Your god, per the bible, is described a murderous, vindictive, rather ignorant being that works with its supposed archenemy. Happily, it’s not real. I wouldn’t want a universe with such a petty thing in control either, and if it were real, I’d still not worship it. I have better morals than that.
darn, one more theist who thinks this is clever “Oh and please explain your objective criteria your opinion is based on please.”
I don’t need some god to get criteria from, and I’m quite happy to have subjective criteria that can change and get better.
As for the qu’ran no better than the bible, both books advocate for violence against non-believers. Both are very fearful religions since they can’t abide someone showing that they are wrong. Just like Christians, you pick and choose what you want to believe in it, and you have apologists just like Christians, trying to explain away the violence and ignorance in your supposed “holy” book.
We have the same lies about how nonbelievers are of Satan “Those who believe, fight in the cause of Allah, and those who disbelieve, fight in the cause of Satan. So fight you against the friends of Satan. Ever feeble indeed is the plot of Satan.”
We also have the conversion at the end of a sword “But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.”
The Qu’ran doesn’t have as much violence per page since it is shorter than the bible.
Like the bible, the qu’ran also has some words about peace in it. Both are contradictory works.
‘I don’t want…’ ‘I wouldn’t want…’ ‘I’d still not…’
These are not the words of reason but an exercise of will. Something that is important to remember when encountering its proponents. Despite reason and/or evidence; the obstinate, egoistic will is the greatest enemy of faith.
They are words of reason, patrobin. I’d still not worship your god since it is demonstrably ignorant and vicious, if the bible is true. Your morality is nothing more than might equals right.
Happily, humans do have will, and yep, it is the enemy of your ignorant beliefs since you desperately need obedience and ignorance for your religion to exist. You want to believe that your god exists. Anyone who questions you is a threat to you.
There is no evidence for your god nor any reason to believe in it. Christians use the same “reasons” that most, if not all, theists use for why they worship their gods e.g. “See the universe? My god created it.” And they have the same evidence for that god: none. None of the essential events in the bible can be shown true, just like the events in the qu’ran, etc.
You seem to have a lot of anger toward God of which I can only share my sympathies.
You are right however that you have the freedom to choose to worship Him or not, in fact I believe it is the same God you hate that gave you the ability to refuse his guidance.
I’m not going to lessen God by answering your hate-filled tirade against Him as though there is some desperation to get you believe, again that is your choice, I can only encourage you to drink in the wisdom contained in his Word and consider its teachings with an open mind and heart.
Nope, no anger toward your god, since it is imaginary. But theists do find that they choose to make this false claim often, since you have to try to ignore any arguments made by an atheist by claiming they are just emotional.
Now where does your holy book say anyone has a choice?
If your god can be “lessened” by you answering questions, you don’t have much of hooses who can accept it and who can’t (Romans 9). a god. As for “hate-filled tirade”, I’m sure it’s much easier to lie about that than to admit that there are points you are afraid to address.
Darn, one more atheist who thinks he’s “edgy” and that being an arrogant jack@$$ equals being smart. Anyways its not clever just obvious to anyone that you have to have objective criteria and that the world does not run on clubschadenfreude’s feelings. My apologies that everyone does not subject themselves to your menstrual cycle. Nice strawman, but I did not once say you need God to have a set of morals (known as fitra in Islam) I am saying other than your whims (which change and move when you get refuted because its easier to do this than admit to being wrong) how are you determining what is right and wrong? The Quran does not have your issues you listed above as being:
murderous
vindictive
rather ignorant being that works with its supposed archenemy.
We do NOT believe these things anb IF you check the blog criticize them QUITE frequently. You’re taking the Christian concept of God and saying ALL religions believe this when its not true.
Moving on to your points,
1. Quran and violence
Not really you just haven’t read it and don’t know what you’re talking about. You have a handful of passages talking about a war with the Prophet’s(saw) tribe. Again if you read it you would know this basic.
2. Can’t shown to be wrong
Can’t speak for Christianity but we just can’t be shown to be wrong.
3. Picking and choosing beliefs
Uhhh… no? Unlike Christianity we have set things YOU must believe in order to be a Muslim this ain’t a buffet.
4. Surah Tauba
Since you took about a whole 10 seconds on Google to quote the verse like you know it let’s do a simple refutation for giggles.
1. Instead of talking from our butts let’s read:
9:1. ˹This is the˺ cut off by God and His Messenger from the treaties you’ve made with those who equate others ˹with Him˺.
9:2. Hang around in the land for four months, but keep in mind that you will never escape God, and that God will disgrace and humiliate those who’ve disbelieved.
9:3. This is a proclamation from God and His Messenger, TO THE PEOPLE ON THE DAY OF THE HAJJ ˹pilgrimage˺. God is free from any commitment to the pagans, and so is His Messenger. If you repent now, it’s better for you. But if you decide to turn away, then be aware that you can never frustrate God’s will. So give the ones who disbelieve the ‘congratulations’ of a painful punishment.
9:4. As for those who have honored the treaty you made with them and have not supported anyone against you, fulfill your agreement with them to the end of their terms because God loves those who are god fearing.
9:5. When the forbidden months are over you may kill the idol worshippers wherever they’re encountered. Arrest, surround and wait for them at every checkpoint, ˹but˺ if they repent, establish prayer and give charity, let them go on their way because God is Most Forgiving and Forever Merciful.
9:6. If any of the pagans seeks your protection, grant it to them so that they can hear God’s Word. Then take them to a place where they feel comfortable and safe because they’re people that didn’t know.
9:7. How can there be a treaty with God and His Messenger with people who equate others ˹with Him˺? As for the ones who you made a treaty with at the Kaaba, you are to stand by it as long they stand by it, because God loves those who are mindful of Him.
9:8. How, when whenever they’ve had any opportunity to advance against you or have gained the upper hand, they do not respect any courtesies with you? They only try to flatter you with what their mouths utter, but their hearts are against you and most of them are corrupt.
9:9. They have sold God’s revelations for a small price, and blocked themselves and others from His path. Have no doubts about this, what they do is evil.
9:10. They would show no courtesy or regard whenever believers were concerned, whether it was the norms of being family or treaties. They are the ones who are committing the aggression.
9:11. If they repent, establish prayer and give charity , then they’re your brothers in faith. I will explain these verses in detail for people who are willing to learn.
9:12. However if they violate their treaty once they’ve agreed to it and insult your religion, then fight the leaders of disbelief so that they stop because their promises mean nothing to them,.
9:13. How can you not fight a people who’ve broken their word, tried to drive out the Messenger, and attacked you first? Do you fear them? It’s God you should fear if you’re people with true faith.
9:14. Fight them! God will punish them by your hands and humiliate them! He will help you against them and heal what’s in the chest of people who believe,
9:15. by removing the anger and frustration from their hearts. God accepts whoever He wishes into His mercy because God is the All knowing and the One who passes Judgement.
