“Hostile readers of the Quran use a literary approach that is the equivalent of a blunt instrument. They make no attempt to understand the text as a whole; instead, they take individual verses out of context, give them the most extreme interpretation possible and implicitly claim that over 1 billion Muslims around the world robotically adhere to these extremist views without exception. This is, in effect, a conspiracy theory that has virally multiplied in significant sectors of modern Euro-American society. It is irrational, it is paranoid, and it is out of touch with the realities of the lives of most Muslims around the world today. It ignores the existence of multiple traditions of interpreting the Quran in very different fashions. Unfortunately, a small minority of extremists, who quote the Quran in support of terrorist violence, have been magnified by the media into a spectre that is now haunting Europe (and the United States) more intensely than Marxism ever did. In part because of these contemporary anxieties, it is difficult for most Europeans and Americans to read the Quran”
How to Read the Qur’an: A New Guide, with Select Translations by Carl W Ernst, published by Edinburgh University Press 2012
Carl W. Ernst is the Kenan Distinguished Professor of Islamic studies at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. He is also the director of the Carolina Center for the Study of the Middle East and Muslim Civilizations.
Categories: Islam, Islamophobia, Life in the West, Qur'an
***The greatest abuse and misuse of the Qur’an is interpreting it through the man assembled enterprise of hadith collection with the hadiths being mostly orally transmitted for many decades.***
There is not one verse out of the 6,200 verses of the Qur’an where Allah says to interpret His “clear” words through a secondary corpus to be collected later.
On the contrary, in many, many, many verses Allah explicitly tells us to ponder on His verses and Allah explicitly tells us that Allah made the Qur’an easy for us to remember and made it clear (for us to understand if we want to understand it).
The Prophet did not commission anyone to collect his hadiths despite him having hundreds of devoted followers and thousands of followers in general.
Not one of the first four “rightly guided” caliphs supported a commission.
There is evidence that Ali ibn Abi Talib unlike Abu Bakr, Umar, and Uthman supported the use of hadiths but as far as I know (please correct me if I am wrong), even he did not make a commission to collect all sayings in a systematic way.
I am not against the hadith…the hadith are a very important and useful resource and sometimes I think the hadith are perhaps essential to use….at least for ensuring rituals are done well….although the sunnah helped to preserve the most important aspects of the rituals. The hadith are helpful in also some fiqh issues.
There should be a hashtag StopusingQuran# with the hadith as the number one cause of abuse and misuse of the Qur’an by far.
Said no scholar ever.
Many have but they are not give as much attention by the gatekeepers…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=IWYWuoVv49U
It’s an institutional scandal as the case with all institutions, religious sectarian institutions develop their doctrines, culture, taboos, etc. under their specific political and social times.
It is less with Islam than other religions which have changed hugely or completely from their founders.
But the most impactful bidah (innovation) of all in Islam is the exaggerated status of hadith.
The closer one gets to the Qur’an, the closer to Allah’s teachings.
Should we follow Allah or institutional scholars when they conflict with Allah?
This is not a question for you but rhetorical.
But how to ever see if there ever is a conflict if one is only allowed to hear Allah’s words as it has to be first spun to fit in the mold of a select group of scholars who came centuries after the Prophet? –again rhetorical– The same scholars would differ if they lived today or a thousand years from now.
But here is a question for you….
Allah says that adultery requires flogging 100 times.
Reported hadith says stoning.
Louay Fatoohi explains how their is matn problem in virtually every hadith.
1. But even regardless of matn problem, why over rule Allah?
2. If the incident of first verses of Surah Noor was due to reported Aisha and the lost necklace incident, then consider the following…..
If President Obama received revelation from God and there was rumors of his wife Michelle and the same story and the verses say what to do with adulterers, would it not be awkward to say that the verses are restricted to only White people?
So restricting those verses fornication is a misuse and abuse of the Qur’an both literally and even with the context of the Aisha and the necklace oral tradition.
@ Ihsan
1. Who is this no name lol? Again funny that every hadeeth rejector cant find any respectable scholar to support their position. First sign.
2. One would simply toss a ruling if there were problems in a hadiths isnad (you’re ambiguous on what you mean defective in matn)
3. Your analogy is strange as this verse is referring to ones who accusse others of adultery. (Which she was) and nithing contextually is twisted
4. Since you asked me a question I believe its my turn to bring up the bane of every hadith rejector
A. How did the Quran reach us? No circular logic does not count.
B. How do you explain ambiguous parts of the Quran? If you need an example let me know.
C. How do you account for Qirat? One can now argue scribal errors and changing of early Quranic text.
D. How do you explain EXTREMELY early ahadith manuscripts? Such as Sahifa Of Hammam bin Munabbih?
This is always fun to watch. Instead of a StopusingQuran# I propose #seekknowledgefromthosequalified again simply study the subject and you’ll see why no scholar in our over 1000 years of scholarship has ever denied them. Here you go:
https://diploma.islamiconlineuniversity.com/opencampus/
Oh for got excellent intro by the Islamic Awareness team
https://www.islamic-awareness.org/hadith/hadith.html
stewjo004,
you did not understand my point…
you claim that the verses in Surah Noor removed the rumors in Madina about Aisha, right?
Ok.
But Aisha was married, right?
So if those receiving the verses thought that the verses on zina are restricted to fornication and not adultery, would that not be bizarre?
would it not increase the rumors, let alone stop them?
A. How did the Quran reach us? No circular logic does not count.
I don’t agree with all in this website but your answer is extracted from the following link …
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=2758.0
1. THE QURAN WAS COMPILED BY THE SAME MEN THAT COMPILED THE AHADITH
FALSE
The Quran as a canon was compiled and propagated in the prophet’s presence en masse (mutawaatir – through multiple chains) during his lifetime. This would have been transmitted by the Prophet himself (foremost), his contemporaries and entrusted entourage.
The canonised hadith as we know them today are the works of fallible men centuries removed from the prophet and the immediate generations of people that came into contact with the prophet. [1], [2], [3]
2. THE COMPILATION OF THE QURAN WAS ALSO A HUMAN EFFORT AFTER THE DEATH OF THE PROPHET
FALSE
These claims are sourced from secondary sources (such as Ahadith), not the Quran. The Quran’s own testimony provides clear evidence that the entire Quran was complete (15:87; 15:91; 17:88; 17:106; 30:58; 36:2; 5:3) and hand written by the noble scribes during the life of the prophet (80:013-16). [4]
3. THE QURAN WAS TRANSMITTED IN THE SAME MANNER AS AHADITH
FALSE
The Quran was propagated from the source (revelation to the prophet) by multiple chains en masse. The Ahadith corpus was propagated in the main as ‘ahad transmissions’ (limited corroboration, single source of evidence), simply by word of mouth allegedly across entire centuries.
B. How do you explain ambiguous parts of the Quran? If you need an example let me know.
Allah tells us explicitly in 3:7 to interpret the ambiguous parts in light of the Qur’an.
Allah further more tells us, nay, Allah commands us to use reason and Allah tells us the worst of creatures are those who do not use reason.
Sadly, many Muslims who are salafized minimize and downgrade the instrument of reason. *** I am not against all Salafi teachings***
3. Your analogy is strange as this verse is referring to ones who accusse others of adultery. (Which she was) and nithing contextually is twisted
See above to understand how you did not understand what I was alluding to.
I await for your response.
C. How do you account for Qirat? One can now argue scribal errors and changing of early Quranic text.
http://quransmessage.com/articles/seven%20readings%20FM3.htm
and this civil debate
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=840.0
D. How do you explain EXTREMELY early ahadith manuscripts? Such as Sahifa Of Hammam bin Munabbih?
http://quransmessage.com/articles/sahifah%20FM3.htm
Thanks for your questions….
Before you respond to my answers to your questions, you need to first adequately respond to what I sent and my questions to you….
1. I await your response for the clarification regarding the question on adultery
2. And I also await your response to the scholar’s comments in the link based on his book
https://www.amazon.com/Authentication-Hadith-Israr-Ahmad-Khan/dp/1565644484
3. “Said no scholar ever is not an adequate answer”
…what I originally sent are verifiable or falsifiable facts.
There is not one verse out of the 6,200 verses of the Qur’an where Allah says to interpret His “clear” words through a secondary corpus to be collected later.
