I compare:
Acts 16:30f
Mark 10.17-22
The evangelical Christian typically (in my experience) drastically empties the words of Jesus of their evident meaning because taken by themselves they imply that eternal life may be ensured through the keeping of the commandments plus giving away one’s property – a complete contradiction of the idea of justification by faith.
Categories: Bible, Christianity, Islam
Fundamentalist apologists…cough…Kennywise…cough…
Christian is not Jesus follower but Jesus worshiper. Because they believe by worshiping him they will be saved. What a pagan believer.
out of the frying pan into fire
He’s back up to 7 words now. But still no increase in intelligence thus far. We will continue to monitor this situation.
😂
I don’t know why you people entertain trolls like this Ebola here.
Bro, sometimes we need comic relief.
from your compulsive urge to give your religion the worst name
Up to 11 words. Still no observable increase in intelligence. The virus is not mutating. End of report.
Much obliged for the update.
We here at the Center for Doorknob Virus Control (CDVC) take our job seriously, sir.
Your industriousness is commendable.
fascism is a virus
Ebola is a virus.
Yes, it is. But so are you.
Back down to 4 words. The virus is unpredictable. Further screening is suggested. End of report.
Thanks. 🤓
Answered a long time ago:
https://apologeticsandagape.wordpress.com/2013/09/02/no-muslim-can-deal-with-mark-1023-27/
LOL pathetic.
@ Ken
“No Muslim can deal with Mark 10:23-27”
This contradicts nothing:
“21Jesus looked at him, loved him, and said to him, “There is one thing you lack: Go, sell everything you own and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow Me.f ” 22But the man was saddened by these words and went away in sorrow, because he had great wealth. 23Then Jesus looked around and said to His disciples, “How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God!” 24And the disciples were amazed at His words. But Jesus said to them again, “Children, how hard it is to enter the kingdom of God! 25It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.” 26They were even more astonished and said to one another, “Who then can be saved?” 27Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but not with God. For all things are possible with God.”
To begin the context is the rich person. But that doesn’t negate anything we’ve stated. No Muslim claim one can “earn” heaven but that doesn’t mean one cannot follow laws God sent down so you already lost at inception. We are actually similar to Christians in this regard is through God’s mercy and faith one does more good that in turn increases one’s faith. We do not need to worship a human in this equation. Now proofs from Islam from an article I wrote years ago on this topic (as I know you won’t let it be seen on your blog):
“A man in the past worshipped God continuously for 500 years. He was granted a shelter on top of a mountain that was surrounded by salty water. However, God(سبحانه وتعالى) caused a stream of sweet water to flow through the mountain for that individual. The man would drink from this water and use it to make ablution. God (سبحانه وتعالى) also raised a pomegranate tree from which the man would eat one fruit every day.
One day, this person supplicated to God(سبحانه وتعالى) that, “Oh God(سبحانه وتعالى), bring my death while I am in the state of prostration.” God(سبحانه وتعالى) accepted this prayer of his. Whenever Gabriel(عليه السلام) came down to the Earth, he found this man prostrating to God(سبحانه وتعالى). Gabriel(عليه السلام) said that on the day of Judgement, God(سبحانه وتعالى) will tell the angels to take this individual to Paradise through His mercy. However, this man will insist that he should enter paradise through the good deeds that he had performed.
Then, God(سبحانه وتعالى) will tell the angels to compare his good deeds with the blessings that were given to him in the world. It will be seen that 500 years of his worship does not even equal to the gift of eye sight that was given to him by God(سبحانه وتعالى). The angels will be asked to take him toward the hell fire. Then the man will plead, “Oh God(سبحانه وتعالى)! Enter me into Paradise only through Your mercy.” At that point, the following discussion will take place between God (سبحانه وتعالى) and that man.
God (سبحانه وتعالى): Oh my servant, who created you?
The worshipper: Oh God(سبحانه وتعالى), You have created me.
God(سبحانه وتعالى): Were you created because of the good deeds you have done or because of My mercy?
The worshipper: Because of Your mercy.
God(سبحانه وتعالى): Who granted you the ability to worship for 500 years?
The worshipper: Oh the Almighty! You have granted me that ability.
God(سبحانه وتعالى): Who placed you on the mountain surrounded by the ocean? Who caused a stream of sweet water to flow in between the salty water? Who caused a pomegranate tree to grow for you? Who granted you death while in the state of prostration?
