This is a clever (and true) observation:
Islam is horizontally patriarchal and vertically matriarchal.
~ Dr Tim Winter
This is a clever (and true) observation:
Islam is horizontally patriarchal and vertically matriarchal.
~ Dr Tim Winter
Wow, what a choice of words (and obviously not for the first time he amazingly does it). What does he mean by horizontally patriarchal and vertically matriarchal? I can only picture it on a graph (lol) but please educate me on the meaning. Thanks.
I missed the title “Ying and Yang”. My bad. It makes sense. Thanks.
Wow I’ve been for the past year always going to bloggingtheology.com and wondering what happened to you and your blog and now FINALLY I found out about bloggingtheology2.com while cramming through twitter, I’m so glad! 🙂
Me too! I just found the BT2 site last week, and I have been reading through previous posts. I wish I would have discovered earlier.
Welcome back brother !!
Ijaz hijacked Blogging Theology and banned me from it so I had to start a new (identical) one. Sorry it took so long for you to find it.
I’m sorry, but this’s not true at all. You gave brother Ijaz that blog willingly. Therefore, he’s the owner of that blog legally and fairly. His policy of how to deal with the bloggers is irrelevant.
No you are mistaken. He kindly offered to pay for the maintenance of the blog, which entailed him becoming the owner. he said it was still my blog. I thought nothing of it. Then he started deleting and censoring my posts. Ultimately he banned me – the creator and main writer of BT. He is a nasty piece of work. There is much more I can say about Ijaz and his activities which would shock you. But that is water under the bridge.
I could be mistaken, but as far as I remember that you had wanted to close that blog, so he “He kindly offered to pay for the maintenance of the blog, which entailed him becoming the owner”, and this what really matters about this case. You are bot muslims, and I think it’s time for this issue to be forgotten.
You ignore the way he censured important articles I wrote and banned me from my own blog that I had built up over the years (he agreed it as my blog). His behaviour was despicable. A nasty guy. Hard to forget that. You don’t know the half of it.
No I didn’t.
Banning you and deleting your comments ≠ Ijaz hijacked that blog. These are 2 different facts. Again, you are the one who handed that blog willingly to Ijaz. We all know that you had built it up over the years, but nevertheless that was your decision (i.e. to hand it to Ijaz). Otherwise, that blog would have been shut down with all its contents.
Moreover, Ijaz says that he didn’t block you from writing , and the deleting for your comments came as a result for the insult shower you were writing. Also, I don’t recall that there’s an agreement between you that the blog is yours (legally). As far as I remember that you wanted to leave. if Ijaz said that the blog is still yours out of courtesy and for the fact that you had built it up, that doesn’t mean he is not the virtual owner of the blog, and I think you know that.
As I remember, the subject was about some issues at the speakers corner, and Ijaz thought it would be better to not write anything till we get thew whole picture. Our muslim brothers have right over us, and we should deal with this kind of issues carefully.
Finally, I encourage you both to forget this issue and to try to find a common ground to back together again as brothers in Islam.
‘Moreover, Ijaz says that he didn’t block you from writing’.
Yes he most certainly did by taking down my articles and deleting comments that were perfectly reasonable. I wrote several articles that were critical of the thuggish and violent behaviour of certain Muslim individuals at Speakers’ Corner. An individual I publicly named (‘Uncle Omar’) received a 2 year prison sentence for assaulting the police. I also lamented the fact that Muslims at that time (last year) wanted to cover up bad behaviour by Muslims. Hashim in particular suppressed any public censure of violent or abusive behaviour at Speakers Corner. He took down an article I wrote on facebook and threw me out of the Speakers’ Corner Facebook Group. No warning.
Mansur and many others refused to call out ISIS supporters who were actively recruiting at SC citing spurious excuses. This in the same city where ISIS terrorists had murdered many innocent people. I was appalled. I still am.
“Our muslim brothers have right over us” – not over me they don’t! Many of them I do not trust. Many are frankly uncivilised. Some are evil.
‘Finally, I encourage you both to forget this issue and to try to find a common ground to back together again as brothers in Islam.’
Ijaz came to Speakers’ Corner some months ago. I approached him in a spirit of peace and offered my salams to him. Other Muslims mediated and tried to reconcile us. However Ijaz ignored me and refused to even acknowledge me.
He has run BT into the ground. There have been no new posts since last year! He has betrayed the trust I placed in him.