****Please provide one verse out of 6,200+ to the contrary****
On the contrary, in many, many, many verses Allah explicitly tells us to ponder on His verses and Allah explicitly tells us that Allah made the Qur’an easy for us to remember and made it clear (for us to understand if we want to understand it).
The Prophet did not commission anyone to collect his hadiths despite him having hundreds of devoted followers and thousands of followers in general.
****Please provide evidence that he (pbuh) did commission a plan to collect all his scattered sayings.
Not one of the first four “rightly guided” caliphs supported a commission.
****Please provide evidence that refutes the above….you should also explain why did Abu Bakr burn his 500 hadith collection and why did Umar make a bonfire for everyones’s hadiths he can get and why he argued against the Prophet (pbuh) request to document something before he died saying the Qur’an is enough (I don’t agree with the behavior that Umar did to the Prophet (pbuh) but it is relevant to my overall point)
There is evidence that Ali ibn Abi Talib unlike Abu Bakr, Umar, and Uthman supported the use of hadiths but as far as I know (please correct me if I am wrong), even he did not make a commission to collect all sayings in a systematic way. (to clarify further Ali focused on the Qur’an and is alleged to have reported (in Shia source but I think there are Sunni sources that would support it) to say that there are many false sayings that are attributed to the Prophet)
Rather than having “fun,” become serious…this is a serious topic.
I’m read hadith rejector fan fiction let’s sart with Surah Nur:
24:4. As for those who hurl accusations at virtuous women, and then fail to provide four witnesses, lash them eighty times, and never accept their testimony afterwards because they’re misguided.
There is nothing here that moves nothing weird here.
Moving on, know that when someone says this about ahadith:
“The canonised hadith as we know them today are the works of fallible men centuries removed from the prophet”
They officially have no idea what they’re talking about or how how hadith were compiled (and from the looks of it this idiot doesn’t know how Quran was either). As I said earlier Bukhari is a late CODIFICATION process not COMPILATION process. Big difference between the two. Bukhari took older works and combined them and then we Muslims copied them as it wass simpler (no printing press) For example as I said earlier the Sahifa of Hammam bin Munabbih is dated extremely early and from the article I posted:
“of the 138 narrations in the Sahifa, 98 of them are faithfully witnessed in the later collections of al-Bukhari and Muslim, both through narrations of Abu Hurrairah and witnessing narrations from other Companions.
We also see that all but two of the narrations are found in one section of the Musnad of Imam Ahmad, again witnessing the preservation of hadith and that earlier works were faithfully rendered in later documents”
Finally surprise for this moron the Quran itself is simply regarded as a long hadith it has chains and everything (hence the Qirat’s names Asim, Warsh etc.)
So this refutes “points” 1, 2 and 3. And clearly demonstrates this person’s ignorance as ahadith were not “oral”.
Moving on, you say you are not against “Salafi” but throw shade in everyone of your post. So since you are to use “reason” (which is never used in the Quran in this manner btw it is referring to what it speaks of and God’s existence) Let us reason together please explain this ayah using ONLY the Quran:
2:143. I have made you a middle nation, so that you can be witnesses against humanity, and so that the Messenger can be a witness against you. I made the direction of prayer which you used to face, only to test, those who would follow the Messenger from those who would turn on their heels and run away. It was difficult except for those whom God guided. And God would never make your faith go to waste because God’s full of kindness and Forever Merciful to mankind.
Allah says:
“”I made the direction of prayer which you used to face…”
Since we know early Muslims were praying towards Jerusalem and this ayah switches it to Mecca, wherein the Quran does Allah legislate for us to pray towards Jerusalem?
As for your last points from Johnny no name kaffir:
1. He has to disprove these as forgeries when pretty much everybody else in existence says authentic
2. He says nothing other than basically the world should run off his opinion.
Again,, how did the Quran reach us? This actually hurts this fasiq as one can conclude the Quran is corrupt.
Moving on, you are the one making the claim so provide your reference on these alleged burnings. It is “fun” because all these kuffar are the same to me and I will continue to laugh at them even more on Qiyama. As for your red herring challenge, simple question does Allah command us to listen to the Prophet(saw) in the Quran yes or no?
@ Ihsan
Ahh never mind just to move the point forward:
4:66. But no! I swear on your Lord, they have no faith until they make you, the judge in any matters that will sprout up. And find no resistance even in their souls to your decisions.
I’m sorry what was that? You see because hadith rejectors ironically know nothing about the Quran let’s see what Allah says:
4:61. When it’s said: “Come to what God has revealed and to the Messenger,” you see the hypocrites hesitate, turning away from you in hatred and disgust.
4:62. How then, when a disaster hits them because of the consequences of what their own hands have put forward, they then come to you swearing to God: “We only wanted to do good and have some sort of blessing come out of it…”
4:63. God knows what’s in the hearts of these people, so ignore what they say, give them advice and speak to them about themselves using heart penetrating words.
4:64. I didn’t send any Messenger except for him to be OBEYED by God’s permission.
4:65. If only they had come to you when they wronged themselves and begged for God’s forgiveness; and the Messenger had asked forgiveness for them, they would’ve found that God accepts repentance and is Forever Merciful.
4:66. But no! I swear on your Lord, they have no faith until they make you, the judge in any matters that will sprout up. And find no resistance even in their souls to your decisions…
4:69. Whoever obeys God and the Messenger, will be with those He has bestowed His favor on such as the prophets, those who were first and foremost in following the Truth, those who testified to that Truth with their lives and the righteous. What excellent friends they are!
Yeah this WHOLE passage is Allah saying these hadith rejecters are munafiqeen (and I agree 110%)
Ahh for giigles let’s look at what you’re claiming was forged in a visual manner:
Hadith of the two heavy burdens:
http://twelvershia.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Tree-of-Thaqalayn-Chains.pdf
Hadith of the best of this nation after the Prophet is Abu Bakr and Umar:
http://twelvershia.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/Hadith-ul-Afdaliyyah_TreeOfChains.pdf
Pretty crazy right? I know it’s hard to believe but Allah protected His religion and some random fool coming over a 1,000 years later is not the first person to care about preserving the religion.
stewjo004,
I am having trouble to follow your flow of discussion…can you restate in a more clear way rather than a stream of consciousness way while you are having fun or trying to have fun?
I don’t understand how you are responding to the adultery issue.
Let me make it more clear for you.
Imaging that a White person who is a follower of a Prophet is rumored to be a theft.
Than rumors spread.
Verses are revealed that say the the theft should get such and such punishment.
Would it not be odd to restrict the general import of those verses to only Black people?
And especially weird to expect that the people behind the rumor mongering would also interpret it as being restricted to Black people and then stop their rumors?
@ Ihsan
Also, final note, if Al(ra) started collecting ahadith (even though this is not true) this refutes Johnny no name kaffir who claimed: “centuries later”. So I’ll let you work out what happened.
Again this is not serious because I have studied the subject from actual qualified people, not some jack@$$ on a random blog with no scholarly credentials and for some reason, you refuse to.
Studying with people who are declared to be scholars by institution and kindred institutions over the years, even many years from insiders while they and their teachers and the whole system has cult like predisposition to how they are predisposed is less valuable than a less structured but open minded and comprehensive study….and without reading into the Qur’an to develop convenient interpretations.
Remember Allah said the Qur’an is clear.
Still waiting for your responses to most of the questions below which you have not responded to.
Please respond in a cogent manner without stream of consciousness discussion.
——
Before you respond to my answers to your questions, you need to first adequately respond to what I sent and my questions to you….
1. I await your response for the clarification regarding the question on adultery
2. And I also await your response to the scholar’s comments in the link based on his book
3. “Said no scholar ever is not an adequate answer”
…what I originally sent are verifiable or falsifiable facts.
There is not one verse out of the 6,200 verses of the Qur’an where Allah says to interpret His “clear” words through a secondary corpus to be collected later.
****Please provide one verse out of 6,200+ to the contrary****
On the contrary, in many, many, many verses Allah explicitly tells us to ponder on His verses and Allah explicitly tells us that Allah made the Qur’an easy for us to remember and made it clear (for us to understand if we want to understand it).
The Prophet did not commission anyone to collect his hadiths despite him having hundreds of devoted followers and thousands of followers in general.
****Please provide evidence that he (pbuh) did commission a plan to collect all his scattered sayings.
Not one of the first four “rightly guided” caliphs supported a commission.
