I don’t have an axe to grind here, though is it really obvious that is about David or any historical figure of the Bible for that matter? I think the most icommon Jewish interpretation is that it’s the Jewish Messiah (David is also suggested though) and Christians also see it as their Messiah.
\Even if we ignore Psalm 2:7 for a second Luke still calls Adam(as) the “son of God”. Outside of this, the context in the Psalm is referring to David(as) as he is a messiah (due to being a king). As we read in the verse before the one in question:
7I will proclaim the decree spoken to ME by the LORD:
If one cross references it with 2 Samuel 7:11-14 then there’s no doubt:
The LORD declares to you that He Himself will establish a house for you. 12And when your days are fulfilled and you rest with your fathers, I will raise up your offspring after you, who will come from your own body, and I will establish his kingdom. 13He will build a house for My Name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. 14I will be his Father, and he will be My son.
“Son of God” simply means one is the ruler of Israel.
“A good example is when the Bible applies the title “Son of God” to Jesus, as in Psalm 2:7, where God says, “You are my Son; today I have begotten you.” We naturally think of the controversies in the early church, and connect this title with Jesus’s deity…Psalm 2:7 has to do with the Davidic king. At a time when the Gentile kingdoms in the Davidic empire seek to throw off Israelite rule, this psalm recalls the promises made to the Davidic king at his coronation and notes that the Gentiles will find lasting joy only as subjects of this king.
The coronation oracle had declared the newly crowned king to be God’s “Son”; this recalls 2 Samuel 7:14, where God promises to David concerning Solomon, and then each new king in the line of David: “I will be to him a father, and he shall be to me a son.” This is talking about more than just the close relationship God will have with the king. The people as a whole are called the “son of God” (see Ex. 4:22–23; Hos. 11:1; Ps. 80:15), and the king is called the “son of God” because he represents and embodies the people (see also Ps. 89:27, with “firstborn”).”
No harm no foul. if I may ask because I just to pick your brain and get some perspective, why would you still hold the opinion that the son doesn’t mean a ruler of Israel even with the corresponding text of God saying He is “adopting” David’s (as) son Solomon(as)?
@stewjo
It is possible as you say. I just think it is very subtle. But then it is not talking about king David Anymore, but the institution of kings or kingship. You mentioned an interesting point so may I also ask you, do Muslims also believe that king David is a Messiah?
From a Muslim perspective David(as) being a Messiah wouldn’t contradict anything and there are verses in the Quran saying God chose him to rule. So I wouldn’t see a problem with it. And God knows best.
Hmmm…that’s a good question. I think several points need to be made:
1. THEE Messiah(as) doesn’t necessarily be foretold
While the overwhelming evidence seems to suggest otherwise, a prophet doesn’t necessarily need to be foretold to be sent to a people. Examples of this would include Noah(as), Abraham(as) and David(as). So whether Jesus(as) was foretold or not by previous prophets has no effect on his status to us.
2. The OT and the Torah
Now, this isn’t necessarily Islam’s “official position” but I personally don’t believe the Old Testament is the Scripture that was given to Moses(as). For simple reading, I wrote an article and made a chart of my personal opinion (just skip to the chart and my brief explanation)
I am doing this as part 3 to my crucifixion series but I do believe there are allusions to Jesus(as) if one uses direct references of the Messiah in these texts (a this would apply to him as well) and keeps in mind that by calling himself the “son” he is simply claiming to be David’s(as) descendant and the rightful king of Israel (which is correct)
So using Psalm 2:
Why do the nations rage and the peoples plot in vain? The kings of the earth take their stand and the rulers gather together, against the LORD and against His Messiah: “Let us break their chains and throw off their shackles.” The One enthroned in heaven laughs; the Lord taunts them. Then He rebukes them in His anger, and terrifies them in His fury (Psalm 2:1-5)
I see no reason this can’t apply to Jesus(as). The Romans, Jews and Herod gather against Jesus(as) and God stopped their evil plan to kill him by tricking them and then Hell is their final home. Even though the original context is David(as) in Psalm 2 this applies to Jesus(as) because he is his descendant:
He brings great salvation to His king. He shows loving devotion to His Messiah, to David and his descendants forever. (Psalms 18:50)
So imo anything that mentions the Messiah or Son clearly (not like how the NT authors tried to force things unrelated together) can apply to Jesus(as). And again God knows best.
