes me as misleading for two reasons:
1. he was clearly a devout Jew within the context of 1st. Century Palestine.
2. Jesus of the Quran is more an argument against Christianity, somewhat detached from his 1st century Palestinian Jewish context. For example, when God asks Jesus, presumably in the hereafter, in surah 5:116 if he said to worship him and Mary besides God, Jesus denies this. In other words, he is no longer an historical figure of a certain time and place, but transformed into an argument against Christian religious practices as they later came to be perceived.
Ken has 2 objectives
1) follow apostle paul
2) say he’s following jesus
Perfect summary.
No, that was not a summary at all
All the gospels agree what I am saying.
31 And He (Jesus) began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders and the chief priests and the scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again. 32 And He was stating the matter plainly. And Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him. 33 But turning around and seeing His disciples, He rebuked Peter and *said, “Get behind Me, Satan; for you are not setting your mind on God’s interests, but man’s.”
Mark 8:31-33
“31 And He (Jesus) began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by…and the scribes,”
Jesus prophesied the bible would be written by scribes that rejected his message. A small child would be able to understand the bible has to be corrupted.
?
Not coherent or understandable.
Try again
pots and kettles
Also not coherent
it is if you are an educated person lol
Which comment are you referring to as
“Pots and kettles”
You don’t give enough context.
Giving context and giving a whole sentence or complete argument is what marks an educated person.
Not just a phrase.
The scribes are simply those who are learned in the law and may therefore draw up legal documents, copy the Torah, and are knowledgable in interpreting the Torah. It has nothing to do with corruption of the written law.
If you look, for example, at Matthew 2:3-6 Herod summons the chief priests and scribes to interpret scripture as they are learned in it:
3 “When Herod the king heard this, he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him; 4 and assembling all the chief priests and scribes of the people, he inquired of them where the Christ was to be born. 5 They told him, “In Bethlehem of Judea, for so it is written by the prophet:
6 “‘And you, O Bethlehem, in the land of Judah, are by no means least among the rulers of Judah;
for from you shall come a ruler who will shepherd my people Israel.’”
@Mar c
referring to scribes who write laws and copy scripture and who interpret text, jesus said they will REJECT MEE.
Hi its’ me Marc, hows everyone doing?rejected!
Hey I need a ride to the store, can someone please.. rejected!
Can you pass this letter to my friend? Rejected!
Jesus prophesied for you that day, not muslims.
How does that mean the written text was corrupted? Doesn’t it assume that what they had in Jesus’ day was true? If it was corrupted why would you expect them to correctly identify Jesus in the Torah?
What it says is that those who best know the scriptures will reject him or remain indifferent.
If you look at Matthew 2 again, those who are learned find out from looking in scripture exactly where the Messiah is born. Yet they do nothing. They do not seek out the Messiah, their saviour.
Thus it perhaps communicates the idea that the learned in scripture, the Jews, rejected him or were indifferent from the very beginning. Not that the text is corrupted or that the scribes will corrupt it by literally changing prophecies about Jesus.
of course Jesus and Abraham were Muslim.
No,
Islam came 600 years later after Jesus , so neither Abraham nor Jesus were Muslims
Islam came 2 thousand & 600 years later after Abraham so Abraham was not a Muslim at all.
You have been schooled about this before but once again display your invincible ignorance.
‘Muslim’ in the Quran is one who submits to God – and Abraham is given as an exemplary example. That’s what the word means in Arabic. So of course Abraham, Moses, and Jesus were muslims in the Quran’s definition.
No,
600 years too late.
A man made religion.
Christians also submit to God.
“Take up your cross every day”
Luke 9:23
“ submit to God”
James 4:7
“Surrender your bodies as a living sacrifice to God”
Romans 12:1-2
Islam = the religion of Abraham.
Ken = the religion of know-it-all American fundamentalism.
Paul,
Did you return to Islam and submit to Allah and submit to all his regulation of praying five times a day and fasting during Ramadan , etc. ?
Neither were Abraham and Jesus Trinitarians Ken Lol….accordingly to Bible exegesis and definitions, you are a polytheist that worships 3 distinct personal divine deities Ken unknown to Abrahan and Jesus, according to the bible you are to be executed for calling to the worship of 3 distinct personal gods that share the same essence of divinity i.e calling to trinitarian polytheism in contradiction to Biblical Monotheism
You don’t seem to know what the New Testament teaches and that it affirms monotheism and that trinitarianism also affirms monotheism and early church is also Monotheism. And all true Christians are Monotheists.
