It’s the best way to do away with some idea when it is reduced to irrelevancy. Like a Tiger without claws nor teeth, it poses little danger to the society that is forever at odds with it.
Islam in the Muslim World.
Reduction of the Transcendent, logical, moral, consistent with modern science, mathematically miraculous teachings of the Qur’an (words of God according to Islam)
to the
at times contradictory, occasionally ethically disquieting and even disturbing, at times anthropomorphic, at times far-fatched,occasionally supporting resigning and accepting despotic rulers, at times leading to justifications for extremist actions—from the often decontextualized words or interpretations of hadith–the alleged hearsay from a dead person allegedly from another not well known dead person(s) allegedly from another not well known dead person(s) allegedly from another not well known dead person(s) allegedly from another not well known dead person(s) allegedly from another dead person(s) allegedly from the Muhammad, son of Abdullah (who the Qur’an explicitly says was not responsible for anything except for clearly communicating (the Qur’an) and who never commissioned any of his many, many companions to collect any of his scattered sayings.
It was the later Caliphs who gave the orders to collect the Qur’an –
“Then I said (to `Umar and Abu Bakr), “How can you do something which Allah’s Messenger (ﷺ) did not do?” Abu Bakr said, “By Allah, it is something beneficial.” Zaid added: So he (Abu Bakr) kept on pressing me for that until Allah opened my chest for that for which He had opened the chests of Abu Bakr and `Umar, and I had in that matter, the same opinion as theirs. ”
Narrated Zaid bin Thabit:
Abu Bakr sent for me owing to the large number of casualties in the battle of Al-Yamama, while `Umar was sitting with him. Abu Bakr said (to me), `Umar has come to my and said, ‘A great number of Qaris of the Holy Qur’an were killed on the day of the battle of Al-Yamama, and I am afraid that the casualties among the Qaris of the Qur’an may increase on other battle-fields whereby a large part of the Qur’an may be lost. Therefore I consider it advisable that you (Abu Bakr) should have the Qur’an collected.’ I said, ‘How dare I do something which Allah’s Messenger (ﷺ) did not do?’ `Umar said, By Allah, it is something beneficial.’ `Umar kept on pressing me for that till Allah opened my chest for that for which He had opened the chest of `Umar and I had in that matter, the same opinion as `Umar had.” Abu Bakr then said to me (Zaid), “You are a wise young man and we do not have any suspicion about you, and you used to write the Divine Inspiration for Allah’s Messenger (ﷺ). So you should search for the fragmentary scripts of the Qur’an and collect it (in one Book).” Zaid further said: By Allah, if Abu Bakr had ordered me to shift a mountain among the mountains from one place to another it would not have been heavier for me than this ordering me to collect the Qur’an. Then I said (to `Umar and Abu Bakr), “How can you do something which Allah’s Messenger (ﷺ) did not do?” Abu Bakr said, “By Allah, it is something beneficial.” Zaid added: So he (Abu Bakr) kept on pressing me for that until Allah opened my chest for that for which He had opened the chests of Abu Bakr and `Umar, and I had in that matter, the same opinion as theirs. So I started compiling the Qur’an by collecting it from the leafless stalks of the date-palm tree and from the pieces of leather and hides and from the stones, and from the chests of men (who had memorized the Qur’an). I found the last verses of Sirat-at-Tauba: (“Verily there has come unto you an Apostle (Muhammad) from amongst yourselves–‘ (9.128-129) ) from Khuza`ima or Abi Khuza`ima and I added to it the rest of the Sura. The manuscripts of the Qur’an remained with Abu Bakr till Allah took him unto Him. Then it remained with `Umar till Allah took him unto Him, and then with Hafsa bint `Umar.
Reference : Sahih al-Bukhari 7191
In-book reference : Book 93, Hadith 53
USC-MSA web (English) reference : Vol. 9, Book 89, Hadith 301
1. If he did, how many of his companions followed that claim you make and put sufficient efforts to compile and publish a full collection of the Prophet’s sayings in his entire Prophetic career?
There is some evidence that the companion who was exposed the most to the Prophet–Ali ibn Abi Talib, who is likely the most intelligent, knowledgable, pious and courageous of all companions–had an extensive personal collection and taught his family but I don’t see any solid evidence that even he tried to endeavored for a full collection and did he publish it to all?
So, is the answer any number other than zero?
2. Forget about a full collection…what percentage of “companions” even had a personal collection?
Is it 0.1%, 0.01%, or 0.001%
“also he never commissioned the Quran to be gathered into a singular text….”
I don’t know about that but what you say is possibly true since that is what a few hadith indicate.
However, it is a moot point.
No one disputes that the Prophet commissioned people to transcribe his utterances of the Qur’an.
There was no book in the HIjaz at that time. They did not even have paper. But all the verses of the Qur’an were transcribed and that was obviously done for transmission to you and I.
