Double standards in Christian-Muslim polemics

Christian Bible scholar Thom Stark examines the weaknesses in Christian vs Muslim apologetics:

Christian apologists will argue that the Quran is full of contradictions and lies. On the the hand, Muslim apologists will argue that the Bible is full of contradictions and lies. And in point of fact, Muslims do a splendid job of pointing out precisely what those contradictions in the Bible are. It is much more difficult to find contradictions in the Quran, predominantly because it was written over a very short period of time and almost exclusively by one person; whereas, the Bible was written over a period upwards of a thousand years, at minimum by dozens of different authors. As a result, if internal coherency constitutes evidence for divine origins and inerrancy of a sacred text (as the Chicago inerrantists claim), then the Quan wins over the Bible hands down.

At this point, Christian apologists will begin a campaign of character assassination against Muhammad: he was a liar, he was violent, etc. Again, this introduces a double standard. After all, Moses (the alleged author of the Pentateuch) was a liar and an extraordinarily violent man. In fact, if the Bible is accurate, then Moses was exceedingly more violent than Muhammad. Moses killed women and children in the name of God, whereas Muhammad condemned the killing of women and children for any reason.

It does no good, either, to argue that many of the traditions of the Quran are dependant upon traditions from the Bible. The same thing is true of many of the traditions of the Bible. The story of the flood depends upon much older traditions, such as the Epic of Gilgamesh. The laws of Moses depend upon the earlier Code of Hammurabi. The vision of the “one like a son of man” in Daniel 7 borrows closely from the Ugaritic Baal cycle, and so on. Much of the Bible is a patchwork pastiche of broader ancient Near Eastern lore. Pointing out the differences between the Bible and these earlier traditions is irrelevant, since there are also differences between the Quranic traditions and their predecessors in the Bible.

Thom Stark, The Human Faces of God: What Scripture Reveals When It Gets God Wrong (And Why Inerrancy Tries To Hide It),  p. 57.



Categories: Atrocities, Bible, Islam, Qur'an

103 replies

  1. Double Standards exactly. That’s why a non-fundamentalist/inerrantist approach is called for, call it liberal, universalist, agnostic …

    Liked by 1 person

  2. Reblogged this on Blogging Theology and commented:

    My take from this is that Christians do not have any strong arguments against Islam! SubhanAllah!

    Like

  3. Why Inerrancy Tries To Hide It)

    Inerrancy does not try to hide it.

    Since Islam also has its own doctrine of Inspiration and Inerrancy about the Qur’an, there is no double standard. (but it comes too late, 600 years too late; after previous Scriptures already established as true and unshakable)

    Inerrancy is based on the doctrine of Inspiration and the Presupposition that God is the creator of all things, and does miracles, inspires prophets and apostles and books, and cannot lie.

    God cannot lie – Titus 1:2

    God does not lie – Hebrews 6:18

    Like

    • Bible doesn’t claim to be inspired or from God. Its a collection of diverse writings by many people over 1000 years.

      “God cannot lie – Titus 1:2” – but forged letters do. Like this one!

      Liked by 3 people

      • Bible doesn’t claim to be inspired or from God.

        Yes it certainly does.

        Exodus 19-20 (Ten Commandments)
        Exodus 24:12
        Exodus 32:16 – “God’s work, God’s writing engraved on tablets”
        Deuteronomy 5:22
        Deuteronomy 30-31
        Psalm 19
        Psalm 119

        2 Timothy 3:15-16
        verse 15 = OT
        verse 16 = expanded to “all Scripture”, includes all of NT by principle
        2 Peter 1:19-21
        2 Peter 3:16 – all of Paul’s writings are “Scripture”, equal to rest

        John 17:8 – the word of the Father given to Jesus, given to disciples, apostles

        John 14:25-26 and 15:26 and 16:12-13 – Jesus promised to give the Holy Spirit to the disciples to guide them into all the truth and so be able to write the rest of the Scriptures.

