Muhammad owned slaves


Muhammad owned slaves (though he freed them all before he died).

Be careful what you disapprove of.

The Bible, the Qur’an, Aristotle, Buddhist scriptures, St Augustine, Montesquieu, Kant, Locke and so on all condoned slavery in one form or another. 

Personally I’m not defensive about this. All human beings are slaves of God anyway.

That’s the BIG reality.



Categories: Bible, Islam, Qur'an, Slavery, Tanakh, Unpopular views

106 replies

  1. Slavery was such an essential and deep rooted practice in the pre-Islamic times that it was just not practical to abolish it at once.

    L.D. Agate assigns the same reason for Paul and others in being ‘slow in condemnation’ of this institution;

    “… the immediate abolition or attempted abolition of slavery in Roman empire would probably have led to the collapse of the society.” (Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics, Edited by James Hasting, T & T Clark, London 2003 vol. 11 p.602 Art. Slavery (Christianity))

    L.D. Agate had to accept;

    “There is no explicit condemnation of slavery in the teaching of our Lord.” (Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics vol.11 p.602)

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    • The Prophet , may Allah bless him, was narrated to have said; “He who slaps his slave or beats him, the expiation for it is that he should set him free” (Sahih Muslim, Hadith 3130)

      “Master of a slave-woman; who teaches her good manners, educates her in the best possible way (the religion), manumits her and then marries her.” (Sahih Bukhari, Hadith 2358)

      Prophet Muhammad, may Allah bless him, listed three people who will get the double reward. One of them is;

      A large number of slaves were manumitted by the Prophet(As).

      Names of 22 of them are preserved in Kitab al-Tabaqat al-Kabir of Ibn Sa’d. 6 additional are recorded in Tarikh al-Tabari. Maududi after a detailed study said that number of slaves manumitted by the Prophet, may Allah bless him, is 63. His wife ‘Ayesha, may Allah be pleased with her, set 67 of them free. Another 70 slaves were liberated by al-‘Abbas, may Allah be pleased with him, the uncle of the Prophet. The number of those manumitted by another close companion ‘Abdul Rahman bin ‘Awf runs into thousands. (See Human Rights in Islam by Abu Al-A’la Maududi. Chapter 3, subsection 5)

      Abu Mas’ud al-Ansari reported: “When I was beating my servant, I heard a voice behind me (saying): Abu Mas’ud, bear in mind Allah has more dominance over you than you have upon him (i.e. that slave). I turned and (found him) to be Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him). I said: Allah’s Messenger, I set him free for the sake of Allah. Thereupon he said: Had you not done that, (the gates of) Hell would have opened for you, or the fire would have burnt you.” (Sahih Muslim, Hadith 3136)

      Abdullah Ibn Umar narrated that a man came to the Prophet, may Allah bless him, and asked: “Messenger of Allah! How often shall I forgive a servant?” He gave no reply, so the man repeated what he had said, but he still kept silent. When he asked a third time, he replied: “Forgive him seventy times daily.” (Abu Dawud, Hadith 5164 Classified as Sahih by Albani)

      The Prophet, may Allah bless him, said; “You should listen to and obey, your ruler even if he was an Ethiopian (negro) slave whose head looks like a raisin.” (Sahih Bukhari, Hadith 6609)

      Liked by 1 person

  2. He probably didn’t need slaves. He could have just set them free and paid them their wages if he needed labor.

    Liked by 1 person

    • I think he did realise them.

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    • Corndog: He probably didn’t need slaves. He could have just set them free and paid them their wages if he needed labor.

      If anyone knows what Muhammad(saw) did or did not need, it’s some random guy on the internet.

      Liked by 1 person

      • @ KMAK
        KMAk: If anyone knows what Muhammad(saw) did or did not need, it’s some random guy on the internet.

        How much gold and precious gifts came with Mary the Copt?

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      • Jinn and tonic: How much gold and precious gifts came with Mary the Copt?

        I don’t know. How much and what’s the relevance?

        Liked by 2 people

      • He got the equiv of a 1000 gold denars. Financially he prob. didn’t nedf slaves. At leadt I think that is the point.

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      • Jinn: He got the equiv of a 1000 gold denars. Financially he prob. didn’t nedf slaves. At leadt I think that is the point

        How do you know 1000 dinars is enough to abolish slavery as well as finance a state and an army?

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      • Not talking about slavery in general. Just the man and his household. Are you saying that army and budding state was financed through slaves and what is the evidence for this?

        1000 gold denars =almost 9 lbs = about 250,000$ today- Would have been a very princely sum bank then.

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      • Jinn: Not talking about slavery in general. Just the man and his household. Are you saying that army and budding state was financed through slaves and what is the evidence for this? 1000 gold denars =almost 9 lbs = about 250,000$ today- Would have been a very princely sum bank then.

        Your argument is that Muhammad didn’t need slaves because he had money. But didn’t one need money to afford slaves in the first place?

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      • He could have freed his slaves and paid wages if he was in need of labour.

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      • Jinn: He could have freed his slaves and paid wages if he was in need of labour.

        But you need money to pay for labor, and if you have money, why not just buy slaves?

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      • Jinn: He could have freed his slaves and paid wages if he was in need of labour.

        What if one was in need of a long term investment?

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      • Jinn: He could have freed his slaves and paid wages if he was in need of labour.

        What if he was in need of a long term investment? What if buying slaves was the equivalent of buying stocks/bonds in the 7th century?

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      • KMAK: What if he was in need of a long term investment? What if buying slaves was the equivalent of buying stocks/bonds in the 7th century?

        Investment? Can you elaborate?

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  3. OK. Where can I read about this?

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    • @ Corndog

      You can read it in any biography of his. This is a list of all his slaves before freeing them:

      An Account of the Messenger of God’s Slave Concubines
      They were Mariyah bt. Sham’un, the Copt, and Rayhanah bt. Zayd al-Quraziyyah

      An Account of the Messenger of God’s Freedmen
      Among them were [the following): Zayd b. Harithah and his son Usamah b. Zayd, whose account we have mentioned before…

      Thawban The Messenger of God set him free but he remained with [the Prophet] until his death…

      Shuqran. He was from Abyssinia and his name was Salih b. ‘Adi. (The authorities] disagree about his affair. It is reported on the authority of ‘Abdallah b. Dawud al-Khuraybi that the Messenger of God inherited him from his father…1 It is reported on the authority of Muab al-Zubayri, who said that Shuqran belonged to ‘Abd alRahman b. ‘Awf, that the latter presented him to the Prophet.

      Ruwayfi` He was Abu Rafi’, The Messenger of God’s freedman. His name was Aslam, [but] some state that his name was Ibrahim. [Authorities] differ about his affair. Some state that he belonged to al-‘Abbas b. ‘Abd al-Muttalib and that the latter presented him to the Messenger of God, who set him free… while
      others state… Khalid b. Said donated his share of him to the Messenger of God , who set him free….

      Salman al-Farisi surnamed Abu ‘Abdallah, who was from the inhabitants of the village of Isbahan. It is said that he was [actually] from the village of Ramhurmuz,952 fell into captivity at the hands of some people of Kalb, and was sold to some Jews in the district of Wadi al-Qura. He made a written contract with his Jewish master that he should pay a certain sum as his ransom, and on the payment thereof be free. The Messenger of God and the Muslims helped him [to meet his contractual obligations] until he was set free…

      Safinah,the freedman of the Messenger of God . He belonged to Umm Salamah, who set him free on the condition that he should serve the Messenger of God during his lifetime…

      Anasah, nicknamed Abu Musarrab or Abu Masruh, was a slave boy [born among the Arabs] of al-Sarat [The people] used to ask his permission [to see] the Messenger of God when the latter sat [to receive the visitors]. He was present at Badr, Mud, and all the expeditions of the Messenger of God….

