I saw the video…I love Shaikh Hamza but he is wrong.
I assume there was so much resentment, that they pulled the video.
The problem is the hadith(s) that originated during the Umayyad and Abbasid empires…these dictators encouraged and propagated such hadiths…
I cannot say 100% if these hadiths are fabricated but they sound dubious to me.
And they certainly are in contradiction with the Qur’an.
If the American colonialists did not rebel against the British Empire which was “taxing them without representation” then there would be no USA.
Does Shaikh Hamza think the formation of the USA was a humiliation to the colonialists?
Shaikh Hamza is a wonderful person…may Allah bless him and have us continue to learn from him. But he needs to interpret the hadith through the Qur’an and not interpret the Qur’an through the hadith.
Allah’s word has to be supreme over man’s word and especially over dubious ahad hadiths (non mutawattir hadiths).
But we need to return fully to the Qur’an and the Qur’an tells us to not let go of our power of reason.
Yes, it is stupid to rebel when the tyrant is far more powerful but the Syrian people did not do it suddenly but saw the opportunity after the Arab Spring led to some success in Tunisia and Egypt.
Maybe the protesters were wrong and unfortunately some extremist Salafis highjacked a part of the movement.
But the hadith that Shaikh Hamza mentions is in contradiction with Allah’s teachings in the Qur’an.
Is it not time for Muslims to return the Qur’an to the front and center?
1. Translation
Sure. It’s still a WIP but if you have an email I can send it to you through Google Docs. This is why I’m trying to explain without background context you can apply MANY verses incorrectly. The entire intent of my translation was to drop as much interpretation as possible (so that other works could plug it in) and make it for a non-Muslim who knows nothing about Islam and simply picks up the Quran to read out of curiosity to follow along and I STILL had to rely on the Seerah and ahadith. Otherwise, you get gross mistranslations like:
“Let not the believers take the unbelievers for friends rather than believers…” (3:28)
When this is CLEARLY referring to from the context of its revelation political allies. Which is what the chief of the hypocrites was doing and when he was saying “they are my awliya” which is being played off of in the verse. While I agree you won’t get “misguided” like some people claim, the application is imo more important than the law itself and ahadith help clarify the context. What you’re talking about of “ahadith completly overturn laws in the Quran” etc is simply not true and the ONLY case I can think of this happening (and imo I think it can be reconciled if it was played with) is stoning for adultery. There are many things that if we went grammar for grammar would be EXTREMELY harsh. Off the top of my head hijab, when to do ghusl, and “striking” the wife.
2. Reason
Within limits. To begin the reason is referring to the existence of Allah and that Islam is true. For example:
13:3. It’s He who expanded the land placing stable mountains and rivers on it, as well as made pairs for every kind of fruit. He draws the night’s veil over the day and there are signs in this for people who ponder.
13:4. There are neighboring trees, vineyards, cornfields and palms growing from a single stem or many branches in the land ˹that are˺ all watered with the same water, yet I make some of them taste better than others. There are many signs in that for people who apply their intellect…
67:1. Blessed is He Whose Hand the Kingdom is in and He will forever have control of all things.
67:2. He is the One who created death and life, so that He can test who’s better in deeds. He is the Almighty and Constantly Forgiving,
67:3. who created seven skies layered on top of each other. You won’t see any inconsistency in the Most Merciful’s creation, so turn your sight and ponder, do you see any flaws?
67:4. Then look again and again, your perspective will change as it comes back to you humble and tired.
There are times where Allah reveals things that don’t apply to the intellect such as ordering bani Israel to slaughter a cow, hitting the sea with a staff, killing your only son, etc. I am saying people inappropriately apply the using your brain ayah.
3. “Salafi brainwashing against reason”
I never argued against science and technology nor have any scholars of the past. I am saying it is inappropriate to reject something Allah or His Messenger have said because you can’t “understand” it. Big difference between the two statements.
I never ever said to reject anything Allah said or His messenger.
It is illogical to reject anything that that the One who knows all.
It is inappropriate to say His messenger since the function of a messenger is to give a message and that is same as the Qur’an.
If you want to say hadith, then the argument is NOT to reject what the Prophet said but rather the argument is
1. Did God or the Prophet want us to raise his scatterings sayings virtually to the same level as God’s word?
2. What is the evidence that the sayings attributed to him are really from him?
3. Do we have ***adequate*** context for any saying even if it is from the Prophet?
4. Would the Prophet say exactly that same thing in our context?
5. How would we know if the Prophet would say the exact thing in our context?
6. Does Allah indicate that we are to exercise our reason to carry out being His khalifa on earth?
7. Or does Allah indicate in the Qur’an that we are to be automatons and use a massive secondary source of information to be compiled centuries later without the Prophet formally commissioning it and through chains of people of whom we have scant biographical information?
It is stunning that you think my argument is to not follow what God or what the Prophet says….
We are to only say we hear and obey to God….but from reading the Qur’an I see some good statements about the Torah and Injeel but zero no explicit statements about any in the future compilation…regarding obeying the messenger…you cannot prove that is apart from the message–the Qur;an…regarding the Prophet’s own sayings…of course the people who the Prophet are talking to should listen to him…it would be chaotic if they did not …Islam would not survive if they did not….as for now….it would be wonderful if we have audio or video of the Prophet saying things but we don’t…Allah could have told the Prophet to commission his companions or especially his political successors to compile his sayings….but Allah did not say that in any of the 6,200 verses.
Are we to dismiss the efforts to sift true hadith from false hadith…no, we should try to benefit from it as much as possible but to raise it virtually to the level of the Qur’an is the greatest bidah in the history of Islam and we are suffering from this bidah in countless ways leading to so much strife and injustice and lack of commitment to Islam and in difficulty in dawah because of it and to even many people leaving Islam because of it.
