David Wood, the notorious anti-Muslim Christian fundamentalist confesses he is an “ex-con” who has been in “multiple jails, multiple prisons, and multiple mental hospitals” – see 1 minute 50 seconds onwards. At one time he attempted to kill his father with a hammer. His ongong behaviour towards Muslims suggests he is not entirely recovered from his mental illness.
Categories: Anti-Islam, USA
Listen to the whole thing. He does not talk about Islam at all in this video.
His analysis of 5 kinds of guards / OC officers and the parallel with 5 kinds of policemen is brilliant.
Helps understand a lot of our current situation.
He already admitted his past and the Lord has changed him. He also served time in jail, prison, etc.
If anyone is in Christ, he is new creature, the old has passed away, behold the new has come.” 2 Corinthians 5:17
“ongoing behavior towards Muslims” – usually, he is just exposing the content of the Qur’an and Hadith and Sira and Tarikh literature – granted he is polemical and also does a lot of snarky humor and mocking also. He has a shark wit and focuses on reason and logic.
He makes a lot of great points.
I meant “sharp wit”
not shark
“he is just exposing the content of the Qur’an and Hadith and Sira and Tarikh literature – granted he is polemical and also does a lot of snarky humor and mocking also. He has a shark wit and focuses on reason and logic”
I don’t think so, Ken. If we put his lies, misrepresentations, and the deceptive framework by which he presents Islam aside, you would still have a big flaw called (inconsistency/double standard) with most of his videos.
David Wood & his kinds are not much about proving Christianity, rather they are about disapproving Islam. That’s why you find him many times bringing atheists. He also knows that most of his audience actually are ignorant about Christianity let alone about Islam. He exploits this point very well. Also, he knows the general attitude of the average western person (including Christians) who has abandoned his traditions in favor of the values of the secular world. David exploits this point very good against Islam as well. In other words, he gives his audience what they want to hear emotionally. But at the end of the day, the outcome of his school will be just a bunch of ignorant people who think Allah is the moon god for pagans.
“Allah is a moon god” is a stupid idea;
Robert Morey was wrong.
I have never heard David Wood use that argument.
“I have never heard David Wood use that argument”
You missed the point. I didn’t say that David said that in particular although I think he adopts this view. What I was saying is the outcome of David’s apologetic garbage will be “Allah is moon god for pagans” as a strong argument against Islam because his audience are mostly ignorant and don’t seek the truth. And David knows that, and he just gives them what they want to hear.
By the way, when David was asked about the “argument” of the moon god, he answered it’s (over used). Notice that he didn’t say it’s not true, and christians should avoid this stupid thinking, rather he said (it’s over used) which is an answer that matches perfectly his deceptive apologetic method.
Ken
His chilling impersonal mocking of other faith traditions may well come from a psychopathic personality type he has admitted to having. To discount mental illness as a contributing factor given his long stays in mental health institutions is unwise.
Except the gospel message is if you are in Christ you are a new creation you’re a new person – 2 Cor. 5:17
if you’ve been born again your past nature has been crucified with Christ- Romans 6:6
First Corinthians chapter 6 verses nine through 11 says that we have been washed; we have been cleansed; we have been justified; we have been sanctified so that now we can grow in holiness and godliness or in Islamic terminology – piety.
His focus is on the doctrines of Islam and exposing the nature of seeking to establish the sharia and the caliphate by using aggressive jihad.
That is the kind of thing he demonstrates showing that this is a false religion as a religion based on war and force and conquering other areas.
The whole Islamic doctrine of Dar-al- Islam versus the Dar-Al-Harb (war) it is at the root of the Islamic religion.
I have a question for you Paul –
since you admitted you are no longer a Muslim,
why do you continue to defend it if you have found a problem with it?
What exactly is the problem with it?
The great thing about the Christian faith is that a true Christian is a new person (2 Cor. 5:17; 1 Corinthians 6:9-11), but not completely all at once – we have the potential to grow in piety (holiness, godliness, character) – so David Wood certainly has some of his personality as a human being – maybe that is why he is so bold and courageous and does not care what Muslims think – he is happy that so many Muslims have turned away from a false religion.
From Abdullah’s perspective, he calls it “lies”, etc., but from a Christian perspective, if Christianity is true, and it is, then logically, Islam is a false religion, and it is actually “the lie”.
You are not a true friend of Wood’s if you cover over his personality which many righly think still shows signs of mental illness, manifesting as it does in his extreme behaviour patterns.
Meh… Pascal’s wager in action. Sorry, but a new person in Christ is not supposed to criticize in impunity the way of Submission (al-Islam) and their prophets. A half-century gap is a nonissue, different cultures and mythologies explain that. It points out corrections to misunderstandings in the face of unenlightened Christendom at that time. And still the Submitters do today. This is the Sophia I have thought out.
Another one, some crazy pacifist conservative said in a website: cops are mercenaries paid by some legal corporate entity. Forcing responsilibity is no easy task though, that guy should have a sackful burden of proof for such statement. Lawfulness versus legality is a very dangerous topic in my presumptions.
“From Abdullah’s perspective, he calls it “lies”, etc., but from a Christian perspective, if Christianity is true, and it is, then logically, Islam is a false religion, and it is actually “the lie””
This’s just a lie because this’s not what I said either. Christians, especially David and his kinds (and clearly you’re one of them), adopt the view that if Islam is wrong, then that means christianity is the true religion. This’s non sequitur. It’s not an actual argument for why christianity is the truth. To be honest, I even think David in particular doesn’t care wether christianity is the truth or not. What he cares about is that Islam is wrong. Got it?