Trinitas Unitas – the “Unitas” = one
https://apologeticsandagape.wordpress.com/2014/01/18/the-doctrine-of-the-trinity-trinitas-unitas-unitas-trinitas/
No Kenny, you have no clue what the NT teaches about Biblical Monotheism.
Ken, in reference to the true God Almighty in the Bible, HE is referred to as One God. Can you show us where the Bible articulates HE the ‘One God is comprised of 3 distinct persons ( Father, Son & Holy Spiri) that *collectivelly* form One single divine being, in support of the Trinitarian theory of God?
Without biblically substantiating that each divine person of the trinity *collectivelly* form or comprise the One being of God, you are merely applying your own personal Eisegesis in an attempt to presume each person of the trinity are individualy a divine person, which illustrates you, according to Biblical Exegesis, are a polytheist that worships 3 distinct personal, separate deities, not the One true God
Yes, Trinitarianism, according to it’s own definition and theory of ‘Monotheism’, worship ‘One God’,
However this Trinitarian ‘Oneness’ of God is not articulated, neither represents NT Biblical Monotheism Kenny, Do you understand the difference?
Where is HE, God Almighty, comprised of 3 distinct divine persons that comprise HIS One being in the bible?
Kenny, when the man responded to Jesus as teacher declaring:
“Well said, teacher,” the man replied. “You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but HIM”
In support of Biblical Monotheism = Trinitarian Monotheism, please illustrate that HIM, the One God, HE is comprised of 3 distinct persons that form one divine being?
No .
Islam is the religion of Mohammed who started preaching at around 613 AD and died in 632 AD.
No.
Islam is the religion of all prophets sent by God from Adam to Mohammed and Mohammed is the last prophet who started preaching at around 613 AD and died in 632 AD.
Ken when the Quran refers to Abraham as a Muslim, it does not mean “one who follows the Shariah of Muhammad (PBUH&HF) and the Quran as the final revelation from God”. It means one who submitted to the will of God. Basically one who obeyed God and acted upon what God wills… This is the literally definition of a Muslim according the Quran.. This is really not that hard to understand man… the issue with you is you are a broken record who just repeats the same thing over and over again with out ANY proof. That is not how one makes a cogent, logical argument…
This is exactly why you fail at convincing any of the Muslims on this blog, to follow the Christian faith..
Honestly you are wasting your time and you should stick to preaching to those who are already converted.
No one here will be convinced to join Christianity from the arguments you present..
If I ran this blog, your ass would have been banned years ago. Not to stifle your freedom of speech, but out of respect for the time and patience of everyone else who reads this blog.
‘If I ran this blog, your ass would have been banned years ago. Not to stifle your freedom of speech, but out of respect for the time and patience of everyone else who reads this blog.’
I understand your frustration bro. But this blog is getting fewer and fewer visitors as it is. If I banned Ken it would be as quiet as the grave.
hahahahaha true .. don’t ban Ken just yet Lol….
Paul,
You were right to ban Stewjo and Faiz – their hatred and rancor and sinful anger and behavior was obvious and they turned on you -why did they turn on you? I would suggest because their minds and hearts are so deep in the spirit of Islam that the rancor, spite, anger, jealousy, hatred is the spirit of Islam and it inherently spews forth, given enough time and circumstance.
No human being is ever convinced by arguments alone or evidence alone.
But the Holy Spirit uses arguments and evidence in the text of the new testament to bring about conversion on the inside.
Only God the Holy Spirit can convert the soul on the inside.
John 3:1-21
You must be born again.
But you cannot make yourself born again God has to do it.
For God, who said, “Light shall shine out of darkness,” is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the Light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.
2 Corinthians 4:6
2 Timothy 2:24-26
“If perhaps God will grant repentance”
The Lord’s bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged, 25 with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth, 26 and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will.
I’m not buying what your selling ken. The bible has a disturbing past of free for all killings(moses time). And jesus calling his mother woman and calling another woman a dog on another occasion is enough for me to appreciate the bible is corrupt although not entirely.
