🤣😂 Oy vei, another clown who can’t deal with the facts and has to deflect. Why don’t you just run back to your grandpa Brown and ask him to clarify everything for you?
Nevertheless, it is important not to lose sight of the fact that on the issue itself Brown is basically correct in his argument that it’s highly unlikely, on contextual and linguistic grounds, that Deut. 18:18 refers to Muhammad. On the other hand, his argument that it refers to Jesus, is clearly incorrect in my opinion.
If the debate is whether Muhammad is mentioned in the Hebrew Bible and Hussain will be doing what he did in the debate with James White, I would say Brown is not only much more competent than Hussain, but also has the much stronger argument. In that case, unfortunately, we are back to square one, with the Muslim organization’s stated concern of “misrepresenting the Bible to promote Islam” (or something to that effect).
If it’s going to be a debate whether the Hebrew Bible talks about Jesus or Muhammad, I believe we all lose. As I have already argued, this is clearly a false dichotomy. But perhaps the biggest loser in that case would be the Hebrew Bible, which is sure to be misrepresented. While it is possible, in this scenario, that some might, correctly in my opinion, come away with the understanding that Deut. 18:18 refers to neither Jesus nor Muhammad I somehow doubt this is a view that will be promoted.
With all due respect Marc i simply must disagree. I do not think it would be disrespectful or turning the hebrew bible into the “loser” in this scenario. The text leaves the door open for someone to be considered the prophet like Moses Alayhis Salam . All we are doing is simply engaging with the text of who the prophet could be based on the available contenders. I would think this is exactly the type of scenario the author Deut. intended.
I think that’s a noble perspective. If Hussain and Brown are going to press hard on the false dichotomy of Muhammad and Jesus respectively, I’m afraid I am not very optimistic of the chances for a constructive debate and I have a hard time seeing how the Hebrew Bible won’t become the loser. But who knows, I might be pleasantly surprised.
If folks, partout, wish a debate in which Christian and Muslim perspectives on this topic, are represented and where the topic is open and is not fettered to the Muhammad/Jesus dichotomy I think Ali Ataie (who in my opinion has a much healthier approach) and Michael Brown might be constructive. At least if Brown can control himself and not push too hard on Jesus. If he is not able to do that, then somebody else who is at least as balanced as Ataie. Can’t think of who this might be though.
Perhaps other formats than a debate might be more constructive, for this type of topic.
The world is in absolutely zilch need for another Zakir Hussain debate on this topic. All his arguments are entirely bogus and were completely annihilated by James White, already in the opening presentation. Everybody knew he was just reaching, He got so badly beaten that he became so frustrated that he lost it and had to go all over the place. Throwing temper tantrums galore, Zakir Hussain is frankly just another angry Muslim debater.
Uh huh sure. Another Crosstian who feels the need to offer his opinion when no one cares.
Why don’t you deal with the video? Your grandpa Brown will get his beating by Zakir later. He’s been delaying this debate since last year. So until then, deal with the points I raised in the video using your grandpa’s own standards to prove why the Biblical Jesus could not be the prophet of Deut 18.
As cheerleader in the Zakir Husain fanclub you rooted for a ZH debate. I literally just explained to you why this completely idiotic. Don’t you care that he is completely embarrassing for the Muslim side?
So you tell me what part of what I said isn’t true.
That the world is not in need for another Zakir Hussain debate on this topic? That all his arguments are entirely bogus? That he got annihilated by White, already in the opening presentation? That everybody knew he was just reaching? That he got so badly beaten and became so frustrated that he lost it and had to go all over the place? That he was throwing temper tantrums galore? That Zakir Hussain is just another angry Muslim debater?
😂 Blah, blah, blah…I’m still not seeing a response to the video. I get that you guys are embarrassed at the fact that your mangod doesn’t meet the conditions of Deut 18 but continuing in your desperate attempts to deflect doesn’t help.
Your fake concern for the Muslim side is appreciated…NOT! But don’t worry. Brother Zakir will embarrass your grandfather Brown inshaAllah. We know Brown is apprehensive about facing him. They are supposed to debate two topics: is Muhammad in the Bible and is Jesus God. I am personally neutral on the first topic, but am open to changing my mind.
Just tell your grandpa to stop delaying the debate and face the music. Wait until the debate to open your mouth next.