By the way, it’s not only muslims who can see how deceptive David’s apologetic method is. Even non muslims can easily see that. His stupid fans are so drunk with his mockery that even cannot use their minds any more.
Enjoy 🙂
https://youtu.be/8KqvqE-QjUg?t=149
Ken Temple: He already admitted his past and the Lord has changed him. He also served time in jail, prison, etc.
You do realize that there is no cure to pscyopathy?
spelling – psychopathy
Maybe according to modern medical determinations – but the modern medical world has also taken homosexuality and Transgenderism, etc. off its list of mental illnesses and emotional illness. (1970s) Christians disagree – they are mental and emotional problems and illnesses.
we all retain aspects of our personality and upbring even after we are saved by Christ – true Christians are growing.
David Wood’s friendship with Nabeel Qureshi in college really proved you wrong – God is able to change our hearts.
2 Cor. 5:17
But we (Christians) still have to keep putting off the old self and putting on the new self (Colossians 3, Ephesians 4, Romans 6-8) – David has demonstrated that God has poured his grace into his heart by a changed character and desire to see Muslims freed from the bondage of that false religion. Part of his bold and courageous personality is being used by God. Many Muslims have told him that their eyes have been opened to the evil and silly aspects of Islam.
Ken Temple: Maybe according to modern medical determinations – but the modern medical world has also taken homosexuality and Transgenderism, etc. off its list of mental illnesses and emotional illness.
But ‘modern medical determinations’ have not taken off psychopathy from it’s list of mental illnesses.
Temple: we all retain aspects of our personality and upbring even after we are saved by Christ – true Christians are growing.
So which aspects of psychopathy has Wood retained according to you?
Temple: David has demonstrated that God has poured his grace into his heart by a changed character and desire to see Muslims freed from the bondage of that false religion.
Can you name five good things Wood has said about Islam?
David Wood can’t live without Islam
But in this video he does not talk about Islam at all.
Yes he does, he moans about Muslims.
Where in this video about hatred of police? He did not cover Islam or Muslims at all in this video. Maybe I missed that.
Carl wrote:
Meh… Pascal’s wager in action. Sorry, but a new person in Christ is not supposed to criticize in impunity the way of Submission (al-Islam) and their prophets.
Why not?
As Jordan Peterson says, “in order to be able to think, you have to risk being offensive”
https://apologeticsandagape.wordpress.com/2020/06/27/because-in-order-to-be-able-to-think-you-have-to-risk-being-offensive-jordan-peterson/
In the west there is freedom of speech to criticize an idea or philosophy or religion.
If Christianity is true, and it is ( 500-600 years established before Islam) – then Islam, by logic and reason is false. We already have the proper respect for the true prophets. Prophets and Apostles ceased with the death of the apostles of Jesus around 96 – 100 AD.
Islam has many ideas that deserve to be criticized. (Jihad, aggressive warfare (Harb), Caliphate, Sharia, imposint that upon the rest of the world by force, etc. – Surah 9:1-5; 9:28-29; also the claim to be God’s Word, yet making so many errors of history and science. (denial of established history, Surah 4:157; not understanding the doctrine of the Trinity or Deity of Christ – etc. other really goofy mistakes that details of verses in the Qur’an are brought out by details in the Hadith. Saying that women are deficient in their minds and a court case has to have 2 women’s testimony as equal to one man, etc.
Christianity (both OT and NT) already has a doctrine of submission to God – see Romans 12:1-2; James 4:7 – we don’t need a false religion to come along 500-600 years later telling us how to submit and then making war on everybody just because we did not submit to you.
Plus Islam anachronistically re-interpreted all of the previous prophets and the result was mixing true things with false things, resulting in lies being told about the prophets and apostles before Muhammad.
Also, a new person in Christ by definition will criticize any other religion that comes along later in history and claims to be the real thing, since that entails by definition what being “in Christ” is – the truth of all the NT.
Jesus said, “beware of the false prophets” – Matthew chapter 24
2 Peter chapter 2 ; 1 and 2 Timothy, I John 4, etc. – beware of false prophets and false teachers
2 Peter; 1 and 2 Timothy
All forgeries. What a bizarre religion.
No, they are God-breathed.
“Beware” is not the same as “criticize”. If “cave canem” means beware the dog, does that mean you immediately make reports on *all* the dog’s activities to its master?
Your faith (or your subjective representation of such) relies on councils upon councils of bishops who formed the canon into one Biblios.
First step is question what you have read from books and heard from others. If something is inconsistent, irrational, or otherwise challenges your view(s), put that to the test. For example: the sun setting at mud-colored water, that is Kuruš (Cyrus the Great) witnessing a sunset facing west of the Caspian Sea. Rely only on modern astronomy and you will get confused more easily.
Regarding false prophets, I didn’t see any ravening wolves during the cleansing of the Kaaba, establishment of universities in Iberia, the Islamic Golden Age, etc. Remember who sparked your Renaissance—remnants of the disbanded Knights Templar with its treasures of knowledge from the Islamic world and beyond.
“Who is the liar who denies…” is refuted by the Qur’an statements calling Jesus as al-Masih. The Recitation (claimed authroship by the one True God, transmitted by mouths of many believers) is not to be compared to a series of Jewish books, evangel and letters compiled into one Book. “Woe to them write with their hands, claiming from the God, to traffic with coin…”
I will happy to give you my view of the Kristos if you wish. All of the New Testament has little truth that applies today than it was almost 2000 years ago. What is the product of the 40,000+ Christian sects? Confusion.