It could have worked to some effect in the past when people were mostly illiterate, are sheep-like and less critical thinkers but for many reasons, this bidah will continue to do enormous damage every day every place.
to the Prophet, we are to obey him but my conscience informed by my reasoning is that he did not want us to make his scattered sayings compiled through a process where there were more fabricated sayings than real sayings.
If you don’t know what the precisely arguments are (the 7 above, not your imagined arguments), you are wasting other people’s time reading your posts.
I’ll simplify this where is the Messenger’s(saw) commands to be obeyed?
ALL these questions can be answered but YOU simply refuse to go study them from qualified individuals and arrogantly presume you are the first person in 1,000 years to care about preserving the religion.
And another thing because you keep bringing this up and ignoring, where did Allah command His isolated verses to be compiled between two covers? See how somebody can keep playing this game? This isn’t bidah because there is a precedent for it from the Prophet’s(saw) time. Just saying what you said shows your ignorance about B.A.S.I.C.S in hadith, the “Sayings” are not isolated. You can find the entire thing late codifiers such as Bukhari took the whole thing and chopped the relevant part off and stuck it in a relevant chapter. This is another issue when people speak without knowledge, Bukhr for example when writing this book it was not meant to be read like “Oh I’m going to kick back and read some Bukhari” like people like to do. Bukhari was creating a quick reference encyclopedia for (and this is the important part) SCHOLARS, not you. This entire work is in reality a refutation of Imam Abu Hanifa.
Let’s again look at what you are claiming hs been forged:
Yeah, it wasn’t amateur hour, there is a REASON no scholar throughout Islamic history has rejected ahadith.YOUR sect was created due to having an inferiority complex from European colonialism and a guy who claimed to be a prophet. And its funny with the “oh it’s so hard, people are leaving blah, blah, blah” (which is not true btw see my above statement about repeating what you hear)
Then why did I become a Muslim genius? You see unlike you I actually have life experience and understand the pragmaticism of the religion (for example listening to the Seerah yesterday and some people were “bothered” about the assassination of Ka’b ibn Ashraf. These people obviously live sheltered lives in the suburbs and have no experience with war because the plan was in reality brilliant) I keep telling you, YOU Ihsan simply have iman issues that you need to pray about and go PROPERLY study from qualified people. Life really ain’t that hard my dude.
Here since any random person can be read by you this person sums up pretty much how silly these beliefs are:
I read all those last 3 links when soon after they came out…they came some good points.
but they don’t address:
1. Did God or the Prophet want us to raise his scatterings sayings virtually to the same level as God’s word?
2. What is the evidence that the sayings attributed to him are really from him?
3. Do we have ***adequate*** context for any saying even if it is from the Prophet?
4. Would the Prophet say exactly that same thing in our context?
5. How would we know if the Prophet would say the exact thing in our context?
6. Does Allah indicate that we are to exercise our reason to carry out being His khalifa on earth?
7. Or does Allah indicate in the Qur’an that we are to be automatons and use a massive secondary source of information to be compiled centuries later without the Prophet formally commissioning it and through chains of people of whom we have scant biographical information?
1. Did God or the Prophet want us to raise his scatterings sayings virtually to the same level as God’s word?
Yes. And now I’ll ask Did God want us to take His scattered revelations referring to specific incidents and compile them into chapters and placed between two covers? Secondly, why WOULD Allah tell us to write down what the Prophet(saw) said when that is not the Quran’s purpose?
2. What is the evidence that the sayings attributed to him are really from him?
Isnad. Rijal.
3. Do we have ***adequate*** context for any saying even if it is from the Prophet?
For the most part.
4. Would the Prophet say exactly that same thing in our context?
More than likely yes. According to some scholarly opinion, everything he says is revelation while others (and I favor this), some is the Prophet’s(saw) ijtihad HOWEVER it is still binding upon us as Shariah as Allah has granted him this authority:
4:64. I didn’t send any Messenger except for him to be obeyed by God’s permission…
4:66. But no! I swear on your Lord, they have no faith until they make you, the judge in any matters that will sprout up. And find no resistance even in their souls to your decisions.
4:67. Even if I had ordered something irrational such as: “kill yourselves” or “abandon your homes” only a few would’ve done it. Even though it still would’ve been better for them and made them firmer in their faith. Even in that case, I would’ve given them from Myself personally an immense reward,
4:68. and guided them to an undeviating path.
4:69. Whoever obeys God and the Messenger, will be with those He has bestowed His favor on such as the prophets, those who were first and foremost in following the Truth, those who testified to that Truth with their lives and the righteous. What excellent friends they are!
4:70. That is in fact God’s greatest favor and it’s enough that He knows all…
This is similar to what he did with other prophets such as Musa(as).
5. How would we know if the Prophet would say the exact thing in our context?
Because his Shariah is to stand until the day of judgment. To overturn his command you have to prove he wanted it overturned.
6. Does Allah indicate that we are to exercise our reason to carry out being His khalifa on earth?
Allah hu alim I do not recall an ayah saying this but I could be wrong.
7. Or does Allah indicate in the Qur’an that we are to be automatons and use a massive secondary source of information to be compiled centuries later without the Prophet formally commissioning it and through chains of people of whom we have scant biographical information?
A. Wasn’t compiled centuries later (seriously it really makes you sound ignorant saying this). It was more advanced CODIFIED a little over A single century later. There is a BIG difference between these two statements and it makes me almost want to be finished with the conversation as this keeps being explained to you.
B. The Prophet (saw) authorized things to be written for him. If you reject this then do not ever touch a mushaf containing the whole Quran ever again as according to your personal definition this is bidah.