      Abu Kabshah.His name was Sulaym. It is said that he was a slave boy [born among the Arabs] of Mecca. It is [also] said that he was a slave boy [born among the Arabs] of the land of Daws. The Messenger of God bought him and set him free. He was present at Badr, Uhud, and other expeditions with the Messenger of God….

      Abu Muwayhibah.It is said that he was a slave boy [born among the Arabs] of Muzaynah, who was bought by the Messenger of God and set free.

      Rabah al-Aswad.[The people] used to obtain his permission [in order to see] the Messenger of God.

      Faclalah, the freedman of the Messenger of God, who reportedly [later] settled in Syria. Mid’am,9’ the freedman of the Messenger of God. He was a slave of Rifa’ah b. Zayd al-Judhami,who presented him to the Messenger of God. He was killed at Wadi al-Qura on the day that (1781] the Messenger of God halted there. He was hit by an arrow from an unknown quarter which killed him.

      Abu Dumayrah…he was among those who fell to the Messenger of God’s lot during one of his expeditions and that [the Prophet] set him free and drafted a document to that effect…

      Yasar. He was, reportedly, a Nubian. He fell to the Messenger of God’s lot during one of his expeditions, and he set him free

      Mihran.He narrated traditions from the Messenger of God. The Messenger of God also had a eunuch called Mabur,who was presented to him by al-Muqawqis…

      While the Messenger of God was laying siege to al-Ta’if, four slaves came out to him, whom he set free. Abu Bakrah was among them….

      Click to access Tabari_Volume_09.pdf

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      • Thanks, I’m just looking for a source that is acceptable. It’s just that every time something is brought up that is not in the Quran or Hadith it is rejected up front, they don’t have to take it, it is full of lies and fabrications so on and so forth. So to be consistent I’ll also take it only if it is from Hadith or Quran.

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    • A large number of slaves were manumitted by the Prophet(As).

      Names of 22 of them are preserved in Kitab al-Tabaqat al-Kabir of Ibn Sa’d. 6 additional are recorded in Tarikh al-Tabari. Maududi after a detailed study said that number of slaves manumitted by the Prophet, may Allah bless him, is 63. His wife ‘Ayesha, may Allah be pleased with her, set 67 of them free. Another 70 slaves were liberated by al-‘Abbas, may Allah be pleased with him, the uncle of the Prophet. The number of those manumitted by another close companion ‘Abdul Rahman bin ‘Awf runs into thousands. (See Human Rights in Islam by Abu Al-A’la Maududi. Chapter 3, subsection 5)

      Liked by 3 people

      • @ Omar

        Yeah, I always find it funny people tend to forget they were all freed at one point and mainly presented as gifts which was customary.

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      • @stewjo004
        @omar

        Thanks for the sources, I’ll look at it. Is that Tabari’s history or the Sira biography? The reason I ask is that in a conversation at speakers corner the Muslims said they accepted only Quran and Hadith. Interpretations and history are fine, but they didn’t necessarily accept them and said they contain many lies and fabrications.

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      • @ Corndog

        I can’t speak on Omar’s source but I posted Tabari’s history. While true not everything in these works is reliable, if just establishing dates or names of people (an example in this case who were free slaves of the Prophet(saw) there shouldn’t be an issue as one is not making rulings or points on matters of theology.

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      • OK. But is it in the Quran or Hadith or a source that does contain many lies and fabrications? Don’t know why they always use such bombastic language.

        Liked by 1 person

      • I mean a sour that *doesn’t* contain many lies and fabrications?

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      • @ Corndog

        I’ll save you some time, the Quran is not going to mention things of regarding Prophet Muhammad’s(saw) personal life like his children’s names or the number of wives etc. It is God talking to mankind about a variety of subjects.

        My question is what are you looking for and then maybe I can get you something a little more solid reference wise.

        PS

        They’re not really using “bombastic” language it just a fact these early bios aren’t completely reliable or don’t list a source as a lot of times as that wasn’t their intent when writing. They were just mostly trying to get a chronological sequence of events. If its things like history (this battle happened on August 16th according to Ibn Ishaq or like your question how many slaves did he own) cool no Muslim should have an issue as we’re pretty forgiving when it comes to things like that.

        When someone says, however: “Your Prophet(saw) did such and such so that means you Muslims can do such and such!”

        Now because a ruling is attempted to being made we become much more strict as this isn’t just a story but something that affects people’s lives as anything he says or does is binding upon us. In each of these individual stories, you would have to cross-reference each of the chains of narrators with books about them etc. to ensure authenticity. While it might seem tedious to a non-Muslim this is how we stop all these variant readings, forgeries, and lies like how certain religions have.

        Liked by 1 person

    • It’s easy accepts an unreliable source when it suits you. And reject reliable source when it’s embarrassing. That’s the methodology.

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  4. Corndog, i suggest you look into the sciences of hadith to grasp the meticulous criteria and methodologies applied to determine the credibility of sources, so as to understand how narrations are classed as reliable/unreliable. With this understanding, you’ll also understand what @stewjo004 is saying here.

    @stewjo004 has asked you a question: ” ….. what are you looking for and then maybe I can get you something a little more solid reference wise”

    Liked by 1 person

    • Thanks Omar. I understand. I didn’t write

      It’s easy accepts an unreliable source when it suits you. And reject reliable source when it’s embarrassing. That’s the methodology.

      But basically that’s sometimes what happens. They will mention stories from the SIrah or history, but then won’t accept it, if somebody else cites from the sirah. So I’m also asking only for Quran or Hadith because that’s what they accept without calling it full of lies and fabrications.

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      • @ Corndog

        One, you have yet to explain what you are looking to bring up. What that he(saw) had slaves? I’m failing to understand what you are attempting to argue that you require proof about.

        Next, these are ahadith in and of themself, some are weak, some are strong you look at each individual narration within the biography.

        Moving on, “embarrassing” has nothing to do with hadith criticism. It is literally a science with objective criteria. There are many “nice” stories that are rejected, examples:

        It was narrated that Sad bin Ubadah said:
        “I said: ‘O Messenger of Allah, what charity is best?’ He said: ‘Giving water to drink.'”

        Grade: Daif (weak)
        https://sunnah.com/ibnmajah/33/28

        Anas bin Malik narrated that the Messenger of Allah(ﷺ) said:
        “Be kind to your children, and perfect their manners.”

        Grade: Da’if (weak)

        https://sunnah.com/ibnmajah/33/15

        This has nothing to do with “Oh we like this hadith” and anybody who says that you can instantly say they’re retards that don’t know what they’re talking about like the gentlemen who impersonated you. The point is having objective standards before we change our lives and make rulings that Muslims must adhere to saying “God ordered this”.

        Liked by 2 people

      • @ Daniel

        One ignoring that Pipes doesn’t mean anything to anyone on the site and is a Zionist peddling propaganda so that morons like you will support/ die for Israel:

        https://islamophobianetwork.com/

        The 1,000,000$ question is, and? When have Muslims claimed there were not slaves during the Prophet’s (saw) time? This isn’t some magical source you morons one day found and is well known. Citing random people is not “evidence” and is just a case of fear-mongering to rile up rednecks in their trailers lying next to their sister/girlfriend.