“500-600 years established before Islam”
This’s really not an argument. I told you this’s the outcome we would expect from David’s school. 🙂
Other ridiculous claims that Islam makes that deserve to be questioned and even criticized:
“First, Muslims argue that Muhammad’s miraculous scientific insights are proof that his message was from God. The obvious problem with this argument is that both the Qur’an and the Hadith are filled with scientific inaccuracies. In Sahih Al-Bukhari 547, Muhammad tells his followers that if a fly falls into their drink, they should dip the fly into the drink, because one of the fly’s wings has a disease, while the other wing has the cure for the disease. While it’s true that flies spread disease, they certainly don’t have the cures for these diseases on their wings.
Muhammad told his followers that Adam was 90 feet tall, and that people have been shrinking since the time of Adam.v Yet it’s physically impossible for a human being to be anywhere near that tall, and we have no evidence that humans have been shrinking since the time of Adam.
The Qur’an tells us that the sun sets in a pool of murky water (18:86), and that stars are missiles that God uses to shoot demons when they try to sneak into Heaven (67:5). In Surah 27, ants talk to Solomon. In Surah 86, we learn that semen is produced between the ribs and the spine. According to several verses in the Qur’an, humans come from a clot of blood. All of these claims are scientifically false. ”
https://www.namb.net/apologetics/resource/was-muhammad-a-prophet/
Yeah, the sun stood still, and the moon stopped.
The sun stopped in the middle of the sky and delayed going down about a full day.
That passage from Joshua is the combination of “phenonomical language” (how nature and creation appears to the human eye and experience, as in “the sun rises and sets”, etc.)
and with God’s miraculous power.
@ Ken
“phenonomical language” (how nature and creation appears to the human eye and experience, as in “the sun rises and sets”
Exactly! But you don’t want to apply it to Quran, because you have agendas.
“The Qur’an tells us that the sun sets in a pool of murky water”
Although this stupid claim got refuted big time, for you information, Ken; this language got used in the Hebrew bible. But you’re not aware of the original language of your scripture as most christians.
If you allege the Qur’anic verses as scientifically false, show us scientific papers discrediting them instead of an apologist’s notes!
Some of them are not to be taken literally. Do your research first, then take both positive and negative views into account. Don’t forget a Classical Arabic dictionary “if you are in doubt…”
Maybe the nuttiest of all –
In Sahih Al-Bukhari 547, Muhammad tells his followers that if a fly falls into their drink, they should dip the fly into the drink, because one of the fly’s wings has a disease, while the other wing has the cure for the disease. While it’s true that flies spread disease, they certainly don’t have the cures for these diseases on their wings.
It’s very very hard to take christians’ objections seriously. I mean the core of your religion is that God was a baby who needed his Mom to change his diaper. For you this’s how to make sense of this world and why we are here, yet christians shamelessly have the time to make stupid objection against Islam by that hadith all the sudden! Deal with the nuttiness of your religion first, man! Why would you waste our time with these really stupid objections!?
Moreover, what’s exactly your problem with that hadith? Doesn’t Jesus tell you that eating with dirty hands is ok because “Nothing outside a person can defile them by going into them“?
Try to take Jesus’ advice seriously especially with this time of Coronavirus if you dare, Ken!
So, you think Jesus meant that all physical hygiene is wrong?
That is not what Jesus is saying in Matthew 15 and Mark 7.
He is saying that you follow all those physical rituals of washing your hands and bodies and still have spiritual defilement in your heart. The spiritual defilements of evil thoughts in the heart – arrogance, hatred, hypocrisy, lust, sexual immorality, jealousy, foolishness, greed, malice , adulteries, murders, thefts, envy, slander, etc. – those are the things that defile (spiritual defilement of original sin that makes you guilty before God and sends you to hell – see also Matthew 5:21-30).
Mark 7:14-23
Read the entire passage and meditate on it, with Matthew 5:21-30
Mark 9:45-48 also.
Abdullah1234 wrote:
“Doesn’t Jesus tell you that eating with dirty hands is ok because “Nothing outside a person can defile them by going into them“?”
the answer is what I wrote above and also, you left off the rest of the verse:
Mark 7:15
15 there is nothing outside the man which can defile him [spiritually] if it goes into him; but the things which proceed out of the man are what defile [spiritually] the man.
By leaving out the rest of the verse, and also the whole context of Mark 7:1-23, you have misunderstood and skewed the passage.
This is the great problem with Islam – most of the emphasis is on external obedience to external laws, while those laws and rules can never cleanse the heart from internal sins that defile and make all of humans guilty and on our way to hell, unless one realizes this and turns to the Jesus Al Masih of the New Testament (Deity, incarnation, eternality, substitutionary ransom atonement -Mark 10:45, resurrection) to save them from their internal guilt and defilement. (repent and believe – Mark 1:15)
“So, you think Jesus meant that all physical hygiene is wrong?”
That’s not what I think, rather it’s what you think because according to pauline christianity there’s a sever battle between the body and the soul! There’s a sever battle between the spiritual aspects and the ritual aspects(physical good deeds.) And that’s why as a christian you have to choose your side(either… or.)
If you want to be constant with your religion(i.e. pauline christianity), then yes, you have to say that Jesus meant that physical hygiene is wrong. In fact, that’s what the christian history tells us. They were dirty people. Christians thought that washing your body, for example, is wrong because you have been baptized. If I’m not mistaken the muslim traveller, Ibn Jubayr (died 1217 C.E.), described christians & the christians cities and how dirty they were.