These experiences have damaged my trust in Muslims.
“not over me they don’t! Most of them I do not trust. Many are frankly uncivilised. Some are evil”
“These experiences have damaged my trust in Muslims.”
Well, I think the problem is with you, Paul. You really need to counsel some muslim scholars about your attitude toward muslims because it’s certainly against the teachings of Islam. You can seek counsel from some “civilized” muslims if you like, which I assume they have to be from the West.
But seriously, when you think muslims are not worthy for your trust, or they are uncivilized, how could you expect from Ijaz to acknowledge you?
Also, there’s another side of the story about that issue at Speakers’ Corner.
Finally, the rights of muslims over you could be in form of advice and an invitation for him to Fear and remember Allah عز وحل if x muslim is doing wrong.
The prophet ﷺ said “A believer is the mirror of his brother. A believer is the brother of another believer . He protects him against loss and defends him behind his back.”
The prophet said (ﷺ) said, “Help your brother, whether he is an oppressor or is oppressed“. A man enquired: “O Messenger of Allah! I help him when he is oppressed, but how can I help him when he is an oppressor? ” He (ﷺ) said, “You can keep him from committing oppression . That will be your help to him“.
The prophet saidﷺ “Don’t nurse grudge and don’t bid him out for raising the price and don’t nurse aversion or enmity and don’t enter into a transaction when the others have entered into that transaction and be as fellow-brothers and servants of Allah . A Muslim is the brother of a Muslim. He neither oppresses him nor humiliates him nor looks down upon him . The piety is here, (and while saying so) he pointed towards his chest thrice . It is a serious evil for a Muslim that he should look down upon his brother Muslim. All things of a Muslim are inviolable for his brother in faith: his blood, his wealth and his honour.”
The prophet saidﷺ “Beware of suspicion, for it is the worst of false tales and don’t look for the other’s faults and don’t spy and don’t hate each other, and don’t desert (cut your relations with) one another O Allah’s servants, be brothers!”
“The believing men and believing women are allies of one another. They enjoin what is right and forbid what is wrong and establish prayer and give zakah and obey Allah and His Messenger. Those – Allah will have mercy upon them. Indeed, Allah is Exalted in Might and Wise” QT.
‘You really need to counsel some muslim scholars about your attitude toward muslims because it’s certainly against the teachings of Islam.’
Perhaps you are right.
‘But seriously, when you think muslims are not worthy for your trust, or they are uncivilized, how could you expect from Ijaz to acknowledge you?’
Not ALL Muslims. But many I have met are certainly uncivilised by normal English standards. I cannot pretend otherwise. And a small minority are just plain evil. I do not (and cannot) regard these people as ‘brothers’. Sorry.
After reading your quotes perhaps Islam may not be for the likes of me. The thought had crossed my mind before.
Islam does fit every soul, yet you need to be humble before The Lord of heavens and earth. This severe sensitivity in your personality can be managed and cured. May Allah guide us all to his path. Just rely on Him. The prophet ﷺ used to say ” Oh Allah, your Mercy I’m hopeful for, so don’t leave me to myself for the blink of an eye, and put all my affairs in good order for me. There is no god but You”
‘This severe sensitivity in your personality can be managed and cured.’
I’m not at all sure I want to be ‘cured’. You are asking too much.
I would feel less of a decent human being if i underwent your cure. My ‘severe sensitivity’ has kept me from becoming part of the tribe that puts its own interests first over the common good. My ‘sensitivity’ has stopped me from being morally culpable for the evil of terrorism – so many Muslims I know ignored the dangers of violent extremism in our midst.
“I would feel less of a decent human being if i underwent your cure.”
Very classic! It’s just an advice for you. You may know what’s the best for you. But I can tell that you’re personality is very sensitive.
And you are asking too much by asking muslims to accept that the common good = The English normal standards. English normal standards can be good and bad. It’s not the scale for me, and it will not be. They are not revelation from God.
It’s my sensitivity that has kept me from losing important values i was brought up with. If I followed most Muslims’ advice I would have damaged my soul.
I cannot go down the path you suggest. Thanks for your advice.
Again, it’s just an advice. There are western English muslims whom you may seek their advice such as Dr Tim Winter. As much as I appreciate your honesty with what you feel, I think you always get trapped and contained with these momental feelings.