        Liked by 1 person

      • @ Daniel

        As I thought about it more another reason Pipes (and by extension your) comment is stupid is the US STILL has slavery (gasp). Yes, it’s written in the Constitution’s 13th amendment that slavery is still permissible (emphasis mine):

        “Amendment XIII
        Section 1.
        Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, EXCEPT AS A PUNISHMENT for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

        Section 2.
        Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.”

        https://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/amendmentxiii

        Furthermore, there are more slaves NOW than at any point in human history:

        https://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/slaves-time-human-history-article-1.3506975

        “New slavery has two chief characteristics—it’s cheap and it’s disposable. Slaves today are cheaper than ever. In 1850, an average slave in the American South cost the equivalent of $40,000 in today’s money. Today a slave costs about $90 on average worldwide. (Source: Disposable People: New Slavery in the Global Economy

        https://www.freetheslaves.net/our-model-for-freedom/slavery-today/

        Liked by 1 person

  5. Like I said U didn’t write that comment, somebody used my username. What I’m asking is for a Hadith or even better Quran to say he freed all slaves.
    Yes, a guy at the corner said that even the best hadith books are “only” 95% true. And then some have different grades, I think he said they accept the first 2-3 grades.

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    • @ Corndo

      I know I was more insulting that person. If that’s what you’re asking, then what I originally posted is sufficient.

      Like

    • Attacking a person for quoting Muslims scholar does not make sense. The most important part was the quotes not Pipes. And you did exactly what Pipes wrote about Jonathan Brown. You used the same tactics. If Pipes quotes you, you will have other Muslims attacking him for what you wrote.

      It’s not that hard to find Quran and hadith. While you claim the sources are sufficient. Theirs are a lot more sources you did not quote.

      https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Qur%27an,_Hadith_and_Scholars:Slavery

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      • @ Daniel

        Lol, I don’t care what Hamza Yusuf says? 😂😂😂 He’s some Sufi with some basic schooling in Maliki fiqh. Man Pipes can piss on on his followers and tell them it’s raining.

        First off, there is NO scholar on planet Earth that says one can use weak hadith to establish theology or make a new ruling (guess what genius, when you say “Muslims, can torture/enslave/ rape insert whatever propaganda” you’re creating a ruling)

        The MOST it can be used for is supporting evidence (depending on why it’s classified as weak) or just to encourage people to do generic good stuff (note many scholars still debate this) Let’s look at actual scholarship now:

        So not that we’ve established you don’t know what you’re talking about on that topic. Let’s move to the rest of your idiotic statements.

        In Islamic law, a single scholar’s opinion means ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. A single opinion of a Sahaba (i.e Muhammad’s(saw) direct student) means nothing. We ONLY care about textual evidence from either the Quran or authentic hadith from Muhammad(saw). So you can quote a MILLION scholars and that means nothing, what matters is the strength of their evidence. Just because you all blindly follow your rabbis and priests doesn’t mean the rest of us do.

        Three, if you weren’t in MY conversation and minded your business you wouldn’t be confused. The question from the man was not texts on slavery (which I’m going to get to your poor copy and paste in a sec) He was asking where is a place he can find the list of all the slaves Muhammad(saw) owned and freed. Again no one here denies slavery went down in 7th century Arabia so your link was irrelevant and shows you have no type of reading comprehension.

        Now onto your propaganda. I’m going to go point by point as you all like to shotgun tangents. Let’s start with something basic to make you (and by extension them) look stupid. A claim in the article:

        “Islam Permits Raping Captives and Slaves”

        Mmmm…strong words for you to dwell on Billy bob as you twirl your moonshine in the bayou. Neither hadith quoted for “evidence” says they can be raped, it permits sex. One says its permissible for them to have sex, the other says it’s permissible if he pulls out while having sex. Please show me where it states one can rape in the text and not your “reading in between the lines” fallacy? (Hint it doesn’t exist) Now is there a hadtih that forbids rape of concubines? There is! (gasp):

        “And Safiyya bint ‘Ubaid said:
        “A governmental male-slave tried to seduce a slave-girl from the Khumus of the war booty till he deflowered her by force against her will; therefore ‘Umar flogged him according to the law, and exiled him, but he did not flog the female slave because the male-slave had committed illegal sexual intercourse by force, against her will….”

        https://sunnah.com/bukhari/89/10

        But, but Billy bob how could the authors have missed that hadith? it’s almost like they were feeding propaganda to their gullible followers or something…

        So long story short you’ve been made to look like a dumb@$$ in:

        1. The ability to use weak hadith
        2. The strength of a scholar’s opinion in fiqh
        3. Reading comprehension and being nosy
        4. Your copy and paste

        Wanna play another round?

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    • You can find on youtube Sheik Hamza Yusuf. Who says that they attack weak hadith. But weak hadith means pass.

      And here another Sheik gives examples why people reject authentic hadith. And they should not put doubts in those hadith.

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      • @ Daniel

        Oh, and because I forgot, you had time to look up that video but you didn’t have time to comment on how you’re peddling a Zionist who could care less about America or that the Us Constitution still permits slavery.

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      • Atlas son of mutah. He said weak hadith means pass. That what I wrote. Drink some camel urine to cure your stupidity.

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      • ‘He said weak hadith means pass’
        I know you’re just a stupid kafir that is an asskisser of cp the peepee but let me make this clear to you. You attribute a postion to a scholar which he does NOT hold. You simply quote one line that he makes while the very same man says that it’s accepted only

        Liked by 1 person

      • ‘Those actions that are vertious you can use weak hadith and if it didn’t relate to hukm. In aqidah it has to be Muttawatir’

        So weak hadith means pass is ONLY for vertious actions. Wth does any of this have to dow with what was discussed?
        I didn’t attack a weak hadith that is used for vertious actions so your demented holy spirit can try whispering some other bullshit into your soul to try and come up with a lame ass excuse to mutilate what Hamza Yusuf said.
        Stupid kafirs being stupid. What else is new?

        Liked by 1 person

      • @ Atlas

        “Stupid kafirs being stupid. What else is new?”

        Not a d@mn thing. 😒🚬 Sometimes you wish to just be a fly on their graves.

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      • I wrote he said weak hadith means pass. And later I wrote you have Muslims who reject weak hadith for no good reason. If you read the whole conversation you would know.

        So stupid son of Mutah do you get it now? or you’re too high on camel urine? lol. Don’t embarrass yourself in front of me.

        Like

      • @ Daniel

        Except that’s not what he said dumb@$$.

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      • My poor kafir idiot.

        Let me post what I said again:
        ”So weak hadith means pass is ONLY for vertious actions. Wth does any of this have to dow with what was discussed?
        I didn’t attack a weak hadith that is used for vertious actions so your demented holy spirit can try whispering some other bullshit into your soul to try and come up with a lame ass excuse to mutilate what Hamza Yusuf said.”

        THAT is what Hamza Yusuf said you deceptive snake. Where did I deny a SINGLE weak hadith that is merely refering to a vertious good action? I won’t expect a respons except fifty tangents.
        What part of
        ”So weak hadith means pass is ONLY for vertious actions” do you not understand you manworshiping vermin?
        If you’re going to rape and mutilate his stance on a certain subject like you do with your bible, at least try and put some effort into it.

        Liked by 2 people

      • @Atlas

        You came out of your mother a$$. Never met anyone as dumb as you. No, wait we have Stewjo. Dumber and dumber lol

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      • Dumb and dumber*

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      • And of course there is no refutation after being shown to be a deceptive snake and failing to show where i denied a weak hadith based solely on vertious actions mentioned by the very same person you brought up, ie Hamza Yusuf.
        Another kafir, another bitchslap.
        Now go worship your Greek/Roman pagan diaper god that came out of a woman’s private part and got nailed to a stick.

        Liked by 2 people

      • @Atlas

        I can’t help you when you’re too stupid to get the point.

        I can’t make you smart enough to understand. Even camel urine won’t help cure your stupid.

        You came out of a donkey a$$.

