This article mentions the evidence that Ehrman brought from British Archeologist Kathleen Kenyon:
SOLUTION: For many years the prevailing view of critical scholars has been that there was no city of Jericho at the time Joshua was supposed to have entered Canaan. Although earlier investigations by the notable British archaeologist Kathleen Kenyon confirmed the existence of the ancient city of Jericho, and its sudden destruction, her findings led her to conclude that the city could have existed no later than ca. 1550 b.c. This date is much too early for Joshua and the children of Israel to have been party to its demise.
However, recent reexamination of these earlier findings, and a closer look at current evidence indicates that not only was there a city that fits the biblical chronology, but that its remains coincide with the biblical account of the destruction of this walled fortress. In a paper published in Biblical Archaeology Review (March/April, 1990), Bryant G. Wood, visiting professor to the department of Near Eastern Studies at the University of Toronto, has presented evidence that the biblical report is accurate.
His detailed investigation has yielded the following conclusions:
1. That the city which once existed on this site was strongly fortified, corresponding to the biblical record in Joshua 2:5, 7, 15; 6:5, 20.
2. That the ruins give evidence that the city was attacked after harvesttime in the spring, corresponding to Joshua 2:6, 3:15, 5:10.
3. That the inhabitants did not have the opportunity to flee with their foodstuffs from the invading army, as reported in Joshua 6:1.
4. That the siege was short, not allowing the inhabitants to consume the food which was stored in the city, as Joshua 6:15 indicates.
5. That the walls were leveled in such a way to provide access into the city for the invaders, as Joshua 6:20 records.
6. That the city was not plundered by the invaders, according to God’s instructions in Joshua 6:17–18.
7. That the city was burned after the walls had been destroyed, just as Joshua 6:24 says.
Ken, don’t believe outdated scholarship from 1990.
Today, scholars agree almost unanimously that the Book of Joshua holds little historical value.
See: Killebrew, Ann E. (2005). Biblical Peoples and Ethnicity: An Archaeological Study of Egyptians, Canaanites, and Early Israel, 1300–1100 B.C.E. Society of Biblical Literature. ISBN 9781589830974.
Kenyon’s work was corroborated in 1995 by radiocarbon tests which dated the destruction level to the late 17th or 16th centuries BCE. See: Bruins & van der Plicht 1995, p. 213.
Wood’s 1990 thesis has been weakened as more carbon-14 dating has been done. Robert Hubbard explains:
“Wood’s reading of the archaeological evidence is still subject to dispute. His dating of Jericho’s destruction to the Late Bronze Age depends heavily on carbon-14 dating of remains from Jericho’s burn layer. But a subsequent study applied high-precision radiocarbon dating to eighteen samples of carbon and six charred cereal grains from that same source and twelve other carbon samples. The results confirmed Kenyon’s original dating (1550 BC) rather than that of Wood (ca. 1400 BC). By implication, they also undermine the force of Wood’s observation that the city’s archaeological data favorably compares to the biblical data.” (The NIV Application Commentary: Joshua, 2009, p. 204)
Also, along with Jericho, the placing of Ai in the time of Joshua has also been refuted by archaeological evidence. Ironically, the evidence is also present in the name “Ai” which literally means “ruin”. The archaeological evidence shows that Ai was destroyed around 2400 BC and was reoccupied around the 12th century BC.
There is also another problem. If the Exodus occurred around the time of Ramesses II (d. 1214 BC), as most Christians believe, then even if the destruction of Jericho occurred around 1400 BC (per Wood), it would still be earlier than the time that the Bible claims the city fell. After the 40 years of wwandering, the earliest the attack on Jericho could have occurred would have been in the 1170s or 1160s. That’s more than 200 years later.
I don’t have the NIV Application Commentary, so I cannot comment on that. Also, I don’t any of the top 5 commentaries recommended by Ligonier Ministries (Keith Mathison), whose judgment I have found to be trustworthy.
Lord willing, in the future, I can get some good more scholarly commentaries on Joshua.
No I have not; I just don’t have the money or time to go deeper at this point – I would need to get more deeper commentaries on Joshua, that have up to date archeological discussions.
Kenneth Anderson Kitchen (born 1932)[1] is a British biblical scholar, Ancient Near Eastern historian, and Personal and Brunner Professor Emeritus of Egyptology and Honorary Research Fellow at the School of Archaeology, Classics and Egyptology, University of Liverpool, England. He is one of the leading experts on the ancient Egyptian Ramesside Period (i.e., Dynasties 19-20), and the Third Intermediate Period of Egypt, as well as ancient Egyptian chronology, having written over 250 books and journal articles on these and other subjects since the mid-1950s. He has been described by The Times as “the very architect of Egyptian chronology”.[2]
LOL
got its info from heretical groups out in the desert, Midrash, Talmud, the Jews in Medina, apocryphal gospels, legends, myths, hearsay, Muhammad’s own mind, Arab Bedouin culture at the time.
a subject claim by Muhammad, who your own Qur’an and traditions say, was illiterate / uneducated. (he was smart, but ignorant of the Scriptures and other civilizations) He was a cunning warrior with charismatic personality to lead all the wars and gather gullible men to fight for booty and Houris (sex angels) in heaven.
The Prophet (ﷺ) passed by me at a place called Al-Abwa or Waddan, and was asked whether it was permissible to attack the pagan warriors at night with the probability of exposing their women and children to danger. The Prophet (ﷺ) replied, “They (i.e. women and children) are from them (i.e. pagans).” I also heard the Prophet (ﷺ) saying, “The institution of Hima is invalid except for Allah and His Apostle.”
Sahih Bukhari
Dar-us-Salam reference Hadith 3012
In-book reference Book 56, Hadith 221
USC-MSA web (English) reference Volume 4, Book 52, Hadith 256
He was using a common Jewish idiom for those Canaanite pagans in order to test the disciples and also to draw her out – she did not do any self-pity games, fully admitted the sinfulness of her culture and background and by that, was repenting of her sinful paganism.
“Modern apologists of Islam try to downplay the evident materialism and sexual implications of such descriptions, but, as the Encyclopaedia of Islam says, even orthodox Muslim theologians such as al Ghazali (died 1111 CE) and Al-Ash’ari (died 935 CE) have “admitted sensual pleasures into paradise”. The sensual pleasures are graphically elaborated by Al-Suyuti (died 1505 ), Koranic commentator and polymath. He wrote: “Each time we sleep with a houri we find her virgin. Besides, the penis of the Elected never softens. The erection is eternal; the sensation that you feel each time you make love is utterly delicious and out of this world and were you to experience it in this world you would faint. Each chosen one [ie Muslim] will marry seventy [sic] houris, besides the women he married on earth, and all will have appetising vaginas.”
Hubbard also summarizes the view of Kenneth Kitchen. Essentially, Kitchen’s argument is that the “erosion has washed away the remains of Late Bronze Age Jericho…” In other words, Kitchen conveniently argues that Jericho must have existed in the time of Joshua, but the evidence has disappeared and we cannot prove it either way. Sounds a bit too convenient, if you ask me.
“No I have not; I just don’t have the money or time to go deeper at this point – I would need to get more deeper commentaries on Joshua, that have up to date archeological discussions.”
Allow me to translate for Kennywise. Ahem…
Kennywise: Nah uh! I wasn’t refuted! I just need to look at more Christian commentaries that I can blindly accept. So there!
Hahahaha, Kennywise the scumbag is stuck on how to save Jericho, so he does what he does best: deflect.