@ QB
Do you have inside information on the debate? How do you know it has been delayed since last year and do you know why? Also how do you know the other topic is Jesus God?
All I know is that the debate was supposed to happen last year but Brown kept changing either the topic or some other things. You would have to ask brother Zakir for more details.
Salaam brother QB. Do you think the Prophet Joshua (as) could be a good fit for this prophecy? After the passing of Musa (as), the leadership passed on to Him (as).
While it could be Joshua(a.s) and indeed many jews believe it to be him, I think it’s a little awkward for it to be him since some believe he was the one who wrote deuteronomy 34:10. Imagine being the prophet like Moses(a.s) yet also writing down the verse that says in Israel no prophet like Moses(a.s) will arise!
Salaam brothers!,
Thanks for your comments! Quick question though. Isn’t it true that the Torah was written after time time of Musa (as)? If so, how could have Joshua (as) write protons of it?
Good question! You’re correct of course. Neither Moses not Joshua wrote anything. My point was that the Jews base their interpretation on the fact that Joshua did seem to fit the bill. He spoke in Yahweh’s name, he performed miracles, he was an Israelite, and he spoke directly to Joshua (see Joshua 1:1).
I agree with QB.The “torah” as it is called in the present day was not the same given to Musa(a.s) even if remnants of the original truth are scattered here and there. The only reason I brought up Joshua authorship of Deuteronomy 34:10 is because in jewish/christian tradition he is considered one of the possible authors who could have written it, which if true, I think would disqualify him being the prophet like moses(a.s). Because again it’s very awkward to think that the prophet like moses(a.s) would write the very line that says the prophet like moses(a.s) would not arise in israel. But that’s just my thoughts on the subject.
The name of God the bible YHWH was revealed to Moses peace be upon him on Mont Sinai. This name YHWH had a specific use for the temple that God establish with Moses and Aaron to invoke God in order to get in direct contact with Allah so that the children of Israel could know the Almighty will. This name was so sacred and powerful that only the high priests knew the pronuncition of his name and it was keep secret so that people would not take his name in vain and if so they would die on the spot as you can read in the Torah…. This name was so sacred that the scribes around the time of Isa alayhi salam by fearing to take Gods name in vain wrote Adonai אֲדֹנָי which means Lord in English or Elohim אֱלֹהִים which mean God in Hebrew instead of writing YHWH. So the name had a specific porpuse with the covenant that God establish with Moses and the children of Israel until the coming of the Messiah. Jesus actually and many other prophets before him prophesies with his name YHWH, but just after Jesus died in 70 AD the temple was destroyed and therefore the knowledge of the pronunciation of the name was lost. According to the gospel Jesus saw God face to face at the transfiguration Matthew 17 After six days Jesus took with him Peter, James and John the brother of James, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. 2 There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light. 3 Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus.4 Peter said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good for us to be here. If you wish, I will put up three shelters—one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah.”5 While he was still speaking, a bright cloud covered them, and a voice from the cloud said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased. Listen to him!” So the prophecy of Deuteronomy 18 is speaking about the Messiah of the children of Israel Isa and not Mohamed peace be upon them.
No where in Matthew 17 does it say that Jesus “saw God face to face”. There was only a voice and it wasn’t even directed at Jesus but at the disciples. So, I’m still waiting for just one example where Jesus “knew” God “face to face” like Moses did. I have a feeling I’ll be waiting till the end of the world, when the Christians will realize they were fools.
By the way, I am a muslim and not Christian… Moses saw God face to face on Mont Sinai when God give him the tablets and when he came back his face was shinning like Jesus at the transfiguration which means Jesus had the same encounter according the Gospels…
In Exodus 34:29-3529 When Moses came down from Mount Sinai with the two tablets of the covenant law in his hands, he was not aware that his face was radiant because he had spoken with the Lord. 30 When Aaron and all the Israelites saw Moses, his face was radiant, and they were afraid to come near him. 31 But Moses called to them; so Aaron and all the leaders of the community came back to him, and he spoke to them. 32 Afterward all the Israelites came near him, and he gave them all the commands the Lord had given him on Mount Sinai.33 When Moses finished speaking to them, he put a veil over his face. 34 But whenever he entered the Lord’s presence to speak with him, he removed the veil until he came out. And when he came out and told the Israelites what he had been commanded, 35 they saw that his face was radiant. Then Moses would put the veil back over his face until he went in to speak with the Lord.