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      • What a joke. None of those verses say the Bible is inspired.

        Not one!

        Liked by 1 person

      • @ Ken

        Notice, thing like the 10 Commandments were things God actually wrote. Not someone writing about the time He wrote them. As I said in my article:

        ” The Torah and Gospel are the revelations that were actually dictated by God Himself. Although books in the Bible may contain some of what these Scriptures contained, they are not what is being referred to in the Quranic verses.

        Here is an example using Islam (emphasis ours):

        “Narrated Ibn `Abbas: The Prophet (ﷺ) was hiding himself in Mecca and used to recite the (Qur’an) in a loud voice. When the pagans heard him they would abuse the Qur’an and the one who brought it, so God said to His Prophet: ‘Neither say your prayer aloud, nor say it in a low tone’ (17.110).”[13]

        The bolded part is Scripture in the story. This one verse that is just revealed is part of a whole chapter of the Qur’an that is 111 verses long. All 111 verses are revealed by God but in this incident, only this verse is revealed. Now imagine instead of that little part being the Qur’an, Muslims started saying the whole story is the Qur’an (i.e. the entire hadith above). That’s what the book known as the Bible is.”\

        https://quranandbibleblog.wordpress.com/2019/02/24/corruption-of-the-scriptures-part-i-does-islam-confirm-the-bible-as-a-scripture-from-god/

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    • Kennywise: “Inerrancy does not try to hide it.”

      Then proceeds to talk about Islam, instead of proving how “Inerrancy does not try to hide it.” 🙄🤦‍♂️

      Also, using the “it came ### years later” argument, we can conclude that the Bible is false since it clearly copied, as Thom Stark admits, from the Ugaritic Baal cycle in Daniel 7 (a fact that none of the apologists can explain).

      Liked by 3 people

  4. As God uses nature and the things within it to depict spiritual things in visions it would be surprising if there was no overlap with pagan depictions.

    They are both using natural phenomena to depict spiritual realities.

    God is dependant on nature to get his message across because he is speaking to humans. Why should he not use nature to communicate spiritual truths?

    Pagans are dependant on nature to visualize their beliefs because their gods are part of this nature and operate within it.

    Why is there a dearth of symbolic vision in Islam?

    Has Allah got no imagination?

    The things that Mohammed saw in his night vision do they actually exist as they are described?

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    • Wow! So after Iggy saw the “proof” that he wanted, he simply brushes it aside as no big deal! Hmmm, how strange!

      So lets get this straight. “Yahweh” could have used any number of ways to “depict spiritual things in visions” but he decided instead to copy almost exactly a common pagan motif. He depicts himself as an old man. He depicts his throne like its a wheelchair (of course, it probably represented something like a chariot). He talks about beasts rising from the sea, like Yamm. He depicts the “son of man” as a storm rider, lik Baal. Isn’t it ironic that Baal worship was discouraged as an abomination in the Bible and yet “Yahweh” couldn’t imagine some other kind of “vision” and instead borrowed one from the Baal myth?

      Oh and I love this statement: “God is DEPENDENT on nature…” Heresy alert!

      Seriously Iggy, how stupid and blind are you? Serious question…

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  5. I am sure riding horses and climbing ladders in the sky are not hard to find in pagan mythology.

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    • 😂😂😂 “Riding horses and climbing ladders”? Which “ladder” did Muhammad (pbuh) climb you ignoramus?

      Besides, we’re talking about why your Yahweh couldn’t come up with his own unique “vision” and instead had to plagiarize one from Canaanite paganism. Stay focused Iggy.

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      • The mythology of seven heavens is ancient — at least as old as ancient Babylonia. Originally, the number may have been taken from the celestial bodies that are nearest to earth, including those planets visible to the naked eye: the moon, Mercury, Venus, Mars, the Sun, Jupiter, and Saturn.

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      • So you deflected and moved the goalpost again after your first attempt didn’t work?

        Ancient Babylon had a cosmology that included a dome above earth. Sounds familiar? It should, because it’s in the Bible.