The worshipper: Oh the Sustainer of the Worlds! You have done all of these.
Then God(سبحانه وتعالى) will say, “All these have happened due to My mercy and you too will enter Paradise only through My Mercy.”[2]
As can be seen, this alone is enough to refute the claim, but let’s explore a few more narrations:
“Abu Huraira reported God’s Messenger (ﷺ) as saying: None amongst you can get into Paradise by virtue of his deeds alone. They said: God’sMessenger, not even you? Thereupon he said: Not even I, but that God should wrap me in His Grace and Mercy.”[3]
“Narrated ‘Abdullah bin ‘Amr bin Al-‘As that the Messenger of God(ﷺ) said: “Indeed God will distinguish a man from my Ummah before all of creation on the Day of Judgement. Ninety-nine scrolls will be laid out for him, each scroll is as far as the eye can see, then He will say: ‘Do you deny any of this? Have those who recorded this wronged you?’ He will say: ‘No, O Lord!’ He will say: Do you have an excuse?’ He will say: ‘No, O Lord!’ So He will say: ‘Rather you have a good deed with us, so you shall not be wronged today.” Then He will bring out a card (Bitaqah); on it will be: “I testify to La Ilaha Illallah, and I testify that Muhammad is His servant and Messenger.” He will say: ‘Bring your scales.’ He will say: ‘O Lord! What good is this card next to these scrolls?’ He will say: ‘You shall not be wronged.’ He said: ‘The scrolls will be put on a pan (of the scale), and the card on (the other) pan: the scrolls will be light, and the card will be heavy, nothing is heavier than the Name of God.’”[4]
https://quranandbibleblog.wordpress.com/2018/06/23/do-muslims-believe-they-can-earn-paradise/
How was that for a response dear, Kenny?
awesome!
but you never did provide any argumentation to my points.
@ Ken
I believe I very much did. You are arguing one doesn’t need to keep the Law and that Muslims believe they can “earn” salvation. From your article:
“Islam focuses on external sins and does not deal with the root sins… The emphasis in Islam is the external Sharia law in society, obeying the authorities and one’s parents and doing the rituals of Islam, and being a good moral moral for society.”
You are simply incorrect as you don’t know what we believe. First, let me refute on the alleged “emphasis” of external law by simply using the Prophet’s(saw) wife and what she says, ahem:
“Aisha said, “…(Be informed) that the first thing that was revealed…mentioned Paradise and the Fire. If the first thing to be revealed was: ‘Do not drink alcoholic drinks.’ people would have said, ‘We will never leave alcoholic drinks,’ and if there had been revealed, ‘Do not commit illegal sexual intercourse, ‘they would have said, ‘We will never give up illegal sexual intercourse.”
https://sunnah.com/bukhari/66/15
This is why NO LAWS came down for the first 13 years of Islam. The emphasis was on the heart THEN you add in the external laws as a further beautification.
To further show your ignorance regarding our theology you state in your article:
“Muslims also cannot refute Jesus’ own teachings in Matthew 5:21-26, where He says that the root of murder is in the heart, the hatred, anger, and calling people names; and that internal sin is enough to make a person guilty and condemned to hell.
Muslims also cannot refute Jesus’ own teachings in Matthew 5:27-30, which reveals the root sin of adultery is sexual lusts and fanatasies and evil thoughts, and that those internal thought sins make one guilty enough to go to hell.
Muslims cannot deal with Jesus’ own teachings, in Mark 7:20-23, that it is the sin within the heart of man, the evil thoughts, that are the root of all external sins. ”
We do NOT disagree with this. Many of these things transferred over to our nation. For example, yes touch or looks can lead to lust which is why we are commanded to lower our gaze and not touch women whom we can marry. Things that lead to sin are also sins themselves (and quite frankly these are basics)
Furthermore from your article:
“Jesus also taught that no person can clean himself up by external washings (which in the wudu/vuzu وضو before the ritual prayers, is a major emphasis in Islam), because the ritual washings cannot cleanse the heart. ”
Besides quoting the wrong context (as God commands even in your text to wash before approaching Him):
“30He placed the basin between the Tent of Meeting and the altar and put water in it for washing; 31and from it Moses, Aaron, and his sons washed their hands and feet. 32They washed whenever they entered the Tent of Meeting or approached the altar, just as the LORD had COMMANDED Moses.…”
https://biblehub.com/exodus/40-31.htm
The Wudu yes has an external cleaning to it but there is an internal component to it as well. You think about the wrongs your hands have done, what your eyes looked at, what evil you’ve heard, what your feet have moved you towards etc. This is why my own teacher emphasized not thinking this is just a quick washing process (@13:30)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsaOeeowBII
The point where you all are wrong is NOT the internal aspect but the ABANDONMENT of the external components. It’s a WHOLE system in place.