As for sick, murderous verses like 1 Samuel 15, there is no “defense” for this demonic behavior. Christians are simply insane and belong in a lunatic asylum for trying to defend the murder of babies. Even more disingenuous and dishonest is for Kennywise the sick clown to claim it was “hyperbole”.
What happened to the “brutal honesty” of the biblical text concerning the sins of the past? If they were hyperbolic concerning genocide and other vicious descriptions why can’t the same be said for the episodes of the prophets? In truth the hyperbole argument is a another way of you ignoring biblical texts. No different to those who take the genesis account as allegory. A shameful display for someone who claims to believe in sola sciptura.
Ken forgets the reason why King Saul lost his throne – because he didn’t carry out the genocide to the very last killing. The author of 1Samuel 15 took it all very literally indeed.
No one is denying that Israel was commanded to make war and drive out the pagans from the borders of the promised land. If they stopped resisting and converted to the true God (as Rahab and her Canaanite and Amorite family in Joshua 2) or left to go outside of the borders – as in the Canaanite Phoenicians in Lebanon, etc. – they, the Israelites were not commanded to go after them beyond the borders, so the language of “all” including animals and children is hyperbole.
Right. He failed to obey fully.
But that does not mean that some of the Amalakites could not escape with their animals to the outside of areas of the promised land – in fact, that is the implications of “Haman, the Agagite” in later history in Esther, in Persia – apparently a child was already born to Agag before Samuel hacked him to pieces. (1 Samuel 15:33)
The Agagites survived and multiplied, but their hearts (seen in Haman’s heart vs. Mordecai and the Jews in Persia in Esther) were still bent on destroying Israel first (in Exodus 17, it is the Amalekites that first attacked Israel, seeking to destroy them).
Saul kept some of the animals (v. 14), failing to kill and destroy them, and failed to kill Agag, the Amalekite king. Samuel justly executed him.
This was, again, only for Theocratic Israel. The NT and the new covenant of the church (churches within peoples and countries)is no longer a Theocratic state government.
But Islam came along 600 years later and skipped back over the truth of NT grace and love, and adopted 1 Sam. 15 for itself and proceeded to do that Theocratic Allah -Sharia state force/ Jihads / holy wars / Qatal / Harb and claim and act against the whole world until stopped ( conquering Byzantine, Persia (630s to 900s), India, Seljuk Turks (1071 Anatolia, battle of Manzikert), Ottomans (1200s to 1453, conquering Constantinople), etc.
732 AD Charles Martel, Battle of Tours, Muslims stopped there.
Islam adopted 1 Samuel 15 and Joshua 6 later and applied its war like aggression for the whole world in the principles of “the Dar Al Islam vs. Dar Al Harb”, etc. They made some adjustments and exceptions, but for the most part, conquered and instituted the Jiziye and Dhimmi systems and eventually wore the 2nd class citizens down to depression and forcing people to convert in outward external obedience (but not a deep heart conversion).
Al Qaedah and Isis interpret Islamic texts to do pretty close to what 1 Samuel 15 and Joshua 6 describes.
The Biblical texts are explained by God’s justice against paganism and sin and temporary for Theocratic Israel.
But Biblical Theocratic political Israel is no more. Jesus ended it. (Matthew 21:33-46) True Israel in the church age are ethnic Jews who believe in the Messiah Jesus.
So, Tovia Singer is the one who promotes a false religion. (the opposite of what he says in that video you put up) – his interpretation falls under the condemnation that Jesus pronounced vs. his interpretation in Matthew 21:33-46.
Gosh what a load of extraneous waffle. A big wiggle and diversion tactic.
Saul was demoted because he failed to EXTERMINATE every living thing your Jesus ordered him to. Notice there is no hyperbole. If there was then Saul would not be chastised for failing to carry out the genocide to the letter.
The Amalekites were also trying to destroy Israel in Exodus 17 so they are also included in the holy Harem ban/ holy war against the evil pagan nations that are listed in Deuteronomy seven and nine and 20 and genesis 15 and in first Samuel 15 they are also included to drive them out of the land or if they choose to fight to kill them all.
These pagan nations we’re not only doing Gross idolatry and child sacrifice in their religious services but also having sex and homosexual sex in their religious rituals in front of everybody – they were guilty of the most heinous crimes of humanity. The violence was Like the murderous regime’s of Hitler and Stalin and Pol Pot combined.
Tovia singer said it was like the Lord revealing ahead of time when the baby Hitler was to be born and knowing the future commanded the killing of that baby. Watch his video. That is exactly what Haman, the Agagite was, A descendent of Agag the king of the Amalekites in first Samuel 15 – that Agagite it was in the book of Esther he was trying to kill all the Jews in the Persian empire
God gave them 400 years to repent.
Genesis 15:13-18
13 God said to Abram, “Know for certain that your [q]descendants will be strangers in a land that is not theirs, [r]where they will be enslaved and oppressed four hundred years. 14 But I will also judge the nation whom they will serve, and afterward they will come out with [s]many possessions. 15 As for you, you shall go to your fathers in peace; you will be buried at a good old age. 16 Then in the fourth generation they will return here, for the iniquity of the Amorite is not yet complete.”
17 It came about when the sun had set, that it was very dark, and behold, there appeared a smoking oven and a flaming torch which passed between these pieces. 18 On that day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying,
“To your [t]descendants I have given this land,
From the river of Egypt as far as the great river, the river Euphrates:
19 the Kenite and the Kenizzite and the Kadmonite 20 and the Hittite and the Perizzite and the Rephaim 21 and the Amorite and the Canaanite and the Girgashite and the Jebusite.”
“No one is denying that Israel was commanded to make war and drive out the pagans from the borders of the promised land. If they stopped resisting and converted to the true God (as Rahab and her Canaanite and Amorite family in Joshua 2) or left to go outside of the borders – as in the Canaanite Phoenicians in Lebanon, etc. – they, the Israelites were not commanded to go after them beyond the borders, so the language of “all” including animals and children is hyperbole.”
Oh what a load of BS. Is Numbers 31 “hyperbole” also? Why are you such a lying piece of crap, Kennywise?
And more irony…the Canaanites had a choice: convert or die. WOW! Anyone see the irony there?
Christians are so disingenous and deceitful. I remember a conversation with a Christian a few years ago on 1 Samuel 15. We went back and forth about the justification for the barbaric violence of the Christian god, and then all of a sudden and out of the blue, this Christian claimed that she thought I was criticizing the killing of “sucking pigs”! The reason was the following translation from the KJV had been used:
“Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.”
I was amazed at the dishonesty. First of all, the translation still mentions “infants”, but the Christian somehow decided that “infant and suckling” referred to “suckling pigs” (i.e., the command was to kill animal babies, not human babies). This is how pathetic these people are.
“Right. He failed to obey fully.
But that does not mean that some of the Amalakites could not escape with their animals to the outside of areas of the promised land – in fact, that is the implications of “Haman, the Agagite” in later history in Esther, in Persia – apparently a child was already born to Agag before Samuel hacked him to pieces. (1 Samuel 15:33)”
Moron, the key word is “some”. Others were killed, right? So infants and babies were on the hit-list. Your god is nothing more than a tribal chieftain whacking the next generation so they don’t come back and get revenge. Your god = Don Ciccio in the Godfather movies.
That’s the problem. These sick fanatics try to “wriggle out” when what they should be doing is admitting that a loving God would not order the brutal murders of innocent children. But alas, they will continue to try to justify this monstrous nonsense in their Bible.
“Saul kept some of the animals (v. 14), failing to kill and destroy them, and failed to kill Agag, the Amalekite king. Samuel justly executed him.