And there are multiple hadith where the Prophet explicitly forbade his companions to transcribe his own sayings and even wanted people to erase anything if they did transcribe it.
And the Qur’an itself tells the Prophet and us that God will ensure the Qur’an will be preserved so the Prophet did not need to worry about putting it into a book if he believed in what he sensed as revelations to be from God and I believe that he believed 15:9 was from God!
And Surah 75 tells the Prophet that he does not need to worry that God will bring the Qur’an together.
The western artwork is indeed emphasizing the gentleness and love and care of Jesus, but that does not preclude His wrath against sin and His call for repentance to unbelievers, not His right to judge sinners in hell at their deaths or at the second coming of Christ.
You are begin inconsistent by this post, when you also complained about God’s right to judge sinners at the second coming of Christ – Revelation 19-20, etc.
Br paul. I don’t know Englis well but I was flowing you in speaker corners. I couldn’t understand all argument. Also I find you very good Muslim. At last became a fitne. Ekstrimist ‘muslims’ attact you and something go on. Just I woder you don’t like extrimists as much as finished your rleationship with mansur. Why you are with roj and stive and others. They look like same ebu Kasım. Anyway I hope you retorn your mision again in park and give dawah soon. Selam aleyküm.
I forgot to add how Islam has been reduced to sectarianism also because of hadiths
Does anyone knows about Islamic early history believes that this hadith is more likely to be true than not?
It is in Bukhari’s collection narrated supposedly by Anas bin Malik (who is attributed to narrate over 2,000 hadiths)
Did the companions really know that Umar (ra) and Uthman (ra) would be killed? Did the huge number of companions including Muhammad, son of Abu Bakr who revolted against the nepotism of Uthman bin Affan believe in this hadith?
Narrated Anas bin Malik:
The Prophet sallallahu `alayhi wa sallam once climbed the mountain of Uhud with Abu Bakr, ‘Umar and ‘Uthman radhiallahu `anhum. The mountain shook with them. The Prophet said (to the mountain), “Be firm, O Uhud! For on you there are no more than a Prophet, a Siddiq and two martyrs.”
( Sahih Bukhari Companions of the Prophet [VOL 5: Hadith No. 1-119] )
comforting
the reduction of transcendent faith to sentimental subjectivity.
cozy
It’s the best way to do away with some idea when it is reduced to irrelevancy. Like a Tiger without claws nor teeth, it poses little danger to the society that is forever at odds with it.
Good observation.
How religions change the Words of God….
Islam in the Muslim World.
Reduction of the Transcendent, logical, moral, consistent with modern science, mathematically miraculous teachings of the Qur’an (words of God according to Islam)
to the
at times contradictory, occasionally ethically disquieting and even disturbing, at times anthropomorphic, at times far-fatched,occasionally supporting resigning and accepting despotic rulers, at times leading to justifications for extremist actions—from the often decontextualized words or interpretations of hadith–the alleged hearsay from a dead person allegedly from another not well known dead person(s) allegedly from another not well known dead person(s) allegedly from another not well known dead person(s) allegedly from another not well known dead person(s) allegedly from another dead person(s) allegedly from the Muhammad, son of Abdullah (who the Qur’an explicitly says was not responsible for anything except for clearly communicating (the Qur’an) and who never commissioned any of his many, many companions to collect any of his scattered sayings.
Except when he did…also he never commissioned the Quran to be gathered into a singular text….
It was the later Caliphs who gave the orders to collect the Qur’an –
“Then I said (to `Umar and Abu Bakr), “How can you do something which Allah’s Messenger (ﷺ) did not do?” Abu Bakr said, “By Allah, it is something beneficial.” Zaid added: So he (Abu Bakr) kept on pressing me for that until Allah opened my chest for that for which He had opened the chests of Abu Bakr and `Umar, and I had in that matter, the same opinion as theirs. ”
Narrated Zaid bin Thabit:
Abu Bakr sent for me owing to the large number of casualties in the battle of Al-Yamama, while `Umar was sitting with him. Abu Bakr said (to me), `Umar has come to my and said, ‘A great number of Qaris of the Holy Qur’an were killed on the day of the battle of Al-Yamama, and I am afraid that the casualties among the Qaris of the Qur’an may increase on other battle-fields whereby a large part of the Qur’an may be lost. Therefore I consider it advisable that you (Abu Bakr) should have the Qur’an collected.’ I said, ‘How dare I do something which Allah’s Messenger (ﷺ) did not do?’ `Umar said, By Allah, it is something beneficial.’ `Umar kept on pressing me for that till Allah opened my chest for that for which He had opened the chest of `Umar and I had in that matter, the same opinion as `Umar had.” Abu Bakr then said to me (Zaid), “You are a wise young man and we do not have any suspicion about you, and you used to write the Divine Inspiration for Allah’s Messenger (ﷺ). So you should search for the fragmentary scripts of the Qur’an and collect it (in one Book).” Zaid further said: By Allah, if Abu Bakr had ordered me to shift a mountain among the mountains from one place to another it would not have been heavier for me than this ordering me to collect the Qur’an. Then I said (to `Umar and Abu Bakr), “How can you do something which Allah’s Messenger (ﷺ) did not do?” Abu Bakr said, “By Allah, it is something beneficial.” Zaid added: So he (Abu Bakr) kept on pressing me for that until Allah opened my chest for that for which He had opened the chests of Abu Bakr and `Umar, and I had in that matter, the same opinion as theirs. So I started compiling the Qur’an by collecting it from the leafless stalks of the date-palm tree and from the pieces of leather and hides and from the stones, and from the chests of men (who had memorized the Qur’an). I found the last verses of Sirat-at-Tauba: (“Verily there has come unto you an Apostle (Muhammad) from amongst yourselves–‘ (9.128-129) ) from Khuza`ima or Abi Khuza`ima and I added to it the rest of the Sura. The manuscripts of the Qur’an remained with Abu Bakr till Allah took him unto Him. Then it remained with `Umar till Allah took him unto Him, and then with Hafsa bint `Umar.
