In an article by Ken on his blog entitled Moses wrote about Jesus the Messiah Ken insists (in reply to an earlier article by me on this blog) that “Moses DID write and predict Him” – ie Jesus’ death and resurrection – because the New Testament says so! This is a curious piece of irrelevancy and circular reasoning.
Ken fails to provide a single actual quotation from the Pentateuch where Moses allegedly mentions Jesus’ life, death and resurrection! This is because it does not exist. Here is the embarrassing discussion on Apologetics and Agape:
Thanks for your comment Paul.
It is not “evangelical spin” because the first century Jews and NT writers who accepted Jesus as the Son of God and Messiah – they are the ones who tell us the proper interpretation of the OT.
Jesus Al Masih المسیح says Himself that these are His words and that He taught the disciples these things, and He says that all three sections of the OT (Law of Moses, Prophets and Psalms / Writings all prophesied about Him and those three issues in verses 46-47 (agreeing with earlier, 24:25-27 and agreeing with John in John 5;46 and the apostle’s Paul’s writings – Galatians 3:6-8; 14-16 – Galatians 3:16 points back to the promise given to Abraham is fulfilled in the Messiah – he even makes the argument based on the singular in grammar, not the plural. (seed, not seeds) “Seed” in the promise is ultimately to one, that is Messiah.
Luke 24:44-47
Thus it is written (in the law, the prophets and the Psalms, “the things concerning Me” – verse 44 – Jesus reminded them that He taught them these things before)
that the Messiah
1. is to suffer and die
2. to rise from the dead on the 3rd day
3. That repentance for forgiveness of sins should be preached to all nations
This is the “blessing to all the nations” that Genesis 12:3, 18:18; 22:17-18; 26:4; 28:14; and 49:10 are pointing to. (also Genesis 3:15 – the seed of the woman who will crush the serpent’s head)
It is not “special pleading” since the whole trajectory of the OT and its theology of atonement and sacrifice in the tabernacle and temple, Isaiah 52-53; Daniel 9:24-27, etc. is the out folding of God’s plan of redemption, and the concept of the Messiah is also a Jewish understanding and does not require the word itself in many passages.
That Islam affirms that Jesus is the Al Masih (the Messiah) shows that the Jewish rejection of Him as Messiah is wrong. Islam by not knowing the details, being ignorant of many things, unknowingly “grabbed” onto the Virgin Birth, the Messiahship of Jesus, and His disciples (as true believers and those that will be victorious – Surah 3:52-55; 61:14), and His Injeel (message of “good news”; and without change to the text – 5:47; 5:68; 10:94) without realizing the contradiction to itself, thus proving Islam and the Qur’an is false.
I already answered that – the first century AD is the proper Jesus interpretation of the OT, demonstrated by the NT, the true Injeel.
I don’t have to be forced to answer your question the WAY you want it answered.
No, I will not ignore the NT, since that is the true revelation of what the OT means, which Jesus Himself said. (all through what I have already written)
Islam and the Qur’an cannot skip the NT, since by affirming:
1. Jesus as Messiah
2. Virgin born
3. Sinless
4. the Word of God
5. His disciples as true and believers and victorious
6. the text of the NT – the book of the Christians as Injeel, has not be lost or corrupted,
7. The concept of substitutionary atonement is alluded to in Surah 37:107, (and in many Hadith) affirming the original meaning of Genesis 22, etc. which points to blood ransom atonement, (Passover, tabernacle, Leviticus, Temple, Isaiah 52-53; Daniel 9:24-27 [although Islam tries to deny it in 22:37, it just shows the inconsistency of the whole system of Islam in trying to tie itself to previous Monotheism revelations]
therefore, you cannot ignore the NT, since Islam ignorantly confirmed it.
For some inexplicable reason Ken thinks that Islam has something to do with the question I posed to him about Moses. Weird.
Categories: Bible, Christianity, Islam, Jesus
Boom!
Sadly, this is how this missionary works. He presents ridiculous and fallacious arguments and then claims victory. You can’t reason with a person like that.
It’s amazing how he presents absolutely no evidence where Moses prophesies Jesus. All we get are NT references. But did Moses write the NT? No! So how does quoting the NT, even if to show the “proper interpretation”, prove this? Even in the “proper interpretation”, we find no direct reference to a saying of Moses where he refers to Jesus.
Reblogged this on The Quran and Bible Blog and commented:
Ken Temple being Ken Temple…
“Insults, bombast, ad hominem, name calling, sinful anger, hatred, chest-thumping, accusation of whining”
QB / Faiz being QB/ Faiz.
Hahahaha, Kennywise can’t take being skewered for his embarrassing apologetic rants. 😂
Oh and you got me…I was going to say you were whining again. 😉
Not sure where you can find all that in his quote above. The most you can call is ad hominem for:
“You can’t reason with a person like that.”
And even this is stretching it.
@Paul
What’s your take on the passage?
which passage
John 5:46
Like most of that gospel it is not history as we understand it.
I very much doubt Jesus said it.
K. Do you believe Jesus is predicted in the OT?
Not the Christian Jesus (God incarnate, 2nd person of the Trinity etc) – absolutely not!
Your view?
K. Not by name. Does that mean you think he is predicted in the OT as the Messiah or as a prophet?
what do you think?
I don’t know what you believe that’s why I ask if you think he is predicted as a prophet/messiah.
I don’t believe he is mentioned by name in the OT.
But do you think Jesus’ death and resurrection is mentioned in Moses as Ken believes?
No, not in those words, so do you think he is predicted as a prophet/messiah.