This was, again, only for Theocratic Israel. The NT and the new covenant of the church (churches within peoples and countries)is no longer a Theocratic state government.”
Oh my Lord! Kennywise is stuck on the animals, but keeps ignoring the brutal murders of BABIES. Let me spell it out for you you sick, demented freak: B-A-B-I-E-S. You get it?
It doesn’t matter if it only for “theocratic Israel”, you absolute waste of a human being. Killing innocent infants is never justified. Your Bible is from the devil, not from God. The True God doesn’t command injustice and oppression.
That is why He forbade the Muslims from killing unarmed people, including women, children, and the elderly. Your pathetic deflection to Islam demonstrates again the herd mentality of Christian apologists. You have jettisoned reasons and have adopted the same patterns of argumentation as your leaders in the apologetic business. You deflect to Islam after providing pathetic excuses for your religion’s barbarity. No matter what you think about Islam, it all comes back to the fact that your Bible claims that God ordered the horrifying murders of innocent children. Get that through your head, you moron. At least James White is smart enough to not use this low-level polemic against Islam. It makes Christians look like idiots. On the one hand, they defend child murder, but on the other, they try to criticize Islam for the early conquests. That is the best example of irony you can find.
“Gosh what a load of extraneous waffle. A big wiggle and diversion tactic.
Saul was demoted because he failed to EXTERMINATE every living thing your Jesus ordered him to. Notice there is no hyperbole. If there was then Saul would not be chastised for failing to carry out the genocide to the letter.”
Moses was angry at his soldiers for the same reason. The Midianite soldiers had already been slaughtered. The only ones left were the women and the children. The women were killed for being the cause of the plague that hit the Israelites for their own stupidity. The male children were also killed. The only ones spared were the female children so they could be taken as wives.
Despite all this barbarity, the Christians (notice that Jews don’t use this argument against Islam) complain about Islam! Hypocrisy at its worst.
+1 regarding the Jews never make these stupid arguments on war (because they still think they can do this) or things like Aisha’s(ra) age. Only these morons.
“they were guilty of the most heinous crimes of humanity.”
This guy is seriously one of the most deranged apologists I’ve seen.
“Crimes against humanity”, huh? So your god’s solution was…to commit even more heinous crimes against humanity? Are you retarded, Kennywise? Serious question.
First regarding you’re quite frankly ridiculous deflection to Islam-
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
Second, you didn’t answer my questions ken. If they were hyperbolic concerning genocide and other vicious descriptions why can’t the same be said for the episodes of the prophets? In truth the hyperbole argument is a another way of you ignoring biblical texts. Whats the difference between the hyperbolic argument and those who take the genesis account as allegory?
God’s judgment on the pagan nations is not murder. Capital punishment is not murder. God’s justice is not murder.
Some of the pagans escaped with their children to lands outside of Israel.
Again, God was patient with the pagan nations in the promised land for over 400 years – Genesis 15:13-18 “for the iniquity of the Amorite (using one of them to stand for all of the Canaanite pagan tribes). The Amalekites were included in that because they were the ones who FIRST wanted to destroy Israel. (Exodus 17 and book of Esther – Haman the Agagite, a descendent of Agage.)
But there is no more Theocratic Israel. Jesus took the kingdom away from Israel in Matthew 21:33-46.
The kingdom of God is not earthly or political now. The kingdom salvation of God from sin is in the message of Jesus the Messiah spreading over all the earth through the gospel and churches. Not by violence or politics, but by love and truth in evangelism and teaching and suffering.
“Our struggle / war / wrestling match is NOT against flesh and blood, but against the dark forces of this world . . . ” Ephesians 6:12
ie = we should not fight against other human beings, but against evil and Satan and demonic powers and sin within.
“Put away your sword . . . Those that live by the sword will die by the sword . . . ” Matthew 26:52
“My kingdom is not of this world . . . ”
John 18:36
I marvel at how a fundamentalist Christian makes excuses for the deliberate targeting of children and babies for killing. This is how the evil corruption of a human soul is accomplished.
No one has ever been justified in doing anything like that since Jesus the true Messiah took the kingdom of God away from political and military Israel and destroyed the temple in 70 AD. Matthew 21:33-46
In Christian history, killing children is wrong. Joshua 6 and 1 Samuel 15 were temporary time bound commands only for Theocratic Israel of that day; now no more. No more since 70 AD.
The cross and resurrection of Jesus fulfilled all the law, and brought an end to the ceremonial, feasts, sacrifices, temple, priesthood, food laws, judicial punishment laws.
But not the moral law. The moral law shows us our sinful hearts. Romans 7
You need a Savior from guilt and sin. Only Jesus Al Masih and His atonement and resurrection can save you.
Ken – you just tried to justify the cold blooded murder of children. And babies. I don’t give a damn for your excuses and disgusting Christian rationalisations.
Christians have never done that in history and if anyone did, they sinned. No one ever rightly justified anything like in Christian history. 70 AD was a watershed year.
The atonement and resurrection around 30 AD fulfilled the OT.
The message of the gospel is love and truth and grace and opportunity for forgiveness.
You are a lunatic Kennywise, and you will rot in hell for your lies against God.
God is not a bloodthirsty tyrant who orders the brutal murders of babies. You are a piece of garbage for saying that killing babies is not murder because your false god allegedly ordered it. Your god is no different from Molech or any other pagan deity demanding child sacrifices.
So, how to Jews who believe in the OT and also know that Molech was an evil false god, how to the Jews like Tovia Singer justify 1 Samuel 15 and Joshua 6?
No need to “find out” dumbass because excusing infanticide is evil. There is no justification for stabbing a baby and spilling its blood.
And as I said before, we use Jewish views when they are factual. We don’t use for them for their opinions. Get over it and get yourself committed to a mental asylum. Normal people don’t make excuses for infanticide.
Yes you do need to study the issue more; and repent of your wicked rebellion against the Living God, the God of the Bible, the Holy Trinity, who has just wrath against you and your sins.
Romans 1:18
for the wrath of God is revealed against all who suppress the truth in unrighteousness (which is what you are doing)
No, moron. I don’t need to “study” the issue more. I already know all I need to know. Your Bible is evil. Your god is evil. You are evil.
And yes, I am proudly in rebellion against your evil and fake god. I worship the True God of Abraham (pbuh), who has forbidden oppression for Himself, though He can do it if He wanted. He is truly merciful, truly compassionate. He is not like your capricious, tyrannical fake god who revels in infanticide.
I wish you hell, unless you somehow miraculously come to your senses. Allah guides whom He pleases. I hope He guides you away from your insane religion. Otherwise, rot in hell.
Ironic that the Allah of Islam skipped over the love and grace and truth of the NT and went back to the warfare of Joshua 6 and 1 Samuel 15.
It is actually your religion that is closer to those things, with all your history of Jihad / Qatals / Harb / Fath (conquering) – Surah 9:5; 9:28-30, 8:39, Dar Al Islam vs. Dar Al Harb, etc.
It is actually your religion that is close in actions like Joshua 6 and I Samuel 15.
“for the iniquity of the Amorite (using one of the Canaanite tribes in the promised land to stand for all of them) is not yet complete / full” Genesis 15:13-18
The Amalekites were included in the Harem ban (devoted to destruction) because of their first and continued determination to wipe out Israel – from Exodus 17 onward, and seen also in the Agagites who survived and sought to destroy Israel in Persia during Esther’s time.
Can anybody appreciate the irony that the supposedly violent Mooslims are saying you shouldn’t kill babies while the hipple peace-loving Christians are saying its a-okay and the right thing to do?