Reference : Sahih al-Bukhari 7191
In-book reference : Book 93, Hadith 53
USC-MSA web (English) reference : Vol. 9, Book 89, Hadith 301
https://sunnah.com/bukhari/93/53
“Except when he did”
Oh, really?
1. If he did, how many of his companions followed that claim you make and put sufficient efforts to compile and publish a full collection of the Prophet’s sayings in his entire Prophetic career?
There is some evidence that the companion who was exposed the most to the Prophet–Ali ibn Abi Talib, who is likely the most intelligent, knowledgable, pious and courageous of all companions–had an extensive personal collection and taught his family but I don’t see any solid evidence that even he tried to endeavored for a full collection and did he publish it to all?
So, is the answer any number other than zero?
2. Forget about a full collection…what percentage of “companions” even had a personal collection?
Is it 0.1%, 0.01%, or 0.001%
“also he never commissioned the Quran to be gathered into a singular text….”
I don’t know about that but what you say is possibly true since that is what a few hadith indicate.
However, it is a moot point.
No one disputes that the Prophet commissioned people to transcribe his utterances of the Qur’an.
There was no book in the HIjaz at that time. They did not even have paper. But all the verses of the Qur’an were transcribed and that was obviously done for transmission to you and I.
And there are multiple hadith where the Prophet explicitly forbade his companions to transcribe his own sayings and even wanted people to erase anything if they did transcribe it.
And the Qur’an itself tells the Prophet and us that God will ensure the Qur’an will be preserved so the Prophet did not need to worry about putting it into a book if he believed in what he sensed as revelations to be from God and I believe that he believed 15:9 was from God!
And Surah 75 tells the Prophet that he does not need to worry that God will bring the Qur’an together.
@ Ihsan
Have beaten this horse past to death and into ground meat. You disbelieving in Islam is not everyone else’s concern.
The western artwork is indeed emphasizing the gentleness and love and care of Jesus, but that does not preclude His wrath against sin and His call for repentance to unbelievers, not His right to judge sinners in hell at their deaths or at the second coming of Christ.
You are begin inconsistent by this post, when you also complained about God’s right to judge sinners at the second coming of Christ – Revelation 19-20, etc.
https://bloggingtheology.com/2019/06/22/jesus-unlike-muhammad-loved-his-enemies-i-beg-to-differ/
Br paul. I don’t know Englis well but I was flowing you in speaker corners. I couldn’t understand all argument. Also I find you very good Muslim. At last became a fitne. Ekstrimist ‘muslims’ attact you and something go on. Just I woder you don’t like extrimists as much as finished your rleationship with mansur. Why you are with roj and stive and others. They look like same ebu Kasım. Anyway I hope you retorn your mision again in park and give dawah soon. Selam aleyküm.
I forgot to add how Islam has been reduced to sectarianism also because of hadiths
Does anyone knows about Islamic early history believes that this hadith is more likely to be true than not?
It is in Bukhari’s collection narrated supposedly by Anas bin Malik (who is attributed to narrate over 2,000 hadiths)
Did the companions really know that Umar (ra) and Uthman (ra) would be killed? Did the huge number of companions including Muhammad, son of Abu Bakr who revolted against the nepotism of Uthman bin Affan believe in this hadith?
Narrated Anas bin Malik:
The Prophet sallallahu `alayhi wa sallam once climbed the mountain of Uhud with Abu Bakr, ‘Umar and ‘Uthman radhiallahu `anhum. The mountain shook with them. The Prophet said (to the mountain), “Be firm, O Uhud! For on you there are no more than a Prophet, a Siddiq and two martyrs.”
( Sahih Bukhari Companions of the Prophet [VOL 5: Hadith No. 1-119] )