Of course for your prophet Paul the issue is even bigger than that. He degraded the body so much. He thought the marriage, for example, is not the ideal situation for a good christian. He degraded the perfect law of God despite that he tried to spin around this clear view of his towards the law of God by silly rhetoric. He thought that law leads to death. Sometimes he called it as “fables of the jews!”
And let’s not forget that the he thought the resurrected Jesus was not physical because bodies cannot inherit the kingdom of God.
“there is nothing outside the man which can defile him [spiritually] if it goes into him; but the things which proceed out of the man are what defile [spiritually] the man.
By leaving out the rest of the verse, and also the whole context of Mark 7:1-23, you have misunderstood and skewed the passage.”
No I didn’t. The one who missed the point that Jesus was trying to make is you(i.e christians.)
I’m glad that you actually got to this result eventually. Do I understand that you agree with me that Mark missed the whole point when he finalized the story by this conclusion “Thus he declared all foods clean” Mark 7:19?
“This is the great problem with Islam – most of the emphasis is on external obedience to external laws, while those laws and rules can never cleanse the heart from internal sins that defile and make all of humans guilty and on our way to hell”
First of all, you contradict Jesus’ answer with this pauline view because Jesus said “if you want to receive eternal life, keep the commandments.”
Second, of course you would say that about Islam because you have already adopted the idea of the battle between Law and the Grace while there’s no such thing in the religion of God’s prophets. Islam is the finest of message of God. It’s a perfect balanced formula for the body and the soul. Islam is the best manifestation for Jesus’ statement “You should have practiced the latter without leaving the former undone.”
Read Quran 6:151-153 & 18:110,
You have a point about the backwardness of the Roman Catholic middle Ages. The dirtiness of the backwardness of the Middle ages / Dark Ages – from 430 AD / 500s (Barbarian invasions/ Fall of Roman Empire to Goths, Vandals, Huns, etc.) to 1500s – Roman Catholic backwardness and superstition. That was not the intention of the NT nor early church history. Not true about early church history.
The rest you left out the main point.
Again:
He is saying that you follow all those physical rituals of washing your hands and bodies and still have spiritual defilement in your heart. ( He is not saying “don’t wash” “don’t bath”, etc. – Jesus is saying that even if you do; it does not cleanse your heart or soul. There must be repentance of the internal evil thoughts / sin nature. )
The spiritual defilements of evil thoughts in the heart – arrogance, hatred, hypocrisy, lust, sexual immorality, jealousy, foolishness, greed, malice , adulteries, murders, thefts, envy, slander, etc. – those are the things that defile (spiritual defilement of original sin that makes you guilty before God and sends you to hell – see also Matthew 5:21-30).
Mark 7:14-23
Read the entire passage and meditate on it, with Matthew 5:21-30
Mark 9:45-48 also.
There is no contradiction between Jesus and Paul.
Paul affirmed the physical resurrection of Jesus. 2 Cor. 5; Philippians 3:20-21; I Cor. chapter 15 (you twist one verse in that passage to wrong meaning)
Did you actually read my comment diligently, Ken? It seems you didn’t.
I did. It is you who did not read my original post that you attempted to respond to. The point of Jesus and Mark is not “don’t wash or bathe at all” – the point is that physical cleanliness cannot cleanse your heart of sin. Islamic rituals cannot cleanse your heart of sin – wudu or voozoo وضو cannot cleanse your heart of sinful anger, lust, arrogance, racial pride and hatred, jealousy, hypocrisy, guilt, selfishness, etc.
Matthew 5:21-30
Jesus declared all foods clean – all cultures are now welcomed to come to the true God – revealed through Jesus Christ, the eternal Son.
“Unless you believe that “I am” [the claim to be Yahweh], you will die in your sins.” John 8:34
Typo:
“Unless you believe that “I am” [the claim to be Yahweh], you will die in your sins.” John 8:34
Should have been:
John 8:24
First of all, you contradict Jesus’ answer with this pauline view because Jesus said “if you want to receive eternal life, keep the commandments.”
No, Abdullah1234 – you have taken Matthew 19:17 out of it’s context of 19:16-26 and then later 20:28. Same for Mark 10, which later teaches us Mark 10:45 – that the only hope for salvation is through the ransom atonement of Christ, the Messiah – His substitutionary death on the cross.
The context of Matthew 19:16-26 and Mark 10 is that the guy who comes to Jesus is already assuming that he is able to do something good in order to earn eternal life. Jesus is testing the man to show him is idolatry of his riches in his heart, and his actual pride and hypocrisy in thinking he has kept the commandments. At the end, the man walked away from Jesus blind to his own sins in his heart. The disciples asked, “then who can be saved?” (Matthew 19:25) – Jesus answered, “With men this is impossible” = human beings do not the innate ability to chose the morally right way – God has to awaken them on the inside and give them a new heart = you must be born again = you have to be changed by God’s grace from within, and only then, if true conversion takes place, only then can you “obey the commandments”.
25 When the disciples heard this, they were very astonished and said, “Then who can be saved?” 26 And looking at them Jesus said to them, “With people (human power of choice to be righteous) this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.” Matthew 19:25-26
Only God, the true God of the Bible (not Qur’an) can give grace and change the heart and give you the ability to obey God’s commandments.
Ezekiel 36:26-27
John 3:1-21
Later in both Mark 10:45 and Matthew 20:28, Jesus says the way is the way of the cross, the substitutionary ransom atonement for sin.
so, there is no contradiction between Jesus and Paul. Paul the apostle is the apostle of Jesus, he speaks God’s word and wrote God’s word. All 27 books of the NT are unified in their message.