“God’s judgment on the pagan nations is not murder. Capital punishment is not murder. God’s justice is not murder.”
OK fine, don’t you think it’s a bit weird that the judgment on a nation practicing child sacrifice is to sentence any remaining children left?
But seriously, sine you and Rabbi Singer seem to believe that the children were killed because they would grow up to be enemies of God and Israel can you show me from scripture alone where it states that?
“But there is no more Theocratic Israel. Jesus took the kingdom away from Israel in Matthew 21:33-46.
The kingdom of God is not earthly or political now. The kingdom salvation of God from sin is in the message of Jesus the Messiah spreading over all the earth through the gospel and churches. Not by violence or politics, but by love and truth in evangelism and teaching and suffering.”
You’re missing the point Ken. Yes you can certainty argue that in Christianity a theocratic state and military conflicts are forbidden now when they were allowed in the past.( even though i have several problems with this argument, ESPECIALLY considering the second coming of Christ and the resulting conflicts from it) But that’s not main issue at hand. The main topic of discussion is whether the deliberate killing of children in war is moral or immoral not just NOW but all times.
“But seriously, sine you and Rabbi Singer seem to believe that the children were killed because they would grow up to be enemies of God and Israel can you show me from scripture alone where it states that?”
So now that this possibility was avoided, will those children go to heaven or will the stain of original son condemn them to hell?
I actually do have Kitchen’s book (see above) and he makes excellent points. Thanks QB for mentioning Kitchen, which led me to pull that book off my shelves and delve into it.
“If 200 years of erosion sufficed to remove most of later Middle Bronze Jericho, it is almost a miracle that anything on the mound has survived at all from 400 years of erosion between 1275 and the time of Ahab (875-853) . . . ” etc.
” . . . all of this has long, long since gone.”
Ibid, page 187
Just referencing a work without actual quotes or argumentation is not persuasive.
See: Killebrew, Ann E. (2005). Biblical Peoples and Ethnicity: An Archaeological Study of Egyptians, Canaanites, and Early Israel, 1300–1100 B.C.E. Society of Biblical Literature.
Ann is she. When was the original written?
You have been arguing based on “the latest research”. Now you jump back to “the older research”. You just jump and obfuscate.
Killebrew, Ann E. (2005). Biblical Peoples and Ethnicity: An Archaeological Study of Egyptians, Canaanites, and Early Israel, 1300–1100 B.C.E. Society of Biblical Literature.
🤣 So Kennywise blindly accepts Kitchen’s convenient claim. So somehow, the evidence for the destruction from 1500 BC has survived, but the so-called “evidence” from 1400 BC has somehow not managed to survive. Wow!
And of course, this is assuming that the Israelites entered Canaan in the 1400s. Most chronologies put their entrance around the 1200 BC.
It is not convenient when archeologists are admitting that even the much later periods were eroded away, so Kitchen is right that the earlier periods are even more sure eroded away. Time (with wind and water and deposition and microbes, etc.) eventually gets rid of extant material witness.
It is convenient you moron that the evidence for Joshua’s Jericho has “eroded” but the one from the 1500s is still there. This is another example of Christians trying to manipulate the evidence.
And again, as I said, even if we allow for this convenient excuse, depending on which chronology you use, the Israelites had to have entered Canaan in the 1400s BC, and yet the Merneptah stele mentions the Israelites as a people without a land in the 1200s BC, indicating that they were still wandering around. Most Christians believe Ramesses II was the Pharaoh of the Exodus. That means Jericho’s destruction occurred much earlier.
“this is the established view among scholars”
LOL
like the crucifixion and death of Jesus of Nazareth, the Messiah, which refutes the Qur’an and Islam and mainstream Muslim view of Surah 4:157.
why do you scoff? There is no dispute among the archaeologists.
Modern excavations have shown that the story is almost certainly a legend without historical basis.
Deal with it!
LOL, another attempted deflection! Kennywise just has nothing left to defend his pathetic religion!
This article mentions the evidence that Ehrman brought from British Archeologist Kathleen Kenyon:
SOLUTION: For many years the prevailing view of critical scholars has been that there was no city of Jericho at the time Joshua was supposed to have entered Canaan. Although earlier investigations by the notable British archaeologist Kathleen Kenyon confirmed the existence of the ancient city of Jericho, and its sudden destruction, her findings led her to conclude that the city could have existed no later than ca. 1550 b.c. This date is much too early for Joshua and the children of Israel to have been party to its demise.
However, recent reexamination of these earlier findings, and a closer look at current evidence indicates that not only was there a city that fits the biblical chronology, but that its remains coincide with the biblical account of the destruction of this walled fortress. In a paper published in Biblical Archaeology Review (March/April, 1990), Bryant G. Wood, visiting professor to the department of Near Eastern Studies at the University of Toronto, has presented evidence that the biblical report is accurate.
His detailed investigation has yielded the following conclusions:
1. That the city which once existed on this site was strongly fortified, corresponding to the biblical record in Joshua 2:5, 7, 15; 6:5, 20.
2. That the ruins give evidence that the city was attacked after harvesttime in the spring, corresponding to Joshua 2:6, 3:15, 5:10.
3. That the inhabitants did not have the opportunity to flee with their foodstuffs from the invading army, as reported in Joshua 6:1.
4. That the siege was short, not allowing the inhabitants to consume the food which was stored in the city, as Joshua 6:15 indicates.
5. That the walls were leveled in such a way to provide access into the city for the invaders, as Joshua 6:20 records.
6. That the city was not plundered by the invaders, according to God’s instructions in Joshua 6:17–18.
7. That the city was burned after the walls had been destroyed, just as Joshua 6:24 says.
From: (with my bolding and emphasis)
https://defendinginerrancy.com/bible-solutions/Joshua_6.1ff.php
Ken, don’t believe outdated scholarship from 1990.
Today, scholars agree almost unanimously that the Book of Joshua holds little historical value.
See: Killebrew, Ann E. (2005). Biblical Peoples and Ethnicity: An Archaeological Study of Egyptians, Canaanites, and Early Israel, 1300–1100 B.C.E. Society of Biblical Literature. ISBN 9781589830974.
Kenyon’s work was corroborated in 1995 by radiocarbon tests which dated the destruction level to the late 17th or 16th centuries BCE. See: Bruins & van der Plicht 1995, p. 213.
See also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Jericho
Wood’s 1990 thesis has been weakened as more carbon-14 dating has been done. Robert Hubbard explains:
“Wood’s reading of the archaeological evidence is still subject to dispute. His dating of Jericho’s destruction to the Late Bronze Age depends heavily on carbon-14 dating of remains from Jericho’s burn layer. But a subsequent study applied high-precision radiocarbon dating to eighteen samples of carbon and six charred cereal grains from that same source and twelve other carbon samples. The results confirmed Kenyon’s original dating (1550 BC) rather than that of Wood (ca. 1400 BC). By implication, they also undermine the force of Wood’s observation that the city’s archaeological data favorably compares to the biblical data.” (The NIV Application Commentary: Joshua, 2009, p. 204)
Also, along with Jericho, the placing of Ai in the time of Joshua has also been refuted by archaeological evidence. Ironically, the evidence is also present in the name “Ai” which literally means “ruin”. The archaeological evidence shows that Ai was destroyed around 2400 BC and was reoccupied around the 12th century BC.
There is also another problem. If the Exodus occurred around the time of Ramesses II (d. 1214 BC), as most Christians believe, then even if the destruction of Jericho occurred around 1400 BC (per Wood), it would still be earlier than the time that the Bible claims the city fell. After the 40 years of wwandering, the earliest the attack on Jericho could have occurred would have been in the 1170s or 1160s. That’s more than 200 years later.