When I last checked you are not one of the people standing on the day of the Hajj pilgrimage and have not formed a treaty with the Prophet Muhammad(saw). As opposed to cherry-picking “big ol scary” verse 5-6 by simply reading as it says in verse 11 God will explain the context of what He’s talking about. This is a message to a specific group of people that betrayed their treaties with the Prophet(saw) Muhammad and the early Muslim community. As you can see it has nothing to do with you. However as a final not, war is a part of the human experience and so yes we have rules and regulations about what is and what is not acceptable conduct. So this actually acts as proof FOR our book not against it. Thank you.
Oh idc about WHAT his morals are I just want objective criteria for how the world should run other than “this is how I feel”. The reason I don’t like talking to athiest is not because their “smart” but SUPER emotional and as the noose starts closing in they move the goal post. So I just want ground rules established.
No, it is not “obvious” that anyone has to have objective criteria to judge something. We have theists who constantly change what their god really wants, so the claims of their god being an objective source of morality or anything are false. That theists don’t agree, even in within their own religions, shows that none of you have any objective ground to stand on.
So, I’m a guy and I have a menstrual cycle? Tsk, what a failure you are.
You didn’t have to literally claim one has to have a god to have objective morals, and yep, they are called fitra. I know that is what you believe. And nice false claim that my “whims” change. Please do show where that happened. Or are you lying?
Islam is a version of Judaism and Christianity, with one more group of humans desperate to imagine that their version is the right one. I mentioned Christianity and now I’m mentioning Islam. The Christian god works with its supposed archenemy. That is not true in Islam.
Like Christians, you try to ignore the parts of the qu’ran you don’t like and try to reinterpret them to excuse your book from being what it is, a book written by ignorant men, just like the bible. You want to claim that the verses I mentioned were “only” about a war with a tribe, but funny how other Muslims say you are wrong. Like Christans, you don’t agree and again show you have no truth. I did read the qu’ran and I knew the excuse you would offer.
You can be shown to be wrong since you can’t support your claims and the rather silly claims of the qu’ran. If one reads the qu’ran, then you know that it makes a lot of the same silly claims as the bible, having come from it. It does have its own though. The moon was never split.
It’s not hard to find verses that show you wrong, or at lease attempting to cover up what the qu’ran says
2:1 Alif. Lam. Mim.
2:2 This is the Scripture whereof there is no doubt, a guidance unto those who ward off (evil).
2:3 Who believe in the Unseen, and establish worship, and spend of that We have bestowed upon them;
2:4 And who believe in that which is revealed unto thee (Muhammad) and that which was revealed before thee, and are certain of the Hereafter.
2:5 These depend on guidance from their Lord. These are the successful.
2:6 As for the Disbelievers, Whether thou warn them or thou warn them not it is all one for them; they believe not.
2:7 Allah hath sealed their hearing and their hearts, and on their eyes there is a covering. Theirs will be an awful doom.
2:8 And of mankind are some who say: We believe in Allah and the Last Day, when they believe not.
2:9 They think to beguile Allah and those who believe, and they beguile none save themselves; but they perceive not.
2:10 In their hearts is a disease, and Allah increaseth their disease. A painful doom is theirs because they lie.
2:11 And when it is said unto them: Make not mischief in the earth, they say: We are peacemakers only.
2:12 Are not they indeed the mischief-makers ? But they perceive not.
2:13 And when it is said unto them: believe as the people believe, they say: shall we believe as the foolish believe ? are not they indeed the foolish ? But they know not.
2:14 And when they fall in with those who believe, they say: We believe; but when they go apart to their devils they declare: Lo! we are with you; verily we did but mock.
2:15 Allah (Himself) doth mock them, leaving them to wander blindly on in their contumacy.
2:16 These are they who purchase error at the price of guidance, so their commerce doth not prosper, neither are they guided.
2:17 Their likeness is as the likeness of one who kindleth fire, and when it sheddeth its light around him Allah taketh away their light and leaveth them in darkness, where they cannot see,
2:18 Deaf, dumb and blind; and they return not.
2:19 Or like a rainstorm from the sky, wherein is darkness, thunder and the flash of lightning. They thrust their fingers in their ears by reason of the thunder-claps, for fear of death, Allah encompasseth the disbelievers (in His guidance, His omniscience and His omnipotence).
2:20 The lightning almost snatcheth away their sight from them. As often as it flasheth forth for them they walk therein, and when it darkeneth against them they stand still. If Allah willed, He could destroy their hearing and their sight. Lo! Allah is able to do all things.
2:21 O mankind! worship your Lord, Who hath created you and those before you, so that ye may ward off (evil).
2:22 Who hath appointed the earth a resting-place for you, and the sky a canopy; and causeth water to pour down from the sky, thereby producing fruits as food for you. And do not set up rivals to Allah when ye know (better).
2:23 And if ye are in doubt concerning that which We reveal unto Our slave (Muhammad), then produce a surah of the like thereof, and call your witness beside Allah if ye are truthful.
2:24 And if ye do it not – and ye can never do it – then guard yourselves against the Fire prepared for disbelievers, whose fuel is of men and stones.
And the rest is here: http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/2/index.htm#6 We can look at this “7 Allah hath sealed their hearing and their hearts, and on their eyes there is a covering. Theirs will be an awful doom.” And then look at this “7:41 Theirs will be a bed of hell, and over them coverings (of hell). Thus do We requite wrong-doers.” To see a rather pathetic god that intentionally sends people to hell for no action of their own.
Having rules for wars, as you acknowledge that humans have always had, is no proof for your nonsense being true. Just like it is not proof for Christianity being true.
The bottom line is that Mohammed justified killing and other forms of harming human beings because of a religious squabble over a piece of ground in Mecca.
Harming non-Muslims because of their religious beliefs was thus given sanction and continues to this day. Islam just calls it Jihad.
That’s right side with the people who are insulting God.
Anyways, I thought it had to do with being persecuted and kicked out of their homes but hey. Anyways using your logic Erasmus, what did Joshua(as) do to all those human beings because of a religious squabble over a piece of ground in Jerusalem?
I’m sorry you you said its not obvious that standards are used by people? Please show me a society whether it is the US constitution, Acts of parliament or tribal laws in Afghanistan etc that does not have some kind of standard? IF this wasn’t the case it would be pure anarchy as I could come into your home, take your stuff, rape your wife and kill you with no consequences as I see no reason to say its wrong. ALL societies whether modern or tribal use some sort of standard for judgment. You’re entire argument is “Quran is bad muahh”. Cool, based on?