        In contrast, the seven heavens in Islam are a matter of the unseen. Furthermore, we can say that the seven heavens concept was revealed to all people through their prophets, since prophets would have been sent to all people, not just one particular group. Ironically, this also shows the influence of pagan mythology on the Bible. Pagan gods like El and Baal were tribal gods, just like Yahweh is depicted in the Bible.

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    • @Erasmus

      Aside from what QB already said on the matter concerning the “ladder” I feel compelled to ask, since you identified ladders in the sky as pagan imagery doesn’t that reflect poorly on the bible with the passage concerning Jacobs ladder? And before you mention it, yes I know the ladder Jacob( Alayhis Salam) saw was in a dream. Doesn’t change the fact that you identified such imagery as pagan.

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  6. Faiz always starts whining about deflection when he gets a taste of his own medicine. Seen it all before.

    He is so predictable.

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    • Lol, my “own medicine”? How’s that, Iggy? Whereas I showed your Bible’s direct dependence on earlier pagan myths and got you to inadvertently admit that your god is “dependent on nature”, you failed to provide a similar example in Islam.

      Tell me. If Islam’s view of the seven heavens was dependent on the Babylonian myth, where’s the dome in Islamic sources? We have a dome in the Bible but not in the Quran or authentic hadiths. Why is that?

      And congratulations on your self-fulfilled prophecy. Everyone knows Christians deflect when confronted with the uncomfortable facts about the Bible. Christians like you know you will have to deflect. And thus, you would know that you would be called out for it, because it’s just not a reasonable way to respond to criticisms of the Bible.

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      • When people think of mythological horses, Pegasus, the white winged stallion sired by Poseidon, is one of the very first to come to mind. After helping the Greek hero Bellerophon defeat the Chimera, Zeus transformed him into a constellation and gave him a place in the sky. Pegasus is one of the most instantly recognizable mythical creatures in the West, appearing in countless paintings, poems, songs, books, and films.

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      • 🤣🤣 Iggy is still desperately trying to justify Yahweh’s poor imagination!

        The fact is that in the authetic sources, Al-Buraq is never described as a “horse” or “stallion” but rather as a “beast” that was smaller than a mule (some translations say horse) but bigger than a donkey. Nor do the sources say anything about “wings”. They also state that it’s ears were large. So, it was not a flying horse like Pegasus. Rather, it was a mysterious creature that could travel long distances very quickly. This was done by it’s strides, not by its “wings”. In fact, the title “Buraq” may be from “baraqa” which refers to the “glitter” of “lightning”.

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  7. How do you know it doesn’t have a dome Faiz?

    “In contrast, the seven heavens in Islam are a matter of the unseen.”

    An invisible dome for an invisible heaven?

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    • 😂😂 There we have it folks! Iggy wants me to prove that there isn’t a “dome” above the earth! It’s easy Iggy. Just look at a picture of the earth from space. Do you see any dome there, you idiot?

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      • Didn’t see any gates and gatekeepers last time I looked either, lol.

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      • Lol, what “gates”? You mean in Paradise…which doesn’t exist in the natural world? Seriously Iggy, did your mother drop you on your head when you were a child? Or did you inhale paint fumes as a child? Maybe you have a crayon in your brain like Homer Simpson.

        You know why there can’t be a dome above earth, you silly clown? The earth would have to be flat! 🤣

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  8. “We have a dome in the Bible ”

    The word dome does not occur in the kjv.

    Why do you need gates and gatekeepers between these invisible islamic heavens?

    At each of the seven heavens, the Prophet accompanied by Jibril, encounters a gate and a watcher. At the gate of the lowest heaven, Jibril asks the gate-keeper to open the gate.

    Smells like pagan mythology to me.

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  9. Maybe I need a more powerful telescope to see all them gates, watchers or whatever.