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      • “I can’t help you when you’re too stupid to get the point.”
        O I get the point and you know I get it as well. This is just you distracting and not dealing with the bitchslap you’re receiving. I know you read to many pornverses in your porn book called the holey babble but try and focus. THE VERY SAME VIDEO YOU POSTED BITCHSLAPS YOU! Loll!!!!!!
        OUCH!!!
        You got humiliated like your diaper god that got nailed to a stick.
        And yes the amazing Prophet Muhammad (Peace and blessings of the Almighty be with him) did demand some bedouins to mix camel urine with milk and consume it be cause they were ill and needed medicine. In the 7th century Arabia there are no privalages that we have today. They didn’t have the luxury of clean medicine and they had to survive with whatever means neccesary. And the blessed prophet told them to mix urine with milk and consume it and they did and they were CURED. Thank you for bringing this up and showing the prophet was so amazing he even cured these scum who later on took advantage of this and killed a man brutally and then taking his belongings.
        Now go read some ponr verses in your porn book:

        Song of Songs 4:5 “Your two breasts are like two fawns, like twin fawns of a gazelle that browse among the lilies.”
        Song of Songs 1:13 “My lover is to me a sachet of myrrh resting between my breasts.”
        Song of Songs 1:2-4 “Let him kiss me with the kisses of his mouth– for your love is more delightful than wine. Pleasing is the fragrance of your perfumes; your name is like perfume poured out. No wonder the maidens love you! Take me away with you–let us hurry! Let the king bring me into his chambers. We rejoice and delight in you; we will praise your love more than wine. How right they are to adore you!”
        Song of Songs 5:4 “I slept but my heart was awake. Listen! My lover is knocking: ‘Open to me, my sister, my darling, my dove, my flawless one. My head is drenched with dew, my hair with the dampness of the night.’ I have taken off my robe must I put it on again? I have washed my feet, must I soil them again? My lover thrust his hand through the latch-opening; my heart began to pound for him.”
        🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮

        Get owned loser!

        Liked by 2 people

      • @Atlas

        Muhammad the pedo had sex with 9 years old. Even porn star doesn’t go that low.

        Keep going. More insult to come towards Muhammad because of you. My gift to Muhammad for Ramadan 🙂

        Paul will have to delete the comment section after what I will do to your prophet. Make my day 🙂

        Like

      • Didn’t Ahmed Deedat say Muhammad was in the Song of Songs?!
        The hypocrisy, when it suits the Muslims they’ll say Muhammad is in there and at the same time it is a “porn book” to use Atlas words.
        Did Deedat find Muhammad in a “porn book”?! Really?!

        Like

      • Firstly I’m not Deedat so your point is moot. Secondly that ‘book’ is not a book. It’s a collection of songs/poems that are brought together. Saying one has porn in it doesn’t mean the others have porn in them.

        As for Daniel the manworshiper loser that got owned. I still would like to see where I denied a weak hadith based on vertious actions. You know, like the video which you posted said. The same video that burries you. And like a typical manworshiper that is addicted to porn, you cannot help but dodge and deflect since you have failed every single time to even make ONE argument work. Pathetic.
        Yes the prophet consumated the marriagr with Aisha at the age of 9 since it was allowed and normal at the time. No one here cares about a twenty first century manworshiper that comes along and brings this up.
        You manworshipers have the audacity to bring up the prophet’s sex life while believing in a diaper god that god (in his enterity) squeezed out of a woman’s private part???? You’re a sick fuck.
        And you as well as everyone else here knows you didnt refute shit. All you did and will continue to do is duck, dodge and deflect after getting bitchslapped every single time. You saying that you are owning me or anyone else is a pathetic attempt to try and save face after getting owned. Can you manworshipers EVER win a single debate? Even one??? It’s getting boring owning kafirs all the time. But what else is there to expect from manworshipers who believe in falsehood against believers who believe in truth.

        Now go run along to your diapergod. He is crying in his diapers why HIS god has forsaken him.
        Pathetic.
        And like always there wont be a single refutation. Only deflecting.
        What else is new?

        Liked by 2 people

      • So are you saying Deedat lied on Muhammad and found him in a “book of porn” in your words?

        You quoted from Song of Songs 5 as “porn” which is all about the beloved and the exact chapter Deedat say Muhammad is in.

        You are just exposing your hypocrite methodology.

        Like

      • You’re right about ‘chapter’ 5 containing the ”prophecy” of Muhammad and containing VERY inappropriate language.
        Some say 5:16 is a prophecy of Muhammad. I’m not going to use that since it’s still within a ‘song’ that contains grotesque language. If you want to believe that those verses are “Godly” than you have fun with it.

        “So are you saying Deedat lied on Muhammad and found him in a “book of porn” in your words?”

        Where did I say I think Deedat is lying? Is that what comes to your mind when someone disagrees with someone else? Is that your usual go-to reaction? Or do you just reserve that for the Muslims?
        So you disagree with one of your brothers/sisters in Christ and that means you’re accusing them of lying?
        No I’m not saying he was lying. I think him using that verse as a prophecy of Muhammad is wrong for the reasons I provided.

        Liked by 2 people

      • Loooool, did he jusy call the chapter in Song of Songs “porn” that Deedat says is about Muhammad?!
        I think these guys are kosing it completely, lol.

        Liked by 1 person

      • @ Atlas

        “Where did I say I think Deedat is lying? Is that what comes to your mind when someone disagrees with someone else? Is that your usual go-to reaction? Or do you just reserve that for the Muslims?
        So you disagree with one of your brothers/sisters in Christ and that means you’re accusing them of lying? No I’m not saying he was lying. I think him using that verse as a prophecy of Muhammad is wrong for the reasons I provided.”

        Thank you. I have no idea why these people think we are just some sort of hive mind. It’s so weird to me.

        Anyways, I know we insult saying these people are stupid but I’m starting to think there is some sort of actual medical reason in play because they keep trying to make people say what they clearly aren’t.

        Liked by 1 person

      • @ Atlas

        Also lol this little number:

        “Keep going. More insult to come towards Muhammad because of you. My gift to Muhammad for Ramadan 🙂

        Paul will have to delete the comment section after what I will do to your prophet. Make my day 🙂”

        They’re so stupid they think this hurts our feelings or something by watching them light themselves on fire, I guess you sure showed me 🙄🙄🙄

        Liked by 1 person

      • In this comment Atlas literally defended Muhammad in the Song of Songs 5:16. Now when it suits him he is calling it “porn” and it’s all of a sudden no longer about Muhammad.

        And even Stwjo cane to Atlas’ rescue. Are you guys for real?

        You just exposed your hypocritical methodology.

        https://bloggingtheology.com/2019/10/07/song-of-songs-516-prophesied-prophet-muhammad-upon-whom-be-peace-by-name/comment-page-1/#comment-21388

        Like

      • “In this comment Atlas literally defended Muhammad in the Song of Songs 5:16. Now when it suits him he is calling it “porn” and it’s all of a sudden no longer about Muhammad.”

        Lol I love the dedication of you going through older posts just to find something to use against me.
        I used to hold the position that it was a valid prophecy. I don’t anymore. Is there something wrong with having an opinion at one point in time and then changing your mind later on? You see unlike you and your xtian friends I don’t have the ego with size of mount everest to deny this and admit that yes I changed my mind and I no longer think it’s valid to say this is a proper prophecy about Muhammad because it’s just straight up porn. Funny how you never defend your bible containing porn and trying to score some cheap debate points. First you brought up Ahmed Deedat as if that refutes anything I said then you jump to me holding a postion which I no longer hold and now you claim to have the upper hand. Woow! I mean truly: woooow!

        Liked by 1 person

      • You had two choices:

        A – kaffir humiliate your prophet

        B – let it go

        Your ego is so big that you choose A. But I like it. Let’s make Muhammad cry in his grave during Ramadan lol.

        You’re sick spirit of Allah squeeze this breath into a female private part.

        The pedo also suck on little boys tongues. A 9 years old was not enough for that filthy rat.