In regards to the rest of your emotional ramble (i.e. you being on your menses)
1.Your Whims
They change all the time and since I know athiest are basically the weird kids who used cut themselves in the bathroom,I know you will do this (hence why you have yet to show what you base your decision) Trust me you are a dime a dozen.
2. Your Claims
You said:
“Your god, per the bible, is described a murderous, vindictive, rather ignorant being that works with its supposed archenemy”
Now it appears you thought Paul was a Christian which I responded these don’t exist in Islam. You then said:
“the qu’ran is no better”
And tried to quote “violence in the Quran” to prove your initial argument. This was refuted by this coll thing called “reading” NOW you have moved your post to “no, no I didn’t say that” AND made another fallacy of “well illiterate tribesmen interpreted that way wah, wah, wah”
I do not CARE what other ignorant folk have said you and I are talking.
3. Fitra
Interesting that you claim to “know about it” and then completely get it wrong AND then continue on your emotional red herring about how you don’t need God to have morals. What do I need to watch it for when I already agree dumb@$$?
As for annotated skeptic this was made by another group of dumb@$$e$ who don’t even have basic reading comprehension in English and then quoted other dumb@$$e$ who didn’t know what they were talking about (they literally just copied Shamoun)
4. Baqarah
Yes this applies to people like you who have chosen to disbelieve no matter what is shown to you so God cruises you along with your choice. Don’t see the problem?
I’ll give a realistic example IF I refute your arguments against God and why you have chosen to be an atheist AND you agree woth everything I said will you become Muslim? Just need a yes or no?
He got refuted on Surah 9 and his only response was ‘well other Muslims disagree with you’. Since when is that a refutation???
Then nearly every point made by Dawkins can be thrown into the garbage bin by merely saying ‘you’re wrong cus other atheists disagree with you on those points so there!’.
If he is refering to not believing in God as “no action of their own” then yea. I don’t see a problem either.
I mean living your life as if for example you father doesn’t exist would be EXTREMELY disgusting. What do you think will happen if you do this to an INFINITE being that made you from scratch?
“Anyways, I thought it had to do with being persecuted and kicked out of their homes but hey.”
But hey wasn’t Mohammed harassing the Meccans? And if they had stopped persecuting he would have allowed them to continue using the Kaaba for their worship? I don’t think so. And because they didn’t give up their claims to the Kaaba Mohammed declared war on them. A just war?
that jesus harassing peaceful jews in the temple and then fucking up their torah mandated practices. can you show evidence muhammad was harrassing meccans ?
The money changers and others were doing something wrong no doubt.
They could have been charging too much and \ or they could have been too close to the temple itself and caused defilement.
The meccans allowed Mohammed to preach and pray at the Kaaba. In return Mohammed was plotting to make alliances with Medinan tribes so he could wage war against the Meccans. All for a pile of old stones. Blood for dust you could say.
1. You seem to have ignored the part about Joshua’s(as) alleged genocide for piece of land could you clarify that for every one?
2. You have absolutely no proof for what you said about Jesus(as) and the money lenders. All you have is they were going about their legal buisness and he flipped over their tables and hurt people.
The Jews allowed him to preach and pray at the Temple. In return because they didn’t want to follow him and didn’t (and still don’t) believe him to be the Messiah he attacked them which caused them to go to the rightful authoroties. Speaking of which using your logic he should be grateful that the the Romans allowed him to preach and pray at the Temple. In return, Jesus was then making alliances with the Zealots, Judean officials such as tax collectors, John’s(as) followers and the general Jewish population to wage war against the Sahedrin and the Romans. Blood for dust you could say indeed.
“they could have been too close to the temple itself and caused defilement”
if money exchange is “defilement” then sacrificing a pig or worshipping an idol in the temple would be the height of defilement. WRECKING the temple and PUTTING blemish on animals by whipping them would break torah law and would be a defilement. The jews say in reply “what sign can you show us for doing such thing?”
This was their pacifistic reply to jesus’ terrorism.
“The money changers and others were doing something wrong no doubt.”
. The money changers were low level functionaries who just exchanged roman coins for coins that could be used at the temple. The torah required that.
jesus BLAMES people for doing a job TORAH REQUIRES
jesus’ evil actions could have easily gotten hundreds of innocent jews slaughtered.
he is USING VIOLENCE against a people who would have GONE back doing the money exchange because torah requires that.
“They could have been charging too much and \ or they could have been too close to the temple itself and caused defilement.”
so you allow jesus to use terroristic violence against people who were TOLD WHAT to do? which law in torah allows a shut down of torah mandate especially at most busy time of the year?
“The meccans allowed Mohammed to preach and pray at the Kaaba.”
when they start persecuting him heavily they were allowing him to preach at the kaaba? but compare to jesus, he PERSECUTES a jewish people for DOING what GOD MANDATED. he USES VIOLENCE on people who were simply JUST WORKERS who were obeying orders .
” In return Mohammed was plotting to make alliances with Medinan tribes so he could wage war against the Meccans. All for a pile of old stones. Blood for dust you could say.”
“all for a pile of old stones”
notice how a crosstian starts thinking like an atheist when it comes to muhammad, but when we ask the athiests about jesus’ violence at the temple, they say :
In an age of slavery, widespread infanticide, massive human rights violations, etc., Jesus is most angry about a few people making money by exchanging currency in the Temple? That seems like a highly trivial matter for God on Earth to become so upset about.
now i want to you bring forth evidence that “muhammad plot alliances with tribes all for a pile of old stones” and THIS WAS THE ONLY REASON….
“notice how a crosstian starts thinking like an atheist when it comes to muhammad, but when we ask the athiests about jesus’ violence at the temple, they say :”
I am an atheist in relation to Allah and all other gods that men dream up.
“John 2:15
And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers’ money, and overthrew the tables
12 And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves,
Nobody was hurt. Why all your nonsensical talk about “terroristic violence”? Probably they should have carried on their business but outside the temple precincts.
“In an age of slavery, widespread infanticide, massive human rights violations, etc., Jesus is most angry about a few people making money by exchanging currency in the Temple? That seems like a highly trivial matter for God on Earth to become so upset about.”
The OT spoke against all these things. Jesus didn’t come to put a plaster on the wound but to cause healing at the source of all evil. In the human heart itself.
“now i want to you bring forth evidence that “muhammad plot alliances with tribes all for a pile of old stones” and THIS WAS THE ONLY REASON….”
Mohammed left Mecca after forming alliances with tribes in Medina who became Muslims. After this the Meccans tried to kill him because they knew he would not stop until he had taken over complete control of Mecca. Up to this point in time he had always had a protector until his uncle died.
He knew that he had to leave Mecca and build a power base in Medina which would be strong enough to wage war against the Meccans.
His first tactic was to attack the trade caravans of the Meccans. This was just the opening gambit.