That refutes Ken’s claim!
I don’t have the NIV Application Commentary, so I cannot comment on that. Also, I don’t any of the top 5 commentaries recommended by Ligonier Ministries (Keith Mathison), whose judgment I have found to be trustworthy.
Lord willing, in the future, I can get some good more scholarly commentaries on Joshua.
Ken be a man, be honest. You have been refuted.
No I have not; I just don’t have the money or time to go deeper at this point – I would need to get more deeper commentaries on Joshua, that have up to date archeological discussions.
The archeologists have made themselves clear – it’s a legend. We don’t need your further excuses.
Good book.
https://www.amazon.com/Reliability-Old-Testament-K-Kitchen/dp/0802803962/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=9780802803962&linkCode=qs&qid=1584996140&s=books&sr=1-1
Written by a fundamentalist Christian who is an inerrantist. Totally biased!
He is Evangelical, but not a “fundamentalist” as in the way you are biased against.
show some respect for your fellow Brit.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenneth_Kitchen
My question is this: is he an inerrantist?
I actually don’t know if he is or is not.
But inerrancy of the Bible is good and true.
“Thy Word is true” John 17:17
said Jesus Al Masih (the Messiah)
عیسی المسیح
around 600 years before Islam
Yes he is. Therefore he cannot be trusted to undertake disinterested scholarly research. And to my knowledge he is not an archaeologist.
Kenneth Anderson Kitchen (born 1932)[1] is a British biblical scholar, Ancient Near Eastern historian, and Personal and Brunner Professor Emeritus of Egyptology and Honorary Research Fellow at the School of Archaeology, Classics and Egyptology, University of Liverpool, England. He is one of the leading experts on the ancient Egyptian Ramesside Period (i.e., Dynasties 19-20), and the Third Intermediate Period of Egypt, as well as ancient Egyptian chronology, having written over 250 books and journal articles on these and other subjects since the mid-1950s. He has been described by The Times as “the very architect of Egyptian chronology”.[2]
so he retired long ago. I cited recent excavations that prove Joshua 6 is a legend.
correction:
“Thy Word is truth”
John 17:17
600 years before Islam
The Quran corrects the falsehoods in the scriptures of the Christians and Jews.
LOL
got its info from heretical groups out in the desert, Midrash, Talmud, the Jews in Medina, apocryphal gospels, legends, myths, hearsay, Muhammad’s own mind, Arab Bedouin culture at the time.
It states it is the Word of God, something the Bible does not even claim!
a subject claim by Muhammad, who your own Qur’an and traditions say, was illiterate / uneducated. (he was smart, but ignorant of the Scriptures and other civilizations) He was a cunning warrior with charismatic personality to lead all the wars and gather gullible men to fight for booty and Houris (sex angels) in heaven.
At least he was not a racist like the jesus of your gospels!
The Islamic doctrines of Jihad and dying in Jihad and eternal sex with the Houris is enough to discredit the entire religion.
https://www.meforum.org/7640/killing-and-dying-for-the-houris-islam-heavenly
Narrated As-Sab bin Jaththama:
The Prophet (ﷺ) passed by me at a place called Al-Abwa or Waddan, and was asked whether it was permissible to attack the pagan warriors at night with the probability of exposing their women and children to danger. The Prophet (ﷺ) replied, “They (i.e. women and children) are from them (i.e. pagans).” I also heard the Prophet (ﷺ) saying, “The institution of Hima is invalid except for Allah and His Apostle.”
Sahih Bukhari
Dar-us-Salam reference Hadith 3012
In-book reference Book 56, Hadith 221
USC-MSA web (English) reference Volume 4, Book 52, Hadith 256
Your Jesus was a racist.
I already refuted you on that a long time ago.
Jesus was not racist at all.
https://apologeticsandagape.wordpress.com/2014/10/03/was-jesus-cruel-to-the-canaanite-woman-mark-724-30-matthew-1521-28/
He called a woman a dog.
He was using a common Jewish idiom for those Canaanite pagans in order to test the disciples and also to draw her out – she did not do any self-pity games, fully admitted the sinfulness of her culture and background and by that, was repenting of her sinful paganism.
He called her a dog, a derogatory and racist word.
testing the disciples and her.
And he ordered the slaughter of children and babies. Sick!
hyperbole
No evidence of that. A straightforward command to kill children.
Read the article and learn. study more.
you have more time to read more widely and get out of your biased bubble.
Also your Jesus ordered the kiling of children and babies in 1 Sam 15
Apologetic defense of 1 Samuel 15 and other issues:
http://www.exegeticalapologetics.com/2018/05/is-christianity-religion-of-peace.html
Changes nothing. The passage is clear.
You did not read.
Lazy
“Modern apologists of Islam try to downplay the evident materialism and sexual implications of such descriptions, but, as the Encyclopaedia of Islam says, even orthodox Muslim theologians such as al Ghazali (died 1111 CE) and Al-Ash’ari (died 935 CE) have “admitted sensual pleasures into paradise”. The sensual pleasures are graphically elaborated by Al-Suyuti (died 1505 ), Koranic commentator and polymath. He wrote: “Each time we sleep with a houri we find her virgin. Besides, the penis of the Elected never softens. The erection is eternal; the sensation that you feel each time you make love is utterly delicious and out of this world and were you to experience it in this world you would faint. Each chosen one [ie Muslim] will marry seventy [sic] houris, besides the women he married on earth, and all will have appetising vaginas.”
From your British newspaper, The Guardian:
https://www.theguardian.com/books/2002/jan/12/books.guardianreview5
Hubbard also summarizes the view of Kenneth Kitchen. Essentially, Kitchen’s argument is that the “erosion has washed away the remains of Late Bronze Age Jericho…” In other words, Kitchen conveniently argues that Jericho must have existed in the time of Joshua, but the evidence has disappeared and we cannot prove it either way. Sounds a bit too convenient, if you ask me.
“No I have not; I just don’t have the money or time to go deeper at this point – I would need to get more deeper commentaries on Joshua, that have up to date archeological discussions.”
Allow me to translate for Kennywise. Ahem…
Kennywise: Nah uh! I wasn’t refuted! I just need to look at more Christian commentaries that I can blindly accept. So there!
Hahahaha, Kennywise the scumbag is stuck on how to save Jericho, so he does what he does best: deflect.
As for sick, murderous verses like 1 Samuel 15, there is no “defense” for this demonic behavior. Christians are simply insane and belong in a lunatic asylum for trying to defend the murder of babies. Even more disingenuous and dishonest is for Kennywise the sick clown to claim it was “hyperbole”.
@Ken Temple
“hyperbole”
What happened to the “brutal honesty” of the biblical text concerning the sins of the past? If they were hyperbolic concerning genocide and other vicious descriptions why can’t the same be said for the episodes of the prophets? In truth the hyperbole argument is a another way of you ignoring biblical texts. No different to those who take the genesis account as allegory. A shameful display for someone who claims to believe in sola sciptura.
Ken forgets the reason why King Saul lost his throne – because he didn’t carry out the genocide to the very last killing. The author of 1Samuel 15 took it all very literally indeed.
“Sola scriptural” is just a smoke-screen and, in truth, Christians don’t actually follow it. It’s just another example of Christian dishonesty.
Even if it was “hyperbole”, which it’s not, what kind of a sick mind uses that kind of hyperbole? “Kill their babies” is hyperbole for what exactly?