        Keep going Atlas, I have a lot more for Muhammad. I’m still just warming up. 🙂 Trust me it will get so nasty. Paul will have to rescue you and Muhammad by deleting the comments. 😂 I promise it will get to that level.

        Like

      • @ Daniel

        Question, if I punched myself in the face would you cry?

        Like

      • @ Spence

        “And even Stwjo cane to Atlas’ rescue. Are you guys for real?”

        I didn’t even comment in that article what are you talking about?

        Like

    • Even before making an argument. You already disqualify yourself.

      Since you claim the opinion of the best generations of Muslims means nothing. Modern-day scholars mean nothing. Even a million quotes mean nothing. You just bring evidence that your views mean nothing. You’re no one compared to them.

      We both know I can quote more than one scholar. That’s why you say even a million is worth nothing.

      Great video, Muslims should not throw the hadith under the bus for no good reason. A lot of Muslims rejects Hassan and Daif. Even Sahih. He even said the greatest scholar of hadith uses weak hadith in his books except for one. But my guess is the greatest scholar of hadith means nothing.

      Not a lot of difference between what he said and Yusuf. My main point is to prove that it’s permissible to use weak hadith.

      And it’s not my view, a sheik is sharing his knowledge. My view is everything is weak in Islam. Even your Quran and Sahih hadith are weak. But we are not speaking about my opinion. You can call other Muslims ignorant if you want.

      Since you share a video by Yasir Qhadi. He also has lectures about zombies and Muhammad was caught by his wives having sex with a slave. My guess is if I use Yasir Qhadi against you. You will say his scholarship means nothing lol.

      I’m not saying it to be disrespectful although you been nothing but rude. If your parents were war captives. The men had sex with your mother while your father was still alive.

      A) Do you believe your mother gave herself to those men?

      B) she got raped

      You can prepare for as many rounds as you like. When you’re up against a knockout artist. The lights can turn off in the first round.

      Now prove my case by diverting regarding the war captives. Reject the zombies and Muhammad was caught with the sex slave. Or divert.

      And I had time to share the videos since I don’t care about your ad hominem. It was just an emotional response by you in an attempt to divert.

      Like

      • @ Daniel

        Before beginning please show me where I stated the best of generations means nothing? I said a single Sahabi’s opinion means nothing (and this is a consensus btw). As you know nothing about Islamic fiqh (despite pretending to) this is why this has escaped you as this is literally fiqh 101. The ONLY sources that can create rulings in Islam are either God or the person he sent as His Messenger.

        Next, I don’t know who you can quote nor do I care. Again textual evidence is all that matters. A scholar’s opinion does not mean jack in Islamic law. Here so you can stop looking stupid here’s a brief summary of fiqh. Please show me where it states a Scholar’s opinion is evidence? Don’t worry I’ll wait (whistles and starts clipping nails):

        Click to access The%20Evolution%20of%20Fiqh.pdf

        Lol, you really didn’t understand what he said? That’s hilarious. I’ll help you by using small words and pictures:

        1.Sahih and Hasan (Authentic) = Good 👍
        2. Mawdoo (fabrication)= Bad 👎 😠
        3. Daif (weak)= We don’t know and so it can’t be used as evidence 🤷
        But (and I don’t hold this opinion btw but I won’t blast someone who does) if it’s for encouraging something good that is established in another place to be good for example: “If you pray, you’ll get a Miiiilllliiiion blessings!” We have Sahih text that states you should pray so go-ahead for the purpose of encouraging prayer.

        What you morons don’t understand is even if one goes with this opinion (which is really just a slight modification), they STILL wouldn’t go with what you’re trying to do which is establish evidence and rulings. For example, there is a weak hadith that the Prophet(saw) wiped himself with his hand after praying. One CANNOT now say it’s okay to now wipe yourself with your hands after you get done praying. What they are referring to is mainly a “feel good” on a specific reward (like my example of a Miiiilllliiiion blessings!) And even then, as quoted it is legit opinion to reject them (as he is referring to my teacher’s teacher in the video). Also to answer your question yes Bukhari’s actions mean nothing. I might as well go get the mailman for proof as well. Just to end this real quick Islamically before moving on:

        Quran:
        Believers, obey God, obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. If you disagree over anything, take it back to God and the Messenger, if you really believe in God and the Last Day. That is better and will give the best results in the end. (4:59)

        Cool.

        Sahih Hadith:

        Narrated Anas:

        The fact which stops me from narrating a great number of Hadiths to you is that the Prophet (ﷺ) said: “Whoever tells a lie against me intentionally, then (surely) let him occupy his seat in Hell-fire.”
        https://sunnah.com/bukhari/3/50

        Because one does not know if he said it or not (and statistically there WILL be things in the weak hadith category that he(saw) did NOT say) it is therefore haram to use them even for that purpose as you are attributing things to him even for encouragement. All other philosophical arguments (that their position stems from) are thus crushed. Moving on:

        Oh no some future coal of hell called the Quran and Sunnah “weak” whatever shall I do? Maybe we should use the fanfiction that is the Bible and say the Holy Spirit is guiding us.

        As for your question, I can’t discuss the theoretical. Maybe she did, maybe she didn’t. That’s between her and her Lord. Again where does the text say rape? You have made a claim and the onus is on you to prove it. Concubines were pretty standard relationships in society until recently. You must prove they were allowed to be raped (which is going to be mighty hard since I just gave evidence they cannot in Islamic law)

        Finally, as we have established you have poor reading comprehension show me where I stated concubines weren’t permissible. Again take your sweet time I’ll keep clipping my nails.

        PS
        I have yet to divert the topic. You are retarded and are for some reason bringing up hadith grading when myself and the other guy were talking about something else.

        Hadith of Maria is mursal (not like you know what that is) and contradicts a sahih hadith and is thus thrown out.

        Got it you can’t refute that slavery still exists in the US constitution or that Pipes is a Zionist propaganda machine. Kinda figured.

        Alright with that said I believe we have a knockdown, ladies and gentlemen!👊 👊👊 1…2…3…4…

        Liked by 1 person

      • Stewjo004 is a trash talker that’s his style. He’s only interested in debate if he can trash talk. He also conveniently wrote the “solution” with invisible lin. According to the Islamic sources the Prophet had sex with Mary the Copt on one of his other wives’ bed and was caught. The whole thang was dubious but conveniently 66:1 was revealed: “O Prophet, why do you prohibit [yourself from] what Allah has made lawful for you, seeking the approval of your wives? And Allah is Forgiving and Merciful”.

        Like

      • The very video (first one) you posted refutes you. Listen to what he says from 1:57 to 2:30 instead of raping his words. He states clearly what he means by ‘not rejecting weak hadith’. What is wrong with you kafirs? The man bitchslaps you on this matter and you are beyond STUPID to even recognize that.

        Liked by 1 person

      • @ Atlas

        Take it, easy man, if you had gone through all the Redneck sister inbreeding they have I don’t think you’d be that smart either.

        Liked by 1 person

      • @ Jinn and tonic

        Well… i… guess… I’d… be concerned if you all knew wth you were talking about. Let me go ahead and just quote myself quoting others in the other thread:

        “…a hadith in Bukhari and Muslim by Aisha(ra) who is one of the wives mentioned in the Surah, clearly states why Tahreem came down:

        https://sunnah.com/bukhari/83/68

        https://sunnah.com/muslim/18/28

        The story of Maria and Hafsa(ra) I’ll allow this site to sum it up:

        “This narration comes on the authority of Zaid ibn Aslam who was from the third generation and not a witness to the events in question. Hence, Ibn Hajar rules that this narrations’s chain of authorities is incomplete (mursal) in Fatḥ al-Bārī 9/288. For this reason, the explanation was not universally agreed upon by the classical commentators.

        Al-Qurtubi mentions first the story of Aisha followed by narrations that include Maria, then he says:

        The most correct of these opinions is the first of them, and the weaker of them are the others.