****Please provide evidence that refutes the above….you should also explain why did Abu Bakr burn his 500 hadith collection and why did Umar make a bonfire for everyones’s hadiths he can get and why he argued against the Prophet (pbuh) request to document something before he died saying the Qur’an is enough (I don’t agree with the behavior that Umar did to the Prophet (pbuh) but it is relevant to my overall point)
There is evidence that Ali ibn Abi Talib unlike Abu Bakr, Umar, and Uthman supported the use of hadiths but as far as I know (please correct me if I am wrong), even he did not make a commission to collect all sayings in a systematic way. (to clarify further Ali focused on the Qur’an and is alleged to have reported (in Shia source but I think there are Sunni sources that would support it) to say that there are many false sayings that are attributed to the Prophet)
Rather than having “fun,” become serious…this is a serious topic.
Regarding your supply of verses for 4:65, there are plenty of responses to the exact point you are trying to develop.
See
–I do not agree with all the responses or with all the scope implied in the responses that attempt to refute this point in 4:65 made by Nouman Ali Khan. Most of the responses are by Quranists and I am not a Quranist.
Add these questions to the list please…I would appreciate your responses as I want to gain in knowledge.
You believe that Allah revealed the Qur’an in multiple readings and not just sensibly one reading.
The Qur’an may be the most self-reverential book on the planet.
And Allah tells us repeatedly that the Qur’an is “clear.”
Is there even one verse out of 6,200+ that tells the reader that there are multiple readings in just one consonantal text?
There are MULTIPLE verses in the Qur’an where God is trying to reassure the Prophet (pbuh) that he is receiving a revelation from God and that he is not bewitched or insane, etc.
Now you think the Prophet later on believed that he was getting multiple ahrufs revealed to him?
Would not the companions who were eager to know what Allah is communicating want to also know the different readings?
What percentage of companions asked the Prophet for the different readings of the verse they heard from the Prophet?
You were earlier I think attacking the credentials of Louay Fatoohi….I am not sure if you were attacking him since you may have been attacking others.
Anyhow, this is his book on the subject
http://www.louayfatoohi.com/books/abrogation-in-the-quran-and-islamic-law/
It is the most comprehensive book on abrogation and how this doctrine evolved.
In his scholarly and extensive survey of all the Arabic literature on it, this doctrine as commonly understood is overall false and developed over time.
In this book, he goes over virtually every hadith on stoning and adultery doing a matn analysis and shows how every hadith has serious problems.
@ Ihsan
1.Surah Nur
The beginning of Surah Nur (which i assume you’re trying to cause doubt about) was NOT revealed because of Aisha’s(ra) slander that starts at ayat 11:
“When that state of Allah’s Messenger (ﷺ) was over, he was smiling and the first word he said, `Aisha! Thank Allah, for Allah has declared your innocence.’ My mother told me to go to Allah’s Messenger (ﷺ) . I replied, ‘By Allah I will not go to him and will not thank but Allah.’ So Allah revealed: “Verily! They who spread the slander are a gang among you . . .” (24.11)”
https://sunnah.com/bukhari/52/25
From Ibn Kathir(rh) on 24:11
“The next ten Ayat were all revealed concerning `A’ishah, the mother of the believers, may Allah be pleased with her, when the people of slander and falsehood among the hypocrites made their accusations against her and spread lies about her. Allah became jealous on her behalf and on behalf of His Prophet , and revealed her innocence to protect the honor of the Messenger of Allah”
http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2441&Itemid=79
So whatever weird analogy bout black and white people you are making, I’m sure it’s been refuted. Moving on.
2. Studying from people who know what they’re talking about
“Studying with people who are declared to be scholars by institution and kindred institutions over the years”
Alright cool keep this same energy when you go to the doctor’s office or require open heart surgery. As you don’t know anything about scholarship pretty much anything that can be debated has and you would be shocked at some scholarly opinions that would be controversial nowadays. The reason you have to go through the “Whoa is me, they can’t see the genius and are so, so oppressive” spill is because you have NO ONE of knowledge supporting you. This is sign two. (Trivia question what was sign one again?) This is what ALL deviants have to do. I hate to tell you but all opinions ain’t equal. So Joey the no name kaffir isn’t going to cut it. Do not try to hide your laziness in studying your religion you claim to believe in. As I tell ANYBODY who is having doubts about something in the deen is to go study it from QUALIFIED people.
3. Ahruf
Several ways to refute this:
A.People even today memorize ahruf (for example I myself can do Surah Ala in two of them). So there is no reason to assume no one memorized others. During the Tabieen era you couldnt even call yourself a scholar without knowing all 7.
B.The Aruf are all equally well attested so why don’t you show your objective standard in determining the “right reading” other than “Well everybody uses Hafs so it must be right!” What “everybody does” means nothing to hadith rejectors as everybody uses ahadith. Its just more inconsistency from the followers of Rashad Khalifa.
C. Ahruf is an attestation of Allah’s book because not only did He make it eloquent once but several times.
4. Louis No Name
I don’t attack these people they attack themselves for speaking without knowledge let’s read the man’s credentials:
“I obtained a BSc in Physics from the College of Sciences, University of Baghdad, in 1984. I received a PhD in Astronomy from the Physics Department, Durham University, in 1998. The title of my thesis was “First Visibility of the Lunar Crescent and Other Problems in Historical Astronomy.”
http://www.louayfatoohi.com/biography/
Notice nope, zilch, nada about studying Islamic sciences. If we were talking about astronomy by all means the man can talk for hours but unfortunately we’re not furthermore:
“I am one of the khalīfas (representatives) of Shaikh Muḥammad al-Muḥammad al-Kasnazān, the Master of Ṭarīqa ʿAliyyah Qādiriyyah Kasnazaniyya.”
Were he conveniently he left a link for us let’s look at the site homepage:
“Ṭarīqa is the spiritual side of Islam. It is the way that links the Muslim spiritually to the spirit of the Prophet (prayer and peace be upon him) and ultimately to the Greatest Spirit, Allah. This link is established through the spiritual touch of the “bayʿa (pledge)” when the person puts his hand in the hand of the Shaikh of Ṭarīqa who is linked to the Prophet.”
Yeah…I’m sure the book is great… Would you like me to recommend some books on hadith from people with Master’s in the subject? Again all this would be settled if you stopped reading EVERY no name deviant and actually studied properly. I mean I gave you the link. All you have to do is literally go take your mouse or finger over it and click it and you can do Madina Univerisity’s curriculum on the subject. That’s how easy it is to gain knowledge nowadays.
Finally I’m going to show the hypocritical nature of your position I was discussing a controversial ayat yesterday I’m sure you know:
4:34. Men are to stand responsible as the maintainers and guardians of women, because God has given one extra over the other and because they spend their own money on them. Righteous women are devout and keep safe what God has ordered them to protect when not seen. As for the ones who you fear raise themselves up above this, first remind them gently, then ignore them while you’re in your bedroom and then you may tap them. But if they stop and start to listen to you again, you have no right to act against them. ˹Remember that˺ God ˹alone˺ is the Most High and Great.
Now “Darhaba” ONLY makes sense in Arabic grammar to be hit as the suffix does not allow for a metaphorical reading. By itself this verse is CLEAR CUT. But wait let’s look at some ahadith:
‘A’isha reported that Allah’s Messenger (ﷺ) never beat anyone with his hand, neither a woman nor a servant, but only, in the case when he had been fighting in the cause of Allah and he never took revenge for anything unless the things made inviolable by Allah were made violable; he then took revenge for Allah, the Exalted and Glorious.
https://sunnah.com/muslim/43
Narrated `Abdullah bin Zam`a:
The Prophet (ﷺ) forbade laughing at a person who passes wind, and said, “How does anyone of you beat his wife as he beats the stallion camel and then he may embrace (sleep with) her?” And Hisham said, “As he beats his slave”
https://sunnah.com/bukhari/78/72
On at least two separate occasions the Prophet separated a man from his wife because he struck her.
Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu’minin:
Habibah daughter of Sahl was the wife of Thabit ibn Qays Shimmas He beat her and broke some of her part. So she came to the Prophet (ﷺ) after morning, and complained to him against her husband. The Prophet (ﷺ) called on Thabit ibn Qays and said (to him): Take a part of her property and separate yourself from her. He asked: Is that right, Messenger of Allah? He said: Yes. He said: I have given her two gardens of mine as a dower, and they are already in her possession. The Prophet (ﷺ) said: Take them and separate yourself from her.
https://sunnah.com/abudawud/13
Ali ibn Abu Talib reported: The wife of Al-Waleed ibn Uqbah came to the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, and she complained to him saying, “O Messenger of Allah! Indeed, Al-Waleed has beaten me!” The Prophet said, “Say to him: he has protected me.” She did not stay but for a while until she returned and she said, “He did not give me anything except more beatings!” The Prophet tore a piece of cloth from his shirt and he said, “Say to him: Verily, the Messenger of Allah has given me protection.” She did not stay but for a while until she returned and she said, “He did not give me anything except more beatings!” The Prophet raised his hands and he said, “O Allah, you must deal with Al-Waleed for he has sinned against me twice.”
https://abuaminaelias.com/dailyhadithonline/2013/01/17/hadith-on-women-the-prophet-protects-a-woman-from-her-abusive-husband/
Fatima bint Qais (Allah be pleased with her) reported that her husband divorced her with three, pronouncements and Allah’s Messenger (ﷺ) made no provision for her lodging and maintenance allowance. She (further said):
Allah’s Messenger (ﷺ) said to me: When your period of ‘Idda is over, inform me. So I informed him. (By that time) Mu’awiya, Abu Jahm and Usama b. Zaid had given her the proposal of marriage. Allah’s Messenger (ﷺ) said: So far as Mu’awiya is concerned, he is a poor man without any property. So far as Abu Jahm is concerned, he is a great beater of women, but Usama b. Zaid… She pointed with her hand (that she did not approve of the idea of marrying) Usama. But Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon himn) said: Obedience to Allah and obedience to His Messenger is better for thee. She said: So I married him, and I became an object of envy.
https://sunnah.com/muslim/18
Narrated Mu’awiyah al-Qushayri:
I went to the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) and asked him: What do you say (command) about our wives? He replied: Give them food what you have for yourself, and clothe them by which you clothe yourself, and do not beat them, and do not revile them.
https://sunnah.com/abudawud/12
Iyas bin ‘Abdullah (May Allah be pleased with him) reported:
Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said, “Do not beat Allah’s bondwomen.” When ‘Umar (May Allah be pleased with him) came to Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) and complained saying: “The women have become very daring towards their husbands,” He (ﷺ) gave permission to beat them. Then many women went to the family of the Messenger of Allah (wives) complaining of their husbands, and he (the Prophet (ﷺ)) said, “Many women have gone round Muhammad’s family complaining of their husbands. Those who do so, that is, those who take to beating their wives, are not the best among you”.
https://sunnah.com/riyadussaliheen/1/279
So using your beliefs we should throw ALL those out right? I mean it changes the fundamental meaning so these were obviously forged right? I eagerly look forward to your objective answer.
Oh and one more “gem” from Louay Fatoohi’s teacher:
“One of the gifts of the blessed month of Ramadan is that on the 17th of the holy month, which is the anniversary of the day of distinguishing between good and evil when Allah made His religion prevail and aided His Prophet and (ṣallā Allah ʿalaihi wa sallam) in the Battle of Badr, our Present Master Sayyid Shaikh Muḥammad al-Muḥammad al-Kasnazān al-Ḥusseinī (may Allah sanctify his secret) received great good tidings. He saw in a vision that he was visiting the holy shrines in Kirpchina. The area was illuminated and the green flags were raised in celebration of his visit. In a spiritual atmosphere filled with happiness and good news, he was received by the Shaikhs of Ṭarīqa who gave him the good news that he is the khalīfa (representative) of Allah on earth. This is the highest degree of wilāya (sainthood), because it is the status of the greatest representation, which is referred to in Allah’s words: “I am going to put on earth a khalīfa (representative)” (2.30). It includes godly good tidings and emanations and the divine sciences that Allah mentioned in this verse: “He taught Adam all the names” (2.31)
This godly gift and Muḥammadan present that our Shaikh has been given will have a great effect on the khalīfas and dervishes. It will help them in observing the honourable Prophetic Shari’a…”
http://kasnazanway.com/press-releases/shaikh-muhammad-al-muhammad-is-called-the-khalifa-successor-of-allah/
Who needs credentials when you’re apparently receiving wahy. Those evil “institutions” won’t let this guy in because they’re soooo jealous. 🤭
stewjo004
“So whatever weird analogy bout black and white people you are making, I’m sure it’s been refuted. Moving on.”
No, you are too presumptious to assume it has been refuted.
I am not asking your confidence whether it has been refuted.
I am asking you to explain how it is possible, let alone probable.
Verses 11-31 in Surah Noor are specifically about that incident.
But the beginning of Surah Noor was revealed at about the same time and it contiguous with the verses.
When Aisha is married, you think it is possible that the audience of the verses will not find it bizarre that the punishment is restricted to non-married people?
So first attend to what is first asked and then move on.
I await your response.
@ Ihsan
I’m sorry you’re having reading comprehension issues ayah 1-10 were not revealed about the incident so your whole (quite frankly nonsensical) point is pretty much gone as you have nothing definite to say when was the passages’s revelation. You made an argument made on an incorrect premise so let’s move along to discussing about the man I’m supposed to learn hadith from whose teacher is Allah’s Khalifah appointed by a vision. I’m sure they’re is so much from this well of knowledge to drink from.
According to the “consensus of opinion,” this surah was not revealed in substantially disparate times but was revealed all in a close proximity of time.
Thus, it is difficult for me to reconcile how in the world could the recipients at that time interpret the punishment for adultery to be restricted to stoning when the Qur’an does not give such a restriction and when the rumors of a scandal around that time concerned a married women.
Even if the first 10 verses were not revealed at the same time as the next 20 verses, it was awfully close.
From http://www.islamicity.com/quran/maududi/mau24.html
“Name
This Surah takes its name, An Nur, from verse 35.
Period of Revelation
The consensus of opinion is that it was sent down after the Campaign against Bani al-Mustaliq and this is confirmed by vv. 11-20 that deal with the incident of the “Slander”, which occurred during that Campaign.”
@ Ihsan
The hadith I quoted makes it clear they were not sent down together and starts at ayah 11 so Maududi’s opinion does not override that.
@stewjo004
Mawdudi does not give his opinion. He says this is the consensus.
i dont have time to fund your education so if you certain that he is a broken record but you are willing to have an open mind and follow the evidence wherever it goes, then buy his book to respond on this thread.
It may be inconvenient to see his lecture since his reasoning is sound and yours is acrobatic theatrics.
Ok, so we disagree with my first point and you are not willing to even see the lecture to comment on the second point.
Moving on…
You provided 4:65 as the Quranic evidence…I provided a treasure trove of responses (not that I agree with all of them or to the level that they articulate them to) to 4:65…respond when you can to some of those responses within the next few days if possible.
But for a more concrete issue…
Time to respond to
–Did Prophet Muhammad commission a collection
–Did his (pbuh) righteous caliphs commission a collection.
@ Ihsan
Oh and one last thing my wife wanted to chime in real quick and refute the “the Quran says its clear” mantra of hadith rejectors, ahem:
3:7. He revealed the Scripture to you with CLEAR verses in it. They are the Scripture’s foundation while other ˹parts˺ are VAGUE. But, those whose hearts are deviant look to cause conflicts by only following WHAT ISN’t CLEAR, as they pursue hidden meanings and interpretations. But only people who possess intellect and are able to control their emotions will understand, no one knows their real meaning except God. And ˹so˺ those whose knowledge is deep say: “We believe in it because it’s all from our Lord.”
And boom there goes that argument Allah says there is vague ayat and so once again these kuffar are shown to ironically know nothing about the Quran.
I don’t understand the point….I myself was saying that Allah emphasizes the clarity of the Qur’an and thus my point of not “misusing and abusing” the clear Qur’an by requiring it to only attain to a meaning when squeezed through an interpretation of a hodge podge of oral narrations which the Prophet did not commission a collection of, nor did his “rightly guided” caliphs. And for which we has scant information on the context of many reported hadiths and scant information on most of the narrators.
So we have a solid disagreement on the time period and the implications of that time period on understanding how the hadith contradicts the Quranic punishment of adultery.
Ok, let’s move on.
The second question I had was your issue with not wanting to give any time to someone who is not a scholar as interpreted by you and your sectarians.
So here is a scholar with a vast amount of scholarship.
Respond to his talk based on his book.
The lecture starts around the 6:00 minute mark.