Iggy says he disbelieves in the gods men dream up. Do you mean the mangods dreamt up by the Greeks, Hindus and Christians?
I didbelieve in these fantasy gods as well. Glad we agree Iggy. So, when will you be renouncing your mangod Iggy?
Oh and just for kicks, here is a lovely Bible verse of the day:
“You will overthrow every fortified city and every major town. You will cut down every good tree, stop up all the springs, and ruin every good field with stones.” 2 Kings 3
why are christians such stinking fukin hypocrites? yhwh in the torah tells the jews to LAND grab and DESTROY pagan INFRASTRUCTURE . what standard do you have to judge muhammad? the land is just “pile of old stones”
0. first lets inform readers about jesus’ violent purpose . matthew 10:34-37
1. how do you move about thousands of animals ???? With the pagan zeal and anger your pagan god had, how did he move about those hundreds of animals? if no violence was used , why didnt the religious jews grab him /stone him to death ?they would not easily give up their income and torah mandate because a terrorist vandal demanded it? they would allow this guy to break laws from their own torah? if they saw the vandalism he did, there would be like minded jews who would have vandalised jesus . this would be busiest time in preparation for their holy days. he makes up a whip , the material would already be available. since in jesus’ mind it was the humans doing the desecration , what purpose was their in driving out animals ?
Psalm 69 “let thy BURNING anger OVERTAKE them….”
acts 6.13 -14 Says jesus will destroy the temple
it doesnt matter if it is “false accusation”
We have seen that jesus has violent purpose and he is not come to BRING peace but a sword ….so acts could be preserving an authentic tradition about jesus violence against the temple.
if i were to come into erASSMus’ church and TRASHED everything there and drive out the congregation using a whip because i did not like the idea of selling and buying , i should not be called a vandal , but a man of love and peace.
when john tells his READERS that jesus MADE a whip, his readers would OBVIOUDLY HAVE UNDERSTOOD how jesus Accomplished the DRIVING OUT OF THE BUYERS-SELLERS-ANIMALS
they would know what DAMAGE WHIPS did
jesus was fulfilling yhwhs violence in psalm 69
“The OT spoke against all these things. ”
where does the ot allow one to CARRY out the VANDALISM jesus did in a high holy place? his sacrilegious act would have DISGUSTED those poor PILGRIMS who came to BUY an animal
think about it. they came from long distances , went to purchase an ANIMAL only to find out they would be driven out by a whip. this WOULD BE against torah.
jesus’ oppression against these people doing business in PEACEFUL way should disgust you.
“Jesus didn’t come to put a plaster on the wound but to cause healing at the source of all evil. ”
yes, your pagan religion MIXES love and violence.
“n the human heart itself.”
You dont need to trash their property arsehole. Neither do you need to cause disruption in holy place.
“Mohammed left Mecca after forming alliances with tribes in Medina who became Muslims. ”
whats the problem?
“fter this the Meccans tried to kill him because they knew he would not stop until he had taken over complete control of Mecca. ”
first paste the narration, BITCH
then prove your “they knew he would nkt stop until he had taken over complete control….
From a torah perspective what is wrong with CLEANING a place of idolatry?
“Up to this point in time he had always had a protector until his uncle died.
He knew that he had to leave Mecca and build a power base in Medina which would be strong enough to wage war against the Meccans.”
First post the narration, BITCH and tell me what is wrong with creating a “power base”
And “waging war” from a torah perspective.
If you reject gods people dream up then there is no way you would be worshipping Jesus(as) God’s creation.
Next, you seem to have selective memory so allow me to repost:
1. You seem to have ignored the part about Joshua’s(as) alleged genocide for a piece of land could you clarify that for everyone?
2. You have absolutely no proof for what you said about Jesus(as) and the money lenders. All you have is they were going about their legal business and he flipped over their tables and hurt people.
The Jews allowed him to preach and pray at the Temple. In return, because they didn’t want to follow him and didn’t (and still don’t) believe him to be the Messiah he attacked them which caused them to go to the rightful authorities. Speaking of which using your logic he should be grateful that the Romans allowed him to preach and pray at the Temple. In return, Jesus was then making alliances with the Zealots, Judean officials such as tax collectors, John’s(as) followers and the general Jewish population to wage war against the Sanhedrin and the Romans. Blood for dust you could say indeed.
“Probably they should have carried on their business but outside the temple precincts.”
Why? in what way will currency exchange and selling animal (all which was required by yhwh) make problem ?
the exchange is required to remember that god does not like images. The selling of animals is to remember what god required. These exchanges only make one remember their god , not monetary gain.
your god ruined peaceful business in REMEMBRANCE of yhwh because he did not like the idea of doing TORAH MANDATED business. if anything, ur god has a problem with precepts of yhwh.
“In an age of slavery, widespread infanticide, massive human rights violations, etc., Jesus is most angry about a few people making money by exchanging currency in the Temple? That seems like a highly trivial matter for God on Earth to become so upset about.”
“The OT spoke against all these things. ”
jesus was busy getting angry with torah mandate.
“Jesus didn’t come to put a plaster on the wound but to cause healing at the source of all evil. ”
how is exchanging money evil ? Plus, why attack a torah MANDATED practice ? Plus, why attack the workers? They were working for their bosses.
“In the human heart itself”
how does physically attacking people and breaking torah mandate change “human heart” ?
how does POINTLESS violence gain? They would go back doing the exchanges because torah mandated it. they would go back selling animals because torah mandated it.
he is using POINTLESS oppression on poor people . vandalising property, using a whip to drive out people.
again this would be a time of the year which would be busy. Romans would be preparing to hack these poor people if their is any disturbance. jesus’ terroristic attack on temple would have caused the deaths of hundreds of innocent buyers and sellers. you should be ashamed of jesus’ acts which go against the torah. remember if jesus thought it was good to vandalise then similar minded jews would have thought it good enough to vandalise him.
*Dogmatic atheism.
Mohammed must have had similar feelings with respect to other religions.
paul had similar feelings witg respect to other crosstians in his time
Your god, per the bible, is described a murderous, vindictive, rather ignorant being that works with its supposed archenemy. Happily, it’s not real. I wouldn’t want a universe with such a petty thing in control either, and if it were real, I’d still not worship it. I have better morals than that.
@ clubschadenfreude
Whewww good thing we Muslims (such as Paul) don’t believe in the bad tales of the Bible either.
the qu’ran is no better.
@ clubschadenfreude
Great…comeback? Anyways I’ll bite how so?
@ clubschadenfreude
Oh and please explain your objective criteria your opinion is based on please.
darn, one more theist who thinks this is clever “Oh and please explain your objective criteria your opinion is based on please.”
I don’t need some god to get criteria from, and I’m quite happy to have subjective criteria that can change and get better.