    Oxford Islamic Studies Online:

    ” Then Muhammad was shown a ladder, which he climbed with Gabriel up to the Gate of Watchers in heaven, where he met Jesus, John the Baptist , Joseph , Idris , Aaron , Moses, and Abraham. Muslims debate whether this journey was physical or mystical in nature.”

    Lookee here a ladder. Faiz was wrong.

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    • Why didn’t Mohammed do all this during the day and put on a nice show for everybody?

      Better than boring fireworks.

      Like

    • Faiz must think it was physical because the heavens are in the sky that we can look at from the earth’s surface. It must have been one hell of a long ladder to reach up there.

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      • Lol, Iggy still thinks there was a ladder but can’t provide one authentic Islamic source to prove it.

        Maybe Elijah could have sent his chariot pulled by fiery horses?

        “As they were walking along and talking together, suddenly a chariot of fire and horses of fire appeared and separated the two of them, and Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind.”

        Oh what’s this? Yet another pagan motif!

        Like

    • 🤣 Iggy with his desperate Google searches…

      As I said, there are no authentic sources such as Bukhari or Muslim which mention a “ladder”. Ibn Kathir mentions numerous narrations about it, only one of which specifically mentions a “ladder”. Secular scholars may assume a ladder was present because the word “Miraj” can mean both Ascension or ladder. We simply don’t know how he ascended. In fact, authentic narrations in Bukhari suggest that Muhammad and Gabriel ascended together while riding Al-Buraq. So again, there is nothing in the sources to definitively conclude that a ladder was present.

      Keep trying Iggy. You’re bound to get one right by accident. 😂

      Like

      • Probably many words but few facts as usual.

        The usual vagueness.

        Par for the course.

        You can’t even tell if it was a real or a mystical event.

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      • Hahahaha, so Iggy admits he has no proof? Par for the course. Many words but few facts as usual.

        Um, we do know that it was a physical event, you clown. 😂 Maybe you should stop relying on Sheik Google to learn about something you know nothing about.

        Liked by 1 person

      • This is what an authentic source looks like Iggy, in case you didn’t realize with your kindergarten-level education:

        “Then a white animal which was smaller than a mule and bigger than a donkey was brought to me.” (On this Al-Jarud asked, “Was it the Buraq, O Abu Hamza?” I (i.e. Anas) replied in the affirmative). The Prophet (ﷺ) said, “The animal’s step (was so wide that it) reached the farthest point within the reach of the animal’s sight. I was carried on it, and Gabriel set out with me till we reached the nearest heaven.” (Sahih Bukhari: https://sunnah.com/bukhari/63/113)

        Now, its possible (Allah knows best) that after reaching the first heaven, going to the subsequent levels was done via a ladder or staircase. The sources don’t say. The above hadith simply says “ascended”.

        The bottom line is that no authentic source, either the Quran or the authentic hadiths going back the Prophet, mention any “ladder” at all. Perhaps later interpreters simply assumed a ladder was involved.

        Liked by 2 people

      • ” specifically mentions a “ladder”. Secular scholars may assume a ladder was present because the word “Miraj” can mean both Ascension or ladder.”

        That’s convenient, and strange.
        Two very different meanings.
        The usual hadith pick and mix shell game.

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      • Oy vei, the level of stupid you are currently exhibiting hasn’t even been discovered yet by scientists. 🤦‍♂️

        Do you know what the purpose of a ladder is, you intellectual midget? To…ascend…to a higher location?

        Words can have multiple meanings in different contexts, knucklehead. The same is true for any language.

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      • “That’s convenient, and strange.
        Two very different meanings”

        I’m amazed that now they will have to explain BASIC linguistic operandi to you

        Liked by 2 people

      • @ Erasmus

        “That’s convenient, and strange.
        Two very different meanings.
        The usual hadith pick and mix shell game.”

        🤦🤦🤦 Or…words have multiple meanings? Seriously why do you insist on looking stupid? From the Hans Wehr dictionary what do you know we have:

        the place of ascent, (route of) ascent, ladder, stairs, (the midnight journey to the seven heavens (made by Muhammad)

        https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/roots/Ayn-Ra-Jiim.html

        Liked by 1 person

  10. “It doesn’t matter stupid. ”

    Which text are you talking about?

