Paul believed that Jesus was a divine pre-existent heavenly being, the first created being of all God’s creation: “He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation”, Colossians 1:15. He existed in the “form of God” and was “equal to God” (Philippians 2:6) though God the Father still remains the ultimate transcendent deity (‘to the glory of God the Father’, see Philippians 2 verse 11).
Though for Paul Jesus was clearly more than just a human being, Paul was careful to differentiate Jesus from God as such.
Here are several examples:
1 Corinthians 8:6
‘yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.’
Clearly Jesus has a God.
In 1 Corinthians 11:3 we read,
‘But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the husband is the head of his wife, and God is the head of Christ.’
This passage refers to the ascended heavenly Christ and suggests he is ontologically quite distinct from (and inferior to) ‘God’ who is Christ’s ‘head’. In other words God and Jesus are completely different beings.
In 2 Corinthians 1: 3 we read,
‘Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and the God of all consolation’
Again – Jesus has a God.
Ephesians 1:17:
I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better.
One might wonder how Jesus can “be God” and “have a God” at the same time?
2 Corinthians 11:31 (KJV):
The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not.
Here God is the God of Jesus.
_____
Paul rarely mentioned anything that Jesus taught and said little about Jesus’ life other than his alleged death on the cross. Perhaps the most significant aspect of Paul’s thought is that the message Jesus had preached became transformed into Jesus as the message: the Messenger had become the message! Or another way of putting it: Jesus’ message was theocentric, it was focused not on himself but on God (see the famous Sermon on the Mount in Mathew’s gospel chapters 5-7).
In contrast, Paul’s message was Christocentric, that is it was centred not on God but on his heavenly Christ. The Proclaimer had become the proclaimed, an inversion of fundamental importance for understanding the history of Christianity since Jesus.
Islam calls on Christians to follow the teaching of Jesus not a religion about Jesus.
Categories: Bible, Christianity, Christology, God, Islam
Jesus taught the end, his return will come very soon within one generation after his death, that’s what Paul taught and the very first Christians believed. This is NOT what Islam teaches.
@ Agnostic
Not agreed upon about being Apocalyptic.
Evidence for this position is weak and based on assumptions.
Based on historical evidence, supported by relevant scholarship, in contrast to Quranic Jesus, serious scholarship does not view the quranic narrative as historical.
Western scholarship is entirely secular in its methodology ie it rules out Revelation a priori.
Concerning the reliability of the gospels Christopher Tuckett, Professor of New Testament Studies at the University of Oxford, writes,
“Nevertheless the nature of the Gospel tradition means that we cannot simply take everything recorded in all the Gospels as unquestionably genuine reports about what Jesus said or did in a pre-Easter situation.”
Muslim scholarship accepts the Quran’s Jesus as historically true and accurate.
@ Agnostic
You have no historical evidence whatsoever. Again to show how nonsensical an argument this simply look up an early sect in Islam called the Sabaites, they were proto Shia who believed:
Ali (the Prophet’s(saw) cousin) was divinely appointed to rule and had been usurped
Ali and the Prophet(saw) would return and judge creation
Knew the Unseen
And other such things. This doesn’t mean Ali(ra) taught that and its a weak argument based on assumption.
“One might wonder how Jesus can “be God” and “have a God” at the same time?”
Does it never occur to you that the incarnation might explain this fact?
@ Erasmus
No, because it doesn’t.
@ Erasmus
No, because it doesn’t.
(thanks stewjo004)
So when Zeus incarnated as a man in Greek mythology, did he cease to be the supreme god on Olympus? When Krishna incarnated as a blue man (was he low on oxygen or something?), did he have a god also, even though he was supposed to be God?
It looks like it was written by uneducated Muslim. Uneducated, I mean someone who can’t read the whole Bible and only cherry-picked some verses to prove something what agrees with Islam and denies deity of Chrsit, however if we use whole text, not just some verses to examine this verses, we can clearly see that Paul taught that Jesus was God. Read the full text that you may know that it is God, the Father speaking about Jesus and focus on Hebrew 1:8!
Read this:
Hebrews 1:1-8
God’s Final Word: His Son
1 In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe. 3 The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. 4 So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.
The Son Superior to Angels
5 For to which of the angels did God ever say,
“You are my Son;
today I have become your Father”?
Or again,
“I will be his Father,
and he will be my Son”?
6 And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says,
“Let all God’s angels worship him.”
7 In speaking of the angels he says,
“He makes his angels spirits,
and his servants flames of fire.”
8 But about the Son he says,
“Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;
a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.
———————————
8 But about the Son he [God, The Father] says,
“Your throne, O GOD, will last for ever and ever;
a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.
Jesus is called THE God.