Wait, did you just say that Kennywise is an Ignoramus, Stew? Mind blown! 🤯
Seriously, ever since this moron refered to something called “the Hanafi Sharia law manual” (he was referring to Al-Hidayat but didn’t know what it was called), in one of his rants about Islam, it became clear that he is an Ignoramus with no idea what he’s taking about.
Paul Williams never dealt with the rest of the passage, which sheds light on the issues that James Barr brings up, demonstrating that Mark 10 is not contradictory to the rest of the NT (like Acts 16:30-31).
Jesus is exposing the deeper levels of sin in the rich man’s heart.
When I typed “you did not give an answer”, I was referring to Paul Williams lack of answers over the years.
Also, just reading over Stewjo004’s article quickly, it still does not deal with the explanations of reading Mark 10 properly and reading the rest of the passage, that demonstrate that it is not a contradiction to the rest of the NT. So James Barr is wrong.
It seeks to vindicate Islam. As I have time; I will have to study the points that Stew makes deeper.
Your Jesus ordered the killing of babies. ‘You did not give an answer.’
The clown hasn’t given answers to a lot of questions from Vaqas, Paul, Stew, and myself. So what else is new?
@ Ken
My article is not about Mark, I quoted it as it discusses the point you are implying that Muslims believe we can “earn” Heaven (as I quoted). Not only is this wrong, but we believe similarly to you on this. The problems are:
1. You all took this to mean one does not need to follow God”s law
2. In being justified by faith and not being able to “earn” Heaven you took that to mean you need to make a partner with God in order to have “faith”
So Kennywise, did you commit yourself to an asylum yet?
That’s the first time I have seen Stewjo004’s article.
Lord willing, I will read and respond.
But Paul W. never responded to the details of my arguments.
Stewjo004’s article is light and bases most of it’s main argument first on obscure Hadith references, then goes to the Qur’an for confirmation. Where is the emphasis inside the Qur’an from the beginning on mankind’s basic problem of sin, evil motives, pride, arrogance, selfishness?
There is some, but they always avoid this in order to say that mankind has no need of a Savior, no need of atonement for forgiveness – Islam says your heart is good and sincere.
Even Stewjo004 says that Islam does not disagree with us:
I wrote:
Muslims cannot deal with Jesus’ own teachings, in Mark 7:20-23, that it is the sin within the heart of man, the evil thoughts, that are the root of all external sins. ”
Stewjo004: “We do NOT disagree with this.”
Yet you do, when it comes to understanding the root of man’s problem and that the only solution for mankind is that he/she must be born-anew / again, with spiritual birth, by faith in Christ and His atonement for sin on the cross and the proof of that by the resurrection. (John 3:1-21; 1:12-18; Romans 3:9-26; Romans 10:9-10)
Islam says, you just need guidance [external laws], not internal change.
However, in the Qur’an, Surah 16:61, which I learned a long time ago, does seem to teach a form of “original sin” (there are indeed other indications of this, but I just focus on this for now)
https://quran.com/16/61
PICKTHALL
If Allah were to take mankind to task for their wrong-doing, he would not leave here on a living creature, but He reprieveth them to an appointed term, and when their term cometh they cannot put (it) off an hour nor (yet) advance (it).
FARSI
و اگر خداوند مردم را به (خاطر) ستمشان مؤاخذه می کرد ، هیچ جنبنده ای بر روی آن (= زمین) باقی نمی گذارد ، و لیکن آنها را تا زمان معین مهلت می دهد ، پس هنگامی که اجلشان فرا رسد ، نه ساعتی تأخیر می کنند و نه ساعتی پیشی می گیرند .