According to the Gospel of Mark There was also a Cloud like with Moses and the children of Israel in the desert in the Torah;
Mark 9: 2After six days Jesus took Peter, James and John with him and led them up a high mountain, where they were all alone. There he was transfigured before them. 3 His clothes became dazzling white, whiter than anyone in the world could bleach them. 4 And there appeared before them Elijah and Moses, who were talking with Jesus.5 Peter said to Jesus, “Rabbi, it is good for us to be here. Let us put up three shelters—one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah.” 6 (He did not know what to say, they were so frightened.)7 Then a cloud appeared and covered them, and a voice came from the cloud: “This is my Son, whom I love. Listen to him!”8 Suddenly, when they looked around, they no longer saw anyone with them except Jesus.,
Exodus 13: 20 After leaving Sukkoth they camped at Etham on the edge of the desert. 21 By day the Lord went ahead of them in a pillar of cloud to guide them on their way and by night in a pillar of fire to give them light, so that they could travel by day or night. 22 Neither the pillar of cloud by day nor the pillar of fire by night left its place in front of the people.
Actually, Jewish and Christian interpretation of the Hebrew scriptures believe the last prophet is the Messiah because the prophecies says he will be the one to bring the reign of God by rulling as a king on all the earth at the end of time. It’s just that they confused the last prophet and the messiah because Isa will come back at the end time and we muslims believe it too…
Exodus 34 clearly states that Moses’ face was shining because he SPOKE with God, not that he “saw” God. Exodus 33:20 also clearly states that no one can see God and live.
At the transfiguration, Jesus’ face shining doesn’t mean he spoke with God like Moses. Again, there was no conversation between Jesus and God.
Will you challenge Dr Brown for a debate? You might do better than Nadir.
🤣😂 Oy vei, another clown who can’t deal with the facts and has to deflect. Why don’t you just run back to your grandpa Brown and ask him to clarify everything for you?
Let’s see Brown debate Shabir Ally.
First, Brown needs to get his beating from Zakir Hussain. He’s been delaying the debate since November.
Nevertheless, it is important not to lose sight of the fact that on the issue itself Brown is basically correct in his argument that it’s highly unlikely, on contextual and linguistic grounds, that Deut. 18:18 refers to Muhammad. On the other hand, his argument that it refers to Jesus, is clearly incorrect in my opinion.
If the debate is whether Muhammad is mentioned in the Hebrew Bible and Hussain will be doing what he did in the debate with James White, I would say Brown is not only much more competent than Hussain, but also has the much stronger argument. In that case, unfortunately, we are back to square one, with the Muslim organization’s stated concern of “misrepresenting the Bible to promote Islam” (or something to that effect).
If it’s going to be a debate whether the Hebrew Bible talks about Jesus or Muhammad, I believe we all lose. As I have already argued, this is clearly a false dichotomy. But perhaps the biggest loser in that case would be the Hebrew Bible, which is sure to be misrepresented. While it is possible, in this scenario, that some might, correctly in my opinion, come away with the understanding that Deut. 18:18 refers to neither Jesus nor Muhammad I somehow doubt this is a view that will be promoted.
@Marc C.
With all due respect Marc i simply must disagree. I do not think it would be disrespectful or turning the hebrew bible into the “loser” in this scenario. The text leaves the door open for someone to be considered the prophet like Moses Alayhis Salam . All we are doing is simply engaging with the text of who the prophet could be based on the available contenders. I would think this is exactly the type of scenario the author Deut. intended.
I think that’s a noble perspective. If Hussain and Brown are going to press hard on the false dichotomy of Muhammad and Jesus respectively, I’m afraid I am not very optimistic of the chances for a constructive debate and I have a hard time seeing how the Hebrew Bible won’t become the loser. But who knows, I might be pleasantly surprised.
If folks, partout, wish a debate in which Christian and Muslim perspectives on this topic, are represented and where the topic is open and is not fettered to the Muhammad/Jesus dichotomy I think Ali Ataie (who in my opinion has a much healthier approach) and Michael Brown might be constructive. At least if Brown can control himself and not push too hard on Jesus. If he is not able to do that, then somebody else who is at least as balanced as Ataie. Can’t think of who this might be though.
Perhaps other formats than a debate might be more constructive, for this type of topic.
