Islam, Jack Chick and the Battle for Souls – “Your Best Life”

Islam, Jack Chick and the Battle for Souls – Response to the Chick Tract “Your Best Life” (Adapted for Muslims)

Originally posted on the Quran and Bible Blog

بِسْمِ اللهِ الرَّحْمٰنِ الرَّحِيْم

And those who, when they commit an immorality or wrong themselves [by transgression], remember Allah and seek forgiveness for their sins – and who can forgive sins except Allah? – and [who] do not persist in what they have done while they know.

–  The Quran, Surah Al-Imran, 3:135

This article is a continuation of the series “Islam, Jack Chick and the Battle for Souls”.  We will now discuss the tract titled “Your Best Life”.[1]

“Your Best Life” – The Plot

            The tract begins by showing a man wearing traditional Arab clothing with vast riches, complete with a mansion, luxury car and a maid.  Unfortunately, the Arab man’s life of luxury ends abruptly, as the cold hand of death (literally depicted as a skeleton in a black robe with a scythe…happy Halloween everyone!) comes to take the man’s soul.  Chick uses this scene to remind everyone that there is one thing in common to all people, whether the “righteous” or the “wicked”, which of course is death.[2]

            At the man’s funeral, the imam declares that “he was a good man”.  But Chick quotes a verse from Isaiah (64:6) to say that no one is “good” but rather that everyone is “unclean”.[3]  While in the grave, the man is resurrected after a voice declares for him to “arise”. 

            Joyously, the man looks forward to his resurrection.  He realizes his “life is finished” and that he will get to “see the blessed Prophet [Muhammad]”.  He declares that his deeds will be “weighed” and that his “good will outweigh” the bad.  At this point, an angel takes the man to face his judgement.  The man is hopeful that he will be able to “cross over the bridge to Muhammad”, but the angel warns that:

“[i]t will not be what you expect.”

            While waiting for his turn, the man is still hopeful that Allah (Glorified and Exalted be He) will “accept” him because he had “fasted and prayed, given to charity…” and even made the pilgrimage to Mecca.  To this the angel simply says that (emphasis in the original) “everything has been recorded”.  When his turn comes, the man sees a great multitude of people standing before God, as stated in Revelation 20:12.[4]  As he stands before God, the command is given to “review his life”, and we begin seeing different parts of the man’s life on a television screen of sorts.

            It begins with his infancy, and then abruptly moves to his teenage years.  On one particular day, the teenager was regaling his friends with a “dirty story”.  The embarrassing incident causes the man to gasp and beg that the incident not be replayed at his judgement.[5]  But this is just the beginning.  The scene skips to another incident, where the man was coveting his friend’s wife, who was very beautiful.[6]  The man’s excuse for this behavior, though, is frankly bizarre.  He states that she was beautiful, but he thought that “no one” saw him![7] 

            The man also points out that he was a “good man”.  And indeed, we see images of him playing with his son, visiting the sick, giving charity to the poor, and praying in the mosque.  But again, Chick quoted Isaiah 64:6 to suggest that no one is really “good” but rather “impure”.

            Finally, God responds to the man.  He says:

“[t]hat is not what I required.  Your friend told you about Me.”[8]

The television screen then shows how a Christian man, the Muslim man’s “only Christian friend”, tried to convert him to Christianity.  The Christian had said that only God can make mankind attain perfection.  In other words, man’s own actions cannot make man perfect.[9] 

            The Muslim man counters that he has performed the Hajj (pilgrimage to Mecca) and his “past sins are forgiven”.  To this, the Christian retorts that, according to the book of Ezekiel, the one who sins is the one who dies (Ezekiel 18:4, 20).[10]  He then asks the Muslim man whether he has sinned since performing the Hajj, to which the Muslim man admits that he has.  The Christian man then concludes that “you shall die”.  But apparently realizing the hidden contradiction, the Christian says that dying in this life is not enough, and that we need “someone to die in our place”.[11]  That someone was Jesus, who was allegedly “God” and “came among us and lived as the perfect man”.[12]  The Christian also regales the Muslim with the rest of the story, as told in other Chick tracts.  He claims that Jesus “took our punishment by dying on the cross” and then resurrected “3 days later”, which somehow proves that “he is God Almighty” and that only he “will forgive all who trust in [h]im”.

            But none of this convinces the Muslim, who begins to think that his buddy “is crazy”.  The Muslim flat out rejects the Christian’s message and declares (rather bizarrely for a Muslim):

“I don’t need the prophet Jesus.  I will take the way of Islam!”[13]

As the stroll down memory lane ends, the Muslim man realizes that he made a huge mistake and laments that his “pride destroyed” him.  And when “God” orders the “book of life” to be opened, the Muslim man’s name does not appear (duh!), which means that he will be consigned to hell.  God then declares, in typical Chick fashion:

“[d]epart from me ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.”

As he is thrown into the lake of fire, the Muslim man exclaims:

“I should have believed in Jesus!”

            But then the tract shows the other possibility.  In this version, instead of rejecting his Christian friend’s message, the Muslim man repents and accepts Jesus as his “Savior”.  After converting to Christianity, he tries to show others the way, including his family and friends and the sick.  And when the cold hand of death touches him, he is welcomed in the afterlife by God, who says:

“[w]ell done, thou good and faithful servant…enter thou into the joy of thy lord.”

Analysis of “Your Best Life”

            By now, we should be used to the fact that Chick tracts are poorly thought-out propaganda works which reasonable people will not find convincing.  So, let’s just get into tearing this particular tract apart, as we have done with others already. 

            The first thing that sticks out is how the tract was described by Chick himself.  In the “Description”, Chick wrote:

“[t]he most popular Chick tract, This Was Your Life, adapted for Muslims, not just in the Middle East, but also Europe and the Americas.”

And yet as soon as the tract begins, we see the typical Chick caricature of Muslims, which is an Arab man!  In this case, the man is filthy rich, which certainly would not apply to the average Muslim or any average person from any religious background for that matter.  So how exactly is this tract “adapted for Muslims” the world over? From the get-go, this tract is doomed to fail!

Chick - your best life - rich arab man.gif

            Chick then alluded to the “common destiny” of all mankind, which is death (duh!).  He quoted Ecclesiastes 9:2, which states:

“[a]ll things come alike to all: there is one event to the righteous, and to the wicked; to the good and to the clean, and to the unclean; to him that sacrificeth, and to him that sacrificeth not: as is the good, so is the sinner; and he that sweareth, as he that feareth an oath.”

This “common destiny” being death is stated in verse 3:

“[t]his is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead.”

            But besides this resignation, Ecclesiastes 9 has other interesting observations on life and death.  For example, it bizarrely refers to this life as “meaningless” (verse 9).  It also states that a person should eat his food and drink his wine with “gladness” and “a joyful heart”, because “God has already approved what you do”.  This seems to fly in the face of the Christian concept of original sin, as well as the basic concept of the afterlife. In fact, the author of Ecclesiastes explicitly states that it is not known what will happen to the righteous. He states that:

“…the righteous and the wise and what they do are in God’s hands, but no one knows whether love or hate awaits them.”[14]

            It is also interesting that Chick quoted the book of Proverbs to criticize the wealthy Arab man, yet quoted Ecclesiastes to remind his readers that death comes to all, whether rich or poor. The irony of this is that the author of Ecclesiastes (“Qoheleth”) actually concluded that since death will come to all, whether rich or poor, righteous or wicked, the best thing to do is to enjoy life with the gifts that God has given to each person.  This is stated in chapter 5, verse 19:

“…when God gives someone wealth and possessions, and the ability to enjoy them, to accept their lot and be happy in their toil—this is a gift of God.”

In fact, in the very next chapter (6:2), the author referred to the “evil” that he had seen when someone who had been given “wealth, possessions and honor” by God was unable to “enjoy them” because God had not permitted it. Instead, “strangers” ended up enjoying the gifts that God had given to that person.

            Continuing with the story, we find ourselves at the Arab man’s funeral, where the imam described him as “a good man”, but Chick countered this assessment with Isaiah 64:6, which states:

“But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.”

But as was Chick’s habit, he took this verse completely out of context to anachronistically force the Christian concept of “original sin” into the text. Verse 5 shows the correct context:

“Thou meetest him that rejoiceth and worketh righteousness, those that remember thee in thy ways: behold, thou art wroth; for we have sinned: in those is continuance, and we shall be saved.”

So, it was because of committing sins that people became “unclean”. In other words, “righteousness” was replaced by wickedness. This does not mean that there were no “righteousness” people. As stated in Isaiah 1:21:

“How is the faithful city become an harlot! it was full of judgment; righteousness lodged in it; but now murderers.”

In addition, Isaiah 3:10-11 states that the “righteous” and the “wicked” shall each receive what they have earned:

“Say ye to the righteous, that it shall be well with him: for they shall eat the fruit of their doings. Woe unto the wicked! it shall be ill with him: for the reward of his hands shall be given him.”

Why was such a differentiation made if, as Chick suggested, all people are “unclean” in the first place?

            Moving on, the Arab man was inevitably made to resurrect from the grave. Chick quoted Daniel 12:2 in this regard:

“And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.”