By the way, the path I encouraged you to go to was to seek the help of the Most High. That would not take you down by any mean!
Here’s dr.Jonathan Brown’s experience with these feelings (1:03′)
‘I think you always get trapped and contained with these momental feelings.’ Can you give me an example?
I never understood that forgive and forget because were Muslim jack@$$ come in all forms and if a person was wronged he should be able to seek justice.
Idk who was right or wrong but Shaytan has now caused a rift when the both of them could have been working together. I personally think they should go to a neutral sheikh they both agree to and whatever ruling he gives they both agree to honor it as Muslims and so that the enmity can leave the heart of one another.
thats never going to happen.
Fair enough, I was more defending the fact of people telling wronged parties to forgive and forget instead of establishing justice between people.
@ Abdullah 1234
Many converts feel like Paul does.
What’s that supposed to mean?
@ Abdullah 1234
Exactly what it sounds like. MANY Muslims who convert get burned by other Muslims then get brushed aside and told to get over it. I see this quite frequently and the advice you’re giving is simply going to piss him off more (I know because it did for me when it happened)
It’s got nothing to do with being “sensitive” or “English speakers” its people protecting people who are jack@$$es (I usually see this more from people who were born into Islam) who IF we weren’t Muslim and it wasn’t a sin would get a mudhole stomped into them for talking crazy.
Paul is not saying things I have not heard from others before (and if it wasn’t haram I wouldn’t mess with Muslims either quite frankly). Its Islam’s many proofs that keep me and others Muslim, not Muslims’s character (if it was based solely on that I’m telling you the deen wouldn’t be spreading nearly as fast)
Furthermore, since we’re on the subject of convert and people born into Islam tensions another issue is the blasting of our cultures and the exaltation of others. Now I don’t know Paul’s intended meaning of “uncivilized” because I don’t reside on that side of the pond (to bougie for me btw Mr. Williams) But NOBODY’s cultures get as blasted in Islam as:
1. Westerners of African descent (African American, Jamaicans, etc)
2. Westerners of European descent
From my understanding of the context, he is not exalting his culture by saying “uncivilized” or “Normal standards in English” he is talking about the basic universal values of being a decent human being. Cultures have GOOD and bad in them, what Islam does is beautifies that more and removes their negatives. For example, let’s take the Arabs, highlights of their culture during the time of the Prophet(saw):
1. They did not lie
2. Courage and bravery were highly valued
3. Extremely eloquent
4. Good memory
1. Idol Worshippers
2. Cheats in business
3. Some tribes killed their daughters
5. Took advantage of the poor
Isalm beautified these qualities more and removed the bad ones. (And we can do this analysis for ALL culture btw) People figure things out without revelation (for example the treaty of the perfume) they just don’t figure out ALL of the good revelation brings. Paul is talking about the lack of establishing of justice and THIS is the qualifier of what makes us the best nation and what the Jews and Christians failed to do, Allah says:
You are the best nation brought forth for mankind. You encourage to what’s right, stop what’s wrong and believe in God. If only the People of the Scripture had believed, it would’ve been better for them. Some among them have faith but most are defiant and disobedient. (3:110)
Again if I misunderstood or didn’t clarify I’m sure Paul can but from what I’m reading this is the jist of what he’s saying and many people feel this way. And may Allah guide and rectify the affair.
“MANY Muslims who convert get burned by other Muslims then get brushed aside and told to get over it. “I usually see this more from people who were born into Islam” “its Islam’s many proofs that keep me and others Muslim, not Muslims’s character (if it was based solely on that I’m telling you the deen wouldn’t be spreading nearly as fast)”
Take it easy, man! Believe me, I’ve heard from an evangelical zionist a better opinion and attitude towards muslims than these exaggerated unsubstantiated opinions! I mean what have you left for Islamphobes to say? I really have no idea what you are talking about.
Moreover, I can say MANY people have converted to Islam because of muslims’ character! Malcom X, the famous black muslim converted to Islam because of muslims’ character. Also, Muslims’ character played a key role to get a great nation into Islam as what happened in Indonesia. For God sake, muslims are human beings! It’s natural for human beings to get angry & to do something wrong! However, because of the self centered culture in the West, there’s alway an extra demand over muslims to prove that they are human beings. Their mistakes have to be magnified. Not to mention the western media and its filthy role in stereotyping muslims!