The world is in absolutely zilch need for another Zakir Hussain debate on this topic. All his arguments are entirely bogus and were completely annihilated by James White, already in the opening presentation. Everybody knew he was just reaching, He got so badly beaten that he became so frustrated that he lost it and had to go all over the place. Throwing temper tantrums galore, Zakir Hussain is frankly just another angry Muslim debater.
Uh huh sure. Another Crosstian who feels the need to offer his opinion when no one cares.
Why don’t you deal with the video? Your grandpa Brown will get his beating by Zakir later. He’s been delaying this debate since last year. So until then, deal with the points I raised in the video using your grandpa’s own standards to prove why the Biblical Jesus could not be the prophet of Deut 18.
As cheerleader in the Zakir Husain fanclub you rooted for a ZH debate. I literally just explained to you why this completely idiotic. Don’t you care that he is completely embarrassing for the Muslim side?
So you tell me what part of what I said isn’t true.
That the world is not in need for another Zakir Hussain debate on this topic? That all his arguments are entirely bogus? That he got annihilated by White, already in the opening presentation? That everybody knew he was just reaching? That he got so badly beaten and became so frustrated that he lost it and had to go all over the place? That he was throwing temper tantrums galore? That Zakir Hussain is just another angry Muslim debater?
😂 Blah, blah, blah…I’m still not seeing a response to the video. I get that you guys are embarrassed at the fact that your mangod doesn’t meet the conditions of Deut 18 but continuing in your desperate attempts to deflect doesn’t help.
Your fake concern for the Muslim side is appreciated…NOT! But don’t worry. Brother Zakir will embarrass your grandfather Brown inshaAllah. We know Brown is apprehensive about facing him. They are supposed to debate two topics: is Muhammad in the Bible and is Jesus God. I am personally neutral on the first topic, but am open to changing my mind.
Just tell your grandpa to stop delaying the debate and face the music. Wait until the debate to open your mouth next.
@ QB
Do you have inside information on the debate? How do you know it has been delayed since last year and do you know why? Also how do you know the other topic is Jesus God?
All I know is that the debate was supposed to happen last year but Brown kept changing either the topic or some other things. You would have to ask brother Zakir for more details.
OK how did you come to know? In my understanding it was agreed upon in 2016 and only one topic. I never heard more about the debate.
I have spoken to Zakir and a few other brothers who had knowledge of the debate.
Salaam brother QB. Do you think the Prophet Joshua (as) could be a good fit for this prophecy? After the passing of Musa (as), the leadership passed on to Him (as).
I think he could. He did do miracles (the sun standing still). I can’t remember if he actually talked to God though. I have to check.
@Rafah
While it could be Joshua(a.s) and indeed many jews believe it to be him, I think it’s a little awkward for it to be him since some believe he was the one who wrote deuteronomy 34:10. Imagine being the prophet like Moses(a.s) yet also writing down the verse that says in Israel no prophet like Moses(a.s) will arise!
Salaam brothers!,
Thanks for your comments! Quick question though. Isn’t it true that the Torah was written after time time of Musa (as)? If so, how could have Joshua (as) write protons of it?
Good question! You’re correct of course. Neither Moses not Joshua wrote anything. My point was that the Jews base their interpretation on the fact that Joshua did seem to fit the bill. He spoke in Yahweh’s name, he performed miracles, he was an Israelite, and he spoke directly to Joshua (see Joshua 1:1).
@Rafah
I agree with QB.The “torah” as it is called in the present day was not the same given to Musa(a.s) even if remnants of the original truth are scattered here and there. The only reason I brought up Joshua authorship of Deuteronomy 34:10 is because in jewish/christian tradition he is considered one of the possible authors who could have written it, which if true, I think would disqualify him being the prophet like moses(a.s). Because again it’s very awkward to think that the prophet like moses(a.s) would write the very line that says the prophet like moses(a.s) would not arise in israel. But that’s just my thoughts on the subject.