As for the qu’ran no better than the bible, both books advocate for violence against non-believers. Both are very fearful religions since they can’t abide someone showing that they are wrong. Just like Christians, you pick and choose what you want to believe in it, and you have apologists just like Christians, trying to explain away the violence and ignorance in your supposed “holy” book.
We have the same lies about how nonbelievers are of Satan “Those who believe, fight in the cause of Allah, and those who disbelieve, fight in the cause of Satan. So fight you against the friends of Satan. Ever feeble indeed is the plot of Satan.”
We also have the conversion at the end of a sword “But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.”
The Qu’ran doesn’t have as much violence per page since it is shorter than the bible.
Like the bible, the qu’ran also has some words about peace in it. Both are contradictory works.
‘I don’t want…’ ‘I wouldn’t want…’ ‘I’d still not…’
These are not the words of reason but an exercise of will. Something that is important to remember when encountering its proponents. Despite reason and/or evidence; the obstinate, egoistic will is the greatest enemy of faith.
🙁
They are words of reason, patrobin. I’d still not worship your god since it is demonstrably ignorant and vicious, if the bible is true. Your morality is nothing more than might equals right.
Happily, humans do have will, and yep, it is the enemy of your ignorant beliefs since you desperately need obedience and ignorance for your religion to exist. You want to believe that your god exists. Anyone who questions you is a threat to you.
There is no evidence for your god nor any reason to believe in it. Christians use the same “reasons” that most, if not all, theists use for why they worship their gods e.g. “See the universe? My god created it.” And they have the same evidence for that god: none. None of the essential events in the bible can be shown true, just like the events in the qu’ran, etc.
You seem to have a lot of anger toward God of which I can only share my sympathies.
You are right however that you have the freedom to choose to worship Him or not, in fact I believe it is the same God you hate that gave you the ability to refuse his guidance.
I’m not going to lessen God by answering your hate-filled tirade against Him as though there is some desperation to get you believe, again that is your choice, I can only encourage you to drink in the wisdom contained in his Word and consider its teachings with an open mind and heart.
Salam
Nope, no anger toward your god, since it is imaginary. But theists do find that they choose to make this false claim often, since you have to try to ignore any arguments made by an atheist by claiming they are just emotional.
Now where does your holy book say anyone has a choice?
If your god can be “lessened” by you answering questions, you don’t have much of hooses who can accept it and who can’t (Romans 9). a god. As for “hate-filled tirade”, I’m sure it’s much easier to lie about that than to admit that there are points you are afraid to address.
Both Christainity and Islam have a god that picks its believers supposedly even before they are born.
@ patrobin
You want me to take care of this basic sh!t that he thinks is just rocking worlds right now?
@ clubschadenfreude
Darn, one more atheist who thinks he’s “edgy” and that being an arrogant jack@$$ equals being smart. Anyways its not clever just obvious to anyone that you have to have objective criteria and that the world does not run on clubschadenfreude’s feelings. My apologies that everyone does not subject themselves to your menstrual cycle. Nice strawman, but I did not once say you need God to have a set of morals (known as fitra in Islam) I am saying other than your whims (which change and move when you get refuted because its easier to do this than admit to being wrong) how are you determining what is right and wrong? The Quran does not have your issues you listed above as being:
murderous
vindictive
rather ignorant being that works with its supposed archenemy.
We do NOT believe these things anb IF you check the blog criticize them QUITE frequently. You’re taking the Christian concept of God and saying ALL religions believe this when its not true.
Moving on to your points,
1. Quran and violence
Not really you just haven’t read it and don’t know what you’re talking about. You have a handful of passages talking about a war with the Prophet’s(saw) tribe. Again if you read it you would know this basic.
2. Can’t shown to be wrong
Can’t speak for Christianity but we just can’t be shown to be wrong.
3. Picking and choosing beliefs
Uhhh… no? Unlike Christianity we have set things YOU must believe in order to be a Muslim this ain’t a buffet.
4. Surah Tauba
Since you took about a whole 10 seconds on Google to quote the verse like you know it let’s do a simple refutation for giggles.
1. Instead of talking from our butts let’s read:
9:1. ˹This is the˺ cut off by God and His Messenger from the treaties you’ve made with those who equate others ˹with Him˺.
9:2. Hang around in the land for four months, but keep in mind that you will never escape God, and that God will disgrace and humiliate those who’ve disbelieved.
9:3. This is a proclamation from God and His Messenger, TO THE PEOPLE ON THE DAY OF THE HAJJ ˹pilgrimage˺. God is free from any commitment to the pagans, and so is His Messenger. If you repent now, it’s better for you. But if you decide to turn away, then be aware that you can never frustrate God’s will. So give the ones who disbelieve the ‘congratulations’ of a painful punishment.
9:4. As for those who have honored the treaty you made with them and have not supported anyone against you, fulfill your agreement with them to the end of their terms because God loves those who are god fearing.
9:5. When the forbidden months are over you may kill the idol worshippers wherever they’re encountered. Arrest, surround and wait for them at every checkpoint, ˹but˺ if they repent, establish prayer and give charity, let them go on their way because God is Most Forgiving and Forever Merciful.
9:6. If any of the pagans seeks your protection, grant it to them so that they can hear God’s Word. Then take them to a place where they feel comfortable and safe because they’re people that didn’t know.
9:7. How can there be a treaty with God and His Messenger with people who equate others ˹with Him˺? As for the ones who you made a treaty with at the Kaaba, you are to stand by it as long they stand by it, because God loves those who are mindful of Him.
9:8. How, when whenever they’ve had any opportunity to advance against you or have gained the upper hand, they do not respect any courtesies with you? They only try to flatter you with what their mouths utter, but their hearts are against you and most of them are corrupt.
9:9. They have sold God’s revelations for a small price, and blocked themselves and others from His path. Have no doubts about this, what they do is evil.
9:10. They would show no courtesy or regard whenever believers were concerned, whether it was the norms of being family or treaties. They are the ones who are committing the aggression.
9:11. If they repent, establish prayer and give charity , then they’re your brothers in faith. I will explain these verses in detail for people who are willing to learn.
9:12. However if they violate their treaty once they’ve agreed to it and insult your religion, then fight the leaders of disbelief so that they stop because their promises mean nothing to them,.
9:13. How can you not fight a people who’ve broken their word, tried to drive out the Messenger, and attacked you first? Do you fear them? It’s God you should fear if you’re people with true faith.
9:14. Fight them! God will punish them by your hands and humiliate them! He will help you against them and heal what’s in the chest of people who believe,
9:15. by removing the anger and frustration from their hearts. God accepts whoever He wishes into His mercy because God is the All knowing and the One who passes Judgement.