Kennywise is a sick piece of garbage.
No one is denying that Israel was commanded to make war and drive out the pagans from the borders of the promised land. If they stopped resisting and converted to the true God (as Rahab and her Canaanite and Amorite family in Joshua 2) or left to go outside of the borders – as in the Canaanite Phoenicians in Lebanon, etc. – they, the Israelites were not commanded to go after them beyond the borders, so the language of “all” including animals and children is hyperbole.
So why was King Saul deprived of his throne? What did he fail to do Ken?
Right. He failed to obey fully.
But that does not mean that some of the Amalakites could not escape with their animals to the outside of areas of the promised land – in fact, that is the implications of “Haman, the Agagite” in later history in Esther, in Persia – apparently a child was already born to Agag before Samuel hacked him to pieces. (1 Samuel 15:33)
The Agagites survived and multiplied, but their hearts (seen in Haman’s heart vs. Mordecai and the Jews in Persia in Esther) were still bent on destroying Israel first (in Exodus 17, it is the Amalekites that first attacked Israel, seeking to destroy them).
Failed to obey what command Ken? What has he failed TO DO?
Saul kept some of the animals (v. 14), failing to kill and destroy them, and failed to kill Agag, the Amalekite king. Samuel justly executed him.
This was, again, only for Theocratic Israel. The NT and the new covenant of the church (churches within peoples and countries)is no longer a Theocratic state government.
But Islam came along 600 years later and skipped back over the truth of NT grace and love, and adopted 1 Sam. 15 for itself and proceeded to do that Theocratic Allah -Sharia state force/ Jihads / holy wars / Qatal / Harb and claim and act against the whole world until stopped ( conquering Byzantine, Persia (630s to 900s), India, Seljuk Turks (1071 Anatolia, battle of Manzikert), Ottomans (1200s to 1453, conquering Constantinople), etc.
732 AD Charles Martel, Battle of Tours, Muslims stopped there.
Islam adopted 1 Samuel 15 and Joshua 6 later and applied its war like aggression for the whole world in the principles of “the Dar Al Islam vs. Dar Al Harb”, etc. They made some adjustments and exceptions, but for the most part, conquered and instituted the Jiziye and Dhimmi systems and eventually wore the 2nd class citizens down to depression and forcing people to convert in outward external obedience (but not a deep heart conversion).
Al Qaedah and Isis interpret Islamic texts to do pretty close to what 1 Samuel 15 and Joshua 6 describes.
The Biblical texts are explained by God’s justice against paganism and sin and temporary for Theocratic Israel.
But Biblical Theocratic political Israel is no more. Jesus ended it. (Matthew 21:33-46) True Israel in the church age are ethnic Jews who believe in the Messiah Jesus.
So, Tovia Singer is the one who promotes a false religion. (the opposite of what he says in that video you put up) – his interpretation falls under the condemnation that Jesus pronounced vs. his interpretation in Matthew 21:33-46.
Gosh what a load of extraneous waffle. A big wiggle and diversion tactic.
Saul was demoted because he failed to EXTERMINATE every living thing your Jesus ordered him to. Notice there is no hyperbole. If there was then Saul would not be chastised for failing to carry out the genocide to the letter.
Genesis 15:16
“ For the iniquity of the Amorite ( using one of the Canaanite pagan tribes to stand for all of them) is not yet complete“
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=brLEMgyNo_k
The Amalekites were also trying to destroy Israel in Exodus 17 so they are also included in the holy Harem ban/ holy war against the evil pagan nations that are listed in Deuteronomy seven and nine and 20 and genesis 15 and in first Samuel 15 they are also included to drive them out of the land or if they choose to fight to kill them all.
These pagan nations we’re not only doing Gross idolatry and child sacrifice in their religious services but also having sex and homosexual sex in their religious rituals in front of everybody – they were guilty of the most heinous crimes of humanity. The violence was Like the murderous regime’s of Hitler and Stalin and Pol Pot combined.
Thanks for justifying the killing children and babies Ken. Move over Hitler..
Tovia singer said it was like the Lord revealing ahead of time when the baby Hitler was to be born and knowing the future commanded the killing of that baby. Watch his video. That is exactly what Haman, the Agagite was, A descendent of Agag the king of the Amalekites in first Samuel 15 – that Agagite it was in the book of Esther he was trying to kill all the Jews in the Persian empire
God gave them 400 years to repent.
Genesis 15:13-18
13 God said to Abram, “Know for certain that your [q]descendants will be strangers in a land that is not theirs, [r]where they will be enslaved and oppressed four hundred years. 14 But I will also judge the nation whom they will serve, and afterward they will come out with [s]many possessions. 15 As for you, you shall go to your fathers in peace; you will be buried at a good old age. 16 Then in the fourth generation they will return here, for the iniquity of the Amorite is not yet complete.”
17 It came about when the sun had set, that it was very dark, and behold, there appeared a smoking oven and a flaming torch which passed between these pieces. 18 On that day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying,
“To your [t]descendants I have given this land,
From the river of Egypt as far as the great river, the river Euphrates:
19 the Kenite and the Kenizzite and the Kadmonite 20 and the Hittite and the Perizzite and the Rephaim 21 and the Amorite and the Canaanite and the Girgashite and the Jebusite.”
The sick clown is still trying to justify murdering babies. Like I said, you morons belong in a mental asylum.
“No one is denying that Israel was commanded to make war and drive out the pagans from the borders of the promised land. If they stopped resisting and converted to the true God (as Rahab and her Canaanite and Amorite family in Joshua 2) or left to go outside of the borders – as in the Canaanite Phoenicians in Lebanon, etc. – they, the Israelites were not commanded to go after them beyond the borders, so the language of “all” including animals and children is hyperbole.”
Oh what a load of BS. Is Numbers 31 “hyperbole” also? Why are you such a lying piece of crap, Kennywise?
And more irony…the Canaanites had a choice: convert or die. WOW! Anyone see the irony there?
Christians are so disingenous and deceitful. I remember a conversation with a Christian a few years ago on 1 Samuel 15. We went back and forth about the justification for the barbaric violence of the Christian god, and then all of a sudden and out of the blue, this Christian claimed that she thought I was criticizing the killing of “sucking pigs”! The reason was the following translation from the KJV had been used:
“Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.”
I was amazed at the dishonesty. First of all, the translation still mentions “infants”, but the Christian somehow decided that “infant and suckling” referred to “suckling pigs” (i.e., the command was to kill animal babies, not human babies). This is how pathetic these people are.
🙄 let’s see Ken wriggle out of this.
“Right. He failed to obey fully.
But that does not mean that some of the Amalakites could not escape with their animals to the outside of areas of the promised land – in fact, that is the implications of “Haman, the Agagite” in later history in Esther, in Persia – apparently a child was already born to Agag before Samuel hacked him to pieces. (1 Samuel 15:33)”
Moron, the key word is “some”. Others were killed, right? So infants and babies were on the hit-list. Your god is nothing more than a tribal chieftain whacking the next generation so they don’t come back and get revenge. Your god = Don Ciccio in the Godfather movies.
“🙄 let’s see Ken wriggle out of this.”
That’s the problem. These sick fanatics try to “wriggle out” when what they should be doing is admitting that a loving God would not order the brutal murders of innocent children. But alas, they will continue to try to justify this monstrous nonsense in their Bible.
“Saul kept some of the animals (v. 14), failing to kill and destroy them, and failed to kill Agag, the Amalekite king. Samuel justly executed him.
This was, again, only for Theocratic Israel. The NT and the new covenant of the church (churches within peoples and countries)is no longer a Theocratic state government.”