    Let’s get down to brass tacks.

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    • Genesis 1:15:

      “And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.”

      The word “firmament” is from the Hebrew word “raqiya” which Gesenius’ Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon defines as:

      “the firmament of heaven, spread out like a hemisphere above the earth’.

      You know what a “hemisphere” is right, Iggy? Maybe not. They teach that to children in elementary school, so maybe you don’t know.

      Also, this “firmament” had water above and below it, as stated in Genesis 1:7:

      “And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament:”

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      • Firmanent means heavens or sky.

        Hemisphere is a scientific technical term.

        All firmanent means in Genesis is the sky immediately above the earth, or what we could also refer to as the heavens.

        I still don’t see where the dome comes in to the equation.

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      • 😂 Pathetic! No idiot, “firmament” doesn’t mean “heaven or sky”. There’s an entirely different word for those: shamayim. But “firmament” means a solid object. The sky is not solid.

        Also, in which “sky” is there water above and below? The ancients believed there was an “ocean” in the sky that was separate from the oceans on Earth. The author of Genesis obviooslyt believed this as well.

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      • @ Erasmus

        The dome comes into the equation as that is its classical understanding:

        “STANDARD Hebrew lexica and a number of modern biblical scholars have defined the raqia
        (fyqr, “firmament”) of Gen 1:6-8 as a solid dome over the earth…The historical evidence, however, which we will set forth in concrete detail, shows that the raqia was originally conceived of as being solid and not a merely atmospheric expanse. The grammatical evidence from the OT, which we shall examine later, reflects and confirms this conception of solidity. The basic historical fact that defines the meaning of raqia in Genesis 1 is simply this: all peoples in the ancient world thought of the sky as solid. This concept did not begin with the Greeks.”

        Click to access Seely-Firmament-WTJ.pdf

        ” The Hebrews regarded the earth as a plain or a hill figured like a hemisphere, swimming on water. Over this is arched the solid vault of heaven. To this vault are fastened the lights, the stars. So slight is this elevation that birds may rise to it and fly along its expanse.”

        http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/4684-cosmogony#2736

        Basically, it looks something like this:

        Liked by 1 person

  11. “” Then Muhammad was shown a ladder, which he climbed with Gabriel up to the Gate of Watchers in heaven,”

    Faiz tried his takiya on me but it didn’t work.

    Did you get some brownie points for lying to the kuffar Faiz?

    Get an extra virgin.

    Like

    • LOL!! First, it’s “taqiyya”. My goodness. At least learn how to spell the term you think you know about.

      So, no authentic sources then, Iggy? So you give in?

      Ok, so back to your god’s pathetic imagination. Was he a failed novelist or something, that he had to rip-off pagan mythology?

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      • Riding to heaven on a mule or donkey is not very original is it?

        I think the pagans thought of that one before the hadith writer did.

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      • 😂😂 Oh really? Which pagans thought of that? You gave us the example of Pegasus, which I already shot down…get it? Shot down? 🤣

        In contrast, your god couldn’t think of a better and original “vision” to show Daniel. He had to plagiarize from the Canaanites.

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      • He didn’t rip off pagan mythology.

        He used nature to express spiritual truths.

        The pagans also did. So what.

        Like gates and watchers that are part of the islamic other-worldly seven “heavens”, borrowed from pagan mythology.

        Oxford Islamic Studies Online:

        Then Muhammad was shown a ladder, which he climbed with Gabriel up to the Gate of Watchers in heaven, where he met Jesus, John the Baptist , Joseph , Idris , Aaron , Moses, and Abraham.

        \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\

        The Egyptians believed that in the netherworld, the Duat, there were various gates, doors and pylons crossed every night by the solar boat of the sun-god Ra and by the souls directed to the world of the dead.