When I last checked you are not one of the people standing on the day of the Hajj pilgrimage and have not formed a treaty with the Prophet Muhammad(saw). As opposed to cherry-picking “big ol scary” verse 5-6 by simply reading as it says in verse 11 God will explain the context of what He’s talking about. This is a message to a specific group of people that betrayed their treaties with the Prophet(saw) Muhammad and the early Muslim community. As you can see it has nothing to do with you. However as a final not, war is a part of the human experience and so yes we have rules and regulations about what is and what is not acceptable conduct. So this actually acts as proof FOR our book not against it. Thank you.
https://giphy.com/gifs/3o7qDSOvfaCO9b3MlO/html5
This ‘bag of chemicals’ just wants attention. Someone who believes that zapping particles creates moral values is doomed to act high and mighty.
@ Atlas
Oh idc about WHAT his morals are I just want objective criteria for how the world should run other than “this is how I feel”. The reason I don’t like talking to athiest is not because their “smart” but SUPER emotional and as the noose starts closing in they move the goal post. So I just want ground rules established.
No, it is not “obvious” that anyone has to have objective criteria to judge something. We have theists who constantly change what their god really wants, so the claims of their god being an objective source of morality or anything are false. That theists don’t agree, even in within their own religions, shows that none of you have any objective ground to stand on.
So, I’m a guy and I have a menstrual cycle? Tsk, what a failure you are.
You didn’t have to literally claim one has to have a god to have objective morals, and yep, they are called fitra. I know that is what you believe. And nice false claim that my “whims” change. Please do show where that happened. Or are you lying?
Islam is a version of Judaism and Christianity, with one more group of humans desperate to imagine that their version is the right one. I mentioned Christianity and now I’m mentioning Islam. The Christian god works with its supposed archenemy. That is not true in Islam.
Like Christians, you try to ignore the parts of the qu’ran you don’t like and try to reinterpret them to excuse your book from being what it is, a book written by ignorant men, just like the bible. You want to claim that the verses I mentioned were “only” about a war with a tribe, but funny how other Muslims say you are wrong. Like Christans, you don’t agree and again show you have no truth. I did read the qu’ran and I knew the excuse you would offer.
You can be shown to be wrong since you can’t support your claims and the rather silly claims of the qu’ran. If one reads the qu’ran, then you know that it makes a lot of the same silly claims as the bible, having come from it. It does have its own though. The moon was never split.
It’s not hard to find verses that show you wrong, or at lease attempting to cover up what the qu’ran says
2:1 Alif. Lam. Mim.
2:2 This is the Scripture whereof there is no doubt, a guidance unto those who ward off (evil).
2:3 Who believe in the Unseen, and establish worship, and spend of that We have bestowed upon them;
2:4 And who believe in that which is revealed unto thee (Muhammad) and that which was revealed before thee, and are certain of the Hereafter.
2:5 These depend on guidance from their Lord. These are the successful.
2:6 As for the Disbelievers, Whether thou warn them or thou warn them not it is all one for them; they believe not.
2:7 Allah hath sealed their hearing and their hearts, and on their eyes there is a covering. Theirs will be an awful doom.
2:8 And of mankind are some who say: We believe in Allah and the Last Day, when they believe not.
2:9 They think to beguile Allah and those who believe, and they beguile none save themselves; but they perceive not.
2:10 In their hearts is a disease, and Allah increaseth their disease. A painful doom is theirs because they lie.
2:11 And when it is said unto them: Make not mischief in the earth, they say: We are peacemakers only.
2:12 Are not they indeed the mischief-makers ? But they perceive not.
2:13 And when it is said unto them: believe as the people believe, they say: shall we believe as the foolish believe ? are not they indeed the foolish ? But they know not.
2:14 And when they fall in with those who believe, they say: We believe; but when they go apart to their devils they declare: Lo! we are with you; verily we did but mock.
2:15 Allah (Himself) doth mock them, leaving them to wander blindly on in their contumacy.
2:16 These are they who purchase error at the price of guidance, so their commerce doth not prosper, neither are they guided.
2:17 Their likeness is as the likeness of one who kindleth fire, and when it sheddeth its light around him Allah taketh away their light and leaveth them in darkness, where they cannot see,
2:18 Deaf, dumb and blind; and they return not.
2:19 Or like a rainstorm from the sky, wherein is darkness, thunder and the flash of lightning. They thrust their fingers in their ears by reason of the thunder-claps, for fear of death, Allah encompasseth the disbelievers (in His guidance, His omniscience and His omnipotence).
2:20 The lightning almost snatcheth away their sight from them. As often as it flasheth forth for them they walk therein, and when it darkeneth against them they stand still. If Allah willed, He could destroy their hearing and their sight. Lo! Allah is able to do all things.
2:21 O mankind! worship your Lord, Who hath created you and those before you, so that ye may ward off (evil).
2:22 Who hath appointed the earth a resting-place for you, and the sky a canopy; and causeth water to pour down from the sky, thereby producing fruits as food for you. And do not set up rivals to Allah when ye know (better).
2:23 And if ye are in doubt concerning that which We reveal unto Our slave (Muhammad), then produce a surah of the like thereof, and call your witness beside Allah if ye are truthful.
2:24 And if ye do it not – and ye can never do it – then guard yourselves against the Fire prepared for disbelievers, whose fuel is of men and stones.
And the rest is here: http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/2/index.htm#6 We can look at this “7 Allah hath sealed their hearing and their hearts, and on their eyes there is a covering. Theirs will be an awful doom.” And then look at this “7:41 Theirs will be a bed of hell, and over them coverings (of hell). Thus do We requite wrong-doers.” To see a rather pathetic god that intentionally sends people to hell for no action of their own.
Having rules for wars, as you acknowledge that humans have always had, is no proof for your nonsense being true. Just like it is not proof for Christianity being true.
stew, I do challenge you to watch this to hear about morality in relation to religion. It’s more about Chistianity than Islam, but the points still hold: https://www.skeptic.com/science-salon/phil-zuckerman-what-it-means-to-be-moral-why-religion-is-not-necessary-for-living-an-ethical-life/
The bottom line is that Mohammed justified killing and other forms of harming human beings because of a religious squabble over a piece of ground in Mecca.
Harming non-Muslims because of their religious beliefs was thus given sanction and continues to this day. Islam just calls it Jihad.
@ Erasmus
That’s right side with the people who are insulting God.
Anyways, I thought it had to do with being persecuted and kicked out of their homes but hey. Anyways using your logic Erasmus, what did Joshua(as) do to all those human beings because of a religious squabble over a piece of ground in Jerusalem?
@ clubschadenfreude
I’m sorry you you said its not obvious that standards are used by people? Please show me a society whether it is the US constitution, Acts of parliament or tribal laws in Afghanistan etc that does not have some kind of standard? IF this wasn’t the case it would be pure anarchy as I could come into your home, take your stuff, rape your wife and kill you with no consequences as I see no reason to say its wrong. ALL societies whether modern or tribal use some sort of standard for judgment. You’re entire argument is “Quran is bad muahh”. Cool, based on?