C. Also, using your argument the Quran itself is a secondary source (because we actually preserved it through oral tradition) Show the WHOLE Quran from pre 632 CE
D. Study rijal.
E. Actually, we are told to obey Allah and His Messenger without question (hence we hear and obey):
3:32. Tell them: “Obey God and His Messenger.” But if they turn away, then God has no love for ungrateful disbelievers.
8:20. Believers, obey God and obey His Messenger, and do not ignore him when you hear him.
24:54. Tell them: “Obey God and obey the Messenger.” If you turn away and ignore this, he’s responsible for the duty placed upon him, and you’re responsible for the duty placed upon you. If you obey him, you will be guided, but the Messenger’s duty is only to deliver the message clearly.
47:33. Believers, obey God and obey the Messenger and do not cancel out your deeds,
There are WAY more but you get the point. Again it SOOOO ironic you keep using the “Allah told us to use our reasoning when we disobey Him” argument when that is NOT the context of those ayah. How can you say the ulema are twisting the Quran when you cannot even quote it in its proper context?
Disobeying the Prophet(saw) in reality makes one no better than the Jews quite frankly. Even your realm of questioning you just asked is basically the exact same line of questioning Allah criticizes them for in Baqarah:
2:67. Remember when Moses said to his nation: “God has commanded you to sacrifice a cow.” And they said: “Do you take us as a joke?” And Moses countered: “I seek God’s protection from being among the ignorant, who have no control over themselves…”
2:68. They said: “Go and call on your Master to clarify to us what it is.” And Moses responded: “He said it’s a cow which is neither too old nor too young, but in between that, so just do what you’re being commanded…”
2:69. And they said: “Go and call on your Master to clarify to us what color she is.” And Moses responded: “He said it’s a yellow cow, bright in color and a pleasure for all that look at it…”
2:70. And they said: “Go and call on your Master to clarify to us what sort should she be, because now this whole cow situation has made us confused and all cows look the same, if God wishes for it, we’ll be guided correctly…”
2:71. Moses retorted: “He said, it’s a cow neither trained to till land nor water fields, she’s flawless without any marks or spots…” They said: “Now, you’ve come with the truth!” So they slaughtered it, and even then were still hesitant to do it,
I studies rijal….I realize that rijal is what is the foundation of isnads but the foundation of rijal is even weaker than isnads.
So you have something that is weaker trying to hold up something heavier….trouble.
Allah says that religion is clear…it’s not based on such weakness.
PRophet has multiple hadiths forbidding writing down his non Quranic statements.
What is Prophet comes to you now and says that the conjecture that this was before and later his views changed was just that…conjecture.
I am not saying it is false…you just can’t prove that Prophet changed his mind.
Then what happens….
Your favorite word….
Boom….
this whole complicated contorted convuluted hadith system obscuring the Quran with many
non Quranic doctrines (and even some anti-Quranic doctrines) comes crashing down.
I did not say there was no notebooks until centuries…I said “compiled”….the compilations into Musnads and Jamia came much after the Suhuf…get the teachings that is pushed on you…get that straight yourself.
You are interpreting obedience to Messenger your own narrow way….Messenger means one who bring the message….
There were people who were telling the Prophet that they do follow Allah….read the Qur’an….Allah says that….so when that was being revealed….
it was not necessarily saying….follow Qur’an and Bukhari…
It could have been:
1. refuting those who say they follow Allah but they were not following a message…that’s why Allah says ….do they have a book (message) (I am paraphrasing).
2. and of course if people around Prophet at his time did not follow him, Islam would not travel further but it would have been exterminated
3. It can also be saying we should follow hadith but not necessarily at same level as Qur’an since the evidence for 99.9% of hadith is not at that level…actually not even one hadith is at that level
4. No, we don’t have sufficient context….you can’t distill life into few fragments accompanying a sayings.
Yes, you are mistaken about context of khalifa….***read the context of that passage***….Allah tells angels that He knows better than them why HE is creating humans and then He says that Adam had power of naming…no, this is not memorization…this is reason…the power to define…the power to have concepts…the power of abstract thought.
So go use some abstract thought, concepts and try to get out of your deep hole if you want to transcend your delusional antiQuranic thoughts.
Well bani Israel, how can I ever stand up to all the unsourced claims you bring and present as fact? We all have opinions and some (like myself in this conversation) are more qualified than others.
Anyways you “studies” rijal but earlier in your “matn criticism” in the link you provided the man based his ENTIRE opinion in a no evidence having part of rijal which was:
“Let’s ignore Aisha’s(ra) clear statement about when she married her husband because she was old and forgot”
That’s part of rijal Ihsan. If you reject this then throw out “matn criticism”.
“Allah says that religion is clear…it’s not based on such weakness.”
Oh God, I love the irony in how you abuse the Quran and then claim scholars do lol. Simple question here how did the Quran reach us today Ihsan? (aka the bane of every Hadith Rejector) Oh right through the hands of the same people who believed in ahadith. The Quran (and allow me to emphasis) is A GIANT HADITH it has isnad, uses rijal etc.
Moving on its not “conjecture” its reconciling and common sense. If:
1. The Prophet(saw) authorized people to write his statements (AND these statements were during the conquest of Mecca which is late Seerah)
2. He (saw) even says EXPLICIT statements just for dealing with dumb@$$ kuffar who will come 1,000 years later.
3. We KNOW for a fact SAHABA (aka the guys who were there) compiled hadith books and nobody rebuked them.
(As a side tangent bani Israel, “compile” means “to collect” as it’s scattered (which makes sense seeing as they were illiterate at the time). For example, the Quran was not “compiled” during the Prophet’s(saw) time. After he died what Abu Bakr(ra) did was “compilation”. What Uthman(ra) did was “codification” during his time. This is the exact same process happening with ahadith but the Qur’an is OBVIOUSLY a higher priority which is why you see the process REALLY start kicking up in Ali’s(ra) time. When you have the “suhuf” (aka notebooks to you) that’s its “compilation” genius. )
Moving on, there are no “non-Quranic doctrines” you have been proven to know little about the Quran and even less about hadith. Again most ahadith stand on their own and do not affect the Quran in any way,shape or form.