        The Egyptians were desperately afraid of these netherworld “watchers,” and a significant amount of time was spent determining how to placate the judgment of Osiris and his 42 demons. The worship of Isis—the sister-wife of Osiris—thus became integral. As one of the most important goddesses of ancient mythology, Isis was venerated by the Egyptians, Greeks, and the Romans, as the “goddess of .

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      • 😂😂 It is hilarious to watch you desperately jump from one failed attempt to another.

        Get this through your head, you brainless clod. You’re about as smart as fossilized dinosaur feces. 😂 Your god COPIED a pagan motif. He wasn’t “using nature”. He was using an already well-known story. That is called PLAGIARISM.

        Like

      • @ Erasmus

        Out of curiosity who made this connection, you’re claiming?

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  12. “Um, we do know that it was a physical event, you clown.”

    So the horse was physical?

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    • It wasn’t a “horse” you idiot. Try to focus. The animals pulling the chariot of fire that carried Elijah were horses. LOL!!

      Yes, it was physical in the same way Gabriel is “physical”. However, the rules of nature didn’t apply to Al-Buraq or to the physical journey of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). He was physically transported.

      Liked by 1 person

  13. ““Um, we do know that it was a physical event, you clown.”

    And the seven heavens that it flew up to.

    Are they physical?

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    • Iggy seems to think that a physical journey means every place that was visited exists in the natural world. (smacks forehead)

      Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was taken with his body during the MIRACULOUS event. Miracles don’t follow the rules of nature. The prophet visited Paradise, which doesn’t exist in this world, but it is a physical place, just like hell.

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  14. I really think we need to start cataloging Iggy’s unbelievably stupid comments. He has made some whoppers in the past. I think it should be titled “The Wisdom of Erasmus (aka Ignoramus)”. We got the whopper about the dinosaurs in Noah’s time, rabbits chewing cud, the 6,000 year old earth, Yahweh being “dependent on nature”…

    Liked by 2 people

  15. Btw my favorite apologist is finaly on twitter now: Zakir Hussain

    Nice!

    Liked by 2 people

  16. @Stewjo004

    I just googled it and got these results:

    Stargates, Ancient Rituals, And Those Invited Through The …
    thewatcherfiles.com/stargates/part-three.htm
    The Egyptians were desperately afraid of these netherworld “watchers,” and a significant amount of time was spent determining how to placate the judgment of Osiris and his 42 demons. The worship of Isis—the sister-wife of Osiris—thus became integral. As one of the most important goddesses of ancient mythology, Isis was venerated by the Egyptians, Greeks, and the Romans, as the “goddess of …

    Gate deities of the underworld – Wikipedia
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gate_deities_of_the_underworld
    The Egyptians believed that in the netherworld, the Duat, there were various gates, doors and pylons crossed every night by the solar boat of the sun-god Ra and by …

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  17. Paul Williams wrote:

    What a joke. None of those verses say the Bible is inspired.

    Not one!

    Yes they do. Putting them all together in a consistent theologically sound way, they do INDEED teach that.

    You are too lazy to study them all together, taking into account progressive revelation from OT to NT (the true Injeel).

    Even the Qur’an affirms that ALL of the NT, the true Injeel, is guidance and light and “sent down” from Allah.

    So, you are wrong.

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    • No Ken is you that are wrong, and you know it.

      You cant fool ex-christians like me who are very familiar with your thinking about the Bible. Its full whole holes and deception.

      The Bible as a canon, as a Scripture, does not claim to be the Word of God or inspired anywhere. Your feeble patchwork quotes fail to do the job.

      Like

      • Since you left the Christian faith and now are some kind of an “on and off Muslim” and sometimes “free Monotheist”; this means you never had the Holy Spirit (the 3rd person of the Trinity), according to your worldview – because in your worldview now, there is no such thing or being as “the Holy Spirit” – therefore you were never born again (John 3:1-21), therefore, you were never a true Christian.

        A true Christian has the Holy Spirit and the Spirit testifies to the self-authenticating nature of Scripture (OT & NT, the true Injeel).