I think you start preaching again which doesn’t give me the enthusiasm to write a response for you Ken.
It’s just as if you try to run away form the truth that you discover when you discuss with muslims. You try to hide behind these preaching-like responses.
“you have taken Matthew 19:17 out of it’s context of”
I didn’t.
That man affirmed Jesus’ answered, then he asked Jesus “What else must I do?”
Jesus answered “If you want to be perfect, go and sell all your possessions and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”
If you notice Jesus’ answer was sequential.
1-Keeping the commandments.
2-Giving the money to the poor, and God will reward you thought that (physical deed) with treasure in heaven.
3- following the God’s prophet, which is the usual commandment for Israelites (to follow the prophet of that time.)
Where did Jesus say that the law of God leads to the death exactly? Or where did he say that you have to annul the commandments because you cannot keep them, and they just intensify the sin inside you? Jesus didn’t have that view about the law of God even in these gospels which I think are bad attempts to reconcile between two contradictory teachings; Jesus on one hand and Paul on the other.
We as muslims understand Jesus better than you(i.e. christians.) I can explain more about the core of Jesus’ teachings towards jews. You, however. are like what Jesus said “they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand.”
Carl wrote:
Your faith (or your subjective representation of such) relies on councils upon councils of bishops who formed the canon into one Biblios.
Wrong. This is the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox understanding of the authority of the councils and church over the canon, but it is not the Protestant understanding of “the canon”. The church or councils did not created the canon, nor did they decide the canon; rather they discerned and discovered what was already canon from the first century apostolic witness. The “Canon”, as originally understood, was a “criterion”, “standard”, “rule”, “law”, “measuring rod” and described the existence of books and scrolls that already existed and were “God breathed” at the time of writing, from the apostles and their disciples / helpers. Much like the meaning of the Arabic, Furqan فرقان (criterion, standard, rule) and Qanoon قانون (law) – in fact the Arabic Qanoon is linguistically related to the Hebrew word that is the background of the Greek word, “kanon” κανων, (Principle, rule, law). The 27 books of the NT existed as “God-breathed” / inspired as soon as they were written, therefore they were already “canon”; they were already the criterion, principle. The historical process of discerning, witnessing to them, and collecting the different scrolls written to different areas and putting them under one “book cover” then later became the meaning of “Canon” (the list of inspired books), but they have self-authenticating power, not dependent on councils and church authority. Councils and church authority discerned and discovered what was already truth, inspired, “God-breathed”, apostolic.
For really understanding this issue, I recommend:
Michael Kruger, “Canon Revisited” and “The Question of Canon”
David King and William Webster, “Holy Scripture: The Ground and Pillar of our Faith” ( 3 volumes)
Keith Matthison, “The Shape of Sola Scriptura”
James R. White, “Scripture Alone”
Don Kistler, Editor, “Sola Scriptura: The Protestant Position on the Bible”
R. C. Sproul, “Scriptura Alone”
This is where the rift is: God should’ve manifested as Scripture descending from heaven, which doesn’t make sense.
God > “Logos” > witness(es) > scribe(s) > scripture(s) > canon
Remove multiple witnesses attestation (and probably canon), that is gnosis in a nutshell. Reading into the text, taking verses out of context, all that stuff: creative power even if it disagrees with canon, dogma, etc.
Oral transmission is God > “Logos”/“Kalima” > messenger > messenger 2 > … > messenger n > scribe(s) > scripture(s)
Then again, every person have their own concept of God.
Thank you for your book recommendations; I now know that Protestantism is the daughter of the Pauline ekklesia. Biblios as a while calling itself God’s Word collapses on one premise—how can it be the entire message of one God? There are words from Jewish prophets, the evangel from differing points of view (some impossible to harmonize), epistles from the faithful, ending with, an ambiguous vision from one John of Patmos.
If you would have caught a glimpse of ancient Egyptian mythology and history, Greek philosophers, Kabbalah, dharma, etc. the Biblios will reveal one level of understanding, going up higher with more gnosis. That is if you set canon and preconceived dogma aside for one bit.
Carl wrote:
“Who is the liar who denies…” is refuted by the Qur’an statements calling Jesus as al-Masih.
You left out the rest of the verse and the context.
The passage does not mean just calling Jesus Al Masih, المسیح (the Messiah) as if phonetic sounds have inherent power, rather denying the significance of “the Messiah” and the eternal Father and Son relationship (pointing to the Deity of Christ and the Trinity – see the rest of the verse and context, along with John 1:1-18 and 2 John 7 – denying the truth of John 1:1-5 and 1:14 – “the Word became flesh” – the one who fulfilled the OT prophecies, in his nature and person (eternal Son of God who became flesh / human ) and was the suffering servant of Isaiah 52:13-15 to 53:1-12. (final atoning sacrifice for sin, substitutionary atonement) (1 John chapter 4)
22 Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son. 23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also. 1 John 2:22-23
In my current knowledge, if you presuppose the deity of Christ and Trinity while believing in this verse of the epistle, you’re probably following al-Masih ad-Dajjal. The hadiths say he wll claim to be al-Masih and the God.
Appealing to the Greek, which is philosophically either atheist or polytheist in origin (depending on who you like to quote), would strip off of Semitic lingustics and philosophy, which is of a collective nature. Pater and Ioun are but how the early Christians call the God and Logos/Khristos (creative power of God/title, there were many messiahs). Jesus himself is not equal to the Logos but rather the “bearer of the Logos” or Evangel—Kalimantullah. He brought down the Sophia and other teachings to man.