@ stewjo
Thank you for your efforts in giving a detailed reply, I realky appreciate it. I will take a look at the link, hopefully one of these days. If you don”t mind I have one more question:. Is the Muslim concept of Messiah the same as in Judaism and Christianity and if not what are the main differences?
I don’t mind your questions at all Jane I find them quite interesting as I never thought about them. Again it’s a multi-faceted answer;
1. Similarities with Judaism
Will fill the world with justice and knowledge about God. Will guide the Jews to proper religion.
2. Similarities with Christianity
It’s Jesus, will return, will kill the Anti-Christ (whose symbols one eye), will fill the world with justice and knowledge about God. Not sent only to the Jewish people.
3. Differences with Judaism
Will not prove Judaism as the true religion (it will be the opposite).
4. Differences with Christianity
Will not be worshipped (he will be sent to prove the error of the Christians in worshipping him and the Jews in rejecting him, will get married and have children, will rule from a period of 7-40 years depending on one’s interpretation and then die. The world will not end it is only one of the signs of the Hour but pretty much all the Muslims will die in that generation and the Qur’an will be forgotten. The subsequent generations will be worse and a believer in God will only have:
“My forefathers used to believe in One God so I do.”
5. Bonus trivia
Ignoring Christian and Jewish text now, from a PURE ARABIC perspective the name has multiple meanings:
The word “Al Masiha” (The Messiah) could be either “Mamsooh” (i.e. the one who is wiped) or “Masih” (i.e. the Wiper).
Mamsooh” (the one who is wiped)
A. Wiped with blessings.
“Masih” (the Wiper).
B. He wipes out idolatry and disbelief in God
C. By wiping over people with his hands he would heal them
D. He never had a home for himself (the Arabic phrase “Masaha al-Ard” implies a person travels a lot).
I like what you do. I really think those people need a moment to reflect about what they’re actually saying.
I don’t have an axe to grind here, though is it really obvious that is about David or any historical figure of the Bible for that matter? I think the most icommon Jewish interpretation is that it’s the Jewish Messiah (David is also suggested though) and Christians also see it as their Messiah.
@ Jane E
\Even if we ignore Psalm 2:7 for a second Luke still calls Adam(as) the “son of God”. Outside of this, the context in the Psalm is referring to David(as) as he is a messiah (due to being a king). As we read in the verse before the one in question:
7I will proclaim the decree spoken to ME by the LORD:
“YOU are My Son; today I have become Your Father.
https://biblehub.com/bsb/psalms/2.htm
If one cross references it with 2 Samuel 7:11-14 then there’s no doubt:
The LORD declares to you that He Himself will establish a house for you. 12And when your days are fulfilled and you rest with your fathers, I will raise up your offspring after you, who will come from your own body, and I will establish his kingdom. 13He will build a house for My Name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. 14I will be his Father, and he will be My son.
https://biblehub.com/bsb/2_samuel/7.htm
“Son of God” simply means one is the ruler of Israel.
“A good example is when the Bible applies the title “Son of God” to Jesus, as in Psalm 2:7, where God says, “You are my Son; today I have begotten you.” We naturally think of the controversies in the early church, and connect this title with Jesus’s deity…Psalm 2:7 has to do with the Davidic king. At a time when the Gentile kingdoms in the Davidic empire seek to throw off Israelite rule, this psalm recalls the promises made to the Davidic king at his coronation and notes that the Gentiles will find lasting joy only as subjects of this king.
The coronation oracle had declared the newly crowned king to be God’s “Son”; this recalls 2 Samuel 7:14, where God promises to David concerning Solomon, and then each new king in the line of David: “I will be to him a father, and he shall be to me a son.” This is talking about more than just the close relationship God will have with the king. The people as a whole are called the “son of God” (see Ex. 4:22–23; Hos. 11:1; Ps. 80:15), and the king is called the “son of God” because he represents and embodies the people (see also Ps. 89:27, with “firstborn”).”
https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/the-son-of-god-is-the-son-of-david/
People just misunderstood this and went to the extreme making another idol to worship alongside God.
Hi Stewjo
Thanks, a lot interesting idea. Still think the text is vague but I get your point. I suppose it might just be me.
@ Jane E
No harm no foul. if I may ask because I just to pick your brain and get some perspective, why would you still hold the opinion that the son doesn’t mean a ruler of Israel even with the corresponding text of God saying He is “adopting” David’s (as) son Solomon(as)?
@stewjo
It is possible as you say. I just think it is very subtle. But then it is not talking about king David Anymore, but the institution of kings or kingship. You mentioned an interesting point so may I also ask you, do Muslims also believe that king David is a Messiah?
@ Jane E.
From a Muslim perspective David(as) being a Messiah wouldn’t contradict anything and there are verses in the Quran saying God chose him to rule. So I wouldn’t see a problem with it. And God knows best.
I see. Could it from an Islamic pow in principle also be Jesus or is it only in Christianity that Jesus is “found” in the Old Testament?
@ Jane
Hmmm…that’s a good question. I think several points need to be made:
1. THEE Messiah(as) doesn’t necessarily be foretold
While the overwhelming evidence seems to suggest otherwise, a prophet doesn’t necessarily need to be foretold to be sent to a people. Examples of this would include Noah(as), Abraham(as) and David(as). So whether Jesus(as) was foretold or not by previous prophets has no effect on his status to us.
2. The OT and the Torah
Now, this isn’t necessarily Islam’s “official position” but I personally don’t believe the Old Testament is the Scripture that was given to Moses(as). For simple reading, I wrote an article and made a chart of my personal opinion (just skip to the chart and my brief explanation)
https://quranandbibleblog.wordpress.com/2019/02/24/corruption-of-the-scriptures-part-i-does-islam-confirm-the-bible-as-a-scripture-from-god/
3. With that being said…
I am doing this as part 3 to my crucifixion series but I do believe there are allusions to Jesus(as) if one uses direct references of the Messiah in these texts (a this would apply to him as well) and keeps in mind that by calling himself the “son” he is simply claiming to be David’s(as) descendant and the rightful king of Israel (which is correct)
So using Psalm 2:
Why do the nations rage and the peoples plot in vain? The kings of the earth take their stand and the rulers gather together, against the LORD and against His Messiah: “Let us break their chains and throw off their shackles.” The One enthroned in heaven laughs; the Lord taunts them. Then He rebukes them in His anger, and terrifies them in His fury (Psalm 2:1-5)
I see no reason this can’t apply to Jesus(as). The Romans, Jews and Herod gather against Jesus(as) and God stopped their evil plan to kill him by tricking them and then Hell is their final home. Even though the original context is David(as) in Psalm 2 this applies to Jesus(as) because he is his descendant:
He brings great salvation to His king. He shows loving devotion to His Messiah, to David and his descendants forever. (Psalms 18:50)
So imo anything that mentions the Messiah or Son clearly (not like how the NT authors tried to force things unrelated together) can apply to Jesus(as). And again God knows best.
@ stewjo
Thank you for your efforts in giving a detailed reply, I realky appreciate it. I will take a look at the link, hopefully one of these days. If you don”t mind I have one more question:. Is the Muslim concept of Messiah the same as in Judaism and Christianity and if not what are the main differences?
@ Jane E.
I don’t mind your questions at all Jane I find them quite interesting as I never thought about them. Again it’s a multi-faceted answer;
1. Similarities with Judaism
Will fill the world with justice and knowledge about God. Will guide the Jews to proper religion.
2. Similarities with Christianity
It’s Jesus, will return, will kill the Anti-Christ (whose symbols one eye), will fill the world with justice and knowledge about God. Not sent only to the Jewish people.
3. Differences with Judaism
Will not prove Judaism as the true religion (it will be the opposite).
4. Differences with Christianity
Will not be worshipped (he will be sent to prove the error of the Christians in worshipping him and the Jews in rejecting him, will get married and have children, will rule from a period of 7-40 years depending on one’s interpretation and then die. The world will not end it is only one of the signs of the Hour but pretty much all the Muslims will die in that generation and the Qur’an will be forgotten. The subsequent generations will be worse and a believer in God will only have:
“My forefathers used to believe in One God so I do.”
5. Bonus trivia
Ignoring Christian and Jewish text now, from a PURE ARABIC perspective the name has multiple meanings:
The word “Al Masiha” (The Messiah) could be either “Mamsooh” (i.e. the one who is wiped) or “Masih” (i.e. the Wiper).
Mamsooh” (the one who is wiped)
A. Wiped with blessings.
“Masih” (the Wiper).
B. He wipes out idolatry and disbelief in God
C. By wiping over people with his hands he would heal them
D. He never had a home for himself (the Arabic phrase “Masaha al-Ard” implies a person travels a lot).
@stewjo
Thanks a lot for your efforts.
When will you ever learn “studied theology at uni in Greek”?
@Harris + Ford:
??