        1 Corinthians 2:14-16

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      • Lol, isn’t it amazing how Christians can simply declare who had the holy spirit and who didn’t? It’s utterly unfalsifiable, so there is no way of proving or disproving it. Very clever…for deceitful snakes like Kennywise that is.

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      • Islam does not believe in the Holy Spirit, the 3rd person of the Trinity, therefore according to your belief; “former Christians” who turn away to Islam, could not have had the Holy Spirit. (logically according to your Islamic belief.)

        God warns people to not drift away in unbelief and apostasy. Hebrews 2:1; 3:12-14
        those who turn away, are turning away from the truth, while not actually being born again yet into the truth. They were on the path, in the process, but turned away –

        Judgement will be severe.

        Hebrews 10:26-31

        It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the Living God.

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      • 🤦‍♂️ First of all, Muslims believe the “holy spirit” is Gabriel.

        Second, my point was how stupid Christians are. Imagine this scenario. I assume you think that someone like James White has the “holy spirit”. You believe this for a long time, but then you wake up one morning and find out that White has left Christianity and become a Muslim or a Buddhist or something. Based on your comment about Paul, I would assume your reaction to White would be “well, he obviously never had the holy spirit”! You see how you can move the goalpost and avoid having to prove your assumptions? It’s unfalsifiable, which is code for “it’s total BS”.

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      • Therefore, you are wrong.

        You are not allowed to judge God’s Holy Word / Scripture (OT and NT) and the arguments for it as God’s Word, as a “patchwork” or “full of holes and deception”

        It judges you; you do not judge it.

        Hebrews 4:12-13

        For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. 13 And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.

        It pierces into your motives and intentions and imaginations of your heart. (see Genesis 6:5 and Mark 7:20-23 also)

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      • No, I think we’ll continue to judge this confused and contradictory mess you call “scripture”, thank you very much. And who cares if this mess “judges” anyone?

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      • No, you are not allowed to judge it; it judges you. The Spirit and the Word are invisible and judging you.

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      • Don’t care. I will judge it all I want and there’s nothing you or your mangod can do about it.

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  18. “😂 Pathetic! No idiot, “firmament” doesn’t mean “heaven or sky”. There’s an entirely different word for those: shamayim. But “firmament” means a solid object. The sky is not solid.”

    Genesis 1 v 20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

    Birds can’t fly inside a solid object.

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    • 😂😂 Oy vei! Dummy, the “dome” would be a solid object. Think of it like this. Did you ever see the Simpsons movie? A giant dome was placed over the town of Springfield. Now, birds could fly WITHIN the dome but they wouldn’t be able to fly BEYOND it. Get it?

      The dome contained the heavens, all the constellations and stars as well, as well as the “sky” where birds could fly.

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  19. Still no evidence for the “Dome” I see.

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    • 🤣🤣 Yeah, besides the lexicons and scholarly evidence…apparently Iggy knows better.

      I’m waiting to see the evidence of the “water” above the firmament. Where is this “water”? Somewhere in space perhaps? 🤔

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      • I take the text itself first before I look at so-called scholars.

        The evidence from within the text is against it.

        And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.

        There doesn’t have to be just one firmament.

        There is one which divides the waters and the other firmament is the expanse of boundless space.

        You are, as usual, just making assumptions based on your bias.

        Like

      • It looks to me that the writer in Genesis is not describing the exact location of the sun, moon and stars, but their location as they appear to us, which is in the sky above the earth.

        You are looking at the whole thing too abstractly.

        All these things appear to be in the sky directly above us and that is where Genesis 1 is coming from.

        Like

      • “I take the text itself first before I look at so-called scholars.”

        LOL!! The irony…

        First , Iggy says this, but then two sentences later, he says this:

        “There doesn’t have to be just one firmament.”

        WOW! So, you “take the text” but then…don’t take the text and add your own spin to it? (scratches head). I’m confused, Iggy. Which is it?