        Source: Tafsīr al-Qurṭubī 66:1

        In other words, the authentic explanation is the one given by Aisha and the stories that include Maria are weak by comparison.

        Ibn Al-Arabi concludes:

        Indeed, the only authentic narration is that it was about honey, that the Prophet drank it with Zainab, and Aisha and Hafsa pretended to be offended by it. There occurred what occurred and the Prophet made an oath never to drink it again. He confided that to his wife and the verse was revealed regarding all of them.

        Source: Aḥkām al-Qur’ān 66:1

        So he basically is saying let’s take someone who is a 3rd generation away over the testimony of one of the parties involved.”

        Alright clapped his other friend who tried to run-up. Anymore?

        Like

      • LOOOOOL, you had to reach this deep for a story of smelly honey??? And then this guy thinks he “clapped” anything or anybody? Lol, you are too funny my man, keep it up.

        Like

      • ”LOOOOOL, you had to reach this deep for a story of smelly honey??? And then this guy thinks he “clapped” anything or anybody? Lol, you are too funny my man, keep it up.”

        Translation: I just got owned and I have nothing to refute him so I’ll just act like a lil kid and throw out som lols to save face.

        No need to thank me for the translation vermin, I got ya back.

        Liked by 1 person

      • Did you even read the relevant hadith and commentaries or just trust Stewjo’s half truths. A sahih hadith tells how this verse was conveniently revealed:

        It was narrated from Anas, that the Messenger of Allah had a female slave with whom he had intercourse, but ‘Aishah and Hafsah would not leave him alone until he said that she was forbidden for him. Then Allah, the Mighty and Sublime, revealed:
        “O Prophet! Why do you forbid (for yourself) that which Allah has allowed to you.’ until the end of the Verse.

        https://sunnah.com/nasai/36/21

        Like

      • @ Shayateen

        I…guess…I… never…saw that before. A couple of questions for you:

        1. Was Anas bin Malik (ra) involved in the incident? No. We have two Sahaba (one being the party involved) who stated what happened. Very unlikely both would forget to narrate about Maria (ra)
        2. Read what Anas (ra) stated. Does he note anything about a bed? What about getting caught? He actually doesn’t mention any “scandalous” details. So even if we go with this hadith it doesn’t strengthen the mursal report which is where your criticism is coming. The only thing one can say is he had a concubine and his wives annoyed him.
        3. This narration doesn’t make sense in the context of the Quran as they did not cooperate against him nor does it mention a secret between them that God revealed to the Prophet(saw) that was told:

        66:3. The Prophet told a secret to one of his wives and when she said it to another wife; God revealed this to him. He later mentioned to her some of it, and kept the rest to himself. When he finally confronted her with what she’d done, she asked: “Who told you this?” and he replied: ‘The One who is All Knowing told me.”
        66:4. If both of you repent to God because your hearts deviated all will be well. But if you collaborate against him, be warned that God is his Protector, along with Gabriel, as well as the believers and angels who will aid him.

        4. Even if we reconcile both reports and say they annoyed him then made their plot regarding the honey and so Tahreem came down. So what? No sin has been committed.
        5. Bukhari is of a higher authority. This is why Qurtubi stated that honey is the strongest.

        Like

      • Lol, you just proved all the problems of even sahih sources.

        Like

      • @ Shayateen and khamr

        Not really? But whatever helps ya sleep at night.

        Like

      • ”Did you even read the relevant hadith and commentaries or just trust Stewjo’s half truths.”

        I’ve known about this topic way before you ever even heard of it. Stop acting like you’re making a great revelation. Nothing what you said here is new and has been known way before you were an ich in your daddy’s pants.

        Liked by 1 person

      • @stewjo

        I gave an articles and videos of Muslims scholars. That’s not my view. Everything is weak in Islam for me. Your Quran is weak, your Sahih hadith is weak. If you have a problem attack the Muslims scholars making the claim.

        You also wrote even one million quotes means nothing. Any attack on the followers and modern-day scholars backfire on you. Since you’re nothing compared to them.

        Thank you for throwing Yasir under the bus when it gets embarrassing for you.

        It’s the same scenario, I only replaced the war captives with your parents. When it was the war captives you did not write maybe it was rape. But it comes to your parents maybe it was rape lol.

        Now be consistent and write maybe Muhammad order the rape of those MARRIED women while their husband was still ALIVE. But you won’t dare.

        (That was disgusting. What kind of kid would say that about their mother? But you have to go that low to defend Muhammad. And you thought you won after what you wrote about your mother and you bury Muhammad in the process).

        Like

      • Since you mention inbreeding. “Muslim Inbreeding is a Huge Problem–And People Don’t Want to Talk About It | Intellectual Takeout” https://www.intellectualtakeout.org/article/muslim-inbreeding-huge-problem-and-people-dont-want-talk-about-it/

        I already know the answer. It will be an attack on the infidel but not the facts. Even if I quote Muslims scholar it means nothing. Even a million means nothing according to sheik Stewjo lol.

        Like

      • @ Daniel aka the FOB (gave yourself away)

        Are you retarded? Please show where I “threw Qadhi under the bus”. You quoted scholars’ opinions mean something not knowing what you were talking about. I then brought a jurisprudence book disproving your statement.

        Also you state “I’m nothing compared to them” despite not knowing my education credentials. Interesting…

        Anyways as you clearly have difficulty with the English language I said maybe she was raped maybe she was turned out. I don’t know what happens in the fictional world you’ve concocted. I live in the real world which consists of texts and facts. And as of right now neither you nor your source has proven rape is permissible and continue to dance around text clearly stating they can’t be.

        There is no “maybe” in this discussion as there is nothing that says this in the text and you want everyone to make a “reading between the lines” fallacy with you. So do you have a source that states they can be raped to counter clear text stating they can’t, just need a simple yes or no? I understand this is difficult for you to come to terms with the fact that your mother will allow a train of men into her bedroom for approx 10 USD but not everyone in life is raped.

        Liked by 1 person

      • This is the part you humiliate your mother because of Muhammad. Shame on you “Maybe she did, maybe she didn’t. That’s between her and her Lord.”

        You are a disgrace.

        If your mother does not offer herself for free. She is taking money. The question is did she get pay or offer free service to have a bastard like you? lol

        You end up proving Piper points how Muslims divert. Throw Yasir under the bus. Humiliate your mother and your prophet.

        I’m happy you commented. You were a useful idiot lol.

        Bruce Buffer: “AND STILL THE UNDISPUTED UNDEFEATED HEAVYWEIGHT CHAMPION OF THE WORLD! DAAAAANIEEEEEEL!!!!!!!”

        Don’t forget to tell your mother a few men will come to suck on her breast as prescribe by Muhammad. Tell her to be a good muslima lol. Bom! 🙂

        Like

      • @Jinn and Tonic,

        If you care for your soul, don’t get caught up in the weeds about oral narrations.

        Think about why you are created and pray to the Cause of all existence for guidance.

        I am not telling you to follow Islam.

        But just ask God for forgiveness for any sins you did based on your own standards.

        Then with humility beg Him to guide you.

        And then if you think you can follow guidance wherever it leads, then read the Qur’an with an open mind and heart.

        And don’t read through the whisperings of the promptings of any Jinn that you cannot sense nor through intoxication of any alcohol.

        Your soul in this life is representative of how you would live if you lived forever.

        Don’t get caught up in trying to win an argument or score points.

        Think about your soul.

        As God says in the Qur’an “Where are you (ultimately) going?”