Apply the atonement sacrifice concept today and it has no effect—placebo effect. The lost sheep of Yakub would’ve been in heaven (free from samsāra) almost 2000 years ago if Jesus died for the sins of Israel. But most humanity is still in the level of minerals (ignorant) and yet to ascend to a Christlike state. Barking dogma will not help, just goes to show how more secular are the Protestants are, sacrificing the experience of spiritual union with God for intellectual dishonesty.
Carl wrote:
In my current knowledge, if you presuppose the deity of Christ and Trinity while believing in this verse of the epistle, you’re probably following al-Masih ad-Dajjal.
“in my current knowledge” = you have much to learn about the NT, and the doctrines of the Deity of Christ, the Trinity, the atonement, and early church history. Your understanding of the canon demonstrates that you have gotten your knowledge from bad and incomplete and skewed sources.
You have to read the entire context of the passage (1 John 2:18-28) and the context of the whole epistle. Read the whole book of 5 chapters, and 2 John and the Gospel of John (22 chapters) all the way through in one sitting. The whole argument of the book/ epistle of 1 John is the message about “the Father and the Son” (1 John 2:22) “This is the anti-Christ (Dajjal دجّال )
1 John 1:1-4 is all about the incarnation of the Word (the author is pointing to his other book, the Gospel according to John 1:1-5; 1:14-18; 20:28; 5:17-18; 8:24; 10:30, etc. – the Deity of Christ and the incarnation)
and the substitutionary atoning death of the Son ( 1 John 4:10)
These are the root principles that Islam denies, so it is Islam that is actually a philosophy / religion that is at root, an Al-Dajjal (Anti-Christ) principle.
1 John is not about “the Father and the Son” ( 1 John 1:1-4 and 2:22)
but
also about “the Spirit”
1 John 4:13 and 3:24
So, the Trinity (the 3 persons of the One true God) is affirmed there also, so you are wrong because you have twisted the passage in 1 John 2.
Athanasius used these passages to explain the process of believers sanctification (being conformed to the image of Christ = growing in piety, holiness, godliness.) (page 71, John Piper, Contending for Our All, chapter 1 on Athanasius.)
You can find Piper’s book and lecture at DesiringGod.org
Typo, I left out a key word: ( I am getting old and noticing that in typing, I leave out words like “not” and “only” sometimes . . . sigh . . . drat !)
1 John is not only about “the Father and the Son” ( 1 John 1:1-4 and 2:22)
but
also about “the Spirit”
1 John 4:13 and 3:24
You didn’t have to reply like that. Apologetics and exegeses are dangerous routes of study—even if one is religiously bigoted.
Behold someone who is not Christlike. Come back when you have sincerely felt God within you.
Eventually, religious differences will be cast aside and there’s transcendence.
I’ll be at my sancutary. Basileus within.
You didn’t have to reply like that.
What do you mean?
I answered your charges
1. You wrote that
“you’re probably following al-Masih ad-Dajjal.” and by judging the Deity of Christ and the Trinity as presuppositions rather than proper interpretations of all the relevant texts of the NT.
It was you who made the personal charge first. Ad hominem
2. I demonstrated that
are mis-interpreting the passage in 1 John.
Apologetics and exegeses are dangerous routes of study—
how so?
Are they not the proper sciences of interpreting the text (exegesis) and defending (apologetics) the truth of NT Christianity?
. . . even if one is religiously bigoted.
Christianity and it’s defense is a matter of truth, logic, and history vs. Islam. If the NT is true, then logically and automatically, Islam is false. There is no bigotry by using thinking processes of logic, reason, truth, history, and exegesis of the NT text.
Behold someone who is not Christlike.
What do you mean? Jesus did not defend Himself and His teachings as the Way, the Truth, and the Life in the presence of false teachers, like the Pharisees, Jewish leaders who rejected His Messiahship? To rebuke falsehood is being Christlike. “speaking the truth in love” is Christlike.
Come back when you have sincerely felt God within you.
Already have, and therefore I engage with you and others, as much as possible here.
Eventually, religious differences will be cast aside and there’s transcendence.
Are you saying that both Christianity and Islam are wrong and you are offering some other kind of higher truth called “transcendence” ?
I’ll be at my sancutary. Basileus within.
I am guessing that by using something close to the Greek word for “king” Βασιλευς (Basileus) or maybe you meant “kingdom” (Βασιλεια) –
are you claiming to be “king within” (autonomous) or possessing the kingdom of God inside of you ?
Sigh, we’re replying like walls. Thank you for correcting me on the Greek, was too confused when researching on the kings during the Hellenistic era. Guess it’s all hot air. Keep holding on to your dogma while I keep mine. We both know who is under ad-Dajjal’s spell.
Transcendence will be hard for you. One thing missing from the apologist is the wisdom of the ancient world. Reject them completely and you’ll never know why all these holy books were written. It is not about which faith is true or false, it is about bringing yourself closer to God regardless of preconceived concepts of such. And this is what most modern Protestants do: they throw away much the spiritual side of the Way and trade it for secular, subjective reason against anyone who disagrees. Being Christlike is more than rebuking the Pharisees or spreading the truth. If you can feel the Kristos/kingdom of God within you, there is reason to increase your religious tolerance and expand your knowledge of the world. Less arguments while keeping more respect and reverence.