Oh my Lord! Kennywise is stuck on the animals, but keeps ignoring the brutal murders of BABIES. Let me spell it out for you you sick, demented freak: B-A-B-I-E-S. You get it?
It doesn’t matter if it only for “theocratic Israel”, you absolute waste of a human being. Killing innocent infants is never justified. Your Bible is from the devil, not from God. The True God doesn’t command injustice and oppression.
That is why He forbade the Muslims from killing unarmed people, including women, children, and the elderly. Your pathetic deflection to Islam demonstrates again the herd mentality of Christian apologists. You have jettisoned reasons and have adopted the same patterns of argumentation as your leaders in the apologetic business. You deflect to Islam after providing pathetic excuses for your religion’s barbarity. No matter what you think about Islam, it all comes back to the fact that your Bible claims that God ordered the horrifying murders of innocent children. Get that through your head, you moron. At least James White is smart enough to not use this low-level polemic against Islam. It makes Christians look like idiots. On the one hand, they defend child murder, but on the other, they try to criticize Islam for the early conquests. That is the best example of irony you can find.
“Gosh what a load of extraneous waffle. A big wiggle and diversion tactic.
Saul was demoted because he failed to EXTERMINATE every living thing your Jesus ordered him to. Notice there is no hyperbole. If there was then Saul would not be chastised for failing to carry out the genocide to the letter.”
Moses was angry at his soldiers for the same reason. The Midianite soldiers had already been slaughtered. The only ones left were the women and the children. The women were killed for being the cause of the plague that hit the Israelites for their own stupidity. The male children were also killed. The only ones spared were the female children so they could be taken as wives.
Despite all this barbarity, the Christians (notice that Jews don’t use this argument against Islam) complain about Islam! Hypocrisy at its worst.
@ QB
+1 regarding the Jews never make these stupid arguments on war (because they still think they can do this) or things like Aisha’s(ra) age. Only these morons.
“they were guilty of the most heinous crimes of humanity.”
This guy is seriously one of the most deranged apologists I’ve seen.
“Crimes against humanity”, huh? So your god’s solution was…to commit even more heinous crimes against humanity? Are you retarded, Kennywise? Serious question.
@Ken Temple
First regarding you’re quite frankly ridiculous deflection to Islam-
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
Second, you didn’t answer my questions ken. If they were hyperbolic concerning genocide and other vicious descriptions why can’t the same be said for the episodes of the prophets? In truth the hyperbole argument is a another way of you ignoring biblical texts. Whats the difference between the hyperbolic argument and those who take the genesis account as allegory?
@Ken Temple
I just want to point out the top comment on the video of Rabbi Singer that Ken posted.
“It WAS genocide. But it HAD to be.
They needed to wipe out the Nephilims bloodline.”
Talk about irony.
@Ken Temple
Ken don’t you thinks it’s a bit weird that the judgment on a nation practicing child sacrifice is to murder any remaining children left?
God’s judgment on the pagan nations is not murder. Capital punishment is not murder. God’s justice is not murder.
Some of the pagans escaped with their children to lands outside of Israel.
Again, God was patient with the pagan nations in the promised land for over 400 years – Genesis 15:13-18 “for the iniquity of the Amorite (using one of them to stand for all of the Canaanite pagan tribes). The Amalekites were included in that because they were the ones who FIRST wanted to destroy Israel. (Exodus 17 and book of Esther – Haman the Agagite, a descendent of Agage.)
But there is no more Theocratic Israel. Jesus took the kingdom away from Israel in Matthew 21:33-46.
The kingdom of God is not earthly or political now. The kingdom salvation of God from sin is in the message of Jesus the Messiah spreading over all the earth through the gospel and churches. Not by violence or politics, but by love and truth in evangelism and teaching and suffering.
“Our struggle / war / wrestling match is NOT against flesh and blood, but against the dark forces of this world . . . ” Ephesians 6:12
ie = we should not fight against other human beings, but against evil and Satan and demonic powers and sin within.
“Put away your sword . . . Those that live by the sword will die by the sword . . . ” Matthew 26:52
“My kingdom is not of this world . . . ”
John 18:36
I marvel at how a fundamentalist Christian makes excuses for the deliberate targeting of children and babies for killing. This is how the evil corruption of a human soul is accomplished.
No one has ever been justified in doing anything like that since Jesus the true Messiah took the kingdom of God away from political and military Israel and destroyed the temple in 70 AD. Matthew 21:33-46
In Christian history, killing children is wrong. Joshua 6 and 1 Samuel 15 were temporary time bound commands only for Theocratic Israel of that day; now no more. No more since 70 AD.
The cross and resurrection of Jesus fulfilled all the law, and brought an end to the ceremonial, feasts, sacrifices, temple, priesthood, food laws, judicial punishment laws.
But not the moral law. The moral law shows us our sinful hearts. Romans 7
You need a Savior from guilt and sin. Only Jesus Al Masih and His atonement and resurrection can save you.
Ken – you just tried to justify the cold blooded murder of children. And babies. I don’t give a damn for your excuses and disgusting Christian rationalisations.
Killing children is wrong in any time period, you sick moron! I agree with Paul. Your pagan religion has corrupted your ability to use reason.
Christians have never done that in history and if anyone did, they sinned. No one ever rightly justified anything like in Christian history. 70 AD was a watershed year.
The atonement and resurrection around 30 AD fulfilled the OT.
The message of the gospel is love and truth and grace and opportunity for forgiveness.
You are a lunatic Kennywise, and you will rot in hell for your lies against God.
God is not a bloodthirsty tyrant who orders the brutal murders of babies. You are a piece of garbage for saying that killing babies is not murder because your false god allegedly ordered it. Your god is no different from Molech or any other pagan deity demanding child sacrifices.
No; the NT promises forgiveness, peace and eternal life for me; since I receive Christ as Messiah, Savior, Lord.
John 1:12
Acts 13:38-39
Romans 3:21-26
Romans 10:9-10
John 14:27
Romans 5:1
We have peace with God, being justified by faith in Christ.
Sorry ken. You left out the Farsi bit so we don’t understand what you mean.
ha ha
So, how to Jews who believe in the OT and also know that Molech was an evil false god, how to the Jews like Tovia Singer justify 1 Samuel 15 and Joshua 6?
Who cares how they justify it, moron?
Find out; since you guys are picking and choosing what Tovis Singer says when it suits your rebellious purpose.
No need to “find out” dumbass because excusing infanticide is evil. There is no justification for stabbing a baby and spilling its blood.
And as I said before, we use Jewish views when they are factual. We don’t use for them for their opinions. Get over it and get yourself committed to a mental asylum. Normal people don’t make excuses for infanticide.
Yes you do need to study the issue more; and repent of your wicked rebellion against the Living God, the God of the Bible, the Holy Trinity, who has just wrath against you and your sins.
Romans 1:18
for the wrath of God is revealed against all who suppress the truth in unrighteousness (which is what you are doing)
John 3:36
The wrath of God abides on you . . .
Sick. A man who defends the killing of children has lost all religious credibility and sanity.
Never been justified since AD 30 / AD 70.
Christians never did that nor justified it.
No more Theocratic Israel.
Christians make excuses for it. Nuff said. Christianity is evil.
Only since 30 AD??? So your Jesus would have supported killing a baby in the year 29? #ChristianApologistsAreStupid.
The reality is that it has never been justified from time immemorial because the True God is not a bloodthirsty tyrant like your fake pagan god.
Christianity clearly is the cause of this sort of insanity.