When you say that Jesus’ death and resurrection are not mentioned in “those words” in the Pentateuch what do you mean?
Please explain.
Williams you seem ignorant of the vast scope of ancient Jewish interpretation, your literalist attacks are embarrassing.
I’m not intersted in your “vast scope of ancient Jewish interpretation”.
Ken claims Moses wrote of the death and resurrection of Jesus.
I have read the Pentateuch and there’s nothing about that anywhere.
End of.
Jesus Himself, the Messiah, Al Masih said that the Law, the Prophets, and Psalms (Luke 24:44) are about Him (Luke 24:25-27) and His death, resurrection, and preaching to all nations (Luke 24:46-47)
God has to open your mind, just as He had to with the disciples – Luke 24:45
“then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures”
Galatians 3:6-8 and 3:16 teaches that the seed to come to bring blessing to the nations was the Messiah Jesus. (Genesis 3:15; 12:3; 18:18; 22:17-18; 26:4; 28:14; 49:10) The spiritual blessings are the doctrines of salvation, forgiveness of sins, atonement, etc. Moses wrote Genesis; Moses wrote Exodus – Jesus is the Passover Lamb. Exodus 12. Turned away the wrath / justice of God against sin. Moses wrote Deuteronomy. Acts 3:22-25 tells us clearly that Deut. 18:15-18 is Jesus the Messiah. Moses wrote Numbers; the star to come out of Jacob was about Jesus the Messiah. (Numbers 24:17) Moses wrote Leviticus. The whole chapters on sacrifices and blood atonement for sacrifices and day of atonement is all about the ultimate sacrifice for sin – Jesus Al Masih. (Leviticus chapters 1-6; 16-17) (Hebrews chapters 8-10)
@ Ken
Great, so it should be easy to answer Paul’s question where it is in the Pentateuch.
Yes Ken, I’m still waiting..
So you are not interested in theology and exploring life, the universe and everything. What a loser.🤥
What a silly comment.
Williams is just sporting for a fight. There is nothing in Jn. 5 vs 46 Christians and Muslims should disagree on. It’s not talking about trinity, crucifixion or resurrection. All he’s saying is he is comming with the same message as Moses. He criticises them, just as they don’t believe properly in Moses’ law so they don’t believe Jesus, because Jesus came with the same message as Moses. That’s all. Just read the context.
“The same message as Moses”? Please tell me what the message of Moses was and cite the reference.
For crying out loud, Williams. You are just trying to stir up controversy. It’s a constant theme in the Gospels that the Jewish leaders deviate from Moses’ message.
The message in Deuteronomy 6 vs. 4 and 5 is: “Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength”. In the synoptics that’s the “greatest commandment of all”.
In Jn. 5:42 Jesus says to the Jewish leaders: “but I know you. I know that you do not have the love of God in your hearts”.
So since they do not believe what Moses wrote, how are they going to believe what Jesus says? (Jn. 5 vs. 47).
yep. hatemonger williams
@George Elias/Clint
This blog is a place for debate and discussion. If you are too delicate to cope with robust exchanges I can recommend this site:
https://www.timeout.com/new-york-kids/movies/the-best-disney-movies-of-all-time
There is nothing in Jn 5 vs 46 Muslims and Christians should disagree about.
I answered your question about the message of Moses and Jesus. Do you disagree? If so, please explain why.
Are you being obtuse?
Read my article above. I’m not going to waste time explaining to you what you should already know.
Obtuse? So for what reason did you ask me “what the message of Moses was and cite the reference”?
To understand your point.
Hey Paul, I’m not trying to pick a fight. I just want to know your opinion if Jesus is predicted as a prophet or as a Messiah. If you don’t wanna answer, that’s fine. Just let me know.
If I remember rightly there is no stories of resurrection in the Pentateuch, so logically it cannot say that in those words.
so you agree with my point about Moses then. Good.
Good. Would you like to respond to my question?
on another occasion yes. But this discussion is off topic. Lets focus on the article I wrote. Thanks.
Few things Ken forgot to say that Quran did not affirm Jesus was God, crucified and killed.
Agreed. The Qur’an denies the Deity of Christ, the Sonship of Christ, the incarnation, the crucifixion and death of Jesus the Messiah.
Therefore, it is a false book and a false religion.
However, it does have hints of the Deity of Christ and the incarnation.
It calls Jesus “the Word of God” = کلمه الله – it could not help hint at affirming John 1:1 and 1:14, but at the same time (ignorantly) denies it. By affirming that Jesus is virgin born (Surah 3:45-48; 19:19-22), it unwittingly and unknowingly points to the incarnation and hence the Deity of Christ. Also calling Jesus “a spirit from him” (4:171)
روح منه, shows it is hinting at Jesus’ internal nature (Deity), but at the same time denies this; it is again unknowingly admitting that it got its information indirectly (cause it came from nominal and heretical forms of Christianity in the desert) from the NT, although denied by Muslim apologists.(like Paul W., although I don’t know if Paul W. returned to Islam or not (again ) and others here)
@ken
Your first paragraph was a true statement and I must commend you for that. What you wrote after that was like listening to someone on an acid trip
Again Ken forgot to mention in Quran that the religion with God is Islam (Quran 3:19)
Still nothing from Kennywise to prove that Moses in the Tanakh wrote about Jesus in the NT. Instead, the loser does what he usually does, deflect and change topics.
Didn’t Jesus say he was the true manna from heaven?
unhistorical.
Another circular argument…🤦♂️
So I think it’s pretty clear that Christians cannot provide any proof that Moses in the Tanakh prophesied Jesus in the New Testament.