“the advice you’re giving is simply going to piss him off more”
I cannot see why!? Because I quote some hadiths and verses? Because he thinks he’s more civilized and above to be given advices, and I’m supposed to submit to this “fact”? Because I’m telling him it’s not normal to think ill of muslims like that?
Dear Brother, I hope to take a moment to reflect here on how insanely this attitude is! A stupid clash at Speakers’ corner is supposed to (damage) your trust in muslims! It’s also supposed to give you the green card to think ill of muslims because the other side of the clash was “English civilized” white nationalists? Do you really think this’s a normal thing? Don’t you really get this insane picture?
Oh dear! Let me tell you soemthing about real issues in this life! Or you know what?
Let this American soldier tell you. Let him tell you how a woman in Iraq could find a way to think good about that soldier although he had commanded to attack her house!
Now would you give Muslims the excuse to think with a sick suspicion towards the western people till it’s proven the otherwise? No! We’ll be the bad guys instantly!
Again, I think part of the problem is with Paul’s personality. Why doesn’t Hamza Myatt, a convert, have the same attitude towards muslims?
“since we’re on the subject of convert and people born into Islam tensions another issue”
Oh! So there’s a subject about the”tensions” between convert and people born into Islam! Sorry to hear that! Notice that in Islam there’s a complete system of justice by which you can to take your rights even from the ruler or the King. We are not talking about forgetting your rights if they are violated by other muslims! This is not the subject! Muslim could be a thief, and you have all the right to protect yourself from that muslim. In fact, even jews and christians have the right to ask their rights if they are violated by a muslim. Islam guarantees that for them. However, we are talking about sick suspicion and the bad attitude towards muslims in general. This’s the issue!
“And may Allah guide and rectify the affair”
stewjo004 outstanding comments!
‘Again, I think part of the problem is with Paul’s personality. Why doesn’t Hamza Myatt, a convert, have the same attitude towards muslims?’
Good question. I have thought about this before. I suspect Hamza basically buys into the Muslim victim mentality and sides with the tribe – irrespective of whether they are right or wrong. In the last video post Ijaz put on on my old hijacked blog:
we can see Hamza whitewashing the violent events that took place at SC last year. No mention of the criminal assaults by Muslims that took place. Hamza dismissed the far right claim that jihadi terrorists were operating at the park. But they were there! Tommy Robinson was right about some things.
I spoke out. I was censured by Ijaz, Hashim and most Muslims who used to film me at the park no longer talk to me.
You put all this down to my disordered personality. Are you saying I made all this shit up?
” Hamza basically buys into the Muslim victim mentality and sides with the tribe ”
I think has discussion been ended at this point.
It’s very interesting that Tommy Robinson could be right about some things , but Muslims cannot be right about some things.
I didn’t put down your personality! As you don’t like some aspects of muslims, I don’t like this side in your personality! It’s not normal at all for me.
“I spoke out. I was censured by Ijaz, Hashim and most Muslims who used to film me at the park no longer talk to me.”
Maybe they have another opinion! Have you considered that possibility? They simply disagreer with you. Are not they humans enough to have the right to disagree with an English man? Oh God!
of course they disagree with me. But I believe they are profoundly wrong. We have different values and a different understanding of Britain and our responsibilities towards the general population.
Probably I have not been sufficiently Islamicized. Non-Muslims I talk to about this understand me perfectly well. That is revealing.
‘However, we are talking about sick suspicion and the bad attitude towards muslims in general. This’s the issue!’
Yes I have this ‘sickness’. But not towards the 1.9 billion Muslims in general. Just towards many muslims (even highly regarded ones) I know. Your cure (internalising those hadith you quoted) will not work Abdullah. The hadiths would just make me more ill. I would vomit them out. Such is life..
” know. Your cure (internalising those hadith you quoted) will not work Abdullah. The hadiths would just make me more ill. I would vomit them out. Such is life..”
I have no words to say!
“Rather, man, against himself, will be a witness, Even if he presents his excuses.” QT
I’m willing to stand by that. Most times I have this conversation with Muslims I end up wanting to leave the religion. I’m not sufficiently islamicized.
Have you considered talking with an English muslim about this problem? Some one you think he understands the “British values”?
Islam is the religion of Fitrah! There’s nothing called “Islamizing”
Why do you put British values in scare quotes?
Because it seems you have a different understanding of Britain which I can’t even understand! It differs even from that one British converts have! To tell me that hadiths about that Muslims should built their general relationship on trust and brotherhood make you sick raises a serious question!? How are you supposed to live in Britain with British people? On suspicions? Is this the Britain’s values?
Rather it’s a product of a self centered- culture.
we have quite different values and worldview Abdullah. Let’s leave it at that.
OK, though I don’t understand what this’s supposed to mean, I think it’s good for you to share your thoughts with an English muslim who may understand you better.
For me, Islamic values are the best for the mankind!
I have spoken to Hamza the English Muslim in the past. I haven’t found him very understanding of my position. I think he said he no longer trusted me as a result of my actions.
Ok, why don’t you go beyond those who are at SC?
Fro example, why don’t you speak with dr. Tim Winter? Tell him what you feel towards Muslims. Tell him what you feel about these great hadiths.
Out of curiosity, why do you think Hamza coudn’t understand you anymore? Is he no longer can understand Britain?
@ Abdullah 1234
I had to walk a way for a moment and remember “you just don’t know”. Sigh okay let me now go down the line:
1.This is not something “I read about that one time” let me first emphasize this for you before continuing, ahem:
I AM A CONVERT TO ISLAM THIS IS FIRST HAND EXPERIENCE AND I KNOW EXACTLY WHAT I’M TALKING ABOUT THIS IS NEW INFO FOR YOU
Since I apparently “don’t know what I’m talking about” allow me to give you some highlights in my 8 years of being a Muslim (these are all diffrent people btw and multiple times):
A.Broke into my house and spit on
B.Punched in the hip for providing evidence
C. An ABUNDANCE of racial slurs
D.Backbited and slandered (multiple incidents btw)
E. When complained to the board about a serious slander got the runaround for 6 months because she was their friend
F. Threatened to be shot for touching someone’s foot in Salah and THEN they defended the guy
G. Not paid for work done even with a contract
Keep in mind my wife’s family is influential in my city so God knows what happens to other people with no support. The ONLY reason these didn’t escalate is because I fear Allah. Since I have such an “unsubstantiated opinion” would you like to posts the content of emails of converts thanking me for standing up for them? Actually I’ll do you ne better do me a favor and go look up this documentary called “Unmosqued” so you can see stats yourself.
Now with that being said all one has to do is look at our statistics now why do most people leave Islam? I almost guarantee the majority is due to them having a bad experience with other Muslims. Just fixing this issue of teaching others how to socialize in society properly will SHOOT up our retention rates.
2. Malcom X and Indonesia
This was first off ONE person dude. Next he already had a HUGE following prior to becoming Muslim. Many black people had originally joined the Nation because of heavy discrimination and getting their teeth kicked in by Whites. As much as the Nation are kuffar highlights of their that Muslims in the West lost is setting up areas of empowerment for poor communities and the organization. These people were on board because of that. Malcom X was an influential speaker already then he became Muslim and then came back and exposed the Nation for twisting Islam to black people in order to take advantage of them. Many people then looked into true Islam, converted and he was killed. As for Indonesia context and common sense suggests I am talking about Modern times not centuries ago.
3. Alleged “white nationalism”/ you giving terrible advice
He is NOT being a white nationalist MANY Muslims are sheltered @$$holes who never got beat up for talking tough to the wrong person. Quite frankly they have horrible social skills which is what Paul is talking about.
Next your advice lacked any type of hikmah to the situation at hand. Part of knowledge is knowing when to apply it and your few “hadiths and verses” were completely inappropriate to the situation because as we have established you are ignorant of it. Even if he was “being sensitive” what does it matter? Let me explain how a person normally handles the situation, ahem:
“Paul, I’m sorry you are offended regarding Ijaz’s treatment of you. While I don’t understand why you’re upset what matters is that you are. Let’s set up a date to sit down and talk it out with Ijaz, what time is best for you?”
Boom, that simple we’re not building space ships here.
4.Your sob video
Thank you for proving my point lol! You want me to care about a nation I have no fight in but don’t want to reciprocate in kind. One ummah and body remember? Oh but its gets pushed the side as I said. Again YOU are exalting your culture and putting down others. As a side note, dude you know NOTHING about me, my past or what I’ve seen lol.
PS I don’t care what “Hamza Myatt” (whoever that is) thinks. He ain’t no people to me. The fact that you had to GO FIND A STORY shows YOU don’t know what you’re talking about. The irony.