In regards to the rest of your emotional ramble (i.e. you being on your menses)
1.Your Whims
They change all the time and since I know athiest are basically the weird kids who used cut themselves in the bathroom,I know you will do this (hence why you have yet to show what you base your decision) Trust me you are a dime a dozen.
2. Your Claims
You said:
“Your god, per the bible, is described a murderous, vindictive, rather ignorant being that works with its supposed archenemy”
Now it appears you thought Paul was a Christian which I responded these don’t exist in Islam. You then said:
“the qu’ran is no better”
And tried to quote “violence in the Quran” to prove your initial argument. This was refuted by this coll thing called “reading” NOW you have moved your post to “no, no I didn’t say that” AND made another fallacy of “well illiterate tribesmen interpreted that way wah, wah, wah”
I do not CARE what other ignorant folk have said you and I are talking.
3. Fitra
Interesting that you claim to “know about it” and then completely get it wrong AND then continue on your emotional red herring about how you don’t need God to have morals. What do I need to watch it for when I already agree dumb@$$?
As for annotated skeptic this was made by another group of dumb@$$e$ who don’t even have basic reading comprehension in English and then quoted other dumb@$$e$ who didn’t know what they were talking about (they literally just copied Shamoun)
4. Baqarah
Yes this applies to people like you who have chosen to disbelieve no matter what is shown to you so God cruises you along with your choice. Don’t see the problem?
I’ll give a realistic example IF I refute your arguments against God and why you have chosen to be an atheist AND you agree woth everything I said will you become Muslim? Just need a yes or no?
He got refuted on Surah 9 and his only response was ‘well other Muslims disagree with you’. Since when is that a refutation???
Then nearly every point made by Dawkins can be thrown into the garbage bin by merely saying ‘you’re wrong cus other atheists disagree with you on those points so there!’.
If he is refering to not believing in God as “no action of their own” then yea. I don’t see a problem either.
I mean living your life as if for example you father doesn’t exist would be EXTREMELY disgusting. What do you think will happen if you do this to an INFINITE being that made you from scratch?
@ Atlas
Yes very true I wasn’t aware “so and so disagrees with you so your’re wrong here is a link to a thing I have never read ” is a refutation either.
Bit let’s give him a pass, my man’s new around and isn’t aware he’s gotta do better than that weak stuff.
“Anyways, I thought it had to do with being persecuted and kicked out of their homes but hey.”
But hey wasn’t Mohammed harassing the Meccans? And if they had stopped persecuting he would have allowed them to continue using the Kaaba for their worship? I don’t think so. And because they didn’t give up their claims to the Kaaba Mohammed declared war on them. A just war?
“But hey wasn’t Mohammed harassing the Meccans?”
that jesus harassing peaceful jews in the temple and then fucking up their torah mandated practices. can you show evidence muhammad was harrassing meccans ?
The money changers and others were doing something wrong no doubt.
They could have been charging too much and \ or they could have been too close to the temple itself and caused defilement.
The meccans allowed Mohammed to preach and pray at the Kaaba. In return Mohammed was plotting to make alliances with Medinan tribes so he could wage war against the Meccans. All for a pile of old stones. Blood for dust you could say.
@ Erasmus
1. You seem to have ignored the part about Joshua’s(as) alleged genocide for piece of land could you clarify that for every one?
2. You have absolutely no proof for what you said about Jesus(as) and the money lenders. All you have is they were going about their legal buisness and he flipped over their tables and hurt people.
The Jews allowed him to preach and pray at the Temple. In return because they didn’t want to follow him and didn’t (and still don’t) believe him to be the Messiah he attacked them which caused them to go to the rightful authoroties. Speaking of which using your logic he should be grateful that the the Romans allowed him to preach and pray at the Temple. In return, Jesus was then making alliances with the Zealots, Judean officials such as tax collectors, John’s(as) followers and the general Jewish population to wage war against the Sahedrin and the Romans. Blood for dust you could say indeed.
“they could have been too close to the temple itself and caused defilement”
if money exchange is “defilement” then sacrificing a pig or worshipping an idol in the temple would be the height of defilement. WRECKING the temple and PUTTING blemish on animals by whipping them would break torah law and would be a defilement. The jews say in reply “what sign can you show us for doing such thing?”
This was their pacifistic reply to jesus’ terrorism.
“The money changers and others were doing something wrong no doubt.”
. The money changers were low level functionaries who just exchanged roman coins for coins that could be used at the temple. The torah required that.
jesus BLAMES people for doing a job TORAH REQUIRES
jesus’ evil actions could have easily gotten hundreds of innocent jews slaughtered.
he is USING VIOLENCE against a people who would have GONE back doing the money exchange because torah requires that.
“They could have been charging too much and \ or they could have been too close to the temple itself and caused defilement.”
so you allow jesus to use terroristic violence against people who were TOLD WHAT to do? which law in torah allows a shut down of torah mandate especially at most busy time of the year?
“The meccans allowed Mohammed to preach and pray at the Kaaba.”
when they start persecuting him heavily they were allowing him to preach at the kaaba? but compare to jesus, he PERSECUTES a jewish people for DOING what GOD MANDATED. he USES VIOLENCE on people who were simply JUST WORKERS who were obeying orders .
” In return Mohammed was plotting to make alliances with Medinan tribes so he could wage war against the Meccans. All for a pile of old stones. Blood for dust you could say.”
“all for a pile of old stones”
notice how a crosstian starts thinking like an atheist when it comes to muhammad, but when we ask the athiests about jesus’ violence at the temple, they say :
In an age of slavery, widespread infanticide, massive human rights violations, etc., Jesus is most angry about a few people making money by exchanging currency in the Temple? That seems like a highly trivial matter for God on Earth to become so upset about.
now i want to you bring forth evidence that “muhammad plot alliances with tribes all for a pile of old stones” and THIS WAS THE ONLY REASON….
“notice how a crosstian starts thinking like an atheist when it comes to muhammad, but when we ask the athiests about jesus’ violence at the temple, they say :”
I am an atheist in relation to Allah and all other gods that men dream up.
“John 2:15
And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers’ money, and overthrew the tables
12 And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves,
Nobody was hurt. Why all your nonsensical talk about “terroristic violence”? Probably they should have carried on their business but outside the temple precincts.
“In an age of slavery, widespread infanticide, massive human rights violations, etc., Jesus is most angry about a few people making money by exchanging currency in the Temple? That seems like a highly trivial matter for God on Earth to become so upset about.”
The OT spoke against all these things. Jesus didn’t come to put a plaster on the wound but to cause healing at the source of all evil. In the human heart itself.