My only hope is that if your religious beliefs end up to be incorrect or misleading, there is nowhere to run but into reflection, or my favorite, meditation. That’s how after many years of study about comparative religions, there is not one that is correct. I remain agnostic, but the mysteries will reveal to me soon enough. Pater imón, abwun…
We’re actually going off the topic, all I say is that Dr. Wood is but a mislead Christian. If he would have had a chance to grow spiritually in the future, he would have no longer the audacity to expose Islam—he would’ve been an Orientalist. Talk about a lower form of seeking God.
Kmak wrote:
Can you name five good things Wood has said about Islam?
If by good you mean true, there are many more than five. He has exposed it as a false religion many times, much more than five.
If it is true, then it is good.
Temple: If by good you mean true…
No, by good I mean positive qualities.
Temple: If it is true, then it is good.
The Holocaust is true. Therefore, the Holocaust is good. You are not very good at logic.
Exposing the Holocaust was good, but it itself was evil.
Exposing Islam as false is a good thing.
Temple: Exposing the Holocaust was good, but it itself was evil.
Exposing Islam as false is a good thing.
I asked you specifically to list five good things Wood has said about Islam. The fact that you can’t name even one good thing Wood has said about Islam speaks volumes. Both of you are trash.
Carl wrote:
Keep holding on to your dogma while I keep mine.
What is your dogma? you have none. Later you wrote that you are agnostic.
We both know who is under ad-Dajjal’s spell.
I know that I am not since I believe the entire passage of 1 John 2:18-27 and 2 John 6-7, etc.
You take a phrase out of context.
You don’t know what transcendence is, since it appears you reject the Deity of Christ and the Trinity. You cannot know the true God without Christ, the eternal Son of God.
John 14:6
” . . . no one comes to the Father except through Me.” Jesus said
You cannot know the holy and transcendent Father God without the Son, which is what 1 John 2:18-27 teaches.
You bring nothing but intellectual dishonesty to one who is spiritually upright.
The Christos is not God Almighty, but a power descended from Him. Jesus himself says there will be not a Christos after him, only false ones. That’s ad-Dajjal that you are clinging to without even knowing it!
I must apologize: agnostic by not holding on to a particular religion or faith, but a gnostic to seek the truth found beyond all faiths: abandon all religion and surrender unto me (you know where this comes from?)
Yes, no one comes to the Father except Jesus—a reply to St. Thomas regarding how to know the hodos. Do not quote John 14 out of context—you were not a witness to that event unfolding in ~30 AD. But Jesus is already gone from this Earth to God knows where (Ouranon, Rozabal, reincarnated as someone else?). What he left to humanity is what he taught.
You care too much about holiness. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder—do not be objective too quickly. Care for your own holiness first then others, it seems you do not actually have the God within you.
Again, trading spirituality for intellectual dishonesty.
Carl’s
Verbal gobblygook
Jesus said, “ Unless you believe that I am, you will die in your sins“
John 8:24
John 1:1
John 20:28
Satanic Dajjal is also all who deny Jesus’ crucifixion and resurrection.
Jesus said Peter was temporarily acting Satanic (& thinking like Satan) by trying to stop Jesus AS MESSIAH from going to the cross. It is Satanic and human (man’s interest), not God’s.
Islam, being Pelagian on steroids (believing mankind is innocent and not sinners from conception/ birth and can pull himself up by himself and disciple and good works, etc.) is the ultimate humanistic religion and as a result of being purely human, is also Satanic.
Mark 8:29-33
29 And He continued by questioning them, “But who do you say that I am?” Peter *answered and *said to Him, “You are the Christ.” 30 And He warned them to tell no one about Him.
31 And He began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders and the chief priests and the scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again. 32 And He was stating the matter plainly. And Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him. 33 But turning around and seeing His disciples, He rebuked Peter and *said, “Get behind Me, Satan; for you are not setting your mind on God’s interests, but man’s.”
Still talking to a wall in a low-level environment. In the archi was the Śabda, “Be and it was”. The creative powers are endless.
Strawman & ad hominem argument. Islam, the way of Submission, is not Satanic as before in their prayers they cast out the accursed śaitān. Furthermore, “it appeared to them so”. Prophecies aside, it’s immoral—Jesus has to die again countless of times and no significant weight put down. You are far from grasping the reason why this all happened in the first place.
Begin with all the miracles, suspicion, intervention; where did it all come from?
“I died for all your sins” is enough evidence. Present your proof, if you are truthful.
I attest that you one of the worst of creatures who lost his own self for another.
By thr way, you cling to the Evangelium Marcom (intended for the general public) and Johanneum (intended for a Christian who full understanding of mystical application). I can feel your egotism, shut that for once and reflect for a while.
Kmak wrote:
I asked you specifically to list five good things Wood has said about Islam. The fact that you can’t name even one good thing Wood has said about Islam speaks volumes. Both of you are trash.
1. David W. agrees that Islam affirms the previous Scriptures – the Qur’an never says the text of the OT or NT has been corrupted.
2. He agrees that Islam affirms the virgin birth of Christ. (although Islam misinterprets the meaning of it)
3. He agrees that Islam affirms monotheism. (but rejection of the Deity of Christ and the Trinity makes Islamic Monotheism false. – Islam is closer to truth than Mormonism, but still outside of the true religion.
4. He agrees that Islam calls Jesus “Al Masih” (The Messiah), although Islam misinterprets the meaning and significance of the Messiah and His mission.