Take your time but hopefully you can respond within a couple days at least.
@ Ihsan
Not that difficult to understand:
Hadith rejectors argue (by twisting) the Quran calls itself clear and thus there is no need for the Prophet(saw) The Quran itself says it has ambiguous verses in it thus refuting their position that it is “Clear” and does not require anything else. I’ve noticed hadith rejectors usually don’t read the Quran hence why these type of arguments are made.
Finally, the rest of your post is simply incorrect:
1. The Prophet(saw) commissioned collecting his ahadith
This is clearly mentioned if you want to continue this line of reasoning using your same line of logic go destroy ALL the mushaf you have as he(saw) did not commission it being collected between two covers and everyone, for the most part, memorized it. Ahadith were already compiled they were not codifiedied so please stop trying to make it sound like telephone.
2. The Khalifah did to a degree
You have already conceded Ali(ra) did and have failed to provide any reliable reference for anyone else. Furthermore, there were Sahaba with hadith collections further refuting this unsubstantiated claim.
3. Hadith in line of interpretation
You simply do not know how to conduct tafsir (I can tell because you refuse to study). Hadith are VERY rarely used the way hadith rejectors claim and in all honesty, there is only ONE time off the top of my head of this happening and that is the case of stoning so this is just an emotional exaggeration. Again because these people never read the Quran these arguments get through.
4. The Quran is a hadith!!!
Aha! I bet you and hadith rejectors didn’t know this. Whenever they make their stupid arguments like “The sunnah was mass transmitted throughout the Ummah blah, blah, blah” What they’re trying to get around is it is a “chain of narration” if you will back to the Prophet(saw). The Quran is considered in Islamic scholarship just a glorified hadith, follow:
Allah-> Jibreel-> Muhammad(saw)-> Sahabi (mostly Uthman) -> Tabi -> The rest of the Ummah
ALL of Islam is a hadith, my dude. It is basically the equivalent of arguing “All actions are by their intentions” is the only hadith I’ll follow the Quran is forged! Again Hadith rejectors CANNOT get around how the Quran reached us living a 1000+ years later. Hence the argument the same way you got the Quran is the same way you got ahadith. I wish these people would stop trying to act like they believe and just full-on apostate so we can all move on.
@ Ihsan
I don’t care about this kaffirs lecture send me the book and I’lll formally respond. Even though I already know his arguments hes going to make because all thee people are the same broken records just showing their ignorance of Islamic texts.
“Again Hadith rejectors CANNOT get around how the Quran reached us living a 1000+ years later.”
There is not one unequivocal verse out of 6,200+ verses in the Qur’an that says for us to follow the Qur’an because of its transmission.
But the transmission of the Qur’an is vastly different than the error prone—distortion prone— and context deficient—way of the hadith that was unauthorized by the Prophet (pbuh).
Also, perhaps I missed but I did not see your responses to what I sent a while ago regarding this point…
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=2758.0
@ Ihsan
Oh btw,
“The second question I had was your issue with not wanting to give any time to someone who is not a scholar as interpreted by you and your sectarians.”
No, he is not a scholar by ANYBODIES standard as he is not trained in Islamic sciences. By this reasoning I’m a brain surgeon Ihsan let me perform on you.
@ Ihsan
Also, final note there is no “Sectarian bias” its a bunch of unknowledgeable people getting together and spreading falsehood. Just so we can eliminate the claim of “sectarian bis”
I can’t think of a single time I have ever agreed with bin Baz in fiqh and pretty much COMPLETELY condemn his political opinions.
I have straight up said Munnajid (aka Islam Qand A guy) is wrong on issues.
I have disagreed with ibn Uthyameen’s opinion on issues.
If you ever watch me respond to other kuffar I use a variety of scholars spanning the centuries I follow the evidence, not people. These fools you bring are nothing hence why they are dismissed accordingly.
Regardless, but if quacks like a duck, looks like a duck, swims like a duck…then it is duck.
You can have an understanding that such and such is correct way and such and such is not.
But no, you give the classic operandi taught by many Salafi scholars to attack someone’s credentials when you cannot attack their arguments, don’t concede an inch no matter how much evidence supports the other side, and so on.
So if you conduct like a sectarian in many different aspects, you are a sectarian.
It would be against my conscience to lie and say you are not.
Of course, Allah knows best. This is my judgement based on my limited knowledge based on your reactions.
Regarding the lecture that you don’t want to see,
I don’t have free money to send you the book but I found this abridged form of this book…
https://www.academia.edu/7120118/Authentication_of_Hadith_Redefining_the_Criteria_-_Israr_Ahmad_Khan
and below is a book review…
https://hadithstudiesblog.files.wordpress.com/2015/05/book_review2.pdf
@stewjo004
“You made an argument made on an incorrect premise so let’s move along to discussing about the man I’m supposed to learn hadith from whose teacher is Allah’s Khalifah appointed by a vision. I’m sure they’re is so much from this well of knowledge to drink from.”
1. Rashad Khalifa is not by any stretch of the imagination the only one against hadith.
The one who made the most impact against the hadith was the second caliph Umar Ibn Al-Khattab.
Even Al-Shafii says that many Scholars of the Qur’an did not agree with the Ahl al hadith approach…such as those called by their opponents as Mutazilites (but whose real name was Party of Tawhid and Justice) and there were probably more groups that also predated Shafii like the Mutazilites.
If it was not for crazy and fanatic and despotic caliphs like Al-Mutawakkil, these specific groups would have still continued.
2. I told you before that I don’t follow Rashad Khalifa…nor does Joseph Islam (I don’t even follow Joseph Islam since although I don’t see evidence for the vast collections of hadith to have any legitimate authorization from the Prophet to speak confidently in his name, I do believe that hadith are very important for optimizing ritual matters (although not essential as sunnah has preserved rituals to a substantial degree apart from hadiths) and fiqh matters and for helping to fill in the blank of sirah (which can be constructed to some degree from the Qur’an itself), and perhaps some other important issues.
3. But I do have a request…you only expose your lack of clarity and your preconceived conceptions whenever you make such a claim…so my request is for you to copy and paste the ridiculous quote above and put it in every subsequent response in this thread.
1.Maududi’s opinion/ mistake
Maududi HAS given his opinion because AS YOU READ verses 11 forward was revealed about the incident. “Consensus” does not overrule “text” and I am arguing he has made a mistake. Unless you can bring a text that indicates otherwise the point is made on a faulty premise.
2.”Responses”
Uhh no you didn’t. You have not countered the Quran saying explicitly parts of it are vague nor have you countered Allah calling hadith rejectors munfiqeen.
3. Your questions
–Did Prophet Muhammad commission a collection
Yes
–Did his (pbuh) righteous caliphs commission a collection.
Yes
4. Buying some ignorant kaffir’s book
I am not wasting my hard earned money on nonsense. I would rather go buy a bible and the Talmud (which has more authenticity in it) then that no name’s book. I am 100% positive it is the EXACT same argument the rest of these ignorant deviants make. I don’t even buy books from scholars I like what makes you think I’m going to buy some laymens that I have more knowledge than? Reading the small synopsis basically just pick and choose what makes you feel good and screw having any standards.
5. More deficient blah, blah blah
No people just lied more on ahadith as they were easier to forge because the average joe doesn’t know ahadith.
6. Can’t attack their arguments
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!! Oh that was hilarious, thank you for the laugh. You quote men you claim to be having “visions” of being appointed as the Caliph and then wonder why I am attacking credentials. Guess what in scholarship that is a legit form of criticism for example when Ehrman attacked Dorothy Milne Murdock (aka Acharya S) for having no scholarly credentials as did Carrier in his many refutations. Are they all “Salafis” (ironically the actual ad hominem) too? Again, let me perform brain surgery on you if you hold to this opinion Ihsan. You won’t because it would be retarded to let someone who has not studied neurology do it. Now come on make the link I know you can do it. Also as a note I couldn’t give two flying rabbits butts what your opionion of me is. I’ll go with pretty much every scholar’s opinion ever you go with the dude claiming to be getting visions from Allah about what the Shariah is. Just because you seem to be in denial about who your sources are here are the links again:
“I am one of the khalīfas (representatives) of Shaikh Muḥammad al-Muḥammad al-Kasnazān, the Master of Ṭarīqa ʿAliyyah Qādiriyyah Kasnazaniyya.”
http://www.louayfatoohi.com/biography/
our Present Master Sayyid Shaikh Muḥammad al-Muḥammad al-Kasnazān al-Ḥusseinī (may Allah sanctify his secret) received great good tidings. He saw in a vision that he was visiting the holy shrines in Kirpchina. The area was illuminated and the green flags were raised in celebration of his visit. In a spiritual atmosphere filled with happiness and good news, he was received by the Shaikhs of Ṭarīqa who gave him the good news that he is the khalīfa (representative) of Allah on earth. This is the highest degree of wilāya (sainthood), because it is the status of the greatest representation, which is referred to in Allah’s words: “I am going to put on earth a khalīfa (representative)” (2.30). It includes godly good tidings and emanations and the divine sciences that Allah mentioned in this verse: “He taught Adam all the names” (2.31)
This godly gift and Muḥammadan present that our Shaikh has been given will have a great effect on the khalīfas and dervishes. It will help them in observing the honourable Prophetic Shari’a…”
http://kasnazanway.com/press-releases/shaikh-muhammad-al-muhammad-is-called-the-khalifa-successor-of-allah/
Come on, be proud of your peoples lol.