But, as usual, there is a problem. Daniel 12, when read in its historical context, is a false prophecy. When read in context with chapter 11, it becomes clear that Daniel 12:2 is not referring to a general resurrection of the dead, but rather to a specific event that should have happened more than 2,000 years ago. As we discussed in the article The Book of Daniel: A Critical Examination, chapter 11 provides:

“…a detailed chronology of events, which have been conclusively linked with actual events during the period of Seleucid domination of Palestine.”[15]

Since allusions to historical events during the Seleucid domination of Palestine are clearly shown in the text (e.g., Daniel 11:6-7 refers to the murder of Berenice, the daughter of Ptolemy II [the “king of the south”]), it follows that the event of the resurrection described in Daniel 12 should have occurred in that time (i.e., the 2nd-century BCE).

            Indeed, the death of the “king of the north” in Daniel 11:45 was also a false prophecy. This king was none other than Antiochus IV, the infamous tyrant who erected the “abomination that causes desolation” (a statue of Zeus) in the temple of Jerusalem. While Daniel 11 prophesies that Antiochus would die as a result of his military activities, the reality is that he died as a result of an illness in Persia. He did not die during battle (Daniel 11:44-45).

            Regardless, Daniel 12 prophesies that after the death of Antiochus, the archangel Michael would arise, and the dead would be resurrected. The text even states “[a]nd at that time” (Daniel 12:1), so there is no doubt that the resurrection of the dead should have occurred sometime after the death of Antiochus. In short, Daniel 12 is not referring to a general resurrection of the dead in the future but an event in the past and in a very specific historical context that never happened.[16] 

            In any case, the Arab man was taken by an angel for judgement. He was confident and happy that his “good will outweigh my bad” and that he will “cross over the bridge to Muhammad”. These are promises made to faithful Muslims in the Islamic sources. Of course, since this is a Chick tract, we know that the poor Muslim man was in for a horrible surprise.

            When his turn arrived, his life was “reviewed”. All things were revealed, from his time as an infant, to his teenage years and a specific incident where he told a “dirty story” to his friends, and a time when he was attracted to his friend’s wife. Ironically, the Muslim man, who seemed to have followed Islam and was aware of the teachings regarding judgement day, somehow tried to excuse his impure thoughts about his friend’s wife by saying:

“[b]ut no one saw me!”

But being a faithful Muslim, he would know that Allah (Glorified and Exalted be He) would have seen him. No faithful Muslim would ever deny that. But again, this IS a Chick tract, so plot holes are par for the course!

            Chick also appealed yet again to Ecclesiastes, quoting chapter 12, verse 14:

“For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.”

But there is a problem here as well (hey, it’s the Bible; get used to it). While Chick’s precious “King James” Bible contains no note, it is a consensus among scholars that the last part of chapter 12 was not written by the same author (Qoheleth) as the previous chapters but by a different author. Christian sources tend to assume that the second author was a “disciple” of Qoheleth. For example, the Catholic NABRE translation has a footnote for verse 9 which states:

“[a] disciple briefly describes and praises the master’s skill and reputation as a sage.”[17]

Similarly, in a footnote for verses 13-14, it states that:

“[a]lthough the epilogue has been interpreted as a criticism of the book’s author, it is really a summary that betrays the unruffled spirit of later sages, who were not shocked by Qoheleth’s statements.”

Regardless of who the real author was or what his intent was (whether criticism of Qoheleth or his defense), it is not a matter of debate that this author was not the same as the one who wrote most of the book.

            But the real irony in Chick’s appeal to Ecclesiastes 12:14 is how he tried to again ignore the proper context. When read in context, the entire premise of Chick’s tract falls apart! The previous verse, verse 13, contains a clear reminder to keep God’s “commandments”:

“Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.”

And this is exactly what the Arab man did! Certainly, he did sin on occasion, but as stated in Ecclesiastes 7:20 (emphasis ours):

“…there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.”

A man could be “just” yet still occasionally commit sins. What matters is whether that man repented of his sins and returned to God. This concept of repentance is demonstrated in 1 Kings 8:50:

“And forgive thy people that have sinned against thee, and all their transgressions wherein they have transgressed against thee, and give them compassion…”

This concept of God’s compassion and forgiveness is also found in the teachings of Islam:

“And those who, when they commit an immorality or wrong themselves [by transgression], remember Allah and seek forgiveness for their sins – and who can forgive sins except Allah? – and [who] do not persist in what they have done while they know.”[18]

“And [there are] others who have acknowledged their sins. They had mixed a righteous deed with another that was bad. Perhaps Allah will turn to them in forgiveness. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.”[19]

“Say, “O My servants who have transgressed against themselves [by sinning], do not despair of the mercy of Allah. Indeed, Allah forgives all sins. Indeed, it is He who is the Forgiving, the Merciful.””[20]

“Those who avoid the major sins and immoralities, only [committing] slight ones. Indeed, your Lord is vast in forgiveness. He was most knowing of you when He produced you from the earth and when you were fetuses in the wombs of your mothers. So do not claim yourselves to be pure; He is most knowing of who fears Him.”[21]

            The man’s good deeds were also shown. He was a good father. He visited the sick. He helped the poor. He prayed to God. But according to Chick, this was not what God “required”, and he again quoted Isaiah 64:6 to prove his point. But as shown above, this verse does not teach the Christian concept of original sin or the Pauline idea that no man is righteous.

            Chick’s comic-book “God” responded to the Arab man’s appeals to his good deeds by reminding him of how a Christian friend had told him about God. According to the Christian, since even after performing the Hajj and Umrah, the man had sinned, he was still going to “die”. That was the price of sin. Chick quoted Ezekiel 18:4, 20 to support this claim, which is ironic because these verses refute the Christian concept of original sin. In fact, Ezekiel 18 clearly differentiates between those who are “just” and those who are “sinners”, something Chick neglected to mention:

“But if a man be just, and do that which is lawful and right,

And hath not eaten upon the mountains, neither hath lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, neither hath defiled his neighbour’s wife, neither hath come near to a menstruous woman,

And hath not oppressed any, but hath restored to the debtor his pledge, hath spoiled none by violence, hath given his bread to the hungry, and hath covered the naked with a garment;

He that hath not given forth upon usury, neither hath taken any increase, that hath withdrawn his hand from iniquity, hath executed true judgment between man and man,

Hath walked in my statutes, and hath kept my judgments, to deal truly; he is just, he shall surely live, saith the Lord God.”[22]

Moreover, in verse 21, God declares that the wicked man who “turns from all his sins” and keeps the “statutes” and does all things that are “lawful and right” will “surely live”. This directly contradicts the concept of original sin!

            The Christian man then claimed that humans needed someone to die in their place. That someone was Jesus (peace be upon him), who “lived as the perfect man”. There are a few problems with this view:

  1. It contradicts Ezekiel 18, which states that the one who sins is the one who dies. It does not say anything about a substitutionary death.
  2. Even if Jesus “died” for the sins of humanity, that does not change the fact that we still…die. So, what was the point of “dying” to pay for our sins (the price for which is death), and yet we die anyway? Furthermore, in the afterlife, there is either eternal salvation or eternal damnation. There is no death. But if we die as a result of our sins, then it should end there and there should be no punishment in the afterlife.
  3. It is a subjective opinion that Jesus “lived as the perfect man”. We can find a few instances in the New Testament where Jesus’ behavior seems less than “perfect”. He seems to have sinned on a few occasions:
    • Destruction of the property of others, as in the incident of the pigs and the demons (Matthew 8:28-34).
    • Lying to his “brethren” that he would not go to the “feast of tabernacles”, but then going in “secret” after they had departed (John 7:1-10).

Then, the Christian talked about how Jesus “is God Almighty” because he supposedly “rose from the dead”. This too is a problematic and logically-flawed argument since the New Testament itself states that Jesus did not rise from the dead of his own accord. Acts 2:32 states:

“This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.”[23]

So, if Jesus rose from the dead (an event which cannot be proven), it was not by his own power but by that of God. Thus, using the Christian’s own logic, Jesus could not be God!

            Not surprisingly, the Arab man was not persuaded by the Christian’s arguments. But it’s what he said in response that shows the absurdity of Chick’s arguments against Islam. The man said that he didn’t need “the prophet Jesus” and would instead “take the way of Islam”. Yet, a faithful Muslim would never say of the prophet Jesus (peace be upon him) that he doesn’t “need him”. As Muslims, we respect and believe in all the prophets. While it is true that the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) is the leader of the prophets and that the Quran replaces all previous revelation, that does not mean we can simply cast the previous prophets aside. Of course, Muslims do not believe the myths that Christians have applied to Jesus’ life and teachings. So, we rightfully reject the “false” Jesus promoted by Christianity.

            Once the stroll down memory lane ended, the “book of life” was opened and the Arab man’s name was not found written in it. Thus, “God” spoke the dreaded words from Matthew 25:41 that Chick loved to misquote:

“Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire…”

As we have noted in previous articles, this verse is quoted out of context. The reality is that it serves to refute Chick’s brand of Christianity. In Matthew 25, Jesus (peace be upon him) was talking about the judgement of the righteous (the “sheep”) and the sinners (the “goats”).  But this distinction was not based on which religion people followed or if they believed that the Messiah “died” for their sins, but rather if they fed and clothed the poor, showed hospitality to strangers, and cared for the sick.  The “righteous” would be rewarded for being charitable, whereas the sinners would be punished for neglecting their charitable duties.