5. DW agrees that Islam calls Jesus “the Word of God” and “a spirit from God”, even though Islam misinterprets those terms that it got from the NT revelation. (through hearing it from various groups around the Arabian peninsula and into Jordan and Syria and Yemen, etc.)
I agree with those principles. The good that Islam has, it got from the previous true religions, but has twisted the meaning and application of them.
More gobbledygook from Carl.
Just saying “I cast out Satan” does make him actually be cast out. It is just your ritual words with no power.
True religion is not magic.
Only God has the power to say and create as in “Be, and it became” – Genesis chapter 1, Romans 4:17; Hebrews 11:3
You wrote: “you are the worst of creatures” – quoting Surah 98:6
Talk about egotism . . .
Praise God that the Bible never says that, even on unbelievers – they are sinners, but we are not better than them inherently and they are not worse than we are by creation.
Genesis 1:26-28 – all human beings are created in the image of God and have equal dignity. (but not necessarily equal in talents or intelligence or skills, etc.)
Colossians 2:12-15 – Christ has forgiven us of all our sins. The cross had atoning power and the resurrection proved that.
Whether I quote from Mark or John, or Luke or Matthew or Paul’s writings or Hebrews or James or Jude, etc. – all 27 documents of the NT are “God-breathed” and powerful. Hebrews 4:12
@Ken Temple
Question for you Ken, when you say christ has forgiven/died for your sins does that include the sin of choosing to not be a christian?
please answer when you have the time.
No, forgiveness is only for those who repent & trust in Christ as Savior and Lord.
= become a Christian
Acts 13:38-39
38 “Therefore, my friends, I want you to know that through Jesus the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you. 39 Through him everyone who believes is set free from every sin, a justification you were not able to obtain under the law of Moses.
the gospel of God . . .
Repent and believe in the gospel
Mark 1:14-15
Luke 24:46-47
repentance for the forgiveness of sins must be proclaimed to all the nations.
John 3:36
whoever will not be persuaded, the wrath of God abides on them
usually translated “whoever will not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him” John 3:36
“not obey” = ἀπειθῶν = refuses to be persuaded
@Ken Temple
“No, forgiveness is only for those who repent & trust in Christ as Savior and Lord.
= become a Christian”
So then that means he didn’t die for ALL sins after all then correct?
I did not write that Christ died for all sins of every person.
Rather, Christ died for all the sins of all the elect / chosen (all who have believed in Him and will believe in Him) (Romans 8:28-30; 33; Romans 9:6-24; Ephesians 1:3-14; 1 Peter 1:1-2
Ephesians 1:4-5 – elect by the Father – before creation
Ephesians 1:7 – redeemed by the blood of Christ, the forgiveness of sins
Ephesians 1:13 – applied when someone believes – “in Him, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation, having also believed, you were sealed in Him by the Holy Spirit . . .
Colossians 2:11-15 means for those who have trusted Him.
Colossians 1:2
to the saints and brethren who have faith
Colossians 2:6
Just as you received Christ Jesus the Lord, so also now walk in Him . . .
John 1:12-13
As many as have received Him, to them He gave the authority to become children of God
Christ died for the church
Ephesians 5:25
Acts 20:28
the church of God which He purchased with His own blood
the church = the people, not building
Christ died for and purchased some people from all nations, tribes, languages, people groups
Revelation 5:9
Revelation 7:9
@Ken Temple
But he didn’t die for ALL sins after all correct?
correct; only for all believers, past, present, and future believers
some from every people and nation and language and tribe were purchased / redeemed by the blood of the lamb for God.
Revelation 5:9
Colossians 2:13
says all of our sins = our = fellow believers, not unbelievers
If you don’t repent and trust in Christ as Savior, Lord, etc. – all that the NT says He is, you will die in your sins and go to hell.
13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,
14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.
Colossians 2:13-14
@Ken
“correct; only for all believers, past, present, and future believers”
In the past do you think from Adam to Moses believe in Jesus? They didn’t know Jesus, they didn’t worship Jesus, they didn’t worship a human, they only worship one God alone and Adam 1000% sure God is not Jesus.
If you mean all believers of the past, the Revelation of St. Paul should’ve been canon!
Forever a sinner, forever unworthy of the ouranos = samsāra.
“You have no power here… (i.e. over me; Théoden, Galadriel)”
Stauros/Rood has no more weight today, talk about letting history repeating itself for each gullible Christian convert.
As for your question “Both Christianity and Islam are false?”, neither are true nor false, objectively and subjectively. They are tests for a true seeker of anything. Same goes to other faiths, an experiment to bring yourself closer to God. It is up to the person to see what fits best. Question everything!
Rome was not built in a day, you know. The Way of the Heart and the Way of Submission are like two major schools of thought, while the sects are like branches or smaller schools.
Call my words gobbledygook, but I call them Sophia.
True Sophia (wisdom) is in Christ and the Bible.
“all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge are in Christ”
Colossians 2:3
@ Ken,
So, the alleged love of your god (John 2:16) is a conditional love only for those who become Christians?
I think you mean John 3:16
God so loved the world (of sinners from all nations – Revelation 5:9; 7:9)
Yes, only that repent and believe in Christ experience the love of God.
He offers His love, but if you don’t accept, it means you were not chosen or elect.
Ephesians 1:4-6
just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.
Yes, only those that repent and believe in Christ experience the love of God.
Romans 5:5
@ Ken
Then what is the basis for the Christian claim that the love of their god is superior for being unconditional?
https://www.desiringgod.org/articles/is-gods-love-unconditional
https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/justin-taylor/why-we-shouldnt-settle-for-gods-unconditional-love/