I have answered one of those several times at my blog (see the link) and here in discussion over the years. Jesus was testing the disciples’ ethnic hatred in their hearts, which comes from arrogance and pride – Mark 7:20-23. The historical even of Mark 7:24-30 follows the lesson about the human heart in 7:20-23 and the cleansing of all foods (see Acts 10-11 – “what God has cleansed, no longer consider unholy or unclean” – ie, stop with your racial prejudice and reach out with the gospel to the pagan Romans, Greeks, and Canaanites (mark 7, Matthew 15) and Samaritans (John 4), etc.
“free for all killings” (moses time)
God never approved of murder, and all His own wars are holy wars (book of Joshua) against the pagans, after the fulness of the iniquity of the Amorites / Canaanites was complete. (Genesis 15:16)
https://apologeticsandagape.wordpress.com/2014/10/03/was-jesus-cruel-to-the-canaanite-woman-mark-724-30-matthew-1521-28/
So wait Ken, the Holy Spirit has to guide one to the Trinity?
Are you trying to tell us that no matter how asinine and just plain IDIOTIC your arguments can be, no matter how illogical your arguments can be, no matter how many times your scriptural references are taken out of context, that is all fine and dandy as long as the Holy Spirit guides you?
Can you please show me the Biblical reference that clearly teaches that the Holy Spirit uses retarded argumentation to guide a person?
With all due respect Ken, that is how your argument sounds to a Non-Christian.
Now it is true that God is the one who guides people to the truth.. I will not debate you on that, but since when does bad argumentation lead one to being guided by God?
Also does the Holy Spirit also teach you to force your own interpretations on other religion’s scriptures (Such as your interpretation of the Quranic story of Ishmael’s sacrifice) with out using any of the established methodologies of exegesis that are accepted in that religion?
Also, as far as I understand, you are from the Southern States, and I have seen a lot of Christians from the South.. Does the Holy Spirit guide you all to drink beer and watch NASCAR?
The message of the cross is foolishness to those that are perishing. (see 1 Corinthians 1:18-31) = the message of Jesus’ atonement on the cross (the power of His death to save and cleanse from sin and the forgiveness and peace that it accomplished) and all that is connected to it – sinfulness of mankind, no hope, no peace without Christ, incarnation, resurrection, Trinity, etc.
Of course it seems idiotic or illogical to you and your human mind trapped in sin. Your foolish heart is darkened. Romans 1:18-26
I don’t like NASCAR at all – never been attracted to any aspect of that.
But a beer every now and then with a burger is ok and not a sin. But to get drunk is a sin. Ephesians 5:18
It is actually you and your religion who came 600 years late and later and forced it’s wrong interpretation on Genesis 22 and your religion that actually changes the stories/ historical events of the OT.
Yes, the Holy Spirit has to open your heart and mind in order to accept Christ, His atonement, incarnation, Deity, and the Trinity, etc.
But you all need to wrestle with the arguments by reading good books and allowing your mind to be exposed to the content. The Holy Spirit does not work without using texts and words and argumentations and reasons. So read all my articles on the Trinity and the books I recommend and meditate and open your thinking.
see all the books and articles I link to at the end of this article and look around for other articles on the subject.
https://apologeticsandagape.wordpress.com/2014/01/18/the-doctrine-of-the-trinity-trinitas-unitas-unitas-trinitas/
@Ken Temple
“why did they turn on you? I would suggest because their minds and hearts are so deep in the spirit of Islam that the rancor, spite, anger, jealousy, hatred is the spirit of Islam and it inherently spews forth, given enough time and circumstance.”
Wow, what an Islamophobic statement! So all muslims are just ticking time bombs waiting to go off in your mind eh Ken? How about instead of playing God at knowing their motivations and ascribing it to the islamic bogyman you go and ask them yourself?
I did not write “all Muslims”.
Most Muslims are better than what the spirit of Islam teaches.
“Islamophobia” It’s just a tactic to shut down conversation just like people who accuse people no matter what racism or how much are they a homosexual agenda people who say someone is homophobic.is just a tactic to shut down conversation just like people who accuse people no matter what of racism or the homosexual agenda people who say someone is homophobic
“Yes, the Holy Spirit has to open your heart and mind in order to accept Christ, His atonement, incarnation, Deity, and the Trinity, etc”
The Holy Spirit has opened my heart and mind, he told me that I have to worship One God Alone NOT One God in three persons and also he told me to accept Christ as a messiah and a prophet of God NOT as God.
That cannot be because you don’t have a Holy Spirit in Islam unless you’re trying to say that an angel opened your mind to Islam.
@Ken Temple
“I did not write “all Muslims”.