        Like

      • This exactly the problem of using sources not from Quran.

        a. Many contradicting stories in the hadith and tafsir. Can be reconciled only with difficulties if at all. Goes for sources labelled sahih. Is the story about drinking smelly honey or about the prophet having sex with Mary the Copt in Hafsas bed? And just between these two basic stories, there are many versions. Why are sources containing lies fabricated against the Prophet labelled sahih?

        b. Shows that after time of the prophet, hadith, tafisr etc. just guessed at what the verse is about and had no real knowledge.

        c. Have to throw a sahih hadith under the bus, because it doesn’t suit the purpose.

        d. Wants us to believe that Quran verses were sent down just because the Prophet had drunk smelly honey that was unpleasant to wives. Obviously reaching and no intelligent person will accept this.

        e.Yasir Qahdi is a good man. But we cannot defend ahadith of yajuj and majuj zombies, no intelligent person will accept such ahadiths and also obviously reaching.

        We can go back to study from the Quran only.

        Like

      • @ Sunnah Rejector:

        I’ll first ask have you ever studied Islamic sciences in an actual scholarly setting? I know this is difficult but the people who know more about the religion than you are not idiots.

        1. The two sources do not contradict and you should learn the meaning of things before making claims.

        2. I have a simple question. Do you think none of the Sahaba ever asked Muhammad(saw) a question about the Quran and then they never told somebody else? Actually i’l,l simplify even more how do you explain the prophet(saw) making accurate prophecies in hadith that have come true in your lifetime?

        3. I never threw a hadith under the bus and I do not appreciate you accusing me of such. I formally request an apology here.

        4. Maghafir is not “honey” this is just what we say instead of the saying ‘honey sap mixture” Before moving on so you don’t seem silly to someone far less nice than I, who would robably talk about your intelect that led you rejecting the story, organic honey has a smell to it:

        What is that smell?
        Every autumn a large number of beekeepers report stinky honey. The source of the smell is nectar, most probably from plants in the aster family, including goldenrod and small daisy-like flowers that grow in clusters.

        When your bees start to dry this nectar into honey the smell can be overwhelming and somewhat startling. It’s just not the odor you expect from your sweet bees.

        Although goldenrod, dandelion, and aster honeys are often not favorites, they aren’t terrible, and they taste nothing like the odor they give off. Nevertheless, many beekeepers prefer to let the bees keep the aster honey for themselves.

        https://www.honeybeesuite.com/stinky-honey/

        “The smell and taste of the honey depends mainly on its NECTAR source, and consequently they depend mainly on the chemical composition of the plants that offer the nectar. These chemicals give the nectar and afterwards the honey, its distinctive characteristics.”

        https://www.researchgate.net/post/Where_is_the_smell_of_honey_coming_from

        And an online forum of people complaining about honey’s smell for good measure:

        “I know all about the Goldenrod smells like gym socks honey, but while I was extracting today I came across one super that was gross. As soon as I started uncapping it I got a distinct “barnyard” smell. It was so bad I only ran those 10 frames in my extractor to keep it separate, and kept it in a bucket all of it’s own. It is black as tar and just reeks. I have 1 hive at a friends that planted a bunch of Borage, and another yard of 8 where the english couple planted an acre of Buckwheat.
        If I run across anymore supers I will atribute it to the Buckwheat. If it’s just the one super in the whole lot it must be the Borage. This stuff is nasty, no other way to put it. I’ve now got 3 gallons of the stuff and I am not sure I should even sell it I find it so offensive. I would shut down a yard over this stuff.”

        It’s okay… anyways

        5. Thank you for showing one of the number one problems with Sunnah rejectors is they don’t actually know the Quran as their return is mentioned in it:

        21:95. And a ban is laid on any city that I destroy to never return.
        21:96. Until, when Gog and Magog are let loose, and they swarm down from every high piece of land.

        Don’t worry you are not the first one I’ve seen not actually know what the Quran says. I one time had a Sunnah Rejector insult the 3-time divorce rule not realizing its in the Quran as well.

        6. I’ve got a question for you, you claim we should go back to the Qurna only (despite no Muslim ever doing that) how do you explain early manuscripts of hadith collections from Sahaba’s students or the fact that they match Sahih Bukhar? Furthermore, if we reject hadith other than circular logic how can we assume the Quran is any good if people were able to forge VOLUMES of text early in a religion’s history? And if you reject hadith how do you explain the Sanna Manuscrits and can conclude the Quran hasn’t been changed? I would love to hear your thoughts on that.

        Like

      • @Quranonly,

        What’s your methodology of proving that the Quran has been perfectly preserved?

        Liked by 1 person

      • Heh Stew already asked…my bad

        Liked by 1 person

      • @Quranonly,

        “Why are sources containing lies fabricated against the Prophet labelled sahih?”

        Which Prophet? When was he born? What sources do you have about his life and why do you believe in them?

        Liked by 1 person

      • @ Schneider

        You know what ahki that is a fantastic point and I never thought about it. They really don’t know much about the prophet(saw) just from the Quran. So yeah…what prophet do they believe in?

        Liked by 1 person

      • @ Schneider

        Actually, thinking about this more how the heck do they fast during the month of Ramadan? They have no way of knowing what that is except by going to secondary sources.

        Liked by 1 person

      • @Quranonly,

        I think the Sahih Hadith are important. However it is unrealistic to consider them to be certain and unclear if the Prophet even indicated for hadith to be collected for future generations….maybe Prophet had a gut feeling that he will not be represented correctly. After all, the Prophet was familiar with his Arabian 6th century society better than us.

        Still, scholars have spent lot of effort to collect them and to look for chains. Of course, there can be and there have been proven to be demonstrably false Sahih hadiths. But let’s not throw the baby out with the bathwater.

        Regarding the Prophet’s Sunnah, let us take the good and there is much of it from hadith classified as authentic by medieval scholars.

        But let us first go the certain source for the Sunnah….the Qur’an….

        Laleh Bakhtiar who has translated the Qur’an and translated 30 books on Islam wrote the following…

        “I had found that the Quran taught me how to be a critical thinker. While continuing my spiritual practices, I was able to write a 30 volume work on Critical Thinking and the Chronological Quran in the Life of the Prophet, one book for each year of the 23 years and a few months of the revelation. I placed the stories of the other Prophets in volumes 25-28. Volume 29 is the life of the Prophet up to the revelation and volume 30 is the Teacher’s Manual.

        Living in Chicago and being a part of the Muslim community here, I saw how often Muslims quoted the Hadith, the sayings and actions of the Prophet as related by his companions using them as a first source instead of reciting Quranic verses which should be the first source. There are over 300 commands in the Quran that Muslims should follow, but little attention is given to them. I wrote Quranic Sunnah to include just them as well as the other verses where the revelation speaks directly to the Prophet.”

        Dear Quranonly, let us not forsake the authentic hadith…there is tremendous spirituality in the supplications of the Prophet and much knowledge of the rulings for rituals and other issues…there are some mistakes and errors of course and Islam is not founded on the narrations but Islam is founded on the Qur’an which is a miraculous book in all aspects and guides to the straight path….however, we should try to take the best from everything….the Prophet was a guided person..at least some large portion of the authentic hadith such as legal and ritual rulings and many supplications are from him (pbuh).

        Like

      • You didn’t actually address anything and missed many points.
        a. Maybe you can reconciliate the contradicting ahadith, tafsir etc. in some far out way, that no intelligent person will accept. All answers I’ve heard are unconvincing.

        b.The contradicting and conflicting stories after time of the prophet, hadith, tafisr etc. just guessed at what the verse is about and had no real knowledge.

        c. It is not about if there is honey or maghafir that can smell or not. He drink it, doesn’t man he smells like when it not extracted, wives didn’t like it. You want to believe Quran verses were sent down because his wives did not like smell of honey?

        d. I read what is in Quran. What is in hadith is the problem and to what Qadhi says about zombies to make the hadith true. No intelligent person will believe this, just reaching.

        e. The Prophet Muhammad is in the Quran, even by name. Quranis believe Quran was perf sent down to the Prophet. The hadith, tafisr etc. full of unbelievable stories contradictions etc., like this smelly honey, yajuj and majuj etc.