            So, by the standards set in Matthew 25, the Arab man should have been allowed to enter Paradise, since the review of his life showed that he did do all the things he needed to do. Thus, what should been have said to him was:

“Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world…”[24]

In short, Chick’s comic book turned Jesus into a liar who went back on his word!

            In the alternate version, the Arab man believed in Jesus and became a Christian. Chick once again resorted to quoting Isaiah out of context, this time Isaiah 1:18:

“Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.”

Contrary to Chick’s implications, this verse does not prove that accepting Jesus would wash away one’s sins. When we read the verse in context, this is made clear:

“Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil; Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow. Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land…”[25]

As we can see, the context shows that the Israelites were being advised to give up their sinful behavior and to follow God’s laws. Doing so would wash away their previous sins. It was not a command to believe in a dying and rising Messiah for the remission of sins. This is also what Islam teaches.

Conclusion

                This concludes yet another refutation of the deceitful and inaccurate comic books known as“Chick tracts”. In “Your Best Life”, adapted for Muslims, we have seen more examples of the late Jack Chick’s ignorant propaganda that would only fool the uneducated and gullible. Chick tracts may get read, but only the foolish would believe them or be influenced by them to convert to Christianity.

And Allah (Glorified and Exalted be He) knows best! 


[1] http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/1086/1086_01.asp

[2] Chick quoted Ecclesiastes 9:2, which is part of an interesting passage on the common destiny awaiting all people.  We will discuss this in the analysis section.

[3] As was typical of Chick, he tried to misquote the Tanakh in order to confirm the Christian doctrine of “original sin” and the idea that mankind is born “wicked”.  This concept completely contradicts what the Tanakh actually says, and the book of Isaiah is no different, as we shall see.

[4] Ironically, here too, the Bible itself exposes Chick’s selective quotes as well as the internal contradictions in the Christian religion. 

[5] Chick quotes Ecclesiastes 11:9, which states that God will judge a person for all things he has done.  But Chick neglected to mention the next chapter of Ecclesiastes, which clarifies the matter, as we will see.

[6] Here, Chick indeed quoted the next chapter of Ecclesiastes, but as usual, he skipped a very important part, which completely destroys the entire premise of the tract!

[7] This is ironic given that he was obviously a religious man who believed that Allah (Glorified and Exalted be He) was watching him.  And thus begin the typical plot holes one usually finds in these abhorrent and poorly-written Chick tracts!

[8] This statement from “God” is ironic, simply because it actually contradicts what Jesus (peace be upon him) allegedly taught in the gospels. 

[9] But since when was “perfection” the requirement for salvation?  Does the Bible actually say this?  The answer is no, as we will see.

[10] It is ironic that Chick even appealed to this verse, since it completely demolishes the concept of “original sin”.

[11] This contradiction is clearly evident, both in the fact that dying because we sinned should serve as the “punishment” for those sins, and also that even if “someone” dies for us, we still end up dying.  We will discuss this conundrum in more detail later.

[12] Of course, what it means to be the “perfect man” is subjective.  What is the standard for perfection?  If it is the myth that the Biblical Jesus lived a “sinless” life, then we are all doomed because the Christian “God” failed to live up to his own standards.  This will be demonstrated in the analysis.

[13] Of course, any real Muslim would know that believing in the prophet Jesus (peace be upon him), as well as all the prophets, is a required tenet of Islam.  One cannot be a Muslim and not believe that Jesus was a prophet.  Chick’s straw man is based on the assumption that the “Jesus” that he believes in is the historical Jesus, but there is no basis for this claim. 

[14] Ecclesiastes 9:1.

[15] https://quranandbibleblog.wordpress.com/2016/09/16/the-book-of-daniel/#_ednref157

[16] Of course, that the dead will be resurrected to face judgement is explicitly stated in the New Testament, and of course the Quran as well. But Chick erroneously referred to Daniel 12:2 while not realizing its proper context.

[17] http://www.usccb.org/bible/ecclesiastes/12#25012009-1

[18] Surah Al-Imran, 3:135 (Saheeh International translation).

[19] Surah At-Tawba, 9:102.

[20] Surah Az-Zumar, 39:53.

[21] Surah An-Najm, 53:102.

[22] Ezekiel 18:5-9.

[23] See also Romans 6:4 and Galatians 1:1.

Christians may point to John 2:19, which states:

“Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.”

However, this does not solve the problem as John 10:18 states that whatever authority Jesus had was given to him by the “Father”:

“No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.”

As a side note, notice the contradiction between John 10:18, where Jesus is made to look confident and willingly giving up his life, to Luke 22:41-44, where Jesus is seeking a way out of the predicament he was in:

“And he was withdrawn from them about a stone’s cast, and kneeled down, and prayed,

Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.

And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him.

And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.”

[24] Matthew 25:34.

[25] Isaiah 1:16-19.

 



Categories: Anti-Islam, Bible, Christianity, God, Islam, Jesus, Qur'an

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52 replies

  1. @ QB

    Another point worth noting if “the wages of sin is death” Jesus(as) still died. So by definition he sinned regardless of him “resurrecting” as death still claimed him according to Chick’s fan fiction. Also what about others who were resurrected do we bow down and they pay the price as well? Very strange…

    Liked by 1 person

  2. Islam is self contradictory.

    Both forgiveness and works-weighing cannot be true. If one is forgiven the weighing of works makes no sense.

    “Moreover, in verse 21, God declares that the wicked man who “turns from all his sins” and keeps the “statutes” and does all things that are “lawful and right” will “surely live”. This directly contradicts the concept of original sin!”

    Why? The context is not eternal life but surviving the judgement, and remaining under the blessing of God.

    “So, by the standards set in Matthew 25, the Arab man should have been allowed to enter Paradise, since the review of his life showed that he did do all the things he needed to do. Thus, what should been have said to him was:”

    In Matthew the parable of the talents shows that we need gifts from God to be pleasing to him. We first need to be given talents from God to do good works pleasing to him.

    “The “righteous” would be rewarded for being charitable, whereas the sinners would be punished for neglecting their charitable duties.”

    This parable shows that Muslims cannot be saved because they are the ones who are causing the body of Christ to suffer as described in Matthew 25. The sheep are the ones who react to this suffering to ameliorate it.

    “As we can see, the context shows that the Israelites were being advised to give up their sinful behavior and to follow God’s laws. Doing so would wash away their previous sins. It was not a command to believe in a dying and rising Messiah for the remission of sins. This is also what Islam teaches.”

    But you slyly, which we are used to by now, left out the context which shows that only a temporal promise is attached:

    “If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land…”

    Like

    • @ Erasmus

      There’s no contradiction to several points:

      1. Any good deed without faith or intent only for God is rejected.

      2. One’s deeds do not get them into heaven and there are explicit hadith on this.

      3. One does good because they have faith (for example in the Lord’s promise of reward or punishment.) By doing more good they increase in more faith which causes them to do more good and so on and so forth.

      4. Where the weighing of deeds vomes into play is God establishing balance between mercy and justice without the need of a partner in the manner and also shiw the manifestation of the person’s faith. I’ll give a practical example, according to Christianity Jesus(as) takes on the sin of other well what happens if one Christian wrongs another how is justive then established? God on the Day of Judgment judges(who knew) between them and adjusts scales accordingly.

      5. Inherit the land/earth is a double entendre. It means the righteous are given authority in this life and will inherit Heaven in the next. (This was Adam’s(as) original spot so since we are his children its our inheritance)

      6. The only people causing the “body of Christ” to suffer are its false doctrines. Us simply pointing them out is not wrong.

      Like

    • ” If one is forgiven the weighing of works makes no sense.”

      Sahih International: And the weighing [of deeds] that Day will be the truth. So those whose scales are heavy – it is they who will be the successful.

      Sahih International: And those whose scales are light – they are the ones who will lose themselves for what injustice they were doing toward Our verses.

      define “forgiveness”
      define “weighing of works”

      Like

    • ErASmus, since you are a menstrual rag ,then why is it just for your god to put u in heaven? how many sins did you do yesterday erassmus? how many menstrual rags did you give to “god the father”
      “god the son”
      “god the ghost” ?

      for the sins ? your “faith” will shield your menstrual offerings ? how is god JUST for allowing that and THEN entering u in “holy heaven” ?

      Since you are a DISEASED spiritual trash and give offerings of menstrual rags, why is it JUST for god to put u in heaven?

      since u are a sinner, continue to sin and continue to offer menstrual rags, how is it just for your god to enter menstrual rag in heaven?

      Like

    • “Why? The context is not eternal life but surviving the judgement, and remaining under the blessing of God.”

      The context shows that there are people who are righteous, which directly contradicts the false apostle Paul. The concept of “original sin” declares that all men are tainted by sin and thus all are condemned. Ezekiel 18 contradicts this. A “wicked” man who turns from his wickedness will “live”. Verse 27 even says that his “soul” will live:

      “Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.”

      “In Matthew the parable of the talents shows that we need gifts from God to be pleasing to him. We first need to be given talents from God to do good works pleasing to him.”

      How is this even irrelevant and how does this refute the fact that the parable of the sheeps and goats says that performing charitable acts will lead to salvation?

      “This parable shows that Muslims cannot be saved because they are the ones who are causing the body of Christ to suffer as described in Matthew 25. The sheep are the ones who react to this suffering to ameliorate it.”

      LOL where does the text say anything about Jesus’ suffering, dummy? Why do you always add your own twist to your scripture when it becomes inconvenient for you? The parable simply says that Jesus was with the poor and sick. It’s called a “parable” for a reason. It’s meant to be taken metaphorically. In any case, the point is that faith in the “death and resurrection” of Jesus is not required for salvation. The parable of the sheep and goats makes this amply clear.

      “But you slyly, which we are used to by now, left out the context which shows that only a temporal promise is attached:”

      LOL,and your point is? Temporal or not, Isaiah 1 shows that achieving righteousness is possible by following the law and not some weird belief in a dying and resurrecting mangod.

      Liked by 3 people

  3. “LOL,and your point is? Temporal or not, Isaiah 1 shows that achieving righteousness is possible by following the law ”

    Until you sin and then you die in your iniquity:

    Ezekiel 18 v 26:

    When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.

    “How is this even irrelevant and how does this refute the fact that the parable of the sheeps and goats says that performing charitable acts will lead to salvation?”

    So a muslim tells me when the words of Jesus are relevant and when they are not? Worth a try I guess.

    The parable of the talents shows that salvation flows from grace and the works follow. Grace comes first. This grace, represented by the talents, comes from Jesus.

    The goats, aptly as it turns out, are just arguing like you are. That they did good works. But that did not stop them from being sent to hell.

    And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

    Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

    So as I said it is not possible for Muslims to be saved as they are not ameliorating the suffering of Jesus brethen, they are causing it.

    Like

    • “When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.”

      AND dying as non repentant sinner.

      “And dieth in them”

      when the text says “righteousness” the author already knows that the “righteous person” is already a sinner even prior to him committing iniquity.

      when god gave his ritual book to the jews, he knew their were righteous sinners among them

      Like

  4. There is nothing in Ezekiel 18 that teaches that an intermittent and temporary righteousness merits eternal life.

    If this is the case why didn’t Moses teach this and command the people to sin and repent as often as they wanted?

    According to you the more people sin the more they will repent and the more righteous they will be.

    Like

    • What do you see in the bible except sin repentance sin repentance and useless sacrifices which did not change the jews that even the later prophets said “these bloody sacrices not working change your behaviour”

      your bible either tells u to hide behind repentance or an animal which is sent off into the wilderness.

      i mean , how many times did they send off the animal into wilderness until they realised that it was a useless act ?

      Like

  5. “There is nothing in Ezekiel 18 that teaches that an intermittent and temporary righteousness merits eternal life.”

    yes there is. if sin brings death, then repentance brings life. if repentance brings life then it means it would lead one to God.There is no idea of “you are born doomed in sin”

    “If this is the case why didn’t Moses teach this and command the people to sin and repent as often as they wanted?”

    30 On the next day Moses said to the people, “You have sinned a great sin. But now I will go up to the Lord; perhaps I can make atonement for your sin.” 31 So Moses returned to the Lord and said, “Alas, this people has sinned a great sin; they have made for themselves gods of gold. 32 But now, if you will only forgive their sin—but if not, blot me out of the book that you have written.” 33 But the Lord said to Moses, “Whoever has sinned against me I will blot out of my book. 34 But now go, lead the people to the place about which I have spoken to you; see, my angel shall go in front of you. Nevertheless, when the day comes for punishment, I will punish them for their sin.”

    35 Then the Lord sent a plague on the people, because they made the calf—the one that Aaron made.

    but why wasnt moses blotted out? Didnt he do a little sin like stealing a chocholate bar?

    Why was moses’ mediation strong enough to keep the people alive ?

    Quote:

    The Lord, the Lord,
    a God merciful and gracious,
    slow to anger,
    and abounding in steadfast love and faithfulness,
    7 keeping steadfast love for the thousandth generation,[b]
    forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin,
    yet by no means clearing the guilty,
    but visiting the iniquity of the parents
    upon the children
    and the children’s children,
    to the third and the fourth generation.”

    had the people not have worshipped the animal, yhwh would have continued to forgive the transgression and sin of the people. Idolatry seems to have no forgiveness in the text, but doing sins LESS than that does.


    According to you the more people sin the more they will repent and the more righteous they will be.”

    Thats what ezekiel says. when they reach certain point in spirituality their sins will diminish.

    Like

    • “According to you the more people sin the more they will repent and the more righteous they will be.”

      “The more ppl sin….”

      . the more you repent, the less you will sin.

      where did i say “the more ppl sin the more they will repent”

      Like

  6. “There is nothing in Ezekiel 18 that teaches that an intermittent and temporary righteousness merits eternal life.”

    Again, when the wicked turn away from the wickedness they have committed and do what is lawful and right, they shall save their life. 28 Because they considered and turned away from all the transgressions that they had committed, they shall surely live; they shall not die. 29 Yet the house of Israel says, “The way of the Lord is unfair.” O house of Israel, are my ways unfair? Is it not your ways that are unfair?

    30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, all of you according to your ways, says the Lord God. Repent and turn from all your transgressions; otherwise iniquity will be your ruin.[c] 31 Cast away from you all the transgressions that you have committed against me, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! Why will you die, O house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone, says the Lord God. Turn, then, and live.

    yhwh repeated himself “again…”

    you think that righteousness is “temporary”

    The text says even the righteous sins, they do not become sinless after repentance.

    text says that they shall save themselves and surely live.

    Like

    • But this life is not external life. And their righteousness does not take away their sin for which they are being punished with exile in the first place.

      Like

      • nonsense, even the ones who are being “punished with exile” are told to turn back and do the statues , rituals and laws of yhwh , so this clearly indicates that even while being punished they will get there reward if they listen. yes, the bible clearly says human RIGHTEOUSNESS has the ability to save like it did noah, daneil and job.

        Like

      • “And their righteousness does not take away their sin for which they are being punished”

        but yhwh says he punishes righteous/sinless people for “no reason”
        job
        amalekite children
        infants
        unborn

        so a jew in exile had brimstone raining down on him every time he sinned?
        their repentance and deeds did not take away their sins?
        they did not have moment of mercy from their god while they were in exile?

        those who are being punished are told to repent and turn back to god. so their deeds, ritualism , repentance does “take away their sins” because the ones who repented would end up where? in hell or heaven?

        and return to the Lord your God, and you and your children obey him with all your heart and with all your soul, just as I am commanding you today, 3 then the Lord your God will restore your fortunes and have compassion on you, gathering you again from all the peoples among whom the Lord your God has scattered you.

        when you obey the Lord your God by observing his commandments and decrees that are written in this book of the law, because you turn to the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul.

        the jew dies while he is in exile thinking to himself that he must obey his god and his rituals.

        1. either the jew thought there was no after life reward, only earthly reward
        2. or he thought that by obeying his god and dying in exile he would get rewarded because of listening to his god

        Like

  7. The reward of eternal life is a gift of grace as Daniel’s prayer, chapter nine, shows:

    18 O my God, incline thine ear, and hear; open thine eyes, and behold our desolations, and the city which is called by thy name: for we do not present our supplications before thee for our righteousnesses, but for thy great mercies.

    19 O Lord, hear; O Lord, forgive; O Lord, hearken and do; defer not, for thine own sake, O my God: for thy city and thy people are called by thy name.

    Like

    • this whole “gift of grace” is not from the ritualistic and law filled torah.you dont get GIFT,

      yoi got to earn your gift through the gift of deeds and righteousness.

      there is a difference between god calling dan righteous and dan calling himself righteous. whenever ot uses the word righteousness it is refering to acts/works/deeds.

      3 Then I turned to the Lord God, to seek an answer by prayer and supplication with fasting and sackcloth and ashes. 4 I prayed to the Lord my God and made confession, saying,

      and what is the KEY for these “mercies” ? rituals, deeds , repentance all gifted by god .

      notice the sackcloth , fastinh and ashes . symbolic for tzedekah

      even if these three men–Noah, Daniel and Job–were in it, they could save only themselves by their righteousness, declares the Sovereign LORD

      deeds/works/rituals

      Like

  8. “even if these three men–Noah, Daniel and Job–were in it, they could save only themselves by their righteousness, declares the Sovereign LORD”

    All these men were sinners according to the bible. That is why they all offered burnt offerings to make atonement for themselves. Their good deeds alone could not do that.

    It is also stated explicitly that Noah found grace in the sight of God.

    Job and Daniel both confessed their sin which makes it impossible for them to merit or earn eternal life through the keeping of the law.

    After Adam sinned his first sin he was spiritually dead or alienated from God. This means it was not possible for him to earn eternal life through any subsequent good deeds.

    Also Islam has a different conception of the law and sin which is contrary to the bible.

    This would have to be cleared up first to make any further discussion meaningful.

    Like

    • “All these men were sinners according to the bible. That is why they all offered burnt offerings to make atonement for themselves. Their good deeds alone could not do that.”

      their deeds saved them.
      looking after an animal and then burning them.

      they werent for sin offerings though .


      It is also stated explicitly that Noah found grace in the sight of God.”

      the hebrew EXPLICITLY SAYS that noahs SAVED himself

      not faith in jesus, not faith in human sacrifice.

      “Job and Daniel both confessed their sin which makes it impossible for them to merit or earn eternal life through the keeping of the law.”

      says a pagan crosstian again and again, on the otherhand ,yhwh says again and again DO my RITUALS AND LAWS AND LIVE….

      but here is the thing, if faith in human sacrifice was something adam believed in and was in communion wit the pagan triplets, why was adam Punished ?

      you crosstians have no assurance of salvation because your god could violent punish u even in heaven.

      jesus explicitly says that u guys will go to hell for doing miracles in his name lol

      “After Adam sinned his first sin he was spiritually dead or alienated from God. ”

      his faith in human sacrificr didnt save him. yhwh said nothing about “spiritual death”

      “This means it was not possible for him to earn eternal life through any subsequent good deeds.”

      says who? yheh again and again tells son of adam that he can MASTER over sin .

      6 The Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry, and why has your countenance fallen? 7 If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin is lurking at the door; its desire is for you, but you must master it.”

      yhwh refutes your jesus

      Like

      • Adam didn’t die physically so there is only one alternative. Spiritual death.

        “but here is the thing, if faith in human sacrifice was something adam believed in”

        Now you are resorting to anachronism. The promise was given after he sinned.

        “says a pagan crosstian again and again, on the otherhand ,yhwh says again and again DO my RITUALS AND LAWS AND LIVE….”

        AND LIVE, does that mean eternal paradise and 72 virgins according to you? You are just reading that in to the text because of your bias are you not? It is not mentioned in the text.

        Why does Solomon say that after the exiles have repented and confessed their sins all that they can expect from God is mercy from their captors?:

        1 Kings 8 v

        “46 If they sin against thee, (for there is no man that sinneth not,) and thou be angry with them, and deliver them to the enemy, so that they carry them away captives unto the land of the enemy, far or near;”

        50 And forgive thy people that have sinned against thee, and all their transgressions wherein they have transgressed against thee, and give them compassion before them who carried them captive, that they may have compassion on them:

        No mention of gardens and virgins here.

        Which laws did Abraham keep to earn a place in paradise? He was saved by faith not works.

        Gen 15 v 6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

        Why did Job trust in God to redeem him and not in his own works?

        Job 19:25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:

        Like

      • @ Erasmus

        You are confusing Islam’s position. Good deeds do not earn you a place in heaven they are manifestations of faith. Regarding Abraham(as) and Job(as) they did many good deeds.

        Abraham(as) left his idol worshipping people, Sacrifices (both animal and son) prayer, etc.

        And Job(as) was patient with God’s Decree.

        These are examples of their high levels of faith. After doing this there is no doubt their faith increased which would cause them to do more good.

        Like

    • Btw yhwh never wanted adam to live “eternally” thats why he prevented him from eating from “tree of knowledge” since that would give adam the ability to locate “tree of life” .

      yhwh found it a threat that human with knowledge would now live eternally if he eat from the tree.

      yhwh NEVER intented that adam LIVE eternally

      Like

      • “but here is the thing, if faith in human sacrifice was something adam believed in and was in communion wit the pagan triplets, why was adam Punished ? ”

        Sacrifice does not do away with temporal punishments mr heathcliff does it? Where does it say that anywhere in the bible? Otherwise how could the law punish anyone for anything or demand reparation?

        As I understand it if Adam had eaten of the tree of life in his sinful condition that would mean he would stay alive in that condition. God could not allow that.

        Like


  9. Sacrifice does not do away with temporal punishments mr heathcliff does it? ”

    adam was in heaven with the three triplets.
    it is the filthy crosstians who say that all the prophets had the pagan human sacrifice of jesus in mind thats what gives them heaven . since adam is already in heaven and “repented through pagan human sacrifice” why did he get “temporal punishment” ?

    1.the three triplets did not prophecy to adam about future sacrifice which would beat animal offerings? Adam did not repent?

    “Where does it say that anywhere in the bible? Otherwise how could the law punish anyone for anything or demand reparation?”

    we are talking about PRE-LAW

    “As I understand it if Adam had eaten of the tree of life in his sinful condition that would mean he would stay alive in that condition. ”

    But he had the blood of jesus he was believing in , right?

    “God could not allow that.”

    he was swimming in blood though

    Like

    • “Where does it say that anywhere in the bible? Otherwise how could the law punish anyone for anything or demand reparation”

      so are you going to get PUNISHED for your sin ? is yhwh going to pour his divine judgement on you when u sin tomorrow?

      since adam had FAITH , faith didnt save him , what makes u so confident lol?

      those triplets would probably get u back for your sins unless u believe u are free from divine consequences , but so did adam, yet he was still punished. he was judged . i think u better doubt the claims of jesus. Even jesus tells u that on day of judgemrnt u will be going to HELL even after doing miracles in his name

      yhwh does say that RIGHTEOUSNESS brings rewards, but adams FAITH brought him disaster.

      u should be worried

      Like

  10. “Adam didn’t die physically so there is only one alternative. Spiritual death.”

    Where does the bible say that ?
    yhwh already wanted adam to die regardless if he eat from the tree or not, satan told the truth and said “if you eat , you will not die”
    no such thing as “spiritual death”

    “but here is the thing, if faith in human sacrifice was something adam believed in”


    Now you are resorting to anachronism. The promise was given after he sinned.”

    what does that matter?

    “says a pagan crosstian again and again, on the otherhand ,yhwh says again and again DO my RITUALS AND LAWS AND LIVE….”

    AND LIVE, does that mean eternal paradise and 72 virgins according to you? ”

    of course.

    “You are just reading that in to the text because of your bias are you not? It is not mentioned in the text.”

    no , yhwh AGAIN AND AGAIN REQUESTS the jews to perform deeds to get in communion with him

    “Why does Solomon say that after the exiles have repented and confessed their sins all that they can expect from God is mercy from their captors?:”

    Are you deliberately being an IDIOT, ASSmus?

    solomon telling yhwh that it is gods mercy does not take away from the fact that in yhwhs eyes DEEDS/WORKS/rituals are what gets u in communion with him

    U r looking at one part BUT FORGETTING THE MAIN KEY and that is deeds/works/rituals which yhwh sees as RIGHTEOUSNESS

    1 Kings 8 v

    “46 If they sin against thee, (for there is no man that sinneth not,) and thou be angry with them, and deliver them to the enemy, so that they carry them away captives unto the land of the enemy, far or near;”

    50 And forgive thy people that have sinned against thee, and all their transgressions wherein they have transgressed against thee, and give them compassion before them who carried them captive, that they may have compassion on them:


    No mention of gardens and virgins here.”

    theyll have the virgins from the book of numbers

    “Which laws did Abraham keep to earn a place in paradise? He was saved by faith not works.”


    Gen 15 v 6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

    yhwh counted pineas deed of KILLING as righteousness.

    Why didnt paul say that actions of pineas were counted as righteous ?

    what u fail to understand is the following:

    yhwh counts as RIGHTEOUS practicing his torah.

    “And it WILL BE righteousness for us if we are careful to DO this entire commandment before the Lord our God as He commanded us.”

    “For I have loved/known him because he commands his children and his household after him that they keep the way of the Lord to DO righteousness and justice…”

    if believing is considered righteousness then what about DOING, THAT must be righteousness IN ITSELF

    The act of believing is like it is a deed, but the act of deed itself is RIGHTEOUSNESS

    Yhwh again and again wants u to do his laws , rituals

    “Why did Job trust in God to redeem him and not in his own works?”

    Are u an IDIOT? yhwh CONSIDERED ACTS OF DEEDS AS RIGHTEOUS, IN his eyes they are great .none of these guys are saying that their works are INDEPENDANT OF god but that god HAS BLESSED THEM/GIFTED THEM TO TURN TO HIM AND DO RIGHTEOUS DEEDS. why do u evil crosstians twists things?

    Like

  11. Isaiah 56:1-Thus saith the LORD: Keep ye judgement, and DO TZEDAKAH; for My yeshua (salvation) is near to come, and My favour to be revealed.

    Isaiah 58:2-Yet they seek Me daily, and delight to know My ways; as a nation that DID TZEDAKAH, and forsook not the ordinance of their God, they ask of Me righteous judgements, they delight to draw near unto God.

    Psalms 106:3-Happy are they that keep justice, that DO TZEDAKAH at all times.

    Psalms 106:30-31-Then stood up Phinehas, and wrought judgment, and so the plague was stayed.And that was counted unto him for TZEDAKAH, unto all generations for ever.

    why dont crosstians TRUST yhwh when yhwh says HUMAN DEEDS ARE RIGHTEOUSNESS ?

    why do they twist words “did job trust…” its about trusting god and believing that out of his mercy he gave one abiloty to do tzedekah.

    For I have known him [Abraham], to the end that he may command his children and his household after him, that they may keep THE WAY OF THE LORD TO DO TZEDAKAH AND JUSTICE; to the end that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which He hath spoken of him.’

    see? yhwh wants u to do DEEEEEDS RITUALS. LAWS to come in relationship with him.its not the prophet saying they are rightepus IT IS yhwh saying that since he eve make DISTINCTION BETWEEN RIGHTEOUS ONE and RASHA/EVIL unreighteppous

    Like

  12. “. Good deeds do not earn you a place in heaven they are manifestations of faith”

    Stew, jewish position seems to be different because it seems that the hebrew bible itself is confused on this issue,

    i quote :

    This flatly contradicts God’s own teachings, that we are supremely in command of our spiritual destiny through our actions. See Genesis 4:7; Deuteronomy 30: 11-14, 19-20; Ezekiel Chapters 18 and 33. Also Psalms 145:18.

    quote:

    “Whoever is kind to the poor lends to the LORD, and he will reward them for what they have done.” (Proverbs 19:17)
    We “give” something to God in the sense that we do what He wants. Only we human can do such a great thing!
    Hashem doesn’t partake of holiness – He IS holiness and we partake of His Holiness.
    Hashem DOES tzedakah with us and we emulate Him and do what He wants by DOING tzedakah towards each other.
    Do you hear this?

    That was a Christian translation. Here is the exact translation:
    17 He that is gracious unto the poor lendeth unto the LORD; and his good deed will He repay unto him.

    “Who hath given Me anything beforehand, that I should repay him? Whatsoever is under the whole heaven is Mine.” [Job 41]

    What’s “under the whole heaven” we can’t give him – we can’t give him “stuff”. But what’s “above” the heavens – doing His will – which includes DOING TZEDAKAH (not BEING tzedakah which makes no sense) towards each other is how we can in a sense “give” to him or in another sense “lend” him and He will “repay” us as the verse says. Do you hear this?

    Hashem has everything except for one thing – He wants us to do His will. This is something He can’t do for Himself. If we don’t do it, He doesn’t have it. So when we do His will, we really are giving Him what He wants the most.

    If Paul is teaching Jews to be Torah-observant and that they can be acceptable to God by keeping the Law, then:
    1. What do we need Jesus for?
    2. Why does Paul teach the opposite of this in many times?

    We can’t give Hashem anything because He doesn’t lack anything – He has it All. Does He desire anything from us? Yes He does. So when we try to comply with His desire we are fulfilling His desire. This is all we can give back to Him. It’s a paradox.
    You want to say that tzedakah as used in Tanakh means or sometimes means a state of being good, holy and acceptable to God, right? Please show us the verses in Tanakh that clearly demonstrate this – only verses that are clear and unambiguous. There are none. But there are numerous verses that state “TO DO tzedakah”. There are zero verses that say “TO BE tzedakah”. This is because tzedakah is an action and not a state of being. Just like you can’t say “BE CHARITY”, you can say “BE tzedakah”.

    Like

  13. AND it continues :

    According to Paul, because one cannot be righteous through observance of the law, one can only be counted righteous according to faith. His argument is riddled with holes. He misrepresents Tanach. He comes to unjustified conclusions. Almost anything he says about righteousness through the “deeds of the law” could just as easily be said about righteousness through faith. However, I only wish to address (for the sake of brevity) the answer that Torah gives to the question of how one achieves righteousness if he had previously not kept the law.

    In quoting Deuteronomy 30, Paul misrepresents it, as I have pointed out earlier in this dialogue between you and me. He also skips over the very beginning, which is extremely relevant to this question. Moses tells the people that after they have experienced the blessings and the curses that if they will repent “and return to the Lord your God, with all your heart and soul, just as I am commanding you today, then the Lord your God will restore your fortunes and have compassion on you, gathering you again from all the peoples among whom the Lord your God has scattered you” (Deut. 30:1-5). First take not of what is missing, faith in the Messiah. In fact, though Paul tries to find it there, reading the chapter without his interjections and omissions, one sees that faith is not at all mentioned as the answer to sin. Restoration DOES NOT COME through faith but by returning to the law, practicing God’s Torah. Contrary to the doctrine of Paul, God rewards obedience.

    Ezekiel tells us the same. In 33:10, he has the people asking how they can live with the weight of their sin oppressing them, smothering them. And again, faith in the Messiah is nowhere to be found. God’s answer is much different than Pauls: “Say to them, As I live, says the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from their ways and live: turn back, turn back from your evil ways; for why will you die, O house of Israel?” (v.11). And He says that if the wicked heed His voice and “turn from their sin and do what is lawful and right…they shall surely live, they shall not die” (Ez. 33:14-16). In a similar passage in Ezekiel 18, he says of those that repent of their wickedness: “None of the transgressions that they have committed shall be remembered against them; for the righteousness that they have done they shall live” (v. 22). Note that this righteousness is according to the deeds of the law, even for those who once were violators of that law.

    This is the promise of God, and it is an act of faith to turn from one’s sin and return to HaShem’s Torah. As Ezekiel makes clear, one’s wrongdoing may weigh heavily on him, and he might think that God would never accept him as righteous again. What good would keeping the law then do? The promise of God is that one can become righteous. If he truly turns from his ways, God will count him as righteous. He will no longer hold against him the wickedness of the past. Trusting in this promise is faith in God.

    Faithless Paul has denied this promise. He says that obeying the law justifies no one. The law, according to him, only reveals how wicked people are. It gives no recourse for becoming right with God. Paul disagrees with God. Again, the word of man, the word of Paul, is on one side and the Word of God is on the other. To whom shall we incline our ear? In whom shall we put our trust? I cannot deny the promise of God. He provided a remedy for the consequences of disobedience, a return to the law, a return to obedience. The law does not offer only death, but life as well. If one denies this, he denies the promise of God–just as Paul did.

    end quote

    so when the crosstian says :

    “Why did Job trust in God to redeem him and not in his own works?”

    he fails to see that his own god has “faith” in DEEDS of humans and tells humans to do his will and that is DEEDS in the flesh

    Liked by 1 person

  14. My imaginary god is the right one. No, mine is! Your holy book is contradictory. No, yours is.

    You all try to claim someone else has a beam in their eye, but forget the one in your own, to borrow a phrase.

    Hate to tell you guys but you all are wrong. No reason to think any of you have any truth at all.

    Like

  15. There goes those emotional rants again.

    Hey guys, news update clubschadenfreude said were wrong so I guess that makes it so!!!

    Liked by 2 people

  16. Well first off, I am a former Christian now atheist. So while I know enough bible only to be dangerous, it’s always important to remember – it isn’t Paulianity, Its Christianity. Many of Paul’s teachings were never addressed by Jesus. A great example is, the Christian fundamentalist views toward homosexuality, were never taught by Jesus – no mention of it. But these folks cling to Paul’s teachings. Now they always will say, it is from god, being in the bible, no matter where it is, and then they are satisfied. Doesn’t matter what science has shown us about amounts of testosterone and estrogen, and genetics, and things such as transgender anatomy – we still have this misunderstanding based on old religious nonsense not realizing all the ways humanity can be.

    But then of course, we get into Islam and Judaism and the old testament, and total hatred of all things homosexual fits right in with old religious teaching and therefore thinking. Frankly, if there was a God, or an Allah, or a Jehovah, all fundamentalist religious nuts would have transgender children as a reminder of the good parts of religion – treatment of others and humility.

    And there are good things in all religions as to how to treat others – I think Hindu Ramana Maharshi said, ” there are no others”, and that sums it up quite nicely. But there is no deity ladies and gentlemen. And to argue and fight, even today, about the religious things that caused and continue to cause so most tragedy throughout history, is so very, very dangerous. So have your fun – argue about the verses, but don’t go to war over them.

    Like

    • Jesus like all Jews condemned homosexual acts – the Jewish Bible clearly condemns them.

      ‘Transgenderism’ is a mental illness that requires psychiatric intervention.

      Liked by 1 person

    • @ shnozzola

      It’s not hatred we simply don’t allow evil to spread in our society. For example, idol worshipping is WAY higher on the list of sin and something that causes actual hatred.

      Also ps there is no born gay its a by-product of environment.

      pss the world doesn’t run on your opinion and simply declaring there is no God doesn’t make it so.

      Psss You seem to be either a fool or quite naive if you think religion is the main cause of war. Simply repeating mantras doesn’t make one “enlightened”, “woke” or deep”.

      Pssss Become a Muslim.

      Like

      • Both your posts are what scares me about humanity’s future. While we have a community of scientific knowledge on one hand, that would accept the way people are, and the way they act – however that is – on the other hand, to hear “condemnation” and “evil”, doesn’t bode well. We can only hope you can keep your beliefs to yourselves, understanding that the world also “doesn’t run on your opinions”.

        So when you meet these transgender people – how must you treat them?

        Like

      • @ shnozzola

        (Rolls eyes) Oh, the humanity! Sure humans have existed for hundreds of thousands of years but the future doesn’t bode well because people condemn certain filthy acts. I guess the future is bleak indeed…

        Anyways no type of way really they’re still human beings, but that does not mean it’s not a sin and thus said act will never be approved of just like alcohol, fornication, drugs, lying, stealing, murder, rape, robbery, interest etc. It’s the same way, of if I lived during Prophet Muhammad’s(saw) time I wouldn’t approve of people burying their children alive even though it was considered normal. AND if I’m asked or hit on I let them know accordingly.

        Your assuming because I don’t approve of something means I’m “self-righteous” is LITERALLY the exact same thing the people of Sodom and Gomorrah made with Lot when he told them they shouldn’t do this particular sin:

        7:80. I sent Lot to his nation and he said: “How can you do this? Have you become so shameless that you will commit such a disgusting act that no one has preceded you in the world?”
        7:81. “You desire to be with men instead of women! You are people that have gone beyond what is the normal limits!”
        7:82. His nation had no response except: “Just get these people who act like their so righteous and pure out of here!”

        27:54. I sent Lot to his nation and he said to them: “How can you commit this act while everyone is looking?”
        27:55. “You approach men instead of women for your desires? You people are thinking too much with your emotions!”
        27:56. The only answer his nation would give was: “Just kick out Lot’s family from your city because these people think they’re so pure and righteous.”
        27:57. I saved him and his family except for his wife, I destined her to be among those who stayed behind,
        27:58. and I brought the rain down upon them. How terrible that rain was for those who had been warned.

        These people have OBVIOUS psychological trauma (hence why their suicide rates are ridiculously high, they usually do other things like cut themselves etc. AND it WAS originally classified as such they just changed it due to social pressure) Just think about, why does who you like having sex with affect your WHOLE personality of talking a certain way, adopting certain mannerisms and vocab, etc?

        To show your nativity once again a simple question for ya. How did “AIDS” (really called Gay-related immune deficiency (GRID)) spread to the African American population? Oh… through homosexuals! You see what would happen is homosexual men would have sex with each other, then being in the closet would go home and have sex with their wives. Now one way or the other either through more adultery, fornication after divorce etc. they would spread it even more amongst the society. So yes it is “Evil” and worthy of “condemnation”. Just because TV shows start showing homosexuals to brainwash into thinking it’s okay does not make it so and is completely unrelated to being “a community of scientific knowledge” (which even then works against this act) And this further shows the proof of Islam because the Prophet Muhammad(saw) said:

        “…there are five things with which you will be tested, and I seek refuge with Allah lest you live to see them: Immorality never appears among a people to such an extent that they commit it openly, but plagues and diseases that were never known among the predecessors will spread among them.”

        https://sunnah.com/ibnmajah/36

        Something VERY worthy of pondering

        So for recap:

        1. Condemning bad things is not wrong nor does it make one self-righteous (depending on the intent)
        2. Homosexuals have psychological trauma and need help not approval
        3. Homosexuals have demonstratable evils to society that is swept under the rug and ignored due to media promoting it as if it’s okay.
        4. Homosexuality is a by-product of the environment there is no being born gay
        5. The Prophet(saw) spoke the truth athat this one category of several others do when allowed to spread
        6. Become a Muslim

        Thank you.

        Like

  17. Thanks for your response, Stew.
    “…humans have existed for hundreds of thousands of years”
    -good, that thinking separates you from the 6000 yearers. (we all must remember, there IS truth, and that is the debate)

    “….Anyways no type of way really they’re still human beings, but that does not mean it’s not a sin”
    – also good, the main part of your response that tells me your views, your acceptance of others. Obviously important to remember we know little about each other. While debating this way on the internet, where we jump right into serious questions on beliefs, which we never tend to do face to face in real life, while more fun, I am glad to see, you are more of a moderate Muslim, where similar moderate cafeteria style Christians also pick and choose the old book’s rules they agree or disagree with. As your comment below:

    “…..if I lived during Prophet Muhammad’s(saw) time I wouldn’t approve of people burying their children alive”

    Enough about the LGBT community. My next question:
    Of course Christianity (specifically the book of revelations) predicts the end of the world and Christ’s return, Armageddon, etc. What does Islam teach, and how do you both feel about those teachings?

    Like

    • oh. one important thing I forgot to address. The idea that the LGBT suicide rate is high. It IS obvious, but not in the way you think. Consider a child born that has genetics that, say, produce large amounts of estrogen in a male body, or large amounts of testosterone in a female body. This can make a person not fit in the roles society recognizes. If that person is accepted just as they are (which is unfortunately not the case, many times in family, and much more in society – see the public restroom debate that is raging. I put it to you that, if accepted without angry gender rules, we see normal suicide rates based on other depression problems. I would argue it is not based on a mental sin punishment from Allah)

      (sorry if this was reposted, not sure if I can reply to my own post)

      Like

      • @ shnozzola

        Before we continue I wanted to apologize for my initial rudeness and hostility. The blog has a tendency to attract trolls who aren’t interested in serious conversation.

        Since we’re introducing ourselves, I’ll try to sum myself up. I was agnostic until I was about 16. Met some Christians who shifted me from 50/50 t0 60/40 but never got religious or anything. My sis became Muslim then I did and have been a Muslim ever since.

        Now onto the discussion, I think you misunderstood my comment “…if I lived during Prophet Muhammad’s(saw) time I wouldn’t approve of people burying their children alive”

        The Muslims were not burying their children alive this was the pagan Arabs before Islam. To “pick and choose” removes somebody from the folds of Islam and God condemns the Jews for this asking rhetorically “Do you believe in some of the Scripture and reject the rest?” I’m not “moderate” there are simply worse sins as far as Islam is concerned and ANYBODY can fall into ANY sin. God is the one who guides and He says basically in the Quran don’t go around acting like your pure. Sitting their bashing people is not the way to get them to stop sin it makes the person put a wall up and ignore what you’re saying.

        Just to quickly to address your one point on estrogen etc. this is a different issue entirely. If someone talks feminine, does feminine characteristics inadvertently etc. THAT is not a sin. You can also add in people born with both organs or are ACTUALLY asexual and not just someone looking for attention (the rulings for these type of people are different for example they could take testosterone or estrogen etc) Just to show examples:

        https://islamqa.info/en/answers/114670/ruling-on-marrying-a-man-who-is-intersex-or-impotent-and-the-difference-between-them

        https://islamqa.info/en/answers/193236/her-outward-appearance-is-like-other-girls-but-she-does-not-have-female-organs-she-has-male-organs-what-should-she-do

        The condemned action is PURPOSELY acting feminine. For example, at my sister’s job one of her coworkers “Came out of the closet” and then started talking and acting like a woman. Before this event, he acted like a dude talked like a dude etc.

        https://islamqa.info/en/answers/81994/he-likes-to-imitate-women

        There is another Muslim I know (I won’t name but if he wishes he can discuss it) who is tempted this way and you would NEVER know unless he told you. What he does is praiseworthy and it is counted on his scale for a reward from his Lord. (Also it goes without saying that thought is also not a sin. So for example, if a person has homosexual thoughts then their not called to account for this it is the act and intent that matters.)

        Liked by 2 people

    • @ shnozzola
      Regarding your question on Jesus(as) I’m having a hard time understanding the question so I’ll answer to the best of my ability (if I’m wrong just clarify further) If you mean “Is the book of Revelations an authority to us” the answer would be no. It has parts clearly written by men. If you mean do we agree with some of the teachings written within the book then yes but there are some points where we differ from Christianity:

      1. Jesus(as) is 100% a human and one of God’s prophets
      2. He will return, rule and then die; and humanity will go on for a bit afterwards
      3. We do have an overall day of Judgement but this has nothing to do with Jesus(as) “Bringing it about” his return is simply one of its major signs.
      4. We do have the Anti-Christ but the concept is different:
      A.Not the devil just a regular human who will perform some miracles and trick people into thinking he is a prophet then God Himself
      B.Jesus(as) will kill him
      C. Most importantly the Prophet(saw) said he has one eye.

      I was scared of making my post too long so if you want further clarification (or I just completely misunderstood you lol) just let me know.

      Liked by 2 people

      • Thanks Stew. That pretty much answers my question. I was mainly interested in whether there was an Islamic “end of times” view, and what it was.

        Another thing I do not get. The extreme Taliban view against music – I do not understand it at all – on what is it based?

        To compare the idea of being against music to a Christian denomination perspective – Some old order Mennonites refuse to use rubber tires, and use only metal wheels, so the discomfort prevents one from getting so comfortable that they forget God.

        Liked by 1 person

      • @ shnozzola

        Hard for me to talk about it as I’m not from that area of the world so I don’t know everything. I will make a quick comment that this opinion has existed long before the Taliban.

        To simplify, it is agreed by basically everyone bad lyrics and certain instruments are forbidden, but an entire prohibition imo (until seeing something else) is a little too much as we have some evidence to the contrary. But I can see how they got the ruling of complete prohibition if that makes sense.

        So I have a question for you shnozzola if you don’t mind me asking, you said you used to be a Christian and became an athiest. So what made you lose your faith?

        Like

  18. oh. one important thing I forgot to address. The idea that the LGBT suicide rate is high. It IS obvious, but not in the way you think. Consider a child born that has genetics that, say, produce large amounts of estrogen in a male body, or large amounts of testosterone in a female body. This can make a person not fit in the roles society recognizes. If that person is accepted just as they are (which is unfortunately not the case, many times in family, and much more in society – see the public restroom debate that is raging. I put it to you that, if accepted without angry gender rules, we see normal suicide rates based on other depression problems. I would argue it is not based on a mental sin punishment from Allah)

    Like

  19. This is pretty long, sorry. I even expect the forum program to reject the length as trolling. But you do not lose your faith in a few sentences . 🙂

    Liked by 1 person

  20. This is pretty long, sorry.
    So, I was raised in the Christian Anabapist community, the ones that were burned at the stake in the 16th and 17th centuries by Roman Catholics and protestants, for refusing infant baptism and allowing people to decide if and when they wanted to join the church. Our view of Christianity, my immediate family, is not like most. We view the teachings of Jesus, much like many different leaders of religions, as true for all people. We are not so much interested in personal salvation, the end times, or the resurrection of Jesus. Sadly, IMO, many Christians would lose interest in Christianity if it was proven that Jesus did not rise again. We are mostly interested in teachings such as The Good Samaritan, or the Sermon on the Mount, mostly Jesus’ parables. Anything that looks at the people society rejects (in Jesus time it was the lepers) and lifts them up to realize all people are equal , All people deserve dignity and respect. In our minds, whether Muslim atheist, Hindu, witch, Jew, whatever – all people are on their own journey. To stand in each other’s shoes worldwide is what human kind needs to do. That is our interpretation of Jesus’ teachings.

    You know, Ghandi said – I like your Christ, not so much your Christians. That sort of sums it up. And why I believe many Christians are leaving Christianity.

    Now for me, becoming an atheist………here is a story. In New Jersey, many years ago, 3 young boys were playing hide and seek, and locked themselves in the trunk of an old car on the property.

    https://www.cbsnews.com/news/nj-boys-found-dead-in-car-trunk/

    So many in Christianity said, God was teaching the family a lesson for some reason, because, for many, nothing can happen that isn’t God’s will. I can’t accept that.

    When 9/11 happened, and I was once again disgusted that the Abrahamic religions were at it again, against each other……I can’t accept that.

    With Israel and Palestine disrespecting each other for decades now, all because a knee-jerk reaction after WW11 kicked Palestinians out of their homes and said – now this belongs to Israel………I can’t accept that, especially when many in Christianity praise the whole thing as fitting into what they believe is the second coming timeline.

    When Afghan girls want to go to school and learn, and the Taliban pours acid on them due to religious beliefs….I can’t accept that.

    Or, returning to our earlier conversation, when people following Islam condemn the LGBT community for what the religious manuals say…….I can’t accept that.

    The people that are most broken in society – even, say, murderers, rapists, drug dealers – the very worst of society – get horribly treated by society. Understand, I know these people cannot return to be a part of society, they are too dangerous. But society needs to “maintain” these people with a dignified existence. Not return murder for murder (capital punishment), not beat the people that are already broken. The view of my family is unheard of in society. Yes, we are deemed naive. We always return hatred with love.

    Now, it is ironic how the God believers of all religions, all say – God is the judge – practice no such thing in reality. Man is the judge. You look for a God to show up and do the judging that everyone asks for – it never happens.

    So after 9/11 I got interested in an atheist forum, where very intelligent arguments with people started me thinking differently. Now I did not have one event that turned me away from Christianity. It has been a serious step by step thought process as I got older. It is especially troubling to think how most atheists are treated by the religious – just like rapists and murderers. It says a lot about religion over the ages.

    Now, as for God. Here is a link to the gods humanity has worshipped. You have probably seen it already.

    https://web.archive.org/web/20120216074651/http://www.godfinder.org/

    Here is a look at world religions over the centuries. You have probably seen this too. It is getting harder to get a good copy of the tree of religions because the religious continue to try and remove it.

    Both these graphics put into perspective our evolution. Each of us, our 80 or so year view, take our beliefs far too seriously, especially when we look at how we treat each other due to these beliefs.

    One of the hardest things, when contemplating that there never were any deities, is how life came to be. Especially that so much of religion is drilled into us throughout life. It takes some study, some serious thinking, to realize that time – 4 billion years, is so great, that protein sequences with organic chemistry, simple viruses that accidently replicated, for a good billion years, started having lipid oil cell walls with specialized single cell existence – and the next billion years, with photosynthesis starting, well, led to us.

    It takes an open mind to consider it. And most religious folks condemn the very idea as blasphemous. And if I am wrong and there is a say, the Muslim god called Allah, that created the earth in 7 days, and the entire universe, etc. etc, and he is totally pissed at me for considering something else, then that is my misfortunate to deal with. I will burn in hell for eternity, or maybe just cease to exist, while the very best in Islam get the virgins, which I find something that typical human males would write in a book, so that they will feel better about some needed reward for a hard life. But they may be right. Who am I to know? Most of us are the religion in the area we grew up in – that says something there.

    Liked by 1 person

    • @ shnozzola

      No need to apologize for the length I asked you the question lol. I actually prefer hearing people’s stories then arguing all day as you learn more (for example I just learned what an Anabaptist is!)

      Anyways back to your post so reading your thing I can definitely see where you’re coming from. So without being too long (hopefully) I’ll write where I agree and disagree with you and stuff that generally stood out to me.

      1. The rejects of society
      Probably the thing of your post that I 100% agree and while Muslims are a minority in the West this is one thing I believe we should work on bringing back. A rule of thumb when the Message comes to the society it’s these people who are actually the first to accept Islam and the elite reject and fight it. While this video is a bit a lengthy I want you to watch this as you kinda remind me of the Roman Emperor Heraclius when talking about if Muhammad(saw) is a true prophet or not?

      2. Bad things etc.

      We as Muslims don’t accept this view completely and it is very “underdeveloped” to say the least. I’ll try to keep this as simple as possible:

      God allows evil and is its ultimate source, however, He never directly attributes it to Himself and He allows it for the good it will ultimately bring. This world is a test and no one will care what happened to them in this life on the Day of Judgement:

      https://sunnah.com/riyadussaliheen/1/462

      To keep a long story short Moses(as) was asked was he the most knowledgeable person about God and he thought yes. God corrects him and wants him to learn from a person more knowledgeable than him. He meets the man and the man says don’t ask me about anything until I tell you about it and Moses(as) agrees. So the man and him walk together and need to get across a lake so they flag some fishermen down and they help them across. Moses’s Teacher then smashes their boat! Moses naturally being confused is like “Why would you do that?” Guy tells him “ah, ah, ah didn’t I tell you you wouldn’t understand?” So Moses(as) is like okay my bad. So then they come across this kid and the man kills him! So Moses is freaking out saying what an evil thing he’s done etc. The man repeats what he said. So Moses is like okay if I do it again we’ll go our separate ways. So they go to a village to rest for the night and end up getting chased out of town. So Moses’ teacher sees this wall and fixes it and so Moses asks and the man tells them they are going to separate now but he will tell him why he did what he did:

      1. The fishermen made their living from the sea and in a few days a king is coming and taking all serviceable boats
      2. The boy was going to grow up and be an oppressor who causes his parents to disbelieve in God. So he died so:
      a. He and his parents go to Heaven
      B. The parents are rewarded for being patient
      C. They will have a daughter who will treat them very good

      3. Regarding the wall in the village, there are some orphans whose parents left an inheritance for them under the wall. If it fell now the people would take it but he repaired it for when they get older and can protect it.

      All these things were bad but there was an ultimate good whether we see it in this life or on the Day of Judgement. Furthermore, God may also allow evil to:

      A.test believers (The Prophet said or affair is good when we are patient were rewarded and when we are given something we are thankful) Remember everything that happens in life whether good or evil is a test.
      B. Bring a person back to God. (Near-death experiences or something bad happens and they turn their lives around)
      C. Expose hypocrites
      D. Punish disbelievers. This may be a tiny punishment for them or God may delay it.

      I know there are more but this is off the top of my head. Either way the point is there is always good in what we perceive as evil and this is because God is All-Knowing and Wise. We may see it now or it maybe later.

      3. Multiple religions etc

      Well, the first thing is we never claim to have a monopoly on revelation:

      16:36. I appointed a Messenger for each nation telling them to worship God and to stay away from forces calling to rebellion. Among them are some God guided and some who misguidance materialized so they deserved to be led astray. Just travel throughout the earth and take a look for yourself. How was the fate of those who denied?

      Prophet Muhammad(saw) is simply the final prophet. So there being multiple religions is to be expected as there were many prophets sent to all nations and people corrupted the Message.

      4. No problem with questioning and finding the truth

      I didn’t grow up Muslim (or religious for that matter). But one thing I liked about Islam is the Quran opens itself up for mankind to challenge it and once it’s proven to be from God THEN believe.

      5. Punishment happens once the proof has been made clear
      17:15. Whoever holds onto guidance does so for their own good; and whoever gets lost does so at their own peril. No soul will bear another’s burden, nor is it My way to punish until I’ve sent a Messenger.

      Liked by 1 person

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