As for your “Tafseer”
1. refuting those who say they follow Allah but they were not following a message…that’s why Allah says ….do they have a book (message) (I am paraphrasing).
There is absolutely NOTHING in the context of the passage to support this. Again the irony in you just abusing the Quran.
2. and of course if people around Prophet at his time did not follow him, Islam would not travel further but it would have been exterminated
I assume you are saying people didn’t follow the Prophet(saw) Islam would not expand. Okay? Allah still says to obey His Messenger. To reject a command of his is kufr because you are now disobeying Allah.
3. It can also be saying we should follow hadith but not necessarily at same level as Qur’an since the evidence for 99.9% of hadith is not at that level…actually not even one hadith is at that level
Says your not learned opinion. I’ll just leave this here:
4. No, we don’t have sufficient context….you can’t distill life into few fragments accompanying a sayings.
Again says your not learned opinion who didn’t know a hadith is chopped up in Bukhari.
As for your final bit of “Tafseer” about reasoning and the khalifah let’s read it together, shall we? (Emphasis mine)
2:30. When your Lord told the angels: “I am going to appoint a khalifah on the earth.” They asked: “You’re going to appoint ones who will spread disorder in the land and shed blood, while we declare Your perfection and glorify You?” And He told them: “I know what you don’t know…”
2:31. HE taught Adam the names, all of them…
That means ALLAH taught Adam(as) the names. Adam didn’t start making up things (unfortunately many of his children didn’t inherit this) So again your bid to twist the Quran alhamdulillah has failed. Furthermore, Allah tells Dawood(as):
38:26. “David I have placed you as a khalifah on the Earth, judge between people WITH TRUTH. DO NOT FOLLOW YOUR WHIMS AND DESIRES, BECAUSE THEY WILL MISLEAD YOU FROM GOD’S PATH…”
As a final note, I am VERY abstract in thought I just don’t side with kufr and take harsh stances against deviants trying to change the religion just so that’s clear.
“As a final note, I am VERY abstract in thought I just don’t side with kufr and take harsh stances against deviants trying to change the religion just so that’s clear.”
LOL! Ironic that this is coming from the deviant himself.
Ihsan, don’t waste your time with this salafi/wahhabi deviant. He is sexually frustrated and that’s why he has anger and rage issues. He had a field trip recently to Iraq that we’re waiting to hear all about.
@sexually frustrated Stew,
No one is obsessed with your genitalia. But we know you’re obsessed with having a Yazidi girl. When are you going to tell us about your escapades in Iraq/Syria on your class field trip with your salafi/wahhabi brethren?
@Jihadi Stew,
You’re probably confusing me for your Yazidi girl. When are you going to tell us about your field trip to Iraq and Syria? Did you pay homage to your dear leader?
Shaikh Hamza makes good point though…when people see injustice, some want to change it and bring in big change but they need to realize that the repercussions may be worse than the situation now and that they may make situation worse for others
Greetings of Peace. Came across this post and felt that I needed to share a few thoughts after seeing the vicious attacks on one of the great Muslim scholars of the West and indeed of the world.
First, this clip was taken out of context from a lecture to a small group of people during a retreat.
Secondly, Shaykh Hamza was not mocking Syrians. He feels tremendous pain for what has befallen them, but he was teaching his students the importance of following prophetic guidance and what will happen if people didn’t and that generally, revolutions don’t end up well. Shaykh Hamza has been warning against these revolutions for over 30 years. Unfortunately, people follow their whims and emotions instead of following prophetic guidance and then they are surprised that things are not working out for them. Here’s a link to an old video of Shaykh Hamza and Dr. Abdal Hakim Murad. It’s definitely over 20 years old. In this video you understand why Shaykh Hamza is opposed to rebelling against tyrants (https://bit.ly/2kyahIe). That is not to say that everyone is to blame for rising up against the Syrian regime. Some people found themselves in a self-defense situation after the government unleashed its instruments of terror on the areas outside its control. Many people had no other choice. The blame is on those who instigated the revolution in the first place.
Thirdly, Shaykh Hamza has many Syrian teachers and has a very good understanding of what Syrians have gone through at the hands of the Baath Party and Assad regime. However, he also knows that removing one tyrant only to end up with a 100 tyrants is not a good solution. Here’s a link to an interview with the man in the iconic photo of the toppling of the Saddam Hussein statue in Baghdad. He now regrets having participated in that event. He now sees the wisdom of why God put Saddam in charge of Iraq.
I saw the video…I love Shaikh Hamza but he is wrong.
I assume there was so much resentment, that they pulled the video.
The problem is the hadith(s) that originated during the Umayyad and Abbasid empires…these dictators encouraged and propagated such hadiths…
I cannot say 100% if these hadiths are fabricated but they sound dubious to me.
And they certainly are in contradiction with the Qur’an.
If the American colonialists did not rebel against the British Empire which was “taxing them without representation” then there would be no USA.
Does Shaikh Hamza think the formation of the USA was a humiliation to the colonialists?
Shaikh Hamza is a wonderful person…may Allah bless him and have us continue to learn from him. But he needs to interpret the hadith through the Qur’an and not interpret the Qur’an through the hadith.
Allah’s word has to be supreme over man’s word and especially over dubious ahad hadiths (non mutawattir hadiths).
Again may Allah bless Shaikh Hamza. Ameen.
But we need to return fully to the Qur’an and the Qur’an tells us to not let go of our power of reason.