https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/wrote-mosess-obituary-deuteronomy-34/
The name of God the bible YHWH was revealed to Moses peace be upon him on Mont Sinai. This name YHWH had a specific use for the temple that God establish with Moses and Aaron to invoke God in order to get in direct contact with Allah so that the children of Israel could know the Almighty will. This name was so sacred and powerful that only the high priests knew the pronuncition of his name and it was keep secret so that people would not take his name in vain and if so they would die on the spot as you can read in the Torah…. This name was so sacred that the scribes around the time of Isa alayhi salam by fearing to take Gods name in vain wrote Adonai אֲדֹנָי which means Lord in English or Elohim אֱלֹהִים which mean God in Hebrew instead of writing YHWH. So the name had a specific porpuse with the covenant that God establish with Moses and the children of Israel until the coming of the Messiah. Jesus actually and many other prophets before him prophesies with his name YHWH, but just after Jesus died in 70 AD the temple was destroyed and therefore the knowledge of the pronunciation of the name was lost. According to the gospel Jesus saw God face to face at the transfiguration Matthew 17 After six days Jesus took with him Peter, James and John the brother of James, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. 2 There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light. 3 Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus.4 Peter said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good for us to be here. If you wish, I will put up three shelters—one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah.”5 While he was still speaking, a bright cloud covered them, and a voice from the cloud said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased. Listen to him!” So the prophecy of Deuteronomy 18 is speaking about the Messiah of the children of Israel Isa and not Mohamed peace be upon them.
No where in Matthew 17 does it say that Jesus “saw God face to face”. There was only a voice and it wasn’t even directed at Jesus but at the disciples. So, I’m still waiting for just one example where Jesus “knew” God “face to face” like Moses did. I have a feeling I’ll be waiting till the end of the world, when the Christians will realize they were fools.
By the way, I am a muslim and not Christian… Moses saw God face to face on Mont Sinai when God give him the tablets and when he came back his face was shinning like Jesus at the transfiguration which means Jesus had the same encounter according the Gospels…
In Exodus 34:29-3529 When Moses came down from Mount Sinai with the two tablets of the covenant law in his hands, he was not aware that his face was radiant because he had spoken with the Lord. 30 When Aaron and all the Israelites saw Moses, his face was radiant, and they were afraid to come near him. 31 But Moses called to them; so Aaron and all the leaders of the community came back to him, and he spoke to them. 32 Afterward all the Israelites came near him, and he gave them all the commands the Lord had given him on Mount Sinai.33 When Moses finished speaking to them, he put a veil over his face. 34 But whenever he entered the Lord’s presence to speak with him, he removed the veil until he came out. And when he came out and told the Israelites what he had been commanded, 35 they saw that his face was radiant. Then Moses would put the veil back over his face until he went in to speak with the Lord.
According to the Gospel of Mark There was also a Cloud like with Moses and the children of Israel in the desert in the Torah;
Mark 9: 2After six days Jesus took Peter, James and John with him and led them up a high mountain, where they were all alone. There he was transfigured before them. 3 His clothes became dazzling white, whiter than anyone in the world could bleach them. 4 And there appeared before them Elijah and Moses, who were talking with Jesus.5 Peter said to Jesus, “Rabbi, it is good for us to be here. Let us put up three shelters—one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah.” 6 (He did not know what to say, they were so frightened.)7 Then a cloud appeared and covered them, and a voice came from the cloud: “This is my Son, whom I love. Listen to him!”8 Suddenly, when they looked around, they no longer saw anyone with them except Jesus.,
Exodus 13: 20 After leaving Sukkoth they camped at Etham on the edge of the desert. 21 By day the Lord went ahead of them in a pillar of cloud to guide them on their way and by night in a pillar of fire to give them light, so that they could travel by day or night. 22 Neither the pillar of cloud by day nor the pillar of fire by night left its place in front of the people.
Actually, Jewish and Christian interpretation of the Hebrew scriptures believe the last prophet is the Messiah because the prophecies says he will be the one to bring the reign of God by rulling as a king on all the earth at the end of time. It’s just that they confused the last prophet and the messiah because Isa will come back at the end time and we muslims believe it too…
Exodus 34 clearly states that Moses’ face was shining because he SPOKE with God, not that he “saw” God. Exodus 33:20 also clearly states that no one can see God and live.
At the transfiguration, Jesus’ face shining doesn’t mean he spoke with God like Moses. Again, there was no conversation between Jesus and God.
Furthermore, the Messiah could not be the Prophet. This is confirmed by the DSS and even the Gospel of John.
On what grounds?
Watch the video, moron. 🤦♂️
“The videos keep coming, alhamdulillah!”
The strawmen keep coming, alhamdulillah!
The deflections keep coming, alhamdulillah!
Did you find Brutus the Brontosaurus yet? The idiocy from Iggy keeps coming, alhamdulillah!