7. Mutazilah
For the love of all that is good please…stop talking about Islamic history without studying it. I’m going to keep this simple; raise your hand if you have ever spoken with a Mu’tazilah before? (Raises hand)
8. Follower of Rashad Khalifah
As you said if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck…
1. The onus is on you to show that the time for revelation for verses 1-10 is a long time before or long time after the revelation for verses 11 to about 30 or so.
Although statement by Mawdudi is not further substantiated, same general topic…verses very close together…same surah…so onus is on you to show the verses are far apart…
for if they are not far apart….then it makes no sense why people would perceive “zina” as restricted to only those who are not married
even if the verses are far apart (which mostly likely they are not far apart but instead revealed together or very close together), still it would be weird as Qur’an itself does not restrict it but it is way, way weirder if verses close together given the incident of rumor with Aisha and the lost necklace.
2. Too many posts….I lost track what you are talking about…explain more clearly with reference to what #2 is
3. You said Yes that Prophet commissioned collection of hadith…provide evidence….I will wait for it
You said Yes that righteous caliphs commissioned it….I will wait for it
4. Is the best you can respond to the links I send…especially the abridged book?
“Reading the small synopsis basically just pick and choose what makes you feel good and screw having any standards.”
So you cannot refute it?
5. Please refer to what #5 is about…too many posts and hard to find the post you are replying to.
6. What is your point?
7. What is your point?
8. No it does not quack and look the same…but thanks for again saying so to reveal more about you than about me.
My view is not Quranist but anti-Quranist and anti-Hadith is Revelation but more along the following two articles….
https://primaquran.wordpress.com/
https://primaquran.wordpress.com/2019/08/08/the-soundness-of-the-prima-quran-view/
Again, I don’t agree with everything on this website and with a few articles, I have a clear disagreement but the two links above are more along my general approach…although with some differences.
But as I requested, please keep saying I follow Rashad in every post to expose your impulsive sectarian ignorance.
I await your responses for all the above….especially for what you claim as Yes for commission set up by Prophet (pbuh) and by the “righteous caliphs”
Here is good series for all on hadith….
https://asharisassemble.com/hadith/
@ Ihsan
1.Burden
Do you know what onus means? I have proven my point by quoting Sahih Muslim and Ibn Kathir which states ayah 11 forward is about the slander incident. You’re the one saying Sahih Muslim is wrong and quoted Madudi who gave no evidence for his statement. Quoting something that gives no reference is the same as quoting no refrence. This is purely conjecture on your part regarding 1-10 unless you can provide something to prove Sahih Muslim wrong.
2. Response
Not that difficult to understand point 2’s context. You claimed to counter something I said when you didn’t.
3. Commission
Prophet Muhammad(saw)
https://sunnah.com/abudawud/26/6
https://sunnah.com/abudawud/41/12
Now that was sufficient but we know Sahaba regularly kept ahadith books:
https://sunnah.com/abudawud/26/10
https://sunnah.com/bukhari/3/55
Also again you have conceded about Ali(ra)
4. Pick and choose guy
What is there to refute? Its simply a glorified emotional tirade. He has presented no evidence and just says pick hadith that make you feel good and reject ones that don’t.
5. Deficiency
You argued the process for hadith wasn’t as stringent as Quran. I simply refuted that by saying that’s nit the case the average Muslim simply knows Quran better so deviants (like the men you suggesst we learn from) forged hadith more. Don’t get it twisted people have tried with the Quran.
As for the next parts my apologies you can’t keep up with the arguments YOU’RE making.
6. Vision man
You made it seem like I was just attacking your sources unjustly as a “Salafi” when reality is that is a legit criticism in scholarship period especially when one claims to receive visions from Gid appointing him to be the Caliph.
7. Mutazilah
You attempted to ignorantly speak on Mu’tazilah beliefs and Islamic history I simply asked have you ever met one as yours truly has.
A.Mu’tazilah still accept ahadith. They simply add ridiculous restrictions when they go against their “rational” beliefs.
B.Nobody oppressed them they were popular among the rulers never the people. The main reason is because they were attempting to create an almost papacy with the Caliphate by saying the Quran was created.
8. Follow of Rashad
You can’t be mad at me that the dude who founded all this claimed prophethood (hmm funny how all the hadith rejector leaders seem to do that) Anyway if by “sectarian” you mean “Muslim” then I guess I am.
9. Further no names
Man this is a real fitna for you. Several subpoints:
-Prima
A.No schooling (again)
B. Made purely of a “Middle ground fallacy” aka “argument of moderation”
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/middle-ground
C. Emotional tirade to catch other people ignorant of Islamic sciences like them.l
Such ignorant answers….it amazes me.
1. NOT one person says that verses in Surah Noor were revealed far apart.
Onus on you to prove how verses 1 – 10 would be so far apart that the residents of Madina involved in pushing rumors of scandal would suddenly forget that Aisha was married.
All residents of Madina (not just the few spreading the rumor) would find the idea that zina is only applying to the unmarried to be laughable.
2. Don’t have time to go through the different posts to see what I am countering. Tell me if you care.
3. Laughable to put this as sufficient evidence.
First of all, look up what commission means.
Secondly, out of tens of thousands of hadiths, would we not expect at least hundreds of hadiths where Prophet is calling for recording of hadiths.
We would expect him (pbuh) to say in many of the hadiths…spread this to all…and so on.
It’s like finding only several statements out of the tens of thousands of statements from a politician that he is running for PResident….it’s ludricous….
Even if the PRophet never said such things, it would not be hard to find such things generated to give legitimacy when so many pious wise men were against the bidah of raising something unauthorized to be virtually at level of God’s word.
Abdullah ibn Amr Al Aas was a nice person, may Allah reward him. Ameen.
But he was not a caliph and he did not do a commission.
Again read up what a commision is…something that leaders do.
This is all so weak that I have lost the will to spend time on the rest…I will pick up when I have time.
@ Ihsan
Yes, I agree your ignorance is truly amazing as you do not even know the basics of Islam may Allah guide you to the religion. Ameen:
1. Onus
You are making the claim that Muslim is wrong so the onus is on you to prove your claim as I have provided proof. Quoting something that gives no reference is the same as quoting no reference. You clearly saw Sahih Muslim said 11 forward is when those ayah were revealed. Also, the hypocrisy of your methodology is showing again as NOT one (learned) person says that hadith is not to be used. Also on top of that, Ibn Kathir (an actual scholar) says the same thing as Sahih Muslim so you have yet again said something untrue (this must be a real fitna for you)
2. Your laziness
Again demonstrating your complete laziness (which is why you refuse to properly study your religion) simply use ctr F. But thank you demonstrating one of the core problems here besides your blind following and repeating everything you hear.
3. Your idiocy (and reality kufr)
Even if ONE command happened it happened. He lifted the prohibition and gave another person permission to write his (saw) command. Now, what is his command? Hmmmm…Oh, a hadith. Why don’t you show me where he (saw) “commissioned” the writing of the Quran into one book?
‘
(Also side tangent commission means “an authorization or command to act in a prescribed manner or to perform prescribed acts” https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/commission rolls eyes)
4. You lying once again
“…so many pious wise men were against the bidah of raising something unauthorized to be virtually at level of God’s word.”