Yes, it is stupid to rebel when the tyrant is far more powerful but the Syrian people did not do it suddenly but saw the opportunity after the Arab Spring led to some success in Tunisia and Egypt.
Maybe the protesters were wrong and unfortunately some extremist Salafis highjacked a part of the movement.
But the hadith that Shaikh Hamza mentions is in contradiction with Allah’s teachings in the Qur’an.
Is it not time for Muslims to return the Qur’an to the front and center?
@ Ihsan
What ayat does Allah say to “reason” with His commands in revelations why don’t you quote it for everyone?
Allah says to use reason so often in the Qur’an that it’s silly to ask for one verse.
Just read the Qur’an.
@ Ihsan
Read the Quran lol I translated it. I’m saying you are lying upon Allah so I’ll ask again:
“What ayat does Allah say to “reason” with His commands in revelations?”
1. Are you saying you translated the whole Qur’an? If so congratulations.
Send me your translation of the Qur’an.
2. This is what I said….
“But we need to return fully to the Qur’an and the Qur’an tells us to not let go of our power of reason.”
So you think that Allah tells us to let go of our power of reason?
3. Here are some resources for you that you can’t achieve by reading the Qur’an without imposing on it centuries of Salafi brainwashing against reason
https://insideislam.wisc.edu/2011/09/on-the-quran-and-knowledge/
http://islam-and-muslims.com/Quran-Morality-Critical-Reason.pdf (not that I agree with all in this)
@ Ihsan
1. Translation
Sure. It’s still a WIP but if you have an email I can send it to you through Google Docs. This is why I’m trying to explain without background context you can apply MANY verses incorrectly. The entire intent of my translation was to drop as much interpretation as possible (so that other works could plug it in) and make it for a non-Muslim who knows nothing about Islam and simply picks up the Quran to read out of curiosity to follow along and I STILL had to rely on the Seerah and ahadith. Otherwise, you get gross mistranslations like:
“Let not the believers take the unbelievers for friends rather than believers…” (3:28)
When this is CLEARLY referring to from the context of its revelation political allies. Which is what the chief of the hypocrites was doing and when he was saying “they are my awliya” which is being played off of in the verse. While I agree you won’t get “misguided” like some people claim, the application is imo more important than the law itself and ahadith help clarify the context. What you’re talking about of “ahadith completly overturn laws in the Quran” etc is simply not true and the ONLY case I can think of this happening (and imo I think it can be reconciled if it was played with) is stoning for adultery. There are many things that if we went grammar for grammar would be EXTREMELY harsh. Off the top of my head hijab, when to do ghusl, and “striking” the wife.
2. Reason
Within limits. To begin the reason is referring to the existence of Allah and that Islam is true. For example:
13:3. It’s He who expanded the land placing stable mountains and rivers on it, as well as made pairs for every kind of fruit. He draws the night’s veil over the day and there are signs in this for people who ponder.
13:4. There are neighboring trees, vineyards, cornfields and palms growing from a single stem or many branches in the land ˹that are˺ all watered with the same water, yet I make some of them taste better than others. There are many signs in that for people who apply their intellect…
67:1. Blessed is He Whose Hand the Kingdom is in and He will forever have control of all things.
67:2. He is the One who created death and life, so that He can test who’s better in deeds. He is the Almighty and Constantly Forgiving,
67:3. who created seven skies layered on top of each other. You won’t see any inconsistency in the Most Merciful’s creation, so turn your sight and ponder, do you see any flaws?
67:4. Then look again and again, your perspective will change as it comes back to you humble and tired.
There are times where Allah reveals things that don’t apply to the intellect such as ordering bani Israel to slaughter a cow, hitting the sea with a staff, killing your only son, etc. I am saying people inappropriately apply the using your brain ayah.
3. “Salafi brainwashing against reason”
I never argued against science and technology nor have any scholars of the past. I am saying it is inappropriate to reject something Allah or His Messenger have said because you can’t “understand” it. Big difference between the two statements.
@stewjo004,
I never ever said to reject anything Allah said or His messenger.
It is illogical to reject anything that that the One who knows all.
It is inappropriate to say His messenger since the function of a messenger is to give a message and that is same as the Qur’an.
If you want to say hadith, then the argument is NOT to reject what the Prophet said but rather the argument is
1. Did God or the Prophet want us to raise his scatterings sayings virtually to the same level as God’s word?
2. What is the evidence that the sayings attributed to him are really from him?
3. Do we have ***adequate*** context for any saying even if it is from the Prophet?
4. Would the Prophet say exactly that same thing in our context?
5. How would we know if the Prophet would say the exact thing in our context?
6. Does Allah indicate that we are to exercise our reason to carry out being His khalifa on earth?
7. Or does Allah indicate in the Qur’an that we are to be automatons and use a massive secondary source of information to be compiled centuries later without the Prophet formally commissioning it and through chains of people of whom we have scant biographical information?
It is stunning that you think my argument is to not follow what God or what the Prophet says….
We are to only say we hear and obey to God….but from reading the Qur’an I see some good statements about the Torah and Injeel but zero no explicit statements about any in the future compilation…regarding obeying the messenger…you cannot prove that is apart from the message–the Qur;an…regarding the Prophet’s own sayings…of course the people who the Prophet are talking to should listen to him…it would be chaotic if they did not …Islam would not survive if they did not….as for now….it would be wonderful if we have audio or video of the Prophet saying things but we don’t…Allah could have told the Prophet to commission his companions or especially his political successors to compile his sayings….but Allah did not say that in any of the 6,200 verses.
Are we to dismiss the efforts to sift true hadith from false hadith…no, we should try to benefit from it as much as possible but to raise it virtually to the level of the Qur’an is the greatest bidah in the history of Islam and we are suffering from this bidah in countless ways leading to so much strife and injustice and lack of commitment to Islam and in difficulty in dawah because of it and to even many people leaving Islam because of it.