Most Muslims are better than what the spirit of Islam teaches.”
Yeah i bet their the “good ones” in your mind huh? Your rhetoric concerning Stew and QB has always been inherently contradictory. For example, you’ll on the one hand go on and on about how they are not practicing proper adab, but then simultaneously blame Islam for their behavior! Which is the true spirit of Islam Ken? Is it one that emphasizes good manners? or a spirit of rancor and hatred? It can’t be both. So forgive me for not taking you as an expert on the spirit of Islam Ken.
“Islamophobia” It’s just a tactic to shut down conversation just like people who accuse people no matter what racism or how much are they a homosexual agenda people who say someone is homophobic.is just a tactic to shut down conversation just like people who accuse people no matter what of racism or the homosexual agenda people who say someone is homophobic”
So are you saying that fear/hatred of muslims doesn’t exist? Because thats what it sounds like Ken. And while yes in the modern world labels of various phobias can be overused and overblown it doesn’t change the fact that on some level said phobias exist.
“That cannot be because you don’t have a Holy Spirit in Islam unless you’re trying to say that an angel opened your mind to Islam.”
You just contradictive yourself. So the Holy Spirit doesn’t work to Muslim, I thought he was so powerful but he can’t enter the Muslim’s heart.
If you don’t believe the Holy Spirit has entered my heart and mind, so why should I believe you that the Holy Spirit has entered yours?
It is not a contradiction because you don’t believe in the third person of the Trinity, the Holy Spirit so the Holy Spirit cannot lead you to deny the doctrine of the Trinity which includes the third person of the Trinity that is the Holy Spirit.
The religion of Islam does not have a Holy Spirit the third person of the Trinity therefore he cannot by definition lead you to deny the Trinity which includes the three persons.
Of course its contradictive, you just replying to a Muslim’s comment (@ Agnostic…), you said ” the Holy Spirit has to open your heart and mind in order to accept Christ”, but you didn’t believe he has opened a Muslim’s heart.
You would believe If I said The Holy Spirit has opened my heart and told me to accept Jesus is God.
You wouldn’t believe if I said The Holy Spirit has opened my heart and told me to accept Christ as a messiah and a prophet of God NOT as God.
If the Holy Spirit opens a Muslims heart to the gospel and to the meaning of the gospel that means that they will automatically start believing in the atonement of the cross, the resurrection, the Deity of Christ and the trinity,
In other words they will become converted and they will become a Christian.
they won’t fight it anymore because they have seen the light God has open their eyes .
so there’s no contradiction
“In other words they will become converted and they will become a Christian”
Even Jesus was not a Christian.
The Holy Spirit opened a Christian’s heart and mind that Jesus is NOT God or maybe the Holy Spirit closed a Christian’s heart and left him.
Reasons I Changed My Mind About Jesus Being God – Sid Hatch – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6LOPDjOeU4
And The Holy Spirit told him that he is not God
5 Reasons I Changed My Mind About The Trinity | Sid Hatch – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ClyQbxrtED0
Not the Holy Spirit.
He changed his mind, but that was not the Holy Spirit.
Apostasy is possible.
Hebrews 3:12
Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.
1 John 2:19
Matthew 7:23
No, it’s not apostasy because he still holding and reading the same Holy book like yours but he has different interpretation about God. The Bible is the book of confusion.
Kenny, the god you worship as ‘holy spirit’ is actually a demon that has misled you to live as a polytheist who worships 3 distinct personal divine deities, …….
“Say: the Holy Spirit has brought the revelation from thy Lord in truth, in order to strengthen those who believe, and as a Guide, and glad tidings to Muslims – Surat-un Nahl (16):102
No.
3 persons with the ONE God is not “3 gods”
So are you saying that fear/hatred of muslims doesn’t exist?
No, you are correct that there is some real irrational fear of Muslims amount many in the west.
That is not me. I have spent years talking to many Muslims face-to-face and in their home, and in a few countries and they in my home eating they’re delicious food and enjoying the good aspects of Muslim culture which I highly respect.
@Ken Temple
Good for Ken. I mean that sincerely. However it doesn’t change the fact that you made what I feel is an islamaphobic statement. the reason i feel that way is simple, in the west islamaphobes have to reconcile the fact that most muslims are average good people with the hatred and propagandic image they have of them. they do this by two utilizing two paradigms.
1: That all “good” muslims are practicing “taqiyyah” or lying about their goodness in order to strike at the most opportune time.
2: That all “good” muslims are genuinely good people but are like ticking time bombs and at any moment extremism can be activated by them one day deciding to read the Quran or attend Jummah.
So you see Ken you may not be an Islamaphobe but you can still be capable of making islamaphobic statements
1: That all “good” muslims are practicing “taqiyyah” or lying about their goodness in order to strike at the most opportune time.
No, I don’t think that.
But there are SOME who do that.
2: That all “good” muslims are genuinely good people but are like ticking time bombs and at any moment extremism can be activated by them one day deciding to read the Quran or attend Jummah.
No; I don’t think that either. Most Muslims are not terrorists and will not explode like ticking time bombs; but there are SOME that have done that.
But all people are sinners, so no one is good, according to the gospel. Everyone has that potential, yes, white Americans who commit mass shootings have that potential, and some have done that. But that is because of sin and guilt and arrogance and anger at God and life.
Most Muslims know NOT to let their anger or feelings of injustice to explode into violence.
You are correct that many have those ideas if they have never spent time with Muslims as people, or forget that Muslims are also created in the image of God ( Genesis 1:26-28) or they put patriotism and security before the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Not me.
Having said all that, I do think that Faiz / QBs behavior and Stewjo exposed their sinful anger in their hearts.
The Christian faith understands the depravity of mankind.
Islam does not seem to understand that. (that it is mostly a matter of external control; external rules, punishments, community pressure that keeps people in line, etc.)
. For example, you’ll on the one hand go on and on about how they are not practicing proper adab, but then simultaneously blame Islam for their behavior!
Good point.
It shows that they allowed anger and hatred to grow in their heart to overcome the principle of a Adab ( manners)
We have this word in Farsi also by the way ha ha.
What their behavior demonstrates is the new testament principle of sin within the heart.
Mark 7:20-23
Because Islam does not emphasize internal sins in the heart and it also is a very war like religion it seems like they allowed their sinful heart along with those Islamic principles to overcome other Islamic principles of manners.
@Ken Temple
So your answer to my question about which Islam is, a faith that practices good manners or a religion that harbors rancor is…both? Ridiculous.
There are elements of both. There is no black and white boxes for this issue.
All human beings have arrogance, selfishness, anger, rancor and the potential to explode.
No one is better than another. We are human sinners. (Romans 3:9-23; Mark 7:20-23)
My point is that the Jihadism and vengeance / Harb / Qatal (Surah 9:28-29) have the potential to take someone who has anger and self-pity and jealousy and guilt can take them into terrorism.
@Ken Temple
“Islam tells you that sometimes, but you can never purify your heart in your own power.”
From not at all to a little, hooray for progress! In all seriousness Ken since you’ve admitted that Islam deals with internal sins sometimes or a little, what would an acceptable amount look like to you? Don’t go into whether it’s possible or not without the atonement and such doctrines, just answer the question when you have the time please.
Read my new article which has some new introduction and then the one I re-blogged just now and you can comment there also after you read what I am saying.
https://apologeticsandagape.wordpress.com/
Don’t go into whether it’s possible or not without the atonement and such doctrines,
That is the point – you are not allowed to tell me, “don’t go into the atonement, etc.” – because that is precisely THE ONLY ANSWER to the problem of sin. Your religion gutted truth of all hope, forgiveness, and love. Islam empties the truth and turns it into the biggest lie ever propagated, that Al Masih did not die on the cross for sins. (Surah 4:157) This is the biggest lie for the past 1400 years, after the other big lie, “there is no god”, said by atheists and Darwinian naturalism.
This is what Rowan Atkinson says of atheists and bigot Christians like you:
https://youtu.be/Ut116mBuPpg
Bunch of nitwits, and “I’m afraid the Jews were right”.
And “THE ONLY ANSWER” is refuted by this very statement: why Jesus did not save Judas Iscariot from his sin(s)/chait? Your answer brings no weight today, because it was already telestai’d in 33 anno Domini and cannot be repeated again for each gullible Christian convert. Just as crazy.
And if you are losing your faith or already lost it:
https://youtu.be/SvJFoOEOYpE
@Ken Temple
“That is the point – you are not allowed to tell me, “don’t go into the atonement, etc.” – because that is precisely THE ONLY ANSWER to the problem of sin. Your religion gutted truth of all hope, forgiveness, and love. Islam empties the truth and turns it into the biggest lie ever propagated, that Al Masih did not die on the cross for sins. (Surah 4:157) This is the biggest lie for the past 1400 years, after the other big lie, “there is no god”, said by atheists and Darwinian naturalism.”
Sigh. No Ken, in fact your missing the point. We have each have different ideas about the problem of sin. That much is obvious. We can have a discussion on that another time, but it’s NOT what i asked. So i’ll ask it again, since you’ve admitted that Islam deals with internal sins sometimes or a little, what would an acceptable amount look like to you? And i’d like you to be as specific and detailed as possible.
For example please show how “little” Islamic texts deal with internal sins and compare it with the amount you’d like to see. An amount that would elevate the current texts from a “little” to “a lot”. I mean how much more does it need to be? verses? chapters? entire hadith books? I understand you believe it’s truly impossible without the death on the cross but again you’ve already admitted that they deal with it a “little” so it shouldn’t be hard to articulate what a “lot” should look like text wise.
And according to them the good manners that Adab teaches does not apply to polytheists ( their view of me)
stew even admitted he had hatred toward me as a person.
In QB phase demonstrated that behavior from the beginning
The problem is they Probably thought that you know the truth but are reluctantly hiding it and completly frustrated them over a very long period of time and discussions.
@Ken Temple
“That is the point – you are not allowed to tell me, “don’t go into the atonement, etc.” – because that is precisely THE ONLY ANSWER to the problem of sin. Your religion gutted truth of all hope, forgiveness, and love. Islam empties the truth and turns it into the biggest lie ever propagated, that Al Masih did not die on the cross for sins. (Surah 4:157) This is the biggest lie for the past 1400 years, after the other big lie, “there is no god”, said by atheists and Darwinian naturalism.”
Sigh. No Ken, in fact your missing the point. We each have different ideas about the problem of sin. That much is obvious. We can have a discussion on that another time, but it’s NOT what i asked. So i’ll ask it again, since you’ve admitted that Islam deals with internal sins sometimes or a little, what would an acceptable amount look like to you? And i’d like you to be as specific and detailed as possible.
For example please show how “little” Islamic texts deal with internal sins and compare it with the amount you’d like to see. An amount that would elevate the current texts from a “little” to “a lot”. I mean how much more does it need to be? verses? chapters? entire hadith books? I understand you believe it’s truly impossible without the death on the cross but again you’ve already admitted that they deal with it a “little” so it shouldn’t be hard to articulate what a “lot” should look like text wise.
And QB / Faiz demonstrated that behavior from the beginning.
He almost never had any Adab
Well, when you stop communicating with the opponent meaningfully by not listening to what he said, and you only repeat your nonsensical preaching, then what would you expect from that opponent?
I’ve told you many times “you’re not in a church.” You need to engage meaningfully with others. For all of these reasons, I think brother Faiz was fair with you. You deserve that, Ken.
Because there is no reply button to your comment with the book that tries to show some kind of connection between Horus and Christ, I have to put it here.
There is no connection of Jesus with pagan gods. None whatsoever.
All the analogies bread down when someone really investigates the facts of those suppossed parallels and analogies.
“In the great and fundamental myths of ancient Egypt, the god Horus often regarded as a precursor to Christ, historically and conceptually speaking.” Jordan Peterson.
Well, Peterson is wrong about that.
The basic issues behind the skeptic / atheists’ claim that Christianity borrowed from pagan myths:
https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/gospels-borrow-pagan-myths/
I love Iranian food and Turkish food and Tajik and Uzbek food and Pakistani and Arabic speaking countries foods – morocco Egypt Syria Jordan Palestinians.
There hospitality culture is really great and Westerners could learn a lesson from that.
Islamic architecture is very impressive and there’s a lot of great Islamic poetry especially Iranian poetry of Sufis such as Hafez, Saadi, Rumi, Rudaki, Ferdosi, and others
And Lebanon; great food !
The only Muslims I have met who refuse to relate are the Saudis that I have met in the US;
they seem pretty closed. That does not mean that all from Saudi Arabia are like that but only the ones that I have met seemed closed.
But many from all those other countries and cultures that I named above are very friendly and hospitable and that is very commendable and good and I respect that and I try to teach Americans to understand that and not be afraid of friendships with Muslims that I have done for about 37 years.
And the Kurdish people are also very friendly and hospitable.
Ken said:
“The message of the cross is foolishness to those that are perishing. (see 1 Corinthians 1:18-31) = the message of Jesus’ atonement on the cross (the power of His death to save and cleanse from sin and the forgiveness and peace that it accomplished) and all that is connected to it – sinfulness of mankind, no hope, no peace without Christ, incarnation, resurrection, Trinity, etc.
Of course it seems idiotic or illogical to you and your human mind trapped in sin. Your foolish heart is darkened. Romans 1:18-26”
In laymen’s terms this means “I can say whatever idiotic argument I want, and if it doesnt convince you because of how illogical it is, that means the Holy Spirit hasnt guided your heart yet.. If I interpret something differently than you do, that means your heart is full of sin and its evil and dark and icky and stinky and cursed etc…… how dare you use your brain and think differently than centuries of church indoctrination! ICKY MUSLIM!”
No Ken.. that isnt how guidance works..
The text does not say any old idiotic argument that you want to make –
rather the sacred text says something about a specific doctrine in the message of the cross ; the meaning of the atonement and the death of Christ and the resurrection of Christ and who he really was according to the New Testament.
18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
19 For it is written:
“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.”
20 Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 22 Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24 but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength.
26 Brothers and sisters, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. 27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. 28 God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are, 29 so that no one may boast before him. 30 It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. 31 Therefore, as it is written: “Let the one who boasts boast in the Lord.”
1 Corinthians 1:18-31
‘3 persons with one God” only exists within the false trinitarian bubble according to it’s own definitions and theory about ‘óneness’
However according to biblical exegesis, the erroneous trinitarian ‘óneness’ is not articulated, neither represents the oneness of God Almighty in the Bible
HE God Almighty’s oneness of being is not represented as ‘3 persons with one God” in the bible Kenny
You can profess to be a ‘monotheist’ according to your false, conjectured trinitarian definitions and concept of óneness’ however according to the biblical terms, definitions and exegesis you are indeed a polytheist that worships 3 distinct personal deities that share the same essence of divinity Kenny, lol.. that’s 3 divine distinct gods.
Kenny, the man responded to Jesus as teacher declaring:
“Well said, teacher,” the man replied. “You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but HIM”
In support of Biblical Monotheism = Trinitarian Monotheism, please illustrate that HE, the One God, is comprised of 3 distinct persons that form HIS one divine being?
Without biblical substantiating the trinitarian óneness’ of God Almighty’s being, you in reality are a polytheist who worships 3 distict personal separate gods Kenny
Ken Temple says:
“Apostasy is possible.
Hebrews 3:12
Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.”
Response:
The Bible is contradictory concerning whether a believer could apostatize or not.
There are passages stating that true believers would never apostatize:-
“They went out from us, but they were not really of us; FOR IF THEY HAD BEEN OF US, THEY WOULD HAVE REMAINED WITH US, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us” (1 John 2:19)
Note: Whenever a Christian dumped Christianity, Christians are quick to quote the above passage to claim that he was originally never a true Christian as true Christians will never leave Christianity!
On the other hand, some other verses state that true believers could apostatize:-
“For if, after they have escaped the defilement of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesu Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them”(2 Peter 2:20-21)
“For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, WHO HAVE TASTED THE HEAVENLY GIFT, AND HAVE SHARED IN THE HOLY SPIRIT, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, AND THEN HAVE FALLEN AWAY, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt”(Hebrews 6:4-6)
Note: The above two passages show that true believers who shared in the Holy Spirit can fall away (apostatize) but it is impossible for them to repent and come back to faith ! Yet, other verses contradict this by showing that those that apostatized can repent and come back to faith (see Jeremiah 3:22, Hosea 14:4, Revelations 2:5 etc)!
I agree that if a person turns away from Christ, then that means that they were never a true believer.
1 John 2:19, Matthew 7:23
Apostasy in Hebrews 3:12 means the community thought they were believers, but it turns out that they are not true believers.
The truly elect will never be lost.
Romans 8:28-39
John 10:27
1 Peter 1:3-5
@ Ken,
So, you now turned back on your previous admission that “apostasy is possible”!
So, now you sided with the passages that say a believer will never apostatize (which is the logical fallacy of no true Scotsman) which means that you put under the bus all the other biblical passages saying that true believers can apostatize (2 Peter 2:20-21, Hebrews 6:4-6 etc)!
This is the implication of blindly believing contradictory text!
No, Arminians and Calvinists define apostasy differently.