SAHIH INTERNATIONAL
And if Allah were to impose blame on the people for their wrongdoing, He would not have left upon the earth any creature, but He defers them for a specified term. And when their term has come, they will not remain behind an hour, nor will they precede [it].
YUSUF ALI
If Allah were to punish men for their wrong-doing, He would not leave, on the (earth), a single living creature: but He gives them respite for a stated Term: When their Term expires, they would not be able to delay (the punishment) for a single hour, just as they would not be able to anticipate it (for a single hour).
ABDUL HALEEM
If God took people to task for the evil they do, He would not leave one living creature on earth, but He reprieves them until an appointed time: when their time comes they cannot delay it for a moment nor can they bring it forward.
This is an indication of “original sin”, but Islam at the same time denies it.
Contradiction.
The external law is still the overall emphasis in Islam. When someone is called to Islam, they say, “say the Shahadah and be sincere and you will be a Muslim” – it assumes that mankind can be sincere.
The 5 pillars of faith and six pillars of deeds do not speak at all about motives or the inner soul. Islam does not diagnose the roots of mankind’s problems accurately.
While sometimes Islam talks about the motives of the heart / thoughts / inner person, in Islam, it is usually assuming that mankind is good and sincere and has good motives.
This is the opposite of Christianity and both the OT and NT, which understands humanity as basically selfish and prideful and arrogant. We have to be taught to do right and be thankful by our parents; our parents have to teach us right vs. wrong because we are naturally selfish and wrong.
QB has an entire article on “original sin” where he argues that human beings are born pure and without sin. (The Fitrah) (but Muslims interpret that to mean that people are already Muslims in their heart until their parents lead them away from the true religion.) Contradiction to Genesis 6:5; 8:21; Psalm 51; Mark 7:20-23; Jeremiah 17:9
It is reported on the authority of Abu Mu’awiya that (the Holy Prophet) said:
Every new-born babe is born on the millat (of Islam and he) remains on this until his tongue is enabled to express himself. This hadith has been narrated on the authority of Abu Mu’awiya through another chain of transmitters (and the words are):” Every child is born but on this Fitra so long as he does not express himself with his tongue.”
: Sahih Muslim 2658 f
In-book reference : Book 46, Hadith 38
USC-MSA web (English) reference : Book 33, Hadith 6427
Seems to imply that if the child could speak, he/she will speak sinfully – “keep it secret in your heart” – don’t talk!
https://sunnah.com/muslim/46/38
Narrated Abu Huraira:
The Prophet (ﷺ) said, “Every child is born with a true faith of Islam (i.e. to worship none but Allah Alone) [this is an interpretation of the Arabic word, “Al-Fitrah” الْفِطْرَةِ ]،and his parents convert him to Judaism or Christianity or Magianism, as an animal delivers a perfect baby animal. Do you find it mutilated?”
Reference : Sahih al-Bukhari 1385
In-book reference : Book 23, Hadith 138
USC-MSA web (English) reference : Vol. 2, Book 23, Hadith 467
What about Hindus, Buddhists, animists, pagans, polytheists, etc. ?
What about children and animals born with birth defects?
Amazing ignorance that Muhammad had by this Hadith.
This is the external emphasis of Islam – your environment / parents are at fault, not your own sinful heart of pride, selfishness, lust, arrogance, bitterness, anger, hatred, malice, greed.
@ Kennywise
1.Obscure Hadith references?