It could have worked to some effect in the past when people were mostly illiterate, are sheep-like and less critical thinkers but for many reasons, this bidah will continue to do enormous damage every day every place.
to the Prophet, we are to obey him but my conscience informed by my reasoning is that he did not want us to make his scattered sayings compiled through a process where there were more fabricated sayings than real sayings.
If you don’t know what the precisely arguments are (the 7 above, not your imagined arguments), you are wasting other people’s time reading your posts.
@ Ihsan
I’ll simplify this where is the Messenger’s(saw) commands to be obeyed?
ALL these questions can be answered but YOU simply refuse to go study them from qualified individuals and arrogantly presume you are the first person in 1,000 years to care about preserving the religion.
And another thing because you keep bringing this up and ignoring, where did Allah command His isolated verses to be compiled between two covers? See how somebody can keep playing this game? This isn’t bidah because there is a precedent for it from the Prophet’s(saw) time. Just saying what you said shows your ignorance about B.A.S.I.C.S in hadith, the “Sayings” are not isolated. You can find the entire thing late codifiers such as Bukhari took the whole thing and chopped the relevant part off and stuck it in a relevant chapter. This is another issue when people speak without knowledge, Bukhr for example when writing this book it was not meant to be read like “Oh I’m going to kick back and read some Bukhari” like people like to do. Bukhari was creating a quick reference encyclopedia for (and this is the important part) SCHOLARS, not you. This entire work is in reality a refutation of Imam Abu Hanifa.
Let’s again look at what you are claiming hs been forged:
http://twelvershia.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Tree-of-Thaqalayn-Chains.pdf
Yeah, it wasn’t amateur hour, there is a REASON no scholar throughout Islamic history has rejected ahadith.YOUR sect was created due to having an inferiority complex from European colonialism and a guy who claimed to be a prophet. And its funny with the “oh it’s so hard, people are leaving blah, blah, blah” (which is not true btw see my above statement about repeating what you hear)
Then why did I become a Muslim genius? You see unlike you I actually have life experience and understand the pragmaticism of the religion (for example listening to the Seerah yesterday and some people were “bothered” about the assassination of Ka’b ibn Ashraf. These people obviously live sheltered lives in the suburbs and have no experience with war because the plan was in reality brilliant) I keep telling you, YOU Ihsan simply have iman issues that you need to pray about and go PROPERLY study from qualified people. Life really ain’t that hard my dude.
Here since any random person can be read by you this person sums up pretty much how silly these beliefs are:
https://www.islamicdiscourseinitiative.com/canon/hadith/what-does-it-mean-for-a-hadith-to-be-in-sahih-al-bukhari/
https://www.islamicdiscourseinitiative.com/canon/hadith-the-myth-of-the-telephone-game/
https://www.islamicdiscourseinitiative.com/hadith/
I read all those last 3 links when soon after they came out…they came some good points.
but they don’t address:
1. Did God or the Prophet want us to raise his scatterings sayings virtually to the same level as God’s word?
2. What is the evidence that the sayings attributed to him are really from him?
3. Do we have ***adequate*** context for any saying even if it is from the Prophet?
4. Would the Prophet say exactly that same thing in our context?
5. How would we know if the Prophet would say the exact thing in our context?
6. Does Allah indicate that we are to exercise our reason to carry out being His khalifa on earth?
7. Or does Allah indicate in the Qur’an that we are to be automatons and use a massive secondary source of information to be compiled centuries later without the Prophet formally commissioning it and through chains of people of whom we have scant biographical information?
@ Ihsan
1. Did God or the Prophet want us to raise his scatterings sayings virtually to the same level as God’s word?
Yes. And now I’ll ask Did God want us to take His scattered revelations referring to specific incidents and compile them into chapters and placed between two covers? Secondly, why WOULD Allah tell us to write down what the Prophet(saw) said when that is not the Quran’s purpose?
2. What is the evidence that the sayings attributed to him are really from him?
Isnad. Rijal.
3. Do we have ***adequate*** context for any saying even if it is from the Prophet?
For the most part.
4. Would the Prophet say exactly that same thing in our context?
More than likely yes. According to some scholarly opinion, everything he says is revelation while others (and I favor this), some is the Prophet’s(saw) ijtihad HOWEVER it is still binding upon us as Shariah as Allah has granted him this authority:
4:64. I didn’t send any Messenger except for him to be obeyed by God’s permission…
4:66. But no! I swear on your Lord, they have no faith until they make you, the judge in any matters that will sprout up. And find no resistance even in their souls to your decisions.
4:67. Even if I had ordered something irrational such as: “kill yourselves” or “abandon your homes” only a few would’ve done it. Even though it still would’ve been better for them and made them firmer in their faith. Even in that case, I would’ve given them from Myself personally an immense reward,
4:68. and guided them to an undeviating path.
4:69. Whoever obeys God and the Messenger, will be with those He has bestowed His favor on such as the prophets, those who were first and foremost in following the Truth, those who testified to that Truth with their lives and the righteous. What excellent friends they are!
4:70. That is in fact God’s greatest favor and it’s enough that He knows all…
This is similar to what he did with other prophets such as Musa(as).
5. How would we know if the Prophet would say the exact thing in our context?
Because his Shariah is to stand until the day of judgment. To overturn his command you have to prove he wanted it overturned.
6. Does Allah indicate that we are to exercise our reason to carry out being His khalifa on earth?
Allah hu alim I do not recall an ayah saying this but I could be wrong.
7. Or does Allah indicate in the Qur’an that we are to be automatons and use a massive secondary source of information to be compiled centuries later without the Prophet formally commissioning it and through chains of people of whom we have scant biographical information?