By Hebrew 1:8, all lies in this articles were destroyed. Jesus is God and Paul never taught different! Amen.
Paul didn’t write Hebrews! LOLOL
What an uneducated comment!
Man, you just made my day! No one is sure who is truly author, some believe it was Paul, some doubt, but it seems you know the name! LOL
Traditionally, Paul the Apostle was thought to be the author. However, SINCE the 3rd century this has been questioned, and the consensus among most modern scholars is that the author is unknown.
The Epistle to the Hebrews was included in the collected writings of Paul from a very early date. For example, the late second-century or early third-century codex, a volume of Paul’s general epistles, includes Hebrews immediately after Romans.
While the assumption of Pauline authorship readily allowed its acceptance in the Eastern Church, doubts persisted in the West.
‘But as to who wrote the epistle, only God knows the truth.’ [and Paul Williams – I would add] 😀
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authorship_of_the_Epistle_to_the_Hebrews
It looks like it was written by uneducated Muslim. Uneducated, I mean someone who can’t read the whole Bible and only cherry-picked some verses to prove something what agrees with Islam and denies deity of Christ, however if we use whole text, not just some verses to examine this verses, we can clearly see that Paul taught that Jesus was God. Read the full text that you may know that it is God, the Father is speaking about Jesus and then focus on Hebrew 1:8!
Read this:
Hebrews 1:1-8
God’s Final Word: His Son
1 In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe. 3 The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. 4 So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.
The Son Superior to Angels
5 For to which of the angels did God ever say,
“You are my Son;
today I have become your Father”?
Or again,
“I will be his Father,
and he will be my Son”?
6 And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says,
“Let all God’s angels worship him.”
7 In speaking of the angels he says,
“He makes his angels spirits,
and his servants flames of fire.”
8 But about the Son he says,
“Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;
a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.
———————————
8 But about the Son he [God, The Father] says,
“Your throne, O GOD, will last for ever and ever;
a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.
Jesus is called THE God.
By Hebrew 1:8, all lies in this articles were destroyed. Jesus is God and Paul never taught different! Amen.
Paul didn’t write Hebrews. If you’re going to start of arrogant by claiming ignorance of the other party then at least get the basics right of your own book.
And why is it that everytime you people are faced with glaring errors in your book you play the ‘look at the bigger picture’ game while you know full well you would NEVER allow such apologetics from the Muslim side?
Pauk teaches that the Son has a GOD. God cannot have a God. This is basic fact and will remain that way no matter how much verbal gymnastics you use. Deal with it.
Man, you just made my day! No one is sure who is truly author, some people believed and believes it was Paul, some doubt, but it seems you know the name! LOL
Traditionally, Paul the Apostle was thought to be the author. However, SINCE the 3rd century this has been questioned, and the consensus among most modern scholars is that the author is unknown.
The Epistle to the Hebrews was included in the collected writings of Paul from a very early date. For example, the late second-century or early third-century codex, a volume of Paul’s general epistles, includes Hebrews immediately after Romans.
While the assumption of Pauline authorship readily allowed its acceptance in the Eastern Church, doubts persisted in the West.
‘But as to who wrote the epistle, only God knows the truth.’ [and Atlas – I would add] 😀
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authorship_of_the_Epistle_to_the_Hebrews
O that’s great. Since you realized you were put in your place, you went to wikipedia and copy pasted some trash which doesn’t even refute my point and all of that to save face. Man the ego is something incredible.
Almost everyone agrees that it wasn’t wirtten by Paul. And your pathetic attempt to twist what I said by claiming that it seems that I know who it was is laugheble. Like what??? I never claimed I knew. I claimed the exact opposite: ie NO ONE KNOWS.
“There are not contradictions.
There are contradictions only for Muslim”
O boy! How will we ever refute that!!!!!
Even your own scholars (whether ‘liberal’ or concervatice) admit your comicbook is walking talking contradiction.
So you agree, Paul didn’t write it. But why did you try and pretend he did?
We weren’t fooled LOL
You wrote what Muslim do. They don’t udnertand the text, but they explain it by twisting the meaning of its teaching. Want example? You wrote: “Paul teaches that the Son has a GOD. God cannot have a God.”
You don’t understand because you forgot to realize how was the word God used in the 1st century among Jews! For this reason you are confused and in error.
If there is used a word God, it means the Father, God in heaven. Not God, the Son Jesus. Paul teaches that Son has the Father in heaven (God).
Ephesians 1:17:
I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father.
Next thing what you don’t realize is that Jesus Christ is called Lord with big L. Why is Jesus called Lord with big L?
Jesus is Lord – Excerpt from “Mere Christianity” by C.S. Lewis (1898-1963)
Jesus is Lord, yet mankind insists on calling Him everything else…
“I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: ‘I’m ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don’t accept His claim to be God.’ That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic – on the level with the man who says he is a poached egg – or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon; or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to.”
There are not contradictions.
There are contradictions only for Muslim, who don’t understand the Bible and they blindly follow false teaching. True followers of illiterate Muhammad who also never understood the teaching in the Bible would find contradictions in Bible if he could even read…We were lucky, he was illiterate and had a short memory. For this reason we can say he was false prophet for the errors and mistake found in Quran, e.g.: https://www.amazon.com/Quran-Science-Depth-complete-Deception/dp/1943375011
“So you agree, Paul didn’t write it.”
Show me where I wrote that I agree that Paul didn’t write it. I wrote that some people since 3rd century people started to doubt authorship of the Epistle to Hebrew. Before 3rd century, people believed it was from Paul and since now, people still believe it is from Paul. I believe that Paul wrote it. Don’t twist my words like Muhammad did with verses from Bible to pretend to be true prophet to deceive many people.
what evidence do you have from the letter that Paul wrote it?
He doesn’t have anything Br Paul. Don’t ask difficult questions that will hurt his little brain.
@ Maaaarrrrttiiiiinnnnnn
Well, I’ve read the gospels and I can tell you that’s what the authors of John believed:
“Pre-existent semi-divine being subservient to God like the Holy Spirit or the angels.”
When we look at clear references and interpret them to ambiguity this appears to be Saul’s beliefs as well. Even saying “God has a god” makes no sense in the Jews tongue and is illogical in the framework of monotheism.
And some brief passing comments on your other points:
1. Peter and John were illiterate and idiots according to your text (as well as 98% of Palestine at the time) so your argument of illiteracy backfires on you (especially seeing as an illiterate man allegedly wrote one of your texts)
2. There are lists of contradictions in the Biblical texts just ff the top of my head (Mary Magdelene at the tomb, When did the fig tree wither, pretty much all the crucifixion account)
https://quranandbibleblog.wordpress.com/2018/07/21/top-8-contentions-against-the-crucifixion-part-i/
3. C Lewis quote is a false dilemma fallacy as there is another choice
Liar, Lunatic or LIED UPON which is the position we take and have ample evidence for.
4. Muhammad(saw) did not “twist the Bible” (he never even quotes it).
5. Become a Muslim and join true monotheism instead of worshipping one of God’s creation.
Muhammad(saw) did not “twist the Bible” (he never even quotes it).
Really?
The Quran 21:105 says that in David’s Zabur there is a quote “the land is inherited by my righteous servants.” This resembles the 29th verse of Psalm 37 which says, “The righteous shall inherit the land, and dwell therein for ever,” (as translated in the King James Version of the Bible).
Liars follow liars and their destiny is their choice.
John 8:44
44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
Another dumb dumb. He said he never quoted the BIBLE, not that there isn’t anything resembling in the Psalms which we DON’T believe YOU HAVE in your comicbook called the bible.
Enjoy:
Song of Solomon 8:10 “Dear brothers, I’m a walled-in virgin still, but my breasts are full— And when my lover sees me, he knows he’ll soon be satisfied.”
Song of Songs 4:5 “Your two breasts are like two fawns, like twin fawns of a gazelle that browse among the lilies.”
Song of Songs 3:4 “Scarcely had I passed them when I found the one my heart loves. I held him and would not let him go till I had brought him to my mother’s house, to the room of the one who conceived me.”
Song of Songs 5:4 “I slept but my heart was awake. Listen! My lover is knocking: ‘Open to me, my sister, my darling, my dove, my flawless one. My head is drenched with dew, my hair with the dampness of the night.’ I have taken off my robe, must I put it on again? I have washed my feet, must I soil them again? My lover thrust his hand through the latch-opening; my heart began to pound for him.”
Ezekiel 23:20: “There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.”
This is the “Holy Word”? Disgusting!
@Maaarrrrrttttiiiiinnnnnn
Lol I’m glad that that’s all you could bring up in regards to my points.
1. The Quran is God talking, not Muhammad(saw) at least know your opponent’s sources. MUHAMMAD(saw) never quotes the Bible as I said the first time.
2. The verse has not been twisted as you claimed. Again we believe part of the original revelation is in the current Frankenstein book called the Bible. (please see the chart I created):
https://quranandbibleblog.wordpress.com/2019/02/24/corruption-of-the-scriptures-part-i-does-islam-confirm-the-bible-as-a-scripture-from-god/
3. Wtf do I need to lie to some random person on the internet I’ll more than likely never meet in my life nor have it affected by them in any way, shape or form?
4. Funny enough this verse you quoted is directed at the Jews who wrote the book you follow but don’t believe they changed. Got it.