        Like

      • Abdul Haq
        I appreciate your gentle approach, so you seem much more sensitive to the challenges of ahadith etc. The problem is where to stop, this is exactly the point Qadhi is making, though he seems not prepared to follow his own advice all the way.

        Like

      • @Quranonly,

        “e. The Prophet Muhammad is in the Quran, even by name. Quranis believe Quran was perf sent down to the Prophet. The hadith, tafisr etc. full of unbelievable stories contradictions etc., like this smelly honey, yajuj and majuj etc.”

        Schneider
        May 14, 2020 • 7:46 am
        @Quranonly,

        What’s your methodology of proving that the Quran has been perfectly preserved?

        Liked by 1 person

        Schneider
        May 14, 2020 • 7:53 am
        @Quranonly,

        “Why are sources containing lies fabricated against the Prophet labelled sahih?”

        Which Prophet? When was he born? What sources do you have about his life and why do you believe in them?

        Liked by 2 people

      • @ Abdul haqq

        “. However it is unrealistic to consider them to be certain and unclear if the Prophet even indicated for hadith to be collected for future generations….maybe Prophet had a gut feeling that he will not be represented correctly. After all, the Prophet was familiar with his Arabian 6th century society better than us.”

        Please do not speak on subjects you have not studied. He(saw) did authorize the writing of ahadith and many Sahaba had their own collections.

        Laleh Bakhtiar is not a scholar she is a Catholic who converted to Islam then studied under the Shia philosopher part of the “Study Quran”. Her opinion means absolutely nothing.
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laleh_Bakhtiar

        However, refuting her real quick:

        “Living in Chicago and being a part of the Muslim community here, I saw how often Muslims quoted the Hadith, the sayings and actions of the Prophet as related by his companions using them as a first source instead of reciting Quranic verses which should be the first source. There are over 300 commands in the Quran that Muslims should follow, but little attention is given to them. I wrote Quranic Sunnah to include just them as well as the other verses where the revelation speaks directly to the Prophet.”

        1. A go-to of Sunnah Rejectors is the Quran is “abandoned”. List a command in the Quran that Muslims do not give attention to because that is a straight-up lie and just a way to win sympathy.
        2. The Quran itself is just a giant hadith itself and is related through the Companions so this argument is retarded.
        3. The reason Chicago (a place that is KNOWN in the US for being ignorant) and other Western Muslim communities debate on ahadith is not because its “confusing” its because major commentaries on them have not been translated. F]If you ask any older Muslims did they debate about the Quran in the 70s before the translations of works like Ibn Kathir you will get an unequivocal yes. Its got nothing to do with our sources, the problem is people are not staying in their lane and talking about Islam in ignorance instead of studying when knowledge is more accessible than ever.

        Liked by 2 people

      • @ Sunnah Rejector

        I didn’t miss anything however I’ll format to make it easier to read:

        1. You just simply do not know what a contradiction is. A contradiction is when two things can’t exist at the same time in the same context. When you have two narrations you fit them together. If you reject this methodology as “unsatisfying” then the Quran contains many “contradictions” and you should reject it as well:

        A. What did Musa(as) say to the Magicians during the contest?

        20:65. They said: “Musa, will you cast first or shall we?”
        20:66. “No, you cast,” said Musa, and then, suddenly through their magic, their ropes and sticks appeared to him to be actually moving around.

        10:79. The Pharaoh ordered: “Bring me every skilled magician.”
        10:80. When the magicians came, Musa said to them: “Cast whatever you have to cast.”

        B. What was Zechariyyah’s (as) prayer to Allah?

        3:38. At that, Zechariah called upon his Lord, praying: “Oh My Lord. Grant me a righteous child from You, because you hear all prayers…”

        21:89. And Zechariah, when he cried to his Lord: “My Lord, don’t leave me alone, while You are the best of heirs.”

        19:2. This is the reminder of your Lord’s mercy to His servant Zachariah,
        19:3. when he desperately called out to his Lord in secret,
        19:4. saying: “Lord, my bones have become weak and my hair has burned away into ash, but never, oh Lord, have I prayed to You and it led to disappointment or misfortune.”
        19:5. “I’m scared for those I’ll leave behind when I’m gone, for my wife is now infertile, so ˹please˺ grant me a guardian on your behalf,”
        19:6. “to be my heir as well as the heir from the family of Jacob. And make him someone who’s content and who you’re happy with, oh Lord…”

        What you do is a magical thing called “reconciliation” as none of these statements renders the other impossible.

        2. As shown both events can reconcile flows into point 1.

        3. Oh so you don’t even know the story while commenting on it, that makes sense. So let’s first catch you up to speed:
        https://sunnah.com/urn/45890

        The issue was not that they “didn’t like the smell” (they were exaggerating to make him self conscious as he was particular on his appearance). The problem was they did several things:

        A. Through jealousy, they concocted a plan against the Prophet(saw)
        B. They made him swear an oath not to do something because of the trick. If Allah had not corrected the situation people in our time might think that honey is haram.
        C. A wife was told not to tell a secret but did anyway.

        4. It’s not a problem. Very simple, digging is an Israeliyyat as Qadhi and Ibn Kathir stated and so everything clicks at that point.

        5. Yes, his name is in the Quran but who is this man? You literally know nothing about him if simply using the Quran. You would know more about Musa(as) or Ibrahim(as) then Muhammad(saw) if using the Quran. Why should I trust this message if I don’t even know who is giving it to me? Here I got Joseph Smith and Allesitar Crowley’s works as well I guess we can give them the same time of day.

        You have no idea what the situation is that Allah is talking about (as the order of revelation is important) and you can “deny” hadith all day but what you’re subconsciously doing is using basics known in the Seerah(which are hadith) to explain what’s going on when you read (or there is simply a lack of comprehension) You can always tell Sunnah Rejectors do not read the Quran as this is not even a debate with someone who is somewhat familiar with the text.

        Sunnah Rejectors like the Rafidah are what I like to call “branch off religions” in the same vein as Jehovah’s Witness and the lije They could NEVER preach to someone who doesn’t have a background in Islam and can only target their “mother religion”. If a non-Muslim comes in with no idea about anything they won’t know what the heck is going on in the Quran nor will they care.

        Liked by 1 person

  6. @ Atlas

    Now here comes the Sunnah Rejectors. Seriously are just all the idiots coming out the woodworks?

    Liked by 1 person

  7. If the Quranists of today can interpret the Qur’an based on their own reasoning and logic, then why couldn’t the Prophet (S) do the same thing?

    Liked by 3 people

  8. OMG ARE WE REALLY GOING THERE. YOUARE HONEST TO GOD SAYING HE LET HIS SLAVES GO BEFORE HE DIED. OMG. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WHY IN GOD’SNAME ARE WE NOT BURING THE MUSLIM CHURCHES TO THE GROUND. BLACK LIVES DON’T MATTER AS LONG AS CIVILA WAR AND FATHER’S OF OUR COUNTRY MONUMENTS DON’T MATTER. BLACK PEOPLE SHOULD GET UP AND GO BACK TO AFRICA . OMG !!!!!!! HE LET THEM GO BEFORE HE DIED. COULD YOU IMAGINE SAYING THAT ABOUT TRUMP IF TRUMP OWNED SLAVES…..I USE TRUMP SINCE BLACKS ARE TOO STUPID TO PUT ANY MAN OR SITUATION IN IT’S CORRECT TIME OR PLACE. GOD DMAN THIS COUNTRY AND GODDMAN ALL OD US UNTIL WHITES STAND UP AND FIGHT BACK.

    Like

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