“now i want to you bring forth evidence that “muhammad plot alliances with tribes all for a pile of old stones” and THIS WAS THE ONLY REASON….”
Mohammed left Mecca after forming alliances with tribes in Medina who became Muslims. After this the Meccans tried to kill him because they knew he would not stop until he had taken over complete control of Mecca. Up to this point in time he had always had a protector until his uncle died.
He knew that he had to leave Mecca and build a power base in Medina which would be strong enough to wage war against the Meccans.
His first tactic was to attack the trade caravans of the Meccans. This was just the opening gambit.
Iggy says he disbelieves in the gods men dream up. Do you mean the mangods dreamt up by the Greeks, Hindus and Christians?
I didbelieve in these fantasy gods as well. Glad we agree Iggy. So, when will you be renouncing your mangod Iggy?
Oh and just for kicks, here is a lovely Bible verse of the day:
“You will overthrow every fortified city and every major town. You will cut down every good tree, stop up all the springs, and ruin every good field with stones.” 2 Kings 3
why are christians such stinking fukin hypocrites? yhwh in the torah tells the jews to LAND grab and DESTROY pagan INFRASTRUCTURE . what standard do you have to judge muhammad? the land is just “pile of old stones”
0. first lets inform readers about jesus’ violent purpose . matthew 10:34-37
1. how do you move about thousands of animals ???? With the pagan zeal and anger your pagan god had, how did he move about those hundreds of animals? if no violence was used , why didnt the religious jews grab him /stone him to death ?they would not easily give up their income and torah mandate because a terrorist vandal demanded it? they would allow this guy to break laws from their own torah? if they saw the vandalism he did, there would be like minded jews who would have vandalised jesus . this would be busiest time in preparation for their holy days. he makes up a whip , the material would already be available. since in jesus’ mind it was the humans doing the desecration , what purpose was their in driving out animals ?
Psalm 69 “let thy BURNING anger OVERTAKE them….”
acts 6.13 -14 Says jesus will destroy the temple
it doesnt matter if it is “false accusation”
We have seen that jesus has violent purpose and he is not come to BRING peace but a sword ….so acts could be preserving an authentic tradition about jesus violence against the temple.
if i were to come into erASSMus’ church and TRASHED everything there and drive out the congregation using a whip because i did not like the idea of selling and buying , i should not be called a vandal , but a man of love and peace.
when john tells his READERS that jesus MADE a whip, his readers would OBVIOUDLY HAVE UNDERSTOOD how jesus Accomplished the DRIVING OUT OF THE BUYERS-SELLERS-ANIMALS
they would know what DAMAGE WHIPS did
jesus was fulfilling yhwhs violence in psalm 69
“The OT spoke against all these things. ”
where does the ot allow one to CARRY out the VANDALISM jesus did in a high holy place? his sacrilegious act would have DISGUSTED those poor PILGRIMS who came to BUY an animal
think about it. they came from long distances , went to purchase an ANIMAL only to find out they would be driven out by a whip. this WOULD BE against torah.
jesus’ oppression against these people doing business in PEACEFUL way should disgust you.
“Jesus didn’t come to put a plaster on the wound but to cause healing at the source of all evil. ”
yes, your pagan religion MIXES love and violence.
“n the human heart itself.”
You dont need to trash their property arsehole. Neither do you need to cause disruption in holy place.
“Mohammed left Mecca after forming alliances with tribes in Medina who became Muslims. ”
whats the problem?
“fter this the Meccans tried to kill him because they knew he would not stop until he had taken over complete control of Mecca. ”
first paste the narration, BITCH
then prove your “they knew he would nkt stop until he had taken over complete control….
From a torah perspective what is wrong with CLEANING a place of idolatry?
“Up to this point in time he had always had a protector until his uncle died.
He knew that he had to leave Mecca and build a power base in Medina which would be strong enough to wage war against the Meccans.”
First post the narration, BITCH and tell me what is wrong with creating a “power base”
And “waging war” from a torah perspective.
“I am an atheist in relation to Allah and all other gods that men dream up.”
god the f
One…
god the son
two…
and god the h
three.
how come u like imaging three triplets ?
@ Erasmus
“I am an atheist in relation to Allah and all other gods that men dream up.”
Oh really? So I guess you don’t believe in the one Jesus(as) worshipped:
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?t=kjv&strongs=h426
If you reject gods people dream up then there is no way you would be worshipping Jesus(as) God’s creation.
Next, you seem to have selective memory so allow me to repost:
1. You seem to have ignored the part about Joshua’s(as) alleged genocide for a piece of land could you clarify that for everyone?
2. You have absolutely no proof for what you said about Jesus(as) and the money lenders. All you have is they were going about their legal business and he flipped over their tables and hurt people.
The Jews allowed him to preach and pray at the Temple. In return, because they didn’t want to follow him and didn’t (and still don’t) believe him to be the Messiah he attacked them which caused them to go to the rightful authorities. Speaking of which using your logic he should be grateful that the Romans allowed him to preach and pray at the Temple. In return, Jesus was then making alliances with the Zealots, Judean officials such as tax collectors, John’s(as) followers and the general Jewish population to wage war against the Sanhedrin and the Romans. Blood for dust you could say indeed.
“Probably they should have carried on their business but outside the temple precincts.”
Why? in what way will currency exchange and selling animal (all which was required by yhwh) make problem ?
the exchange is required to remember that god does not like images. The selling of animals is to remember what god required. These exchanges only make one remember their god , not monetary gain.
your god ruined peaceful business in REMEMBRANCE of yhwh because he did not like the idea of doing TORAH MANDATED business. if anything, ur god has a problem with precepts of yhwh.
“In an age of slavery, widespread infanticide, massive human rights violations, etc., Jesus is most angry about a few people making money by exchanging currency in the Temple? That seems like a highly trivial matter for God on Earth to become so upset about.”
“The OT spoke against all these things. ”
jesus was busy getting angry with torah mandate.
“Jesus didn’t come to put a plaster on the wound but to cause healing at the source of all evil. ”
how is exchanging money evil ? Plus, why attack a torah MANDATED practice ? Plus, why attack the workers? They were working for their bosses.
“In the human heart itself”
how does physically attacking people and breaking torah mandate change “human heart” ?
how does POINTLESS violence gain? They would go back doing the exchanges because torah mandated it. they would go back selling animals because torah mandated it.
he is using POINTLESS oppression on poor people . vandalising property, using a whip to drive out people.
again this would be a time of the year which would be busy. Romans would be preparing to hack these poor people if their is any disturbance. jesus’ terroristic attack on temple would have caused the deaths of hundreds of innocent buyers and sellers. you should be ashamed of jesus’ acts which go against the torah. remember if jesus thought it was good to vandalise then similar minded jews would have thought it good enough to vandalise him.