No, moron. I don’t need to “study” the issue more. I already know all I need to know. Your Bible is evil. Your god is evil. You are evil.
And yes, I am proudly in rebellion against your evil and fake god. I worship the True God of Abraham (pbuh), who has forbidden oppression for Himself, though He can do it if He wanted. He is truly merciful, truly compassionate. He is not like your capricious, tyrannical fake god who revels in infanticide.
I do not fear your stupid concept of “God”. 😛
yes you do need to.
You need to get your head out of your rear-end and commit yourself to an asylum. 🤣
Ha Ha.
I have true peace and the gospel offers peace and forgiveness to you.
Take your fake gospel and shove it up your rear-end. 😂
There is no peace in idolatry and worshiping a fake Mafioso god.
I wish you peace.
I wish you hell, unless you somehow miraculously come to your senses. Allah guides whom He pleases. I hope He guides you away from your insane religion. Otherwise, rot in hell.
I wish you salvation of your soul from the evils of your nasty religion.
This is like a Hindu telling me to fear Kali. 😂😂 I don’t fear made-up deities that are copied from other pagan myths.
Ironic that the Allah of Islam skipped over the love and grace and truth of the NT and went back to the warfare of Joshua 6 and 1 Samuel 15.
It is actually your religion that is closer to those things, with all your history of Jihad / Qatals / Harb / Fath (conquering) – Surah 9:5; 9:28-30, 8:39, Dar Al Islam vs. Dar Al Harb, etc.
It is actually your religion that is close in actions like Joshua 6 and I Samuel 15.
The NT put an end to that stuff.
Nice try at deflecting again moron. But we’re not done skewering your evil religion. 😁
“for the iniquity of the Amorite (using one of the Canaanite tribes in the promised land to stand for all of them) is not yet complete / full” Genesis 15:13-18
God gave them over 400 years to repent.
Wrong. Go read 1 Samuel 15. The children were to be killed as a punishment for what their ancestors did 300 years before. Don’t lie to us Ken.
The Amalekites were included in the Harem ban (devoted to destruction) because of their first and continued determination to wipe out Israel – from Exodus 17 onward, and seen also in the Agagites who survived and sought to destroy Israel in Persia during Esther’s time.
So collective punishment of the innocent 300 years later!
They were still determined to destroy Israel.
The children and babies? Ken your rationalisations are sick
“No; the NT promises forgiveness, peace and eternal life for me; since I receive Christ as Messiah, Savior, Lord.”
And your NT is mostly from the devil, so its laughable “promise” is BS. Any book that can get you to excuse infanticide is from the devil.
“They were still determined to destroy Israel.”
So the solution was to whack them and their children like some tyrannical, evil Mafia boss. Got it.
@ Ken
“Christians have never done that in history …”
Cough…Crusades…Cough…Atlantic Slave Trade…Cough…
@ QB and Paul
Can anybody appreciate the irony that the supposedly violent Mooslims are saying you shouldn’t kill babies while the hipple peace-loving Christians are saying its a-okay and the right thing to do?
@ QB
“”Christianity clearly is the cause of this sort of insanity.”
Jews think it’s okay even now though…so there has to be another reason Qb? 🤔🤔🤔
The devil?
@ QB
Well…I…you know what…
@Ken Temple
“God’s judgment on the pagan nations is not murder. Capital punishment is not murder. God’s justice is not murder.”
OK fine, don’t you think it’s a bit weird that the judgment on a nation practicing child sacrifice is to sentence any remaining children left?
But seriously, sine you and Rabbi Singer seem to believe that the children were killed because they would grow up to be enemies of God and Israel can you show me from scripture alone where it states that?
“But there is no more Theocratic Israel. Jesus took the kingdom away from Israel in Matthew 21:33-46.
The kingdom of God is not earthly or political now. The kingdom salvation of God from sin is in the message of Jesus the Messiah spreading over all the earth through the gospel and churches. Not by violence or politics, but by love and truth in evangelism and teaching and suffering.”
You’re missing the point Ken. Yes you can certainty argue that in Christianity a theocratic state and military conflicts are forbidden now when they were allowed in the past.( even though i have several problems with this argument, ESPECIALLY considering the second coming of Christ and the resulting conflicts from it) But that’s not main issue at hand. The main topic of discussion is whether the deliberate killing of children in war is moral or immoral not just NOW but all times.
“But seriously, sine you and Rabbi Singer seem to believe that the children were killed because they would grow up to be enemies of God and Israel can you show me from scripture alone where it states that?”
So now that this possibility was avoided, will those children go to heaven or will the stain of original son condemn them to hell?
This just hasn’t been a good week for Ken.
Terrible! 😱
Kenneth [ great name! 🙂 ] Kitchen discusses that on pages 187-188 of “On the Reliability of the Old Testament”
https://books.google.com/books?id=Kw6U05qBiXcC&q=long%2C+long+since+gone#v=snippet&q=long%2C%20long%20since%20gone&f=false
I actually do have Kitchen’s book (see above) and he makes excellent points. Thanks QB for mentioning Kitchen, which led me to pull that book off my shelves and delve into it.
“If 200 years of erosion sufficed to remove most of later Middle Bronze Jericho, it is almost a miracle that anything on the mound has survived at all from 400 years of erosion between 1275 and the time of Ahab (875-853) . . . ” etc.
” . . . all of this has long, long since gone.”
Ibid, page 187
when did he write this? Long before the recent excavations I referred to i bet!
You can see the date on the first few pages at the Amazon link.
its an old text. My references are much more recent. You are refuted. End of.
LOL
2005 is hardly “much more recent” than 2003.
Just referencing a work without actual quotes or argumentation is not persuasive.
See: Killebrew, Ann E. (2005). Biblical Peoples and Ethnicity: An Archaeological Study of Egyptians, Canaanites, and Early Israel, 1300–1100 B.C.E. Society of Biblical Literature.
he didn’t write it in 2005 dummy. That’s the latest edition. The book is quite old.
Ann is she. When was the original written?
You have been arguing based on “the latest research”. Now you jump back to “the older research”. You just jump and obfuscate.
Killebrew, Ann E. (2005). Biblical Peoples and Ethnicity: An Archaeological Study of Egyptians, Canaanites, and Early Israel, 1300–1100 B.C.E. Society of Biblical Literature.
🤣 So Kennywise blindly accepts Kitchen’s convenient claim. So somehow, the evidence for the destruction from 1500 BC has survived, but the so-called “evidence” from 1400 BC has somehow not managed to survive. Wow!
And of course, this is assuming that the Israelites entered Canaan in the 1400s. Most chronologies put their entrance around the 1200 BC.
It is not convenient when archeologists are admitting that even the much later periods were eroded away, so Kitchen is right that the earlier periods are even more sure eroded away. Time (with wind and water and deposition and microbes, etc.) eventually gets rid of extant material witness.
It is convenient you moron that the evidence for Joshua’s Jericho has “eroded” but the one from the 1500s is still there. This is another example of Christians trying to manipulate the evidence.
And again, as I said, even if we allow for this convenient excuse, depending on which chronology you use, the Israelites had to have entered Canaan in the 1400s BC, and yet the Merneptah stele mentions the Israelites as a people without a land in the 1200s BC, indicating that they were still wandering around. Most Christians believe Ramesses II was the Pharaoh of the Exodus. That means Jericho’s destruction occurred much earlier.
https://www.amazon.com/Reliability-Old-Testament-K-Kitchen/dp/0802803962/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=9780802803962&linkCode=qs&qid=1584996140&s=books&sr=1-1