I didn’t know Sahih Muslim and Tirmidhi were “obsure” lol? Thank you. As I’m assuming you’re referring to Bayhaqi, you being ignorant of our sources does not mean something is “obscure”. Bayhaqi is known to anybody in the field and you will hear lecturers quote from it. Has a wikipedia page and everything:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunan_al-Kubra_lil_Behaqi
“Al-Sunan al-Kubra by Imam al-Bayhaqi (384-458) remains one of the most extensive and impressive works on the Sunan…Here are just some of the glowing praises from some of the greatest hadith scholars for this masterpiece. Ibn al-Salah, who receieved it from his Khurasani teachers and was key in transmitting it to the Mamluk scholarly elite, said in his Muqaddimah, ‘we know not its like in its field.’…Al-Nawawi said in al-Taqrib that one should be devoted to it, as nothing has been written like it, and al-Suyuti, commenting on this statement in Tadrib al-Rawi, agreed. Al-Sakhawi said in Fath al-Mughith that one must not limit oneself from it (by sufficing with the other sunan works of Abu Dawud, al-Nasa’i, and al-Tirmidhi) due to its comprehensiveness in most of the ahadith al-ahkam. Al-Sakhawi further added that its true rank is only after the Sahihayn of al-Bukhari and Muslim, coming before the sunan of Abu Dawud, al-Nasa’i, and al-Tirmidhi, which take precedence only by merit of being earlier and thus with shorter chains. Al-Dhahabi said there is nothing like it and considered it to be one of the four masterpieces a scholar cannot do without…Ahmad Shakir said in al-Ba’ith al-Hathith that it is the biggest book in legal hadiths (it has almost 22,000 narrations). It includes most (if not all) of the hadiths found in al-Bukhari and Muslim, as well as many of those in Abu Dawud, al-Nasa’i, and al-Tirmidhi.”
https://www.australianislamiclibrary.org/sunan-al-kubra—bayhiqi.html
Now I know you don’t know all those people but those are some of our heaviest hitting scholars in our history.
2.Your haphazard “challenge”
Obviously born out of being proven wrong, I stated once and will state it again our religion has never claimed the Quran as our sole source of revelation so we are not bound to your challenge. If so, then prove the Trinity using only the book of Habakuk.
3.Thank you for proving my point
I stated:
“…we believe similarly to you on this. The problems are:
1. You all took this to mean one does not need to follow God”s law
2. In being justified by faith and not being able to “earn” Heaven you took that to mean you need to make a partner with God in order to have “faith”
And then you go on about the idol you created. As I’ve said before newsflash to Ken people existed LONG before Jesus(as). And God was not send ing them to Hell due to their faith. Again a partner is not needed in this equation. Man does NOT need to create an idol in order to have faith in God which is my point. One simply believes in the Creator of the heavens and the earth and has sincerity is their “rebirth”. “Guidance” entails more than just the external this is simply your strawman due to ignorance of our beliefs. A person could do every external act in the Quran but if their heart was insincere it means nothing. First faith is established, then through doing good more faith is grown which in turn makes them do more good.
4. Alleged Contradiction
Original sin is different from people doing evil. Just because someone is born pure doesn’t mean they can’t do wrong. The reason is we have “free choice” and our ability to choose to do good is what makes us a superior creation to say the angels who have no choice in the matter. If God had wanted He could have just made us just like them but again the special thing we can do is…repent. That is the purpose of Adam’s(as) tale is that even when he messed up like Satan he didn’t argue it, he acknowledged his fault and asked for forgiveness. By doing this sincere repenting you cancelled your evil deed and gained a good one because of your faith.
5.the Pillars
This is what beliefs a person must have to be a Muslim (which in and of itself is internal lol) At the end if the day these are the only criteria we as humans can use without revelation directly stating this person is a hypocrite or a disbeliever. This is equivalent to you having to give a definition of what a Christian must believe in order to claim they’re a Christian and I’ll prove it. Person believes Jesus(as) died for their sins but worships other gods along with God are they a Christian just need a yes or no?
6. You misunderstanding
That is not what the hadith means🤦. The meaning is a baby is pure and innocent. Once it can communicate it learns evil from its society and parents as it can now interact and be influenced by others. A child is taught religious beliefs by its parent (that includes every religion genius). The state of a “birth defect” is just plain ignorant and worthy of another facepalm 🤦(it’s okay Kennywise some people lack wisdom) The meaning is not every animal is born “perfect” he(saw) is doing a parable and said (listen closely) “as an animal gives birth to a perfect animal” (meaning that this is a normal birth) do you see a flaw? The same is the baby spiritually. There is no mistake. But since you feel the need to insult I’ll fire one back at your idol who actually said in ignorance that a mustard seed is the smallest seed on earth when that is wrong (Mark 4:31 and Matt 13:32) Talk about amazing ignorance.
😂🤣😂 Kennywise gets nuked again! This moron just never learns.
More amazing ignorance from Kennywise’s idiotic religion:
1. Rabbits chew the cud.
2. The earth is 6000 years old.
3. The Garden of Eden was in the Middle East.
4. The earth is flat (Matthew 4).
5. Vegetation was created before the sun.
And there’s a whole more!