You have once again made a claim with no evidence (despite multiple times being asked for it) and to be honest have the trait of a liar in Islam. I know you don’t respect or believe in the Prophet(saw) but he said:
‘It is enough of a lie for a man that he narrates everything he hears’.
https://sunnah.com/muslim/introduction/10
And lol so now that it has been PROVEN that Sahaba kept ahadith books now none of them are no good? Hahahahaha this is truly hilarious let’s not accept a thing from them then and throw the Qur’an out as well! Man the fanfiction hadith rejectors live in is truly entertaining if it wasn’t so ignorant.
5. Getting out of the kitchen
Yeah, I know you have no energy to respond because you can’t as my points are obvious for anyone with an education.
Dude its not a problem with hadith it is ENTIRELY your iman and you not really believing in Islam.
Wow.
With all that writing, you did not provide any substance, only your fluff.
Stop wasting time of readers…..if you are going to put something down, make it provide substance either for or against an argument.
I think the only wasting readers’ time is Ihsan. Making blank statements with no evidence is pretty much a waste of everyone’s time.
@ QB
My sentiments exactly.
I definitely do not agree with the Quranist approach of David Namuh since I am Qur’an-First not Qur’an Only advocate but there are some words of wisdom that rattle those who are not searching for the truth but instead sectarian…..
We must remember that we worship God, not the doctrines that evolved and developed into a sect.
But people cannot see that always…..
To those who want to seek the truth and not misuse and abuse the Qur’an….enjoy the refreshing breeze below….
May God guide the stubborn who become enraged, not grateful, when directed to a closer approach to the truth.
(Again I disagree with the Quranist approach and I find the title to be exaggerated and thus not completely accurate but still is instructive and the title does have some truth in it)
from
https://www.facebook.com/notes/david-namuh/hadith-has-nothing-in-common-with-the-quran/2203016909978974/
Hadith has nothing in common with the Quran
DAVID NAMUH·TUESDAY, OCTOBER 2, 2018·READING TIME: 3 MINUTES
There is an often repeated flawed logic employed by the Hadith heavy sects. The claim is that since both the Quran and Hadith were passed on to us by the same group of people, hence both must be equal in importance. And that the preservation of the meaning of the Quran is somehow tied to these people is obviously just that, flawed. It is also argued that the mode of preservation of both the Quran and the Hadith is the same. Not even close.
The biggest difference between the Quran and Hadith is that Quran is one revealed book, compiled and completed under the supervision of the Prophet of God. Hadith literature consists of dozens of unrevealed books compiled and mostly left uncompleted during a course of almost a thousand years. And most importantly the Hadith collections and their verification was not supervised by the Prophet of God.
Unlike the Quran, less than a dozen scattered reports out of several thousand can be classified equal to the evidence of the Quranic standard. As per the rules of “science of Hadith” each and every verse of the Quran will have to be and is classified as mutawatir (reported amass) and bil lafz (verbatim) and Sahih (Authentic) When you compare this to the reports ascribed to the Prophet of God, we find that less than a dozen reports can be classified as agreed upon mutawatir and even less when you add the Sahih condition to it. And finally the number drops to half a dozen or so when you add the bil lafz constraint to it.
The other flaw in the argument is that God explicitly took upon Himself to preserve the Quran and not any other source of Deen. This fact remains intact in spite of the new slogan of “why would God preserve the Quran and not its meaning”. To assume that Hadith literature gives meaning to the words of God is not only theologically problematic but also historically plain wrong. Not to mention the fact that the premier compilation of Bukhari is completely silent on a full 28 chapters of the Quran.
Instead we are greeted with these words ” No Hadith were mentioned here”. Hence, if the meaning of 28 chapters can be understood without the supposed preservation of the meaning, I think it is safe to say we will manage without it for the rest as well. Even the chapters that are covered, typically more than half of the verses are not “explained” by Bukhari’s collection.
Here is the complete list of Surah Bukhari washed his hands off, some explanation indeed; 23, 27, 29, 35, 51, 57, 58, 64, 67, 69, 70, 73, 76, 81, 82, 86, 88, 89, 90, 94, 100, 101, 103, 104, 105, 106, 107, and 109
Another clear flaw is that if both were to be considered equal in any terms then why is it that the Quran was passed on to us verbatim, as I already mentioned, by the same group of people (I say, group, because it was not always the same players, very important to note) but the same group mysteriously had bouts of memory leaks while reporting the Hadith.
The most important flaw in the Hadith books is that there are no contradictions in the Quran while scores in the Hadith literature. This particular point can be demonstrated with ease in spite of the traditionalist’s word twisting and subjectivity. If one were to focus on those reports that reference measurable quantities or clearly distinguishable elements like left and right, 10 or 13 etc. the contradictions are stalk.
No it is not very complicated to figure out all this.
Last but not least, the obvious thing to note is the misdirection in the claim that the same people passed down the Hadith and the Quran, hence the question; if one were to assume that the plan was to use the same people to preserve the Quran and Hadith then why didn’t the Prophet of God use Abu Hurairah or Anas ibn Malik or Abdullah ibn Umar or his wife Aisha to write down the Quran? After all, more than half of Bukhari’s compilation consists of these four.
Conclusion Quran and Hadith are poles apart.
@ Ihsan
To begin let’s not say your a “Quran first” as that’s not true. EVERY Muslim is Quran first you are advocating for picking and choosing what you want from deen.
Next, I have refuted this kaffir’s ENTIRE 100-page paper on this site when somebody else tried to use so I would recommend you never bring him up again lol.
Let’s see your refutation….
@ Ihsan
What this kaffir’s 100 pg book or this crap article?
I was referring to “refutation” but let’s see both in order to make an assessment of which parts you refute and which parts you fail to refute.
@ Ihsan
I don’t know where it was it was in the comment section somewhere on the blog, so I’ll just do this one:
“The biggest difference between the Quran and Hadith is that Quran is one revealed book, compiled and completed under the supervision of the Prophet of God.”
So literally his first statement is incorrect. The Quran was NOT:
1.A whole book (it was written on fragments like shoulder bone, palm leaves, slabs of slate and VERY rarely animal skin)
2. It was NEVER “compiled” (i.e. gathered together) during the time of the Prophet(saw).
“mostly left uncompleted during a course of almost a thousand years. And most importantly the Hadith collections and their verification was not supervised by the Prophet of God”
Again this is incorrect and he shows he has neither knowledge of Quran or ahadith compilation. To begin:
1.Compilation of ahadith did not take “almost a thousand years”, compilation was done during the Sahaba’s time (along with rules such as isnad and rijal) Codification (again there’s a BIG difference between these and he doesn’t appear to know the difference) with scholars like Bukhari was completed in 200 years. In order to “codify” you have to have material to begin with. This is one of the major misconceptions that Muslims have is that Bukhari compiled ahadith (he did not) most of his work is compiled from other scholars books and even from a historical stand point are independently attested to. (For example Kab ibn Ashraf’s assassination)
2. The Quran being gathered under one book was not supervised by the Prophet(saw) so lets throw out all Mushafs and Surah orders (we can’t verify this is correct)
“As per the rules of “science of Hadith” each and every verse of the Quran will have to be and is classified as mutawatir (reported amass) and bil lafz (verbatim) and Sahih (Authentic) When you compare this to the reports ascribed to the Prophet of God, we find that less than a dozen reports can be classified as agreed upon mutawatir and even less when you add the Sahih condition to it. And finally the number drops to half a dozen or so when you add the bil lafz constraint to it.”
1.He already bit himself as he has admitted the Quran is a hadith.
2. He is misleading with his statement “agreed upon Mutawatir” because something being “mass reported” is subjective. How many chains must you have to consider something “mass reported” 3, 4,6,10 etc? Furthermore, he has another misleading statement about “verbatim”. Many times you have ahadith that have the report or what the Prophet(saw) saying as same thing but a synonym is used so for example “stood up”, “arise”, “ascended” etc. None of these change the meaning but even if wjat the Prophet said is the same it won’t be counted as “verbatim”. Even then what about the dozenS of reports that are verbatim like the analysis done between the Sahifa, Muwatta and Bukhari?
“The other flaw in the argument is that God explicitly took upon Himself to preserve the Quran and not any other source of Deen. This fact remains intact in spite of the new slogan of “why would God preserve the Quran and not its meaning”. To assume that Hadith literature gives meaning to the words of God is not only theologically problematic but also historically plain wrong. Not to mention the fact that the premier compilation of Bukhari is completely silent on a full 28 chapters of the Quran.”