        Where does your “text” mention another firmament? It only mentions one, you lying snake!

        “You are, as usual, just making assumptions based on your bias.”

        Hahahaha, that’s rich! So, where’s that second phantom “firmament” in your “text”? Assumptions much?

        And you still didn’t answer the question. Where are the other “waters”? The ones below are the oceans. We know that. But where are the “waters” ABOVE the firmament?

        Like

      • “It looks to me that the writer in Genesis is not describing the exact location of the sun, moon and stars, but their location as they appear to us, which is in the sky above the earth.

        You are looking at the whole thing too abstractly.

        All these things appear to be in the sky directly above us and that is where Genesis 1 is coming from.”

        LOL, yes it “looks” that way to you since you have the luxury of knowing about modern astronomy, but the author of Genesis 1 lived in a culture that believed something else entirely.

        Like

  20. It is not a question of what the author of Genesis believed but how God chose to describe the creation of our world.

    Like

  21. Faiz: “Where does your “text” mention another firmament? It only mentions one, you lying snake!”

    OK, I can live with that.

    Lying snake? lol

    And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

    8And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

    Don’t we need some water for the clouds?

    It doesn’t say in what ratio the waters were divided to go above and below the firmament. Obviously most of it ended up below the firmament.

    Like

    • 😂😂 More “I see Jesus” from Mr. Iggy! Isn’t it amazing how you “take the text” over scholarly analysis, but then add your own twists again and again when it suits your purpose? Where does it say anything about water in the clouds, you lying snake? 😉 It says the waters are ABOVE the firmament, not part of it. Your desperation is showing yet again, Iggy. 🤣

      Like

  22. the firmament has already been defined as the heaven in verse 8:

    And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

    The firmament is the expanse of space immediately above the earth’s surface:

    And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.

    10And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.

    So the waters which were above the firmament on the second day probably moved down to become part of the firmament, or sky or heaven after the dry land appeared.

    Like

    • 😂 Even more “I see Jesus” and twisting of the text! The “seas” came from the waters that were BELOW the firmament. This is clearly stated in the text! So you still have not accounted for the waters ABOVE the firmament. Give it up Iggy. You’re desperate “I see Jesus” will not work.

      Like

      • Who said otherwise?

        I am just saying chronologically speaking the waters above the firmament became part of the firmament after the seas were formed.

        Why do we have to be told this explicitly?

        On what grounds?

        Like

      • On what grounds? So we don’t have pathetic crosstians picking and choosing how to interpret the text based on their selective use of scientific knowledge.

        Also, as Stew said, your text clearly differentiates between the water ABOVE and the waters BELOW. It doesn’t ANYTHING about the two coming together. You just made that up to save your vague text. So, I think we can conclude that your claim that you “take the text” is total BS. You take your opinion before the text. You seem to have a very high view of your personal and silly interpretations.

        Like

      • @ Erasmus

        Because “above” is different from “forming/in” the firmament.

        Liked by 1 person

  23. The waters above the firmament merged with the firmament at some point.

    That’s all I’m saying. The text doesn’t say this specifically.

    What’s your point?

    The four beasts are the Babylonian, Medo-Persian, Greek and Roman empires.

    I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.

    Where is the old man in a wheelchair with white hair?

    Like

    • Dumb-dumb, you’re adding to the text without providing any proof, yet you reject the scholarly definition of raqiah. Both are based on your opinion and driven by your desire to protect the “inerrant” Bible from its mistakes.

      Like

      • Like I said there is no stupid dome in my bible.

        Just cos some “scholar” says so.

        Like

      • 🤣 All scholars say that you idiot. And a “firmament” implies something solid. Plus, you still haven’t provided any proof for the second layer of water…except…wait for it…your baseless opinion that the waters combined with the lower layer. This stupid idea is not found in your Bible either, yet you had no trouble just accepting it. In contrast, that raqia represented a solid dome has been proven through scholarly studies. It is undeniable.

        Like

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