A. Wasn’t compiled centuries later (seriously it really makes you sound ignorant saying this). It was more advanced CODIFIED a little over A single century later. There is a BIG difference between these two statements and it makes me almost want to be finished with the conversation as this keeps being explained to you.
B. The Prophet (saw) authorized things to be written for him. If you reject this then do not ever touch a mushaf containing the whole Quran ever again as according to your personal definition this is bidah.
C. Also, using your argument the Quran itself is a secondary source (because we actually preserved it through oral tradition) Show the WHOLE Quran from pre 632 CE
D. Study rijal.
E. Actually, we are told to obey Allah and His Messenger without question (hence we hear and obey):
3:32. Tell them: “Obey God and His Messenger.” But if they turn away, then God has no love for ungrateful disbelievers.
8:20. Believers, obey God and obey His Messenger, and do not ignore him when you hear him.
24:54. Tell them: “Obey God and obey the Messenger.” If you turn away and ignore this, he’s responsible for the duty placed upon him, and you’re responsible for the duty placed upon you. If you obey him, you will be guided, but the Messenger’s duty is only to deliver the message clearly.
47:33. Believers, obey God and obey the Messenger and do not cancel out your deeds,
There are WAY more but you get the point. Again it SOOOO ironic you keep using the “Allah told us to use our reasoning when we disobey Him” argument when that is NOT the context of those ayah. How can you say the ulema are twisting the Quran when you cannot even quote it in its proper context?
Disobeying the Prophet(saw) in reality makes one no better than the Jews quite frankly. Even your realm of questioning you just asked is basically the exact same line of questioning Allah criticizes them for in Baqarah:
2:67. Remember when Moses said to his nation: “God has commanded you to sacrifice a cow.” And they said: “Do you take us as a joke?” And Moses countered: “I seek God’s protection from being among the ignorant, who have no control over themselves…”
2:68. They said: “Go and call on your Master to clarify to us what it is.” And Moses responded: “He said it’s a cow which is neither too old nor too young, but in between that, so just do what you’re being commanded…”
2:69. And they said: “Go and call on your Master to clarify to us what color she is.” And Moses responded: “He said it’s a yellow cow, bright in color and a pleasure for all that look at it…”
2:70. And they said: “Go and call on your Master to clarify to us what sort should she be, because now this whole cow situation has made us confused and all cows look the same, if God wishes for it, we’ll be guided correctly…”
2:71. Moses retorted: “He said, it’s a cow neither trained to till land nor water fields, she’s flawless without any marks or spots…” They said: “Now, you’ve come with the truth!” So they slaughtered it, and even then were still hesitant to do it,
Very weak answers.
I studies rijal….I realize that rijal is what is the foundation of isnads but the foundation of rijal is even weaker than isnads.
So you have something that is weaker trying to hold up something heavier….trouble.
Allah says that religion is clear…it’s not based on such weakness.
PRophet has multiple hadiths forbidding writing down his non Quranic statements.
What is Prophet comes to you now and says that the conjecture that this was before and later his views changed was just that…conjecture.
I am not saying it is false…you just can’t prove that Prophet changed his mind.
Then what happens….
Your favorite word….
Boom….
this whole complicated contorted convuluted hadith system obscuring the Quran with many
non Quranic doctrines (and even some anti-Quranic doctrines) comes crashing down.
I did not say there was no notebooks until centuries…I said “compiled”….the compilations into Musnads and Jamia came much after the Suhuf…get the teachings that is pushed on you…get that straight yourself.
You are interpreting obedience to Messenger your own narrow way….Messenger means one who bring the message….
There were people who were telling the Prophet that they do follow Allah….read the Qur’an….Allah says that….so when that was being revealed….
it was not necessarily saying….follow Qur’an and Bukhari…
It could have been:
1. refuting those who say they follow Allah but they were not following a message…that’s why Allah says ….do they have a book (message) (I am paraphrasing).
2. and of course if people around Prophet at his time did not follow him, Islam would not travel further but it would have been exterminated
3. It can also be saying we should follow hadith but not necessarily at same level as Qur’an since the evidence for 99.9% of hadith is not at that level…actually not even one hadith is at that level
4. No, we don’t have sufficient context….you can’t distill life into few fragments accompanying a sayings.
Yes, you are mistaken about context of khalifa….***read the context of that passage***….Allah tells angels that He knows better than them why HE is creating humans and then He says that Adam had power of naming…no, this is not memorization…this is reason…the power to define…the power to have concepts…the power of abstract thought.
So go use some abstract thought, concepts and try to get out of your deep hole if you want to transcend your delusional antiQuranic thoughts.
@ Ihsan
Well bani Israel, how can I ever stand up to all the unsourced claims you bring and present as fact? We all have opinions and some (like myself in this conversation) are more qualified than others.
Anyways you “studies” rijal but earlier in your “matn criticism” in the link you provided the man based his ENTIRE opinion in a no evidence having part of rijal which was:
“Let’s ignore Aisha’s(ra) clear statement about when she married her husband because she was old and forgot”
That’s part of rijal Ihsan. If you reject this then throw out “matn criticism”.
“Allah says that religion is clear…it’s not based on such weakness.”
Oh God, I love the irony in how you abuse the Quran and then claim scholars do lol. Simple question here how did the Quran reach us today Ihsan? (aka the bane of every Hadith Rejector) Oh right through the hands of the same people who believed in ahadith. The Quran (and allow me to emphasis) is A GIANT HADITH it has isnad, uses rijal etc.