Alrighty:
1.Bukhari is not our only hadith book so again this is misleading (starting to see a trend?) 27, 29, 35, 51, 57, 58, 64, 67, 70, 73, 94,105 , 106 and 109 ALL have ahadith associated with them in other books. And this is not counting explanations from the Sahaba or their students. AND keep in mind we’re not even counting just ANYTHING without isnad etc being said about an ayah or I have no doubt you would pretty much have the entire Quran.
2. Which brings up the next point pretty much all of these suwar listed by him are short or extremely short and are pretty self explanatory so nobody is going to ask about them all like that (I just sat there and read them all, it’s mostly threats to Quraish, descriptions of Jannah/Jahannam or stories of the prophets) The ones not associated with a hadith at a cursory glance (as there could be more I just didn’t check thoroughly) are:
(23) Muminoon
(69) Haqq
(81) Insan
(82) Takwir
(86) Tariq
(88) Ghasheeya
(90) Balad
(100) Adiyat
(101) Qariah
(103) Asr
(104) Humaza
(107) Maoon
Which seems like a “lot” but these are barring like 3 of them 3-10 verses and is probably less than 3-4 pages with like 2 of them being the first two listed.
3. He has completely misunderstood how ahadith preserve application of the Quran. Hadith are “snapshots” of the Seerah, by reading the Seerah we understand the context of what the Quran is even taking about and it changes the fundamental understanding (Imran, Tauba and Hadid are good examples of this)
“The most important flaw in the Hadith books is that there are no contradictions in the Quran while scores in the Hadith literature. This particular point can be demonstrated with ease in spite of the traditionalist’s word twisting and subjectivity. If one were to focus on those reports that reference measurable quantities or clearly distinguishable elements like left and right, 10 or 13 etc. the contradictions are stalk.
No it is not very complicated to figure out all this.”
Again first off people accuse the Quran of contradictions but we do this thing called “reconciliation”. Also keep in mind these people are remembering things that happened decades ago so sometimes they do mess up things like numbers but again this is a handful of ahadith and not the main body. Also this does not change the fact that Sahaba collected and kept ahadith books which is devastating in this discussion.
“if one were to assume that the plan was to use the same people to preserve the Quran and Hadith then why didn’t the Prophet of God use Abu Hurairah or Anas ibn Malik or Abdullah ibn Umar or his wife Aisha to write down the Quran? After all, more than half of Bukhari’s compilation consists of these four.
Conclusion Quran and Hadith are poles apart.”
Uhhh..no? First off, “the same people” means Sahaba and their students. Next, since he doesn’t believe in ahadith how does he know their not the same?
As for why the Prophet(saw) didn’t use them again he didn’t use anybody as it was never gathered into one text during his lifetime. The correct question is why didn’t Abu Bakr(ra) use them and one can’t claim to know the intention of a person living over 1,000 years ago. (Also notice he has to attack Sahaba because there’s no doubt they transmitted ahadith) A quick answer is all these people later on became teachers which is why they transmit so many ahadith.
So with that being said this fasiq has now been refuted a 2nd time now and keep in mind I am weak in ahadith with only an introductory course (I actually focus on fiqh and Quran) and he is being smashed so what do you think somebody who specializes in them is going to do? Again learn from people who have knowledge in the subject.
Not in the mood of wasting my time with those who argue and again I am not against benefitting of hadith but I am against putting hadith almost at same level of the Qur’an.
This is only for those who want to have deeper knowledge and without preconceived biases in any particular way on this issue…
The fallacy of the idea that Qur’an is transmitted by the same narrators of the hadith or that the Qur’an is transmitted in the same way as hadith explained well here….
@ Ihsan
Wait to bring up the topic again.
It’s not a fallacy its anyone who has studied this. A simple question yet again how did the Quran reach you Ihsan living over 1,000 years later?
You can be against whatever you like but Allah has made this subject not up for debate so argue with Him about it.
Finally again common sense how can someone have “deeper knowledge” than a person who has studied a field? Again the analogy you can’t get seem to get around Ihsan allow me to perform a surgery on you. THIS is the problem. You and these random ignorant jack@$$e$ aren’t staying in your lane and are just talking out your butts about things you have no knowledge on. Just say you don’t believe and move on.
I don’t have time for you.
I have been studying Islam in depth before you went to high school.
“and are just talking out your butts”
Trying to talk as if you know about the hadith as if this is how the Prophet said to speak.
I will now throw some of your stinking behavior back at you so you can learn how you need to learn some manners….Go stick your head back into your butt you ignoramus. LOL.
I don’t like to talk with vulgarity like this chap sometimes does. May Allah guide him closer to the truth.
If he is a convert to Islam, may Allah reward him for all the sincerity he has shown.
Seems he has energy and ambition to learn but thinks only what is desirable in his sectarian eyes is the truth.
More sincerity and humility is more important than energy.
Again, for those who want to learn and not be confused about what happened in the first critical 100 years after the Prophet (peace be upon him).
@ Ihsan
Yes may Allah guide you towards Islam. Now for your catty comment:
“I have been studying Islam in depth before you went to high school.”
Means absolutely nothing and obviously not well enough. Ask Paul PLENTY of Christians have been Christian their entire life and don’t know anything about their religion. Again formal education is LIGHTYEARS ahead of watching random people on Youtube.
“Seems he has energy and ambition to learn but thinks only what is desirable in his sectarian eyes is the truth.”
My dude unlike you who was born into Islam I was a neutral slate and did overviews of Sufis, Shia, Ibadis etc and said:
“Yep all this is stupid”
This has nothing to do with sectarian bias ALL scholars of all time deem ahadith as authentic as well as EVERY sect until some ignorant people from India got into contact with a gentleman who claimed to be a prophet. Again you just (and pretty much every non educated person you quote) don’t believe in Islam.
“Again, for those who want to learn and not be confused about what happened in the first critical 100 years after the Prophet (peace be upon him).”
Oh so now it’s the first 100 years? Your last kaffir quoted said it was a thousand?
“…mostly left uncompleted during a course of almost a thousand years. And most importantly the Hadith collections and their verification was not supervised by the Prophet of God”
So since their pretty much no doubt that Sahaba transmitted ahadith all of you can’t even keep your fanfiction together. THAT’S something to lol about.
Kiddo, I probably was reading graduate level stuff on Islam before you knew Surah Fatihah.
You misunderstood the 1000 year remark by previous person you are referring to. He is likely referring to the issue that verses in the Qur’an are not explained by the hadith by and large.
Watching random videos, LOL.
I am only posting the video to make it intelligible for all laypersons. The speaker on the link I just sent is not just an Alim but above that…he is a Mufti.
Now go scamper about like a rabbit. Off with wasting my time kiddo.
@ Ihsan
First, off my dude, I am not a child. I am a grown man who has been married and paying his own bills since he was 17.
Next, your magical switch up is interesting. Before when asked to provide ANYONE who has graduated from Islamic sciences you claimed you didn’t use scholars because of years of institutionalized curriculum blah, blah, blah. NOW all of a sudden you have a team of “Scholars” who support your position and you yourself graduated from formal education. Again the magic question is who and where? Quote these educated people who hold this position so I can read their works. Since you have so much knowledge and have been “reading graduate books” you would know an absolute BASIC in Islam is I have the right to question where you got your info and you constantly fail to provide that. (Also as a note, graduate, a Mufti is not above an Alim. Even though we don’t have formal titles its pretty much a synonym for Sheikh. An Alim though is usually high up there in scholarship)
As for the guy you’ve now quoted, he does not throw out ALL ahadith nor does he cherry-pick what he doesn’t feel right, like you do. He simply stated discussing individual hadith does not correlate to dismissing the Qur’an. For example, Yassir Qadhi who follows the opinion of some other scholars such as Ibn Kathir questioned the validity of the hadith of Gog and Magog digging the wall every day. Do I personally think they need to present more evidence for their position? Yes. Do they deserve the same reaction as an ignorant layman like you? No. Even then his argument is pretty weak and is basically saying the Quran was an uncontrolled text when we know it’s not given it standardization across the board. Another issue is where does it end and what objective measurement do you have for proof?
There is no problem for those who are qualified to debate particular ahadith. You random person don’t get that luxury as you have not…wait for it…studied it.
As an update after more research here are some more opinions from the guy Ihsan quoted enjoy everyone: