Quoted from the Washington Post: “The alleged synagogue shooter was a churchgoer who talked Christian theology, raising tough questions for evangelical pastors”
Quote from Douche Watch: “Watson, along with a handleful of other gutter trash, joined forces together to plan out their annual Young Earth Creationist shitstain circle jerk get together.. A sort of Burning Man for Homoerotic Internet Trolls. Watson, when interviewed by Douche Watch local reporters, said “This year I will give the honorary “Fucktard” reach around to Ken, Iggy, Agnostic and of course Douche Lord Supreme, His Smelly Infernal Obese Majesty, Shamu Sham Shamoun”
“Quoted from the Washington Post: “The alleged synagogue shooter was a churchgoer who talked Christian theology, raising tough questions for evangelical pastors”
But who is obeying his God’s written laws and who isn’t?
Bukhari (52:177) – Allah’s Apostle said, “The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. “O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him.”
Bukhari (52:256) – The Prophet… was asked whether it was permissible to attack the pagan warriors at night with the probability of exposing their women and children to danger. The Prophet replied, “They (i.e. women and children) are from them (i.e. pagans).” In this command, Muhammad establishes that it is permissible to kill non-combatants in the process of killing a perceived enemy. This provides justification for the many Islamic terror bombings.
Bukhari (52:220) – Allah’s Apostle said… ‘I have been made victorious with terror’
Abu Dawud (14:2526) – The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: Three things are the roots of faith: to refrain from (killing) a person who utters, “There is no god but Allah” and not to declare him unbeliever whatever sin he commits, and not to excommunicate him from Islam for his any action; and jihad will be performed continuously since the day Allah sent me as a prophet until the day the last member of my community will fight with the Dajjal (Antichrist)
Abu Dawud (14:2527) – The Prophet said: Striving in the path of Allah (jihad) is incumbent on you along with every ruler, whether he is pious or impious
Muslim (1:33) – the Messenger of Allah said: I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah
Bukhari (8:387) – Allah’s Apostle said, “I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: ‘None has the right to be worshipped but Allah
Muslim (1:149) – “Abu Dharr reported: I said: Messenger of Allah, which of the deeds is the best? He (the Holy Prophet) replied: Belief in Allah and Jihad in His cause…”
Muslim (20:4645) – “…He (the Messenger of Allah) did that and said: There is another act which elevates the position of a man in Paradise to a grade one hundred (higher), and the elevation between one grade and the other is equal to the height of the heaven from the earth. He (Abu Sa’id) said: What is that act? He replied: Jihad in the way of Allah! Jihad in the way of Allah!”
Muslim (20:4696) – “the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: ‘One who died but did not fight in the way of Allah nor did he express any desire (or determination) for Jihid died the death of a hypocrite.'”
Muslim (19:4321-4323) – Three separate hadith in which Muhammad shrugs over the news that innocent children were killed in a raid by his men against unbelievers. His response: “They are of them (meaning the enemy).”
Tabari 7:97 The morning after the murder of Ashraf, the Prophet declared, “Kill any Jew who falls under your power.” Ashraf was a poet, killed by Muhammad’s men because he insulted Islam. Here, Muhammad widens the scope of his orders to kill. An innocent Jewish businessman was then slain by his Muslim partner, merely for being non-Muslim.
Tabari 9:69 “Killing Unbelievers is a small matter to us” The words of Muhammad, prophet of Islam.
Ibn Ishaq: 327 – “Allah said, ‘A prophet must slaughter before collecting captives. A slaughtered enemy is driven from the land. Muhammad, you craved the desires of this world, its goods and the ransom captives would bring. But Allah desires killing them to manifest the religion.’”
Ibn Ishaq: 990 – Lest anyone think that cutting off someone’s head while screaming ‘Allah Akbar!’ is a modern custom, here is an account of that very practice under Muhammad, who seems to approve.
Ibn Ishaq: 992 – “Fight everyone in the way of Allah and kill those who disbelieve in Allah.” Muhammad’s instructions to his men prior to a military raid.
The Quran:
Quran (2:191-193) – “And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution [of Muslims] is worse than slaughter [of non-believers]… but if desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah.”
There is a good case to be made that the textual context of this particular passage is defensive war, even if the historical context was not. However, there are also two worrisome pieces to this verse. The first is that the killing of others is authorized in the event of “persecution” (a qualification that is ambiguous at best). The second is that fighting may persist until “religion is for Allah.” The example set by Muhammad is not reassuring.
Quran (2:244) – “Then fight in the cause of Allah, and know that Allah Heareth and knoweth all things.”
Quran (2:216) – “Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not.” Not only does this verse establish that violence can be virtuous, but it also contradicts the myth that fighting is intended only in self-defense, since the audience was obviously not under attack at the time. From the Hadith, we know that Muhammad was actually trying to motivate his people into raiding caravans with this verse.
Quran (3:56) – “As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help.”
Quran (3:151) – “Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority”. This speaks directly of polytheists, yet it also includes Christians, since they believe in the Trinity (ie. what Muhammad incorrectly believed to be ‘joining companions to Allah’).
Quran (4:74) – “Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward.” The martyrs of Islam are unlike the early Christians, led meekly to the slaughter. These Muslims are killed in battle, as they attempt to inflict death and destruction for the cause of Allah. Here is the theological basis for today’s suicide bombers.
Quran (4:76) – “Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah…”
Quran (4:89) – “They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks.”
Quran (4:95) – “Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah with their goods and their persons. Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit (at home). Unto all (in Faith) Hath Allah promised good: But those who strive and fight Hath He distinguished above those who sit (at home) by a special reward,-” This passage criticizes “peaceful” Muslims who do not join in the violence, letting them know that they are less worthy in Allah’s eyes. It also demolishes the modern myth that “Jihad” doesn’t mean holy war in the Quran, but rather a spiritual struggle. Not only is the Arabic word used in this passage, but it is clearly not referring to anything spiritual, since the physically disabled are given exemption. (The Hadith reveals the context of the passage to be in response to a blind man’s protest that he is unable to engage in Jihad and this is reflected in other translations of the verse).
Quran (4:104) – “And be not weak hearted in pursuit of the enemy; if you suffer pain, then surely they (too) suffer pain as you suffer pain…” Is pursuing an injured and retreating enemy really an act of self-defense?
Quran (5:33) – “The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement”
Quran (8:12) – “I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them” No reasonable person would interpret this to mean a spiritual struggle.
Quran (8:15) – “O ye who believe! When ye meet those who disbelieve in battle, turn not your backs to them. (16)Whoso on that day turneth his back to them, unless maneuvering for battle or intent to join a company, he truly hath incurred wrath from Allah, and his habitation will be hell, a hapless journey’s end.”
Quran (8:39) – “And fight with them until there is no more persecution and religion should be only for Allah” From the historical context we know that the “persecution” spoken of here was simply the refusal by the Meccans to allow Muhammad to enter their city and perform the Haj. Other Muslims were able to travel there, just not as an armed group, since Muhammad declared war on Mecca prior to his eviction. The Meccans were also acting in defense of their religion, since it was Muhammad’s intention to destroy their idols and establish Islam by force (which he later did). Hence the critical part of this verse is to fight until “religion is only for Allah.” According to Ibn Ishaq (324), Muhammad justified the violence further by explaining that “Allah must have no rivals.”
Quran (8:57) – “If thou comest on them in the war, deal with them so as to strike fear in those who are behind them, that haply they may remember.”
Quran (8:59-60) – “And let not those who disbelieve suppose that they can outstrip (Allah’s Purpose). Lo! they cannot escape. Make ready for them all thou canst of (armed) force and of horses tethered, that thereby ye may dismay the enemy of Allah and your enemy.”
Quran (8:65) – “O Prophet, exhort the believers to fight…”
Quran (9:5) – “So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them.” According to this verse, the best way of staying safe from Muslim violence is to convert to Islam. Prayer (salat) and the poor tax (zakat) are among the religions Five Pillars.
Quran (9:14) – “Fight them, Allah will punish them by your hands and bring them to disgrace…”
Quran (9:20) – “Those who believe, and have left their homes and striven with their wealth and their lives in Allah’s way are of much greater worth in Allah’s sight. These are they who are triumphant.” The “striving” spoken of here is Jihad.
Quran (9:29) – “Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.” “People of the Book” refers to Christians and Jews. This was one of the final “revelations” from Allah and it set in motion the tenacious military expansion, in which Muhammad’s companions managed to conquer two-thirds of the Christian world in just the next 100 years. Islam is intended to dominate all other people and faiths.
Quran (9:30) – “And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!”
Quran (9:38-39) – “O ye who believe! what is the matter with you, that, when ye are asked to go forth in the cause of Allah, ye cling heavily to the earth? Do ye prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter? But little is the comfort of this life, as compared with the Hereafter. Unless ye go forth, He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place.” This is a warning to those who refuse to fight, that they will be punished with Hell.
Quran (9:41) – “Go forth, light-armed and heavy-armed, and strive with your wealth and your lives in the way of Allah! That is best for you if ye but knew.” See also the verse that follows (9:42) – “If there had been immediate gain (in sight), and the journey easy, they would (all) without doubt have followed thee, but the distance was long, (and weighed) on them” This contradicts the myth that Muslims are to fight only in self-defense, since the wording implies that battle will be waged a long distance from home (in another country and on Christian soil, in this case, according to the historians).
Quran (9:73) – “O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be unyielding to them; and their abode is hell, and evil is the destination.” Dehumanizing those who reject Islam, by reminding Muslims that they are merely firewood for Hell, makes it easier to justify slaughter. It also explains why today’s devout Muslims have little regard for those outside the faith.
Quran (9:88) – “But the Messenger, and those who believe with him, strive and fight with their wealth and their persons: for them are (all) good things: and it is they who will prosper.”
Quran (9:111) – “Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Quran: and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah? then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded: that is the achievement supreme.”
Quran (9:123) – “O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness.”
Quran (18:65-81) – This parable lays the theological groundwork for honor killings, in which a family member is murdered because they brought shame to the family, either through apostasy or perceived moral indiscretion. The story, which is not found in any Jewish or Christian source, tells of Moses encountering a man with “special knowledge” who does things which don’t seem to make sense on the surface, but are then justified according to later explanation. One such action is to murder a youth for no apparent reason (74). However, the wise man later explains that it was feared that the boy would “grieve” his parents by “disobedience and ingratitude.” He was killed so that Allah could provide them a ‘better’ son.
Quran (21:44) – “We gave the good things of this life to these men and their fathers until the period grew long for them; See they not that We gradually reduce the land (in their control) from its outlying borders? Is it then they who will win?”
Quran (25:52) – “Therefore listen not to the Unbelievers, but strive against them with the utmost strenuousness…” “Strive against” is Jihad – obviously not in the personal context. It’s also significant to point out that this is a Meccan verse.
Quran (33:60-62) – “If the hypocrites, and those in whose hearts is a disease, and the alarmists in the city do not cease, We verily shall urge thee on against them, then they will be your neighbors in it but a little while. Accursed, they will be seized wherever found and slain with a (fierce) slaughter.” This passage sanctions the slaughter (rendered “merciless” and “horrible murder” in other translations) against three groups: Hypocrites (Muslims who refuse to “fight in the way of Allah” (3:167) and hence don’t act as Muslims should), those with “diseased hearts” (which include Jews and Christians 5:51-52), and “alarmists” or “agitators who include those who merely speak out against Islam, according to Muhammad’s biographers. It is worth noting that the victims are to be sought out by Muslims, which is what today’s terrorists do. If this passage is meant merely to apply to the city of Medina, then it is unclear why it is included in Allah’s eternal word to Muslim generations.
Quran (47:3-4) – “Those who reject Allah follow vanities, while those who believe follow the truth from their lord. Thus does Allah set forth form men their lessons by similtudes. Therefore when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then smite the necks until when you have overcome them, then make (them) prisoners,” Those who reject Allah are to be subdued in battle. The verse goes on to say the only reason Allah doesn’t do the dirty work himself is in order to to test the faithfulness of Muslims. Those who kill pass the test. “But if it had been Allah’s Will, He could certainly have exacted retribution from them (Himself); but (He lets you fight) in order to test you, some with others. But those who are slain in the Way of Allah,- He will never let their deeds be lost.”
Quran (47:35) – “Be not weary and faint-hearted, crying for peace, when ye should be uppermost (Shakir: “have the upper hand”) for Allah is with you,” This very important verse asserts that the Religion of Peace is not to grant peace to the broader society until Islamic rule has been established.
Quran (48:17) – “There is no blame for the blind, nor is there blame for the lame, nor is there blame for the sick (that they go not forth to war). And whoso obeyeth Allah and His messenger, He will make him enter Gardens underneath which rivers flow; and whoso turneth back, him will He punish with a painful doom.” Contemporary apologists sometimes claim that Jihad means ‘spiritual struggle.’ Is so, then why are the blind, lame and sick exempted?
Quran (48:29) – “Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. And those with him are hard (ruthless) against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves” Islam is not about treating everyone equally. There are two very distinct standards that are applied based on religious status.
Quran (61:4) – “Surely Allah loves those who fight in His way” Religion of Peace, indeed! This is followed by (61:9): “He it is who has sent His Messenger (Mohammed) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islam) to make it victorious over all religions even though the infidels may resist.”
Quran (61:10-12) – “O ye who believe! Shall I lead you to a bargain that will save you from a grievous Penalty?- That ye believe in Allah and His Messenger, and that ye strive (your utmost) in the Cause of Allah, with your property and your persons: That will be best for you, if ye but knew! He will forgive you your sins, and admit you to Gardens beneath which Rivers flow, and to beautiful mansions in Gardens of Eternity.” This verse was given in battle. It uses the Arabic word, Jihad.
Quran (66:9) – “O Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites, and be stern with them. Hell will be their home, a hapless journey’s end.” The root word of “Jihad” is used again here. The context is clearly holy war, and the scope of violence is broadened to include “hypocrites” – those who call themselves Muslims but do not act as such.
From the Hadith:
Mindless copy and pasting? That’s the best you could do dummy? Haven’t you been embarrassed about this many times before?
2:190 – Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors.
2:193 – And fight them on until there is no more Tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah; but if they cease, Let there be no hostility except to those who practise oppression.
4:75 – And why should ye not fight in the cause of Allah and of those who, being weak, are ill-treated (and oppressed)?- Men, women, and children, whose cry is: “Our Lord! Rescue us from this town, whose people are oppressors; and raise for us from thee one who will protect; and raise for us from thee one who will help!”
4:76 – Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah, and those who reject Faith Fight in the cause of Evil: So fight ye against the friends of Satan: feeble indeed is the cunning of Satan.
5:33-34 – The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter; Except for those who repent before they fall into your power: in that case, know that Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
8:39 – And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah altogether and everywhere; but if they cease, verily Allah doth see all that they do.
8:61 – But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards peace, and trust in Allah: for He is One that heareth and knoweth (all things).
Now let’s see your Bible, shall we?
Revelation 3:9 New International Version (NIV)
9 I will make those who are of the synagogue of Satan, who claim to be Jews though they are not, but are liars—I will make them come and fall down at your feet and acknowledge that I have loved you.
Luke 19:27 New International Version (NIV)
27 But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and kill them in front of me.’”
1 Samuel 15:3
Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy[a] all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’”
The fact that the person’s shoddy “scholarship” he copied from contains about 1/3rd of it from Tabari and Ibn Ishaq is enough to laugh about. Furthermore, notice these people never go ONE at a time they attempt to “pad and barrage” to look more impressive than their arguments actually are.
@ Watson
So if I refute ALL this of this poor paste job will you become a Muslim?
PS
The far-right would still be following the OT that Jesus(as) approved according to your text.
I doubt Iggy will do anything other than run away, only to resurface like a troll under the bridge on a different post to repeat the same mantra. Like I said, he needs a new hobby.
“2:193 – And fight them on until there is no more Tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah; but if they cease, Let there be no hostility except to those who practise oppression.”
A secular government is a form of oppression for muslims. So this verse just says keep on attacking, killing, enslaving and plundering until Sharia is established.
If they cease can be taken to mean if they cease to enact their laws and submit to Islam. It does not necessarily meant that they have to be at war with Muslims in a military sense.
Seriously how does it feel being ignorant? I have to ask because it just shocks me sometimes. The simplest way to defeat your “commentary” bordering a ramble is context, ahem:
2:190. Fight in God’s Cause, THOSE WHO ARE FIGHTING YOU. But do not GO TOO FAR, because God has no love for those who go too far.
2:191. Kill them wherever you find them and DRIVE THEM OUT FROM WHERE THEY DROVE YOU OUT FROM. To create turmoil is worse than killing. Do not fight them at Masjid Al Haram unless they attack you there. ˹But˺ if they attack you there you may kill them. That is the reward of those who persist in being disbelievers.
2:192. But if they STOP, God is Extremely Forgiving and Always Merciful.
2:193. Keep fighting them until there’s no more turmoil and religion belongs only to God. But if they stop then there’s to be no animosity except towards evildoers.
2:194. A sacred month for a sacred month, violation of sanctity calls for EQUAL RETALIATION. So if anyone TRANSGRESSES against you, advance against them in the same way that they CROSSED THE LINE against you, but remain mindful of God and His punishment, and know that He is with those who are mindful of Him.
So literally the next verse explains who is meant in 2:193. Also as you can see the stop or cease is also clear as being in regards to hostility as this is what the entire passage is about.
Now you WOULD be right if one tried to force something onto Muslims (like the Soviets did to the Afghanis) but in general day to day life, nah.
Finally: “War is deceit” is a correct description of strategy. Am I supposed to tell an enemy what my plans are or how strong I am lol? ALL nations practice deception in warfare that’s just the nature of the field. This also shows his amazing generalship was because what did Sun Tzu say again? Oh, I know chapter 1 of the Art of War:
Mujahid narrated: “Abdullah bin Amr had a sheep slaughtered for his family, so when he came he said: ‘Have you given some to our neighbor, the Jew? Have you given some to our neighbor, the Jew? I heard the Messenger of Allah saying: ‘Jibril continued to advise me about (treating) the neighbors so (kindly and politely), that I thought he would order me (from Allah) to make them heirs.” Tirmidhi
Narrated Anas: The Prophet (ﷺ) was asked about the great sins He said, “They are:– (1 ) To join others in worship with Allah, (2) To be undutiful to one’s parents. (3) To kill a person (which Allah has forbidden to kill) (i.e. to commit the crime of murdering). (4) And to give a false witness.” Bukhari
During some of the Ghazawat of Allah’s Messenger (ﷺ) a woman was found killed, so Allah’s Messenger (ﷺ) forbade the killing of women and children. Bukhari
And they call Islam “violent”! Bunch of pathetic hypocrites. No wonder Christianity is dying in the west. People are fed up with their hypocrisy and fake piety.
“2:193. Keep fighting them until there’s no more turmoil and religion belongs only to God.”
Stewpot found one verse that calls for restraint and ignores the rest. Typical denial. You are still outnumbered stewpot. There are lots more verses against you than for you.
Not that I think Allah is bothered either way as long as Islam benefits.
Even then he shoots himself in the foot because the Quran makes clear that Mohammed would not stop killing until the Meccans were forced to give up their religion and the Kaaba.
It if was only about retaliation against the Meccans there would have been no need to carry on and do the same to the Jews and Christians to put their religions under the control of Islam.
“He it is who has sent His Messenger (Mohammed) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islam) to make it victorious over all religions even though the infidels may resist.”
Not “denial” I have simply read the text and you haven’t. You claimed the verse applies to EVERYONE and that turmoil was unclear quoting you:
“A secular government is a form of oppression for muslims. So this verse just says keep on attacking, killing, enslaving and plundering until Sharia is established.
If they cease can be taken to mean if they cease to enact their laws and submit to Islam. It does not necessarily meant that they have to be at war with Muslims in a military sense.”
You are now switching your position (i.e moving the goalpost) to the Meccans so do you admit the above is incorrect before we move onto your next ramble? As I said this is what the norm is, you try to blast a bunch of quotes out of context to try and pad your argument but when you go point for point like I did the individual pieces start to crumble.
So until you find the right context all commands are negated. Where does Allah say you can do that? All commands are binding even if they are contradictory. This is a muddled up religion it appears to me.
If restraint is an option then offensive jihad is also an option. In terms of the number of verses unconditional violent offensive jihad is weighted in its favour over against defensive violent jihad. Allah knows that many muslims will choose this option because they want to become martyrs and secure their place in paradise.
If offensive violent jihad is an option then we have a religion that simply commands its adherents to kill human beings, and thereby give pleasure to Allah, based solely on their religious worldview. All for the sake of gaining political dominance in the form of religious dominance.
Tell me where you take the right to suspend the commands to fight violent jihad against the kuffar as a perpetual command until you find the right context. Where is this right given to you in the islamic scriptures?
It seems that way to you because as we have established before you’re stupid. Before beginning it’s the common sense you use an entire text and not just strip sing verses from their context otherwise I can say, Christianity commands perpetual war and is contradictory with “turn the other cheek” because Jesus (as) allegedly said:
But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them–bring them here and kill them in front of me.'” (Luke 19:27)
You would quickly (and correctly) point to the surrounding context. When one wants to understand an author’s message you look at the entirety of the work.
As for your question of what right does one have to find the right context, it is a known principle in Islam that knowledge proceeds action
Imaam al-Bukhaaree (d.256H) رحمه الله said in his Saheeh:
“Chapter: Knowledge comes before statement and action.”
Then al-Haafidh Ibn Hajar (d.852H) رحمه الله commented upon this statement saying:
“So knowledge is a condition for the correctness of the statement and action. So these two (statement and action) are not held in high esteem, except due to it (knowledge), so it must take precedence over them; since the correctness of the intention is a prerequisite for the correctness of action.” [Fathul-Baaree (1/160)]
“But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them–bring them here and kill them in front of me.’” (Luke 19:27)”
Thats a parable about the end of the world and the second coming of Christ so you won’t have any luck with that stewpot.
“And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear.”
Lol, except that we know that the second coming was supposed to happen in the first century. Your Bible is clear on this. So your mangod was looking forward to a bloodbath in a few decades at most.
I do have a good argument because God didn’t just say one thing. There is a magical thing called context which explains the verse in question. Like how you are trying to bring the surrounding verses for Luke the same thing is being applied to the Quran. If I was doing what you’re doing:
“Oh so you don’t want to obey Jesus’s(as) command? iIt’s right there in black and white what do you need to see the context for blah,blah, blah”
Its a stupid mode of argument and a childish reading of a text.
Stewpot: “So knowledge is a condition for the correctness of the statement and action. So these two (statement and action) are not held in high esteem, except due to it (knowledge), so it must take precedence over them; since the correctness of the intention is a prerequisite for the correctness of action.” [Fathul-Baaree (1/160)]”
Does that knowledge allow you to pick one commandment of the Koran at the expense of the others? So that If you pick one law to follow, because you apply your context, for which you have no authority from the Koran itself, by the way, then the other laws become null and void?
Stewpot is bigger than the God Allah that he worships because he can make his laws null and void, imagine that. Apparently many muslims in the west do this because they find the killing commands uncomfortable to live with.
Does Tawheed apply to Sharia itself? If so why do Muslims need the concept of abrogation to make sense of their contradictory laws?
Lol, Iggy the moron, who is embarrassed about angels getting it on with humans in his Bible, thinks he has the authority to tell Muslims how they should read the Quran. How is it that Iggy always seems to know best? When the church fathers disagree with Iggy on the way to interpret the Bible that doesn’t fit Iggy’s opinion? Oh well, the church fathers must be wrong and Iggy must be right! When Muslims know what the Quran says about fighting that contradicts Iggy’s moronic interpretation? Oh well, the Muslims must be wrong and Iggy must be right!
Oh Iggy, don’t make me laugh! Save that for the circus! 😆
“Oh well, the church fathers must be wrong and Iggy must be right! When Muslims know what the Quran says about fighting that contradicts Iggy’s moronic interpretation? ”
iggy is like jesus, use AMBIGUOUS texts in the torah to win an argument.
“Does that knowledge allow you to pick one commandment of the Koran at the expense of the others? So that If you pick one law to follow, because you apply your context, for which you have no authority from the Koran itself, by the way, then the other laws become null and void?”
kind of like jesus using the emergency situation of david to justify his pals breaking of sabbath, right?
where does torah say that the messiah will be lord of sabbath ?
where does hebrew bible say david eat the bread and walked into the temple?
why did jesus’ desciples not prepare themselves one day before sabbath?
quote:
How important is the Sabbath from the standpoint of a Christian? How does it compare to the “principle” that posits that there is no remission for sin without the shedding of blood? Now search the Jewish Bible, how many times do the prophets exhort our people to guard the Sabbath? Dozens of times.
It’s such a hard decision sometimes judging between you and Agnostic aka Helge Beck as the dumbest commentator on the blog. Just so we’re clear you’re advocating for ignoring context to statements. Using your same logic go fulfill Jesus’s statement of killing anyone who doesn’t want him to be their king.
It has nothing to do with being uncomfortable, quite frankly I laugh at Rome, Persia, Quraish etc being destroyed (or any nation that goes against God for that matter) and teach it to my children with a smile. The verses you’re quoting simply aren’t saying that which is why when you tried going one on one with 2:193 you got creamed. Notice I NEVER stated fighting is not in the Quran (war is a part of the human experience and like all things is a form of worship if done correctly) I am arguing against your poor reading comprehension of the text.
” I am arguing against your poor reading comprehension of the text.”
My reading comprehension leads to the conclusion that the vast majority of the texts I quoted constitute a clear command to the muslim community to fight violently with those who do not pay jizya. You have found one command which allows muslims not to fight if the other side is not fighting. Your choice to follow this one command is just that, your personal choice and nothing else. You cannot impose your personal choice on anyone else and it could also be seen as a hypocritical choice at that in view of the clear commands to the opposite which are numerous.
You’re really funny. It’s not that I “found one” I am forcing you to go one at a time. This is a common deceptive tactic for these sites to shotgun blast in order to pad numbers and then declare victory. By simply doing this magical thing called “reading” I was able to knock out 3 references on the list which is why you’re mad. Anyways seeing as you have conceded this as a win for me I move to the next set down the list until its gone. Pretty amazing how easy it is, right? Watch I’m going to knockout a whopping 7 off the list using this magical technique anything with a 9 in front:
9:1. ˹This is the˺ cut off by God and His Messenger from the TREATIES you’ve made with those who equate others ˹with Him˺.
9:2. Hang around in the land for four months, but keep in mind that you will never escape God, and that God will disgrace and humiliate those who’ve disbelieved.
9:3. This is a PROCLAMATION from God and His Messenger, to THE PEOPLE ON THE DAY OF THE HAJJ ˹PILGRIMAGE˺. God is free from any commitment to the pagans, and so is His Messenger. If you repent now, it’s better for you. But if you decide to turn away, then be aware that you can never frustrate God’s will. So give the ones who disbelieve the ‘congratulations’ of a painful punishment.
9:4. As for THOSE WHO HAVE HONORED THE TREATY YOU MADE WITH THEM AND HAVE NOT SUPPORTED ANYONE AGAINST YOU, fulfill your agreement with them to the end of their terms because God loves those who are god fearing.
Now, do you have a treaty with prophet Muhammad(saw) because I’m sure I and all the Muslims of the world would love to see it? Furthermore, from the same chapter:
9:8. How (can there be a treaty), when whenever they’ve had any opportunity to ADVANCE AGAINST YOU or have gained the upper hand, they do not RESPECT ANY COURTESIES WITH YOU? They only try to flatter you with what their mouths utter, but their hearts are against you and most of them are corrupt.
9:9. They have sold God’s revelations for a small price, and blocked themselves and others from His path. Have no doubts about this, what they do is evil.
9:10. They would show NO COURTEST OR REGARD whenever believers were concerned, whether it was the NORMS OF BEING FAMILY OR TREATIES. THEY ARE THE ONES WHO ARE COMMITING THE AGRESSION.
9:11. If they repent, establish prayer and give charity, then they’re your brothers in faith. I will explain these verses in detail for people who are willing to learn.
And now for my coup de gras, notice your list cut off the verse before:
9:13. How can you not fight a people who’ve broken their word, tried to drive out the Messenger, and ATTACKED YOU FIRST? Do you fear them? It’s God you should fear if you’re people with true faith.
And just like that a 1/3 of your references go up in smoke. This must be SUPER embarrassing for you. Do you care to keep playing?
“If Jesus had just said take my enemies and kill them before you might have an argument but he didn’t.”
“But as for these
enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them
here and slaughter them before me.’” jesus is speaking in parable yes,
but he is portrayed as the one who created the parable and he is
speaking of the parable favorably!”
and who other than christians for the past 2500 years have been doing jesus a favour by doing in his false name most disgusting things known to humanity ? who has been going around dividing family member, causing hate and division ?
” quoted constitute a clear command to the muslim community to fight violently with those who do not pay jizya. You have found one command which allows muslims not to fight if the other side is not fighting.”
can i ask a scum bag lie you to quote the verses in context. hector avalos in the book “bad jesus” does detailed analysis of jesus’ delusionary and contradictory mind
he literally SHAFTS the argument that jesus meant hate = love less
you crosstians are the ones who follow a saviour who has multi personality disorder
“he literally SHAFTS the argument that jesus meant hate = love less”
Who cares if its a strawman argument. One man’s argument why should I care less?
Off topic for this thread but if you want to start a discussion somewhere else go ahead.
Getting back to the topic your request for context seems suspiciously subjective as if to say if you find something objective in the koran you will start whining about the context but if you don’t you keep your hate-filled mouth shut.
No hurt feelings but thanks for your concern even if it is not sincere.
The bottom line still is that you cannot revoke, with one verse of constraint, the commands to kill that are found in the Koran in the hadith which are valid until Sharia is established everywhere.
Other muslims can still keep these commands if you choose not to.
Why did your oh so peaceful and merciful prophet command the killing of singing girls and poets?
Quoted from Jihad Watch: “France: Muslim who killed 4 exchanged texts with wife, “Follow our beloved prophet Mohamed and reflect on Qur’an””
Quoted from the Washington Post: “The alleged synagogue shooter was a churchgoer who talked Christian theology, raising tough questions for evangelical pastors”
Hmm…🤔
Quote from Douche Watch: “Watson, along with a handleful of other gutter trash, joined forces together to plan out their annual Young Earth Creationist shitstain circle jerk get together.. A sort of Burning Man for Homoerotic Internet Trolls. Watson, when interviewed by Douche Watch local reporters, said “This year I will give the honorary “Fucktard” reach around to Ken, Iggy, Agnostic and of course Douche Lord Supreme, His Smelly Infernal Obese Majesty, Shamu Sham Shamoun”
“Quoted from the Washington Post: “The alleged synagogue shooter was a churchgoer who talked Christian theology, raising tough questions for evangelical pastors”
But who is obeying his God’s written laws and who isn’t?
Bukhari (52:177) – Allah’s Apostle said, “The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. “O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him.”
Bukhari (52:256) – The Prophet… was asked whether it was permissible to attack the pagan warriors at night with the probability of exposing their women and children to danger. The Prophet replied, “They (i.e. women and children) are from them (i.e. pagans).” In this command, Muhammad establishes that it is permissible to kill non-combatants in the process of killing a perceived enemy. This provides justification for the many Islamic terror bombings.
Bukhari (52:220) – Allah’s Apostle said… ‘I have been made victorious with terror’
Abu Dawud (14:2526) – The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: Three things are the roots of faith: to refrain from (killing) a person who utters, “There is no god but Allah” and not to declare him unbeliever whatever sin he commits, and not to excommunicate him from Islam for his any action; and jihad will be performed continuously since the day Allah sent me as a prophet until the day the last member of my community will fight with the Dajjal (Antichrist)
Abu Dawud (14:2527) – The Prophet said: Striving in the path of Allah (jihad) is incumbent on you along with every ruler, whether he is pious or impious
Muslim (1:33) – the Messenger of Allah said: I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah
Bukhari (8:387) – Allah’s Apostle said, “I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: ‘None has the right to be worshipped but Allah
Muslim (1:149) – “Abu Dharr reported: I said: Messenger of Allah, which of the deeds is the best? He (the Holy Prophet) replied: Belief in Allah and Jihad in His cause…”
Muslim (20:4645) – “…He (the Messenger of Allah) did that and said: There is another act which elevates the position of a man in Paradise to a grade one hundred (higher), and the elevation between one grade and the other is equal to the height of the heaven from the earth. He (Abu Sa’id) said: What is that act? He replied: Jihad in the way of Allah! Jihad in the way of Allah!”
Muslim (20:4696) – “the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: ‘One who died but did not fight in the way of Allah nor did he express any desire (or determination) for Jihid died the death of a hypocrite.'”
Muslim (19:4321-4323) – Three separate hadith in which Muhammad shrugs over the news that innocent children were killed in a raid by his men against unbelievers. His response: “They are of them (meaning the enemy).”
Tabari 7:97 The morning after the murder of Ashraf, the Prophet declared, “Kill any Jew who falls under your power.” Ashraf was a poet, killed by Muhammad’s men because he insulted Islam. Here, Muhammad widens the scope of his orders to kill. An innocent Jewish businessman was then slain by his Muslim partner, merely for being non-Muslim.
Tabari 9:69 “Killing Unbelievers is a small matter to us” The words of Muhammad, prophet of Islam.
Ibn Ishaq: 327 – “Allah said, ‘A prophet must slaughter before collecting captives. A slaughtered enemy is driven from the land. Muhammad, you craved the desires of this world, its goods and the ransom captives would bring. But Allah desires killing them to manifest the religion.’”
Ibn Ishaq: 990 – Lest anyone think that cutting off someone’s head while screaming ‘Allah Akbar!’ is a modern custom, here is an account of that very practice under Muhammad, who seems to approve.
Ibn Ishaq: 992 – “Fight everyone in the way of Allah and kill those who disbelieve in Allah.” Muhammad’s instructions to his men prior to a military raid.
The Quran:
Quran (2:191-193) – “And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution [of Muslims] is worse than slaughter [of non-believers]… but if desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah.”
There is a good case to be made that the textual context of this particular passage is defensive war, even if the historical context was not. However, there are also two worrisome pieces to this verse. The first is that the killing of others is authorized in the event of “persecution” (a qualification that is ambiguous at best). The second is that fighting may persist until “religion is for Allah.” The example set by Muhammad is not reassuring.
Quran (2:244) – “Then fight in the cause of Allah, and know that Allah Heareth and knoweth all things.”
Quran (2:216) – “Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not.” Not only does this verse establish that violence can be virtuous, but it also contradicts the myth that fighting is intended only in self-defense, since the audience was obviously not under attack at the time. From the Hadith, we know that Muhammad was actually trying to motivate his people into raiding caravans with this verse.
Quran (3:56) – “As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help.”
Quran (3:151) – “Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority”. This speaks directly of polytheists, yet it also includes Christians, since they believe in the Trinity (ie. what Muhammad incorrectly believed to be ‘joining companions to Allah’).
Quran (4:74) – “Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward.” The martyrs of Islam are unlike the early Christians, led meekly to the slaughter. These Muslims are killed in battle, as they attempt to inflict death and destruction for the cause of Allah. Here is the theological basis for today’s suicide bombers.
Quran (4:76) – “Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah…”
Quran (4:89) – “They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks.”
Quran (4:95) – “Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah with their goods and their persons. Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit (at home). Unto all (in Faith) Hath Allah promised good: But those who strive and fight Hath He distinguished above those who sit (at home) by a special reward,-” This passage criticizes “peaceful” Muslims who do not join in the violence, letting them know that they are less worthy in Allah’s eyes. It also demolishes the modern myth that “Jihad” doesn’t mean holy war in the Quran, but rather a spiritual struggle. Not only is the Arabic word used in this passage, but it is clearly not referring to anything spiritual, since the physically disabled are given exemption. (The Hadith reveals the context of the passage to be in response to a blind man’s protest that he is unable to engage in Jihad and this is reflected in other translations of the verse).
Quran (4:104) – “And be not weak hearted in pursuit of the enemy; if you suffer pain, then surely they (too) suffer pain as you suffer pain…” Is pursuing an injured and retreating enemy really an act of self-defense?
Quran (5:33) – “The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement”
Quran (8:12) – “I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them” No reasonable person would interpret this to mean a spiritual struggle.
Quran (8:15) – “O ye who believe! When ye meet those who disbelieve in battle, turn not your backs to them. (16)Whoso on that day turneth his back to them, unless maneuvering for battle or intent to join a company, he truly hath incurred wrath from Allah, and his habitation will be hell, a hapless journey’s end.”
Quran (8:39) – “And fight with them until there is no more persecution and religion should be only for Allah” From the historical context we know that the “persecution” spoken of here was simply the refusal by the Meccans to allow Muhammad to enter their city and perform the Haj. Other Muslims were able to travel there, just not as an armed group, since Muhammad declared war on Mecca prior to his eviction. The Meccans were also acting in defense of their religion, since it was Muhammad’s intention to destroy their idols and establish Islam by force (which he later did). Hence the critical part of this verse is to fight until “religion is only for Allah.” According to Ibn Ishaq (324), Muhammad justified the violence further by explaining that “Allah must have no rivals.”
Quran (8:57) – “If thou comest on them in the war, deal with them so as to strike fear in those who are behind them, that haply they may remember.”
Quran (8:59-60) – “And let not those who disbelieve suppose that they can outstrip (Allah’s Purpose). Lo! they cannot escape. Make ready for them all thou canst of (armed) force and of horses tethered, that thereby ye may dismay the enemy of Allah and your enemy.”
Quran (8:65) – “O Prophet, exhort the believers to fight…”
Quran (9:5) – “So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them.” According to this verse, the best way of staying safe from Muslim violence is to convert to Islam. Prayer (salat) and the poor tax (zakat) are among the religions Five Pillars.
Quran (9:14) – “Fight them, Allah will punish them by your hands and bring them to disgrace…”
Quran (9:20) – “Those who believe, and have left their homes and striven with their wealth and their lives in Allah’s way are of much greater worth in Allah’s sight. These are they who are triumphant.” The “striving” spoken of here is Jihad.
Quran (9:29) – “Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.” “People of the Book” refers to Christians and Jews. This was one of the final “revelations” from Allah and it set in motion the tenacious military expansion, in which Muhammad’s companions managed to conquer two-thirds of the Christian world in just the next 100 years. Islam is intended to dominate all other people and faiths.
Quran (9:30) – “And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!”
Quran (9:38-39) – “O ye who believe! what is the matter with you, that, when ye are asked to go forth in the cause of Allah, ye cling heavily to the earth? Do ye prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter? But little is the comfort of this life, as compared with the Hereafter. Unless ye go forth, He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place.” This is a warning to those who refuse to fight, that they will be punished with Hell.
Quran (9:41) – “Go forth, light-armed and heavy-armed, and strive with your wealth and your lives in the way of Allah! That is best for you if ye but knew.” See also the verse that follows (9:42) – “If there had been immediate gain (in sight), and the journey easy, they would (all) without doubt have followed thee, but the distance was long, (and weighed) on them” This contradicts the myth that Muslims are to fight only in self-defense, since the wording implies that battle will be waged a long distance from home (in another country and on Christian soil, in this case, according to the historians).
Quran (9:73) – “O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be unyielding to them; and their abode is hell, and evil is the destination.” Dehumanizing those who reject Islam, by reminding Muslims that they are merely firewood for Hell, makes it easier to justify slaughter. It also explains why today’s devout Muslims have little regard for those outside the faith.
Quran (9:88) – “But the Messenger, and those who believe with him, strive and fight with their wealth and their persons: for them are (all) good things: and it is they who will prosper.”
Quran (9:111) – “Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Quran: and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah? then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded: that is the achievement supreme.”
Quran (9:123) – “O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness.”
Quran (18:65-81) – This parable lays the theological groundwork for honor killings, in which a family member is murdered because they brought shame to the family, either through apostasy or perceived moral indiscretion. The story, which is not found in any Jewish or Christian source, tells of Moses encountering a man with “special knowledge” who does things which don’t seem to make sense on the surface, but are then justified according to later explanation. One such action is to murder a youth for no apparent reason (74). However, the wise man later explains that it was feared that the boy would “grieve” his parents by “disobedience and ingratitude.” He was killed so that Allah could provide them a ‘better’ son.
Quran (21:44) – “We gave the good things of this life to these men and their fathers until the period grew long for them; See they not that We gradually reduce the land (in their control) from its outlying borders? Is it then they who will win?”
Quran (25:52) – “Therefore listen not to the Unbelievers, but strive against them with the utmost strenuousness…” “Strive against” is Jihad – obviously not in the personal context. It’s also significant to point out that this is a Meccan verse.
Quran (33:60-62) – “If the hypocrites, and those in whose hearts is a disease, and the alarmists in the city do not cease, We verily shall urge thee on against them, then they will be your neighbors in it but a little while. Accursed, they will be seized wherever found and slain with a (fierce) slaughter.” This passage sanctions the slaughter (rendered “merciless” and “horrible murder” in other translations) against three groups: Hypocrites (Muslims who refuse to “fight in the way of Allah” (3:167) and hence don’t act as Muslims should), those with “diseased hearts” (which include Jews and Christians 5:51-52), and “alarmists” or “agitators who include those who merely speak out against Islam, according to Muhammad’s biographers. It is worth noting that the victims are to be sought out by Muslims, which is what today’s terrorists do. If this passage is meant merely to apply to the city of Medina, then it is unclear why it is included in Allah’s eternal word to Muslim generations.
Quran (47:3-4) – “Those who reject Allah follow vanities, while those who believe follow the truth from their lord. Thus does Allah set forth form men their lessons by similtudes. Therefore when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then smite the necks until when you have overcome them, then make (them) prisoners,” Those who reject Allah are to be subdued in battle. The verse goes on to say the only reason Allah doesn’t do the dirty work himself is in order to to test the faithfulness of Muslims. Those who kill pass the test. “But if it had been Allah’s Will, He could certainly have exacted retribution from them (Himself); but (He lets you fight) in order to test you, some with others. But those who are slain in the Way of Allah,- He will never let their deeds be lost.”
Quran (47:35) – “Be not weary and faint-hearted, crying for peace, when ye should be uppermost (Shakir: “have the upper hand”) for Allah is with you,” This very important verse asserts that the Religion of Peace is not to grant peace to the broader society until Islamic rule has been established.
Quran (48:17) – “There is no blame for the blind, nor is there blame for the lame, nor is there blame for the sick (that they go not forth to war). And whoso obeyeth Allah and His messenger, He will make him enter Gardens underneath which rivers flow; and whoso turneth back, him will He punish with a painful doom.” Contemporary apologists sometimes claim that Jihad means ‘spiritual struggle.’ Is so, then why are the blind, lame and sick exempted?
Quran (48:29) – “Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. And those with him are hard (ruthless) against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves” Islam is not about treating everyone equally. There are two very distinct standards that are applied based on religious status.
Quran (61:4) – “Surely Allah loves those who fight in His way” Religion of Peace, indeed! This is followed by (61:9): “He it is who has sent His Messenger (Mohammed) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islam) to make it victorious over all religions even though the infidels may resist.”
Quran (61:10-12) – “O ye who believe! Shall I lead you to a bargain that will save you from a grievous Penalty?- That ye believe in Allah and His Messenger, and that ye strive (your utmost) in the Cause of Allah, with your property and your persons: That will be best for you, if ye but knew! He will forgive you your sins, and admit you to Gardens beneath which Rivers flow, and to beautiful mansions in Gardens of Eternity.” This verse was given in battle. It uses the Arabic word, Jihad.
Quran (66:9) – “O Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites, and be stern with them. Hell will be their home, a hapless journey’s end.” The root word of “Jihad” is used again here. The context is clearly holy war, and the scope of violence is broadened to include “hypocrites” – those who call themselves Muslims but do not act as such.
From the Hadith:
Mindless copy and pasting? That’s the best you could do dummy? Haven’t you been embarrassed about this many times before?
2:190 – Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors.
2:193 – And fight them on until there is no more Tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah; but if they cease, Let there be no hostility except to those who practise oppression.
4:75 – And why should ye not fight in the cause of Allah and of those who, being weak, are ill-treated (and oppressed)?- Men, women, and children, whose cry is: “Our Lord! Rescue us from this town, whose people are oppressors; and raise for us from thee one who will protect; and raise for us from thee one who will help!”
4:76 – Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah, and those who reject Faith Fight in the cause of Evil: So fight ye against the friends of Satan: feeble indeed is the cunning of Satan.
5:33-34 – The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter; Except for those who repent before they fall into your power: in that case, know that Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
8:39 – And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah altogether and everywhere; but if they cease, verily Allah doth see all that they do.
8:61 – But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards peace, and trust in Allah: for He is One that heareth and knoweth (all things).
Now let’s see your Bible, shall we?
Revelation 3:9 New International Version (NIV)
9 I will make those who are of the synagogue of Satan, who claim to be Jews though they are not, but are liars—I will make them come and fall down at your feet and acknowledge that I have loved you.
Luke 19:27 New International Version (NIV)
27 But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and kill them in front of me.’”
1 Samuel 15:3
Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy[a] all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’”
How lovely!
@ QB
The fact that the person’s shoddy “scholarship” he copied from contains about 1/3rd of it from Tabari and Ibn Ishaq is enough to laugh about. Furthermore, notice these people never go ONE at a time they attempt to “pad and barrage” to look more impressive than their arguments actually are.
@ Watson
So if I refute ALL this of this poor paste job will you become a Muslim?
PS
The far-right would still be following the OT that Jesus(as) approved according to your text.
I doubt Iggy will do anything other than run away, only to resurface like a troll under the bridge on a different post to repeat the same mantra. Like I said, he needs a new hobby.
“2:193 – And fight them on until there is no more Tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah; but if they cease, Let there be no hostility except to those who practise oppression.”
A secular government is a form of oppression for muslims. So this verse just says keep on attacking, killing, enslaving and plundering until Sharia is established.
If they cease can be taken to mean if they cease to enact their laws and submit to Islam. It does not necessarily meant that they have to be at war with Muslims in a military sense.
War is deceit like your “prophet” said.
@ QB
He’s resurfaced again. Do you want me to do it again or would you like the honors?
Be my guest. I’m tired. Roast the troll. 🔥🔥🔥
@ Watson
Seriously how does it feel being ignorant? I have to ask because it just shocks me sometimes. The simplest way to defeat your “commentary” bordering a ramble is context, ahem:
2:190. Fight in God’s Cause, THOSE WHO ARE FIGHTING YOU. But do not GO TOO FAR, because God has no love for those who go too far.
2:191. Kill them wherever you find them and DRIVE THEM OUT FROM WHERE THEY DROVE YOU OUT FROM. To create turmoil is worse than killing. Do not fight them at Masjid Al Haram unless they attack you there. ˹But˺ if they attack you there you may kill them. That is the reward of those who persist in being disbelievers.
2:192. But if they STOP, God is Extremely Forgiving and Always Merciful.
2:193. Keep fighting them until there’s no more turmoil and religion belongs only to God. But if they stop then there’s to be no animosity except towards evildoers.
2:194. A sacred month for a sacred month, violation of sanctity calls for EQUAL RETALIATION. So if anyone TRANSGRESSES against you, advance against them in the same way that they CROSSED THE LINE against you, but remain mindful of God and His punishment, and know that He is with those who are mindful of Him.
So literally the next verse explains who is meant in 2:193. Also as you can see the stop or cease is also clear as being in regards to hostility as this is what the entire passage is about.
Now you WOULD be right if one tried to force something onto Muslims (like the Soviets did to the Afghanis) but in general day to day life, nah.
Finally: “War is deceit” is a correct description of strategy. Am I supposed to tell an enemy what my plans are or how strong I am lol? ALL nations practice deception in warfare that’s just the nature of the field. This also shows his amazing generalship was because what did Sun Tzu say again? Oh, I know chapter 1 of the Art of War:
“18. All warfare is based on deception.”
https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/sun-tzu/works/art-of-war/ch01.htm
Information overload for Iggy.
Fact it Ignoramus. You are an idiot who needs a new hobby, one that doesn’t require any intellect. Might I suggest stamp collecting?
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-10-11/german-synagogue-shooting-confirmed-as-far-right-terrorism/11594016
Mujahid narrated: “Abdullah bin Amr had a sheep slaughtered for his family, so when he came he said: ‘Have you given some to our neighbor, the Jew? Have you given some to our neighbor, the Jew? I heard the Messenger of Allah saying: ‘Jibril continued to advise me about (treating) the neighbors so (kindly and politely), that I thought he would order me (from Allah) to make them heirs.” Tirmidhi
Narrated Anas: The Prophet (ﷺ) was asked about the great sins He said, “They are:– (1 ) To join others in worship with Allah, (2) To be undutiful to one’s parents. (3) To kill a person (which Allah has forbidden to kill) (i.e. to commit the crime of murdering). (4) And to give a false witness.” Bukhari
Narrated Ibn `Umar:
During some of the Ghazawat of Allah’s Messenger (ﷺ) a woman was found killed, so Allah’s Messenger (ﷺ) forbade the killing of women and children. Bukhari
“Love thy neighbour….but stab the amalekite new born and unborn, approach their pregnant women and blade them saith yhwhjebus”
And they call Islam “violent”! Bunch of pathetic hypocrites. No wonder Christianity is dying in the west. People are fed up with their hypocrisy and fake piety.
“Love thy god with all thy heart…..now blade that 9 month amalekie woman!”
“2:193. Keep fighting them until there’s no more turmoil and religion belongs only to God.”
Stewpot found one verse that calls for restraint and ignores the rest. Typical denial. You are still outnumbered stewpot. There are lots more verses against you than for you.
Not that I think Allah is bothered either way as long as Islam benefits.
Even then he shoots himself in the foot because the Quran makes clear that Mohammed would not stop killing until the Meccans were forced to give up their religion and the Kaaba.
It if was only about retaliation against the Meccans there would have been no need to carry on and do the same to the Jews and Christians to put their religions under the control of Islam.
“He it is who has sent His Messenger (Mohammed) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islam) to make it victorious over all religions even though the infidels may resist.”
@ Watson
Not “denial” I have simply read the text and you haven’t. You claimed the verse applies to EVERYONE and that turmoil was unclear quoting you:
“A secular government is a form of oppression for muslims. So this verse just says keep on attacking, killing, enslaving and plundering until Sharia is established.
If they cease can be taken to mean if they cease to enact their laws and submit to Islam. It does not necessarily meant that they have to be at war with Muslims in a military sense.”
You are now switching your position (i.e moving the goalpost) to the Meccans so do you admit the above is incorrect before we move onto your next ramble? As I said this is what the norm is, you try to blast a bunch of quotes out of context to try and pad your argument but when you go point for point like I did the individual pieces start to crumble.
So until you find the right context all commands are negated. Where does Allah say you can do that? All commands are binding even if they are contradictory. This is a muddled up religion it appears to me.
If restraint is an option then offensive jihad is also an option. In terms of the number of verses unconditional violent offensive jihad is weighted in its favour over against defensive violent jihad. Allah knows that many muslims will choose this option because they want to become martyrs and secure their place in paradise.
If offensive violent jihad is an option then we have a religion that simply commands its adherents to kill human beings, and thereby give pleasure to Allah, based solely on their religious worldview. All for the sake of gaining political dominance in the form of religious dominance.
Tell me where you take the right to suspend the commands to fight violent jihad against the kuffar as a perpetual command until you find the right context. Where is this right given to you in the islamic scriptures?
@ Watson
It seems that way to you because as we have established before you’re stupid. Before beginning it’s the common sense you use an entire text and not just strip sing verses from their context otherwise I can say, Christianity commands perpetual war and is contradictory with “turn the other cheek” because Jesus (as) allegedly said:
But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them–bring them here and kill them in front of me.'” (Luke 19:27)
You would quickly (and correctly) point to the surrounding context. When one wants to understand an author’s message you look at the entirety of the work.
As for your question of what right does one have to find the right context, it is a known principle in Islam that knowledge proceeds action
Imaam al-Bukhaaree (d.256H) رحمه الله said in his Saheeh:
“Chapter: Knowledge comes before statement and action.”
Then al-Haafidh Ibn Hajar (d.852H) رحمه الله commented upon this statement saying:
“So knowledge is a condition for the correctness of the statement and action. So these two (statement and action) are not held in high esteem, except due to it (knowledge), so it must take precedence over them; since the correctness of the intention is a prerequisite for the correctness of action.” [Fathul-Baaree (1/160)]
“It seems that way to you because as we have established before you’re stupid.”
And that’s the truth!
“But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them–bring them here and kill them in front of me.’” (Luke 19:27)”
Thats a parable about the end of the world and the second coming of Christ so you won’t have any luck with that stewpot.
“And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear.”
Lol, except that we know that the second coming was supposed to happen in the first century. Your Bible is clear on this. So your mangod was looking forward to a bloodbath in a few decades at most.
The context is given in the text itself which is not the case with the killing commands of the Koran.
If Jesus had just said take my enemies and kill them before you might have an argument but he didn’t.
So you are comparing apples with oranges like a good takiya bubble blower.
Iggy doesn’t even know how to spell “taqiyya” so how can he know what it is and what is the view of Sunni Muslims on it? 😆😂
@ Watson
I do have a good argument because God didn’t just say one thing. There is a magical thing called context which explains the verse in question. Like how you are trying to bring the surrounding verses for Luke the same thing is being applied to the Quran. If I was doing what you’re doing:
“Oh so you don’t want to obey Jesus’s(as) command? iIt’s right there in black and white what do you need to see the context for blah,blah, blah”
Its a stupid mode of argument and a childish reading of a text.
Stewpot: “So knowledge is a condition for the correctness of the statement and action. So these two (statement and action) are not held in high esteem, except due to it (knowledge), so it must take precedence over them; since the correctness of the intention is a prerequisite for the correctness of action.” [Fathul-Baaree (1/160)]”
Does that knowledge allow you to pick one commandment of the Koran at the expense of the others? So that If you pick one law to follow, because you apply your context, for which you have no authority from the Koran itself, by the way, then the other laws become null and void?
Stewpot is bigger than the God Allah that he worships because he can make his laws null and void, imagine that. Apparently many muslims in the west do this because they find the killing commands uncomfortable to live with.
Does Tawheed apply to Sharia itself? If so why do Muslims need the concept of abrogation to make sense of their contradictory laws?
Lol, Iggy the moron, who is embarrassed about angels getting it on with humans in his Bible, thinks he has the authority to tell Muslims how they should read the Quran. How is it that Iggy always seems to know best? When the church fathers disagree with Iggy on the way to interpret the Bible that doesn’t fit Iggy’s opinion? Oh well, the church fathers must be wrong and Iggy must be right! When Muslims know what the Quran says about fighting that contradicts Iggy’s moronic interpretation? Oh well, the Muslims must be wrong and Iggy must be right!
Oh Iggy, don’t make me laugh! Save that for the circus! 😆
“Oh well, the church fathers must be wrong and Iggy must be right! When Muslims know what the Quran says about fighting that contradicts Iggy’s moronic interpretation? ”
iggy is like jesus, use AMBIGUOUS texts in the torah to win an argument.
“Does that knowledge allow you to pick one commandment of the Koran at the expense of the others? So that If you pick one law to follow, because you apply your context, for which you have no authority from the Koran itself, by the way, then the other laws become null and void?”
kind of like jesus using the emergency situation of david to justify his pals breaking of sabbath, right?
where does torah say that the messiah will be lord of sabbath ?
where does hebrew bible say david eat the bread and walked into the temple?
why did jesus’ desciples not prepare themselves one day before sabbath?
quote:
How important is the Sabbath from the standpoint of a Christian? How does it compare to the “principle” that posits that there is no remission for sin without the shedding of blood? Now search the Jewish Bible, how many times do the prophets exhort our people to guard the Sabbath? Dozens of times.
@ Watson
It’s such a hard decision sometimes judging between you and Agnostic aka Helge Beck as the dumbest commentator on the blog. Just so we’re clear you’re advocating for ignoring context to statements. Using your same logic go fulfill Jesus’s statement of killing anyone who doesn’t want him to be their king.
It has nothing to do with being uncomfortable, quite frankly I laugh at Rome, Persia, Quraish etc being destroyed (or any nation that goes against God for that matter) and teach it to my children with a smile. The verses you’re quoting simply aren’t saying that which is why when you tried going one on one with 2:193 you got creamed. Notice I NEVER stated fighting is not in the Quran (war is a part of the human experience and like all things is a form of worship if done correctly) I am arguing against your poor reading comprehension of the text.
” I am arguing against your poor reading comprehension of the text.”
My reading comprehension leads to the conclusion that the vast majority of the texts I quoted constitute a clear command to the muslim community to fight violently with those who do not pay jizya. You have found one command which allows muslims not to fight if the other side is not fighting. Your choice to follow this one command is just that, your personal choice and nothing else. You cannot impose your personal choice on anyone else and it could also be seen as a hypocritical choice at that in view of the clear commands to the opposite which are numerous.
@ Watson
You’re really funny. It’s not that I “found one” I am forcing you to go one at a time. This is a common deceptive tactic for these sites to shotgun blast in order to pad numbers and then declare victory. By simply doing this magical thing called “reading” I was able to knock out 3 references on the list which is why you’re mad. Anyways seeing as you have conceded this as a win for me I move to the next set down the list until its gone. Pretty amazing how easy it is, right? Watch I’m going to knockout a whopping 7 off the list using this magical technique anything with a 9 in front:
9:1. ˹This is the˺ cut off by God and His Messenger from the TREATIES you’ve made with those who equate others ˹with Him˺.
9:2. Hang around in the land for four months, but keep in mind that you will never escape God, and that God will disgrace and humiliate those who’ve disbelieved.
9:3. This is a PROCLAMATION from God and His Messenger, to THE PEOPLE ON THE DAY OF THE HAJJ ˹PILGRIMAGE˺. God is free from any commitment to the pagans, and so is His Messenger. If you repent now, it’s better for you. But if you decide to turn away, then be aware that you can never frustrate God’s will. So give the ones who disbelieve the ‘congratulations’ of a painful punishment.
9:4. As for THOSE WHO HAVE HONORED THE TREATY YOU MADE WITH THEM AND HAVE NOT SUPPORTED ANYONE AGAINST YOU, fulfill your agreement with them to the end of their terms because God loves those who are god fearing.
Now, do you have a treaty with prophet Muhammad(saw) because I’m sure I and all the Muslims of the world would love to see it? Furthermore, from the same chapter:
9:8. How (can there be a treaty), when whenever they’ve had any opportunity to ADVANCE AGAINST YOU or have gained the upper hand, they do not RESPECT ANY COURTESIES WITH YOU? They only try to flatter you with what their mouths utter, but their hearts are against you and most of them are corrupt.
9:9. They have sold God’s revelations for a small price, and blocked themselves and others from His path. Have no doubts about this, what they do is evil.
9:10. They would show NO COURTEST OR REGARD whenever believers were concerned, whether it was the NORMS OF BEING FAMILY OR TREATIES. THEY ARE THE ONES WHO ARE COMMITING THE AGRESSION.
9:11. If they repent, establish prayer and give charity, then they’re your brothers in faith. I will explain these verses in detail for people who are willing to learn.
And now for my coup de gras, notice your list cut off the verse before:
9:13. How can you not fight a people who’ve broken their word, tried to drive out the Messenger, and ATTACKED YOU FIRST? Do you fear them? It’s God you should fear if you’re people with true faith.
And just like that a 1/3 of your references go up in smoke. This must be SUPER embarrassing for you. Do you care to keep playing?
“If Jesus had just said take my enemies and kill them before you might have an argument but he didn’t.”
“But as for these
enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them
here and slaughter them before me.’” jesus is speaking in parable yes,
but he is portrayed as the one who created the parable and he is
speaking of the parable favorably!”
and who other than christians for the past 2500 years have been doing jesus a favour by doing in his false name most disgusting things known to humanity ? who has been going around dividing family member, causing hate and division ?
” quoted constitute a clear command to the muslim community to fight violently with those who do not pay jizya. You have found one command which allows muslims not to fight if the other side is not fighting.”
can i ask a scum bag lie you to quote the verses in context. hector avalos in the book “bad jesus” does detailed analysis of jesus’ delusionary and contradictory mind
he literally SHAFTS the argument that jesus meant hate = love less
you crosstians are the ones who follow a saviour who has multi personality disorder
“he literally SHAFTS the argument that jesus meant hate = love less”
Who cares if its a strawman argument. One man’s argument why should I care less?
Off topic for this thread but if you want to start a discussion somewhere else go ahead.
Getting back to the topic your request for context seems suspiciously subjective as if to say if you find something objective in the koran you will start whining about the context but if you don’t you keep your hate-filled mouth shut.
@ Watson
“keep your hate-filled mouth shut.”
Ohhh are your feelings hurt by having to go through the crap we have to with you all the time? 😭😭😭
No hurt feelings but thanks for your concern even if it is not sincere.
The bottom line still is that you cannot revoke, with one verse of constraint, the commands to kill that are found in the Koran in the hadith which are valid until Sharia is established everywhere.
Other muslims can still keep these commands if you choose not to.
Why did your oh so peaceful and merciful prophet command the killing of singing girls and poets?