Moving on its not “conjecture” its reconciling and common sense. If:
1. The Prophet(saw) authorized people to write his statements (AND these statements were during the conquest of Mecca which is late Seerah)
2. He (saw) even says EXPLICIT statements just for dealing with dumb@$$ kuffar who will come 1,000 years later.
https://sunnah.com/abudawud/42/10
https://sunnah.com/abudawud/26/6
3. We KNOW for a fact SAHABA (aka the guys who were there) compiled hadith books and nobody rebuked them.
(As a side tangent bani Israel, “compile” means “to collect” as it’s scattered (which makes sense seeing as they were illiterate at the time). For example, the Quran was not “compiled” during the Prophet’s(saw) time. After he died what Abu Bakr(ra) did was “compilation”. What Uthman(ra) did was “codification” during his time. This is the exact same process happening with ahadith but the Qur’an is OBVIOUSLY a higher priority which is why you see the process REALLY start kicking up in Ali’s(ra) time. When you have the “suhuf” (aka notebooks to you) that’s its “compilation” genius. )
Moving on, there are no “non-Quranic doctrines” you have been proven to know little about the Quran and even less about hadith. Again most ahadith stand on their own and do not affect the Quran in any way,shape or form.
As for your “Tafseer”
1. refuting those who say they follow Allah but they were not following a message…that’s why Allah says ….do they have a book (message) (I am paraphrasing).
There is absolutely NOTHING in the context of the passage to support this. Again the irony in you just abusing the Quran.
2. and of course if people around Prophet at his time did not follow him, Islam would not travel further but it would have been exterminated
I assume you are saying people didn’t follow the Prophet(saw) Islam would not expand. Okay? Allah still says to obey His Messenger. To reject a command of his is kufr because you are now disobeying Allah.
3. It can also be saying we should follow hadith but not necessarily at same level as Qur’an since the evidence for 99.9% of hadith is not at that level…actually not even one hadith is at that level
Says your not learned opinion. I’ll just leave this here:
http://twelvershia.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/Hadith-ul-Afdaliyyah_TreeOfChains.pdf
4. No, we don’t have sufficient context….you can’t distill life into few fragments accompanying a sayings.
Again says your not learned opinion who didn’t know a hadith is chopped up in Bukhari.
As for your final bit of “Tafseer” about reasoning and the khalifah let’s read it together, shall we? (Emphasis mine)
2:30. When your Lord told the angels: “I am going to appoint a khalifah on the earth.” They asked: “You’re going to appoint ones who will spread disorder in the land and shed blood, while we declare Your perfection and glorify You?” And He told them: “I know what you don’t know…”
2:31. HE taught Adam the names, all of them…
That means ALLAH taught Adam(as) the names. Adam didn’t start making up things (unfortunately many of his children didn’t inherit this) So again your bid to twist the Quran alhamdulillah has failed. Furthermore, Allah tells Dawood(as):
38:26. “David I have placed you as a khalifah on the Earth, judge between people WITH TRUTH. DO NOT FOLLOW YOUR WHIMS AND DESIRES, BECAUSE THEY WILL MISLEAD YOU FROM GOD’S PATH…”
As a final note, I am VERY abstract in thought I just don’t side with kufr and take harsh stances against deviants trying to change the religion just so that’s clear.
“As a final note, I am VERY abstract in thought I just don’t side with kufr and take harsh stances against deviants trying to change the religion just so that’s clear.”
LOL! Ironic that this is coming from the deviant himself.
Ihsan, don’t waste your time with this salafi/wahhabi deviant. He is sexually frustrated and that’s why he has anger and rage issues. He had a field trip recently to Iraq that we’re waiting to hear all about.
@ IMran
Are you a f@g or something? Why are you so obsessed with my d!ck?
@sexually frustrated Stew,
No one is obsessed with your genitalia. But we know you’re obsessed with having a Yazidi girl. When are you going to tell us about your escapades in Iraq/Syria on your class field trip with your salafi/wahhabi brethren?
@ retarded fasiq Imram
You say you’re not obssessed with my genitalia but you stay keeping it in your mouth.
@Jihadi Stew,
You’re probably confusing me for your Yazidi girl. When are you going to tell us about your field trip to Iraq and Syria? Did you pay homage to your dear leader?
@ repressed homosexual Imran
Still worrying about other men’s sex life huh?
Shaikh Hamza makes good point though…when people see injustice, some want to change it and bring in big change but they need to realize that the repercussions may be worse than the situation now and that they may make situation worse for others
Greetings of Peace. Came across this post and felt that I needed to share a few thoughts after seeing the vicious attacks on one of the great Muslim scholars of the West and indeed of the world.
First, this clip was taken out of context from a lecture to a small group of people during a retreat.
Secondly, Shaykh Hamza was not mocking Syrians. He feels tremendous pain for what has befallen them, but he was teaching his students the importance of following prophetic guidance and what will happen if people didn’t and that generally, revolutions don’t end up well. Shaykh Hamza has been warning against these revolutions for over 30 years. Unfortunately, people follow their whims and emotions instead of following prophetic guidance and then they are surprised that things are not working out for them. Here’s a link to an old video of Shaykh Hamza and Dr. Abdal Hakim Murad. It’s definitely over 20 years old. In this video you understand why Shaykh Hamza is opposed to rebelling against tyrants (https://bit.ly/2kyahIe). That is not to say that everyone is to blame for rising up against the Syrian regime. Some people found themselves in a self-defense situation after the government unleashed its instruments of terror on the areas outside its control. Many people had no other choice. The blame is on those who instigated the revolution in the first place.
Thirdly, Shaykh Hamza has many Syrian teachers and has a very good understanding of what Syrians have gone through at the hands of the Baath Party and Assad regime. However, he also knows that removing one tyrant only to end up with a 100 tyrants is not a good solution. Here’s a link to an interview with the man in the iconic photo of the toppling of the Saddam Hussein statue in Baghdad. He now regrets having participated in that event. He now sees the wisdom of why God put Saddam in charge of Iraq.
Lastly, I am Syrian and I love Shaykh Hamza.
Maybe he should stick to prophecies about talking shoes.