PSS Foreigners are EXTREMELY suspicious of Westerners what are you talking about?
5. He can just run to the ruler blah, blah, blah
God you’re nativity would be cute if it wasn’t annoying. Several problems here:
A.There is no leaders in the West nor systems of governance among ourselves in place. Its basically a glorified honor system that people with low iman chalk.
B.Even if we set these systems up we would still have difficulty in enforcement as we are not the government.
C.Many Imams are simply unqualified to lead. I’ll give a simple example, many female converts have no wali so the Imam gets appointed as her wakil. He then proceeds to marry her off to an unemployed brother fresh out of jail or some crap and then they divorced. Now she goes back with an even harder sale as she has been divorced, no bad prospect is given and the cycle gets worse as she gets more desperate.
7. Bad Attitude
Finally how do you think he got the bad attitude in the first place? Come on you’re a smart guy. I’ll give a simple thing here why do you think Churches are able to keep people despite the illogical nonsense? BECAUSE THEY’RE NICE TO THEM. So in conclusion:
A.Paul’s got a right to be upset
B.You should all fear Allah and establish justice.
@ Abdullah 1234
You just threw shade at his culture again! This would be equivalent to me saying:
“Why don’t you take your inbred stuck in 1200 CE @$$ back to philistine and go get creamed by the Jews in another six day war. Also try not to opress a woman along the way.”
My dude do you REALLY want to do this? There is simply too much ammo I would highly advise you aplogize to him or I can make this a riding session about YOUR culture if you would prefer?
There’s no voice of Hikmah in your post whatsoever, believe me. It’s very clear that you take it personally.
“You want me to care about a nation I have no fight in but don’t want to reciprocate in kind”
So this is what you got from the video? Epic!
“Our Lord, upon You we have relied, and to You we have returned, and to You is the destination. Our Lord, make us not [objects of] torment for the disbelievers and forgive us, our Lord. Indeed, it is You who is the Exalted in Might, the Wise.” QT.
@ Abdullah 1234
So that we can move on from that bs point wallahi I don’t its about standing up for whats right and trying to instill some sort if knowledge to you. Anyways, can’t help but notice you skipped ALL my points. Again you are talking from ignorance.
“Say, “Our Lord will bring us together; then He will judge between us in truth. And He is the Knowing Judge.” QT.
@ Abdullah 1234
Got it when an injustice happens let’s put our hands over our ears and go lalalala instead of trying to fix things.
Don’t worry!, because “He will judge between us in truth. And He is the Knowing Judge”.
@ Abdullah 1234
By that reasoning why even have a law in the first place my friend 🙂
Believe me , no one prevents you to seek the help of the law so that you can touch other feet in Salah!
Fellas, fellas, let’s stop the bickering. This is just what our enemies want.
I don’t give two flying rat’s behinds what kuffar who don’t know their buts from their elbows think. He is wrong its that simple.
Very true. And my own position is clear on this issue, from past comments. What brother Paul did was not wrong. We should speak out against all wrong deeds, even those done by Muslims. But I think the other view was that we were broadcasting our dirty laundry which would make more people regard Muslims with suspicion. I can understand the position, but that should not be an excuse for covering up bad things done by Muslims. I don’t think they were defending those actions, just trying to keep it under wraps. It wasn’t what I would have done. I would have condemned the violent actions of the people involved.
My view is that both sides should bury the hatchet, but I know it won’t happen anytime soon.
Brother Faiz, may Allah be pleased with you!
Your statement “What brother Paul did was not wrong.” is not the subject per se!
Calling out the wrong actions done by Muslims is not the subject.
The subject is the attitude you read about Muslims which doesn’t differ from that one Tommy has!
The subject is when your trust on Muslims gets damaged because it happens that muslims are human beings, and it happens they do wrong things sometimes as any human being on this earth! This is the subject!
What Paul did (after) that issue, and this sick attitude he generated (after) that issue is the subject, and it’s the true issue here! You know that in some point that led him to leave Islam even! I cannot see that as a normal thing! I just cannot pretend that I see this’s the normal action of him to take. Myatth didn’t develop this sick attitude! And please don’t tell me that because Myatt joined to the tribe!
Some muslim countries are being blasted literally, yet people in those countries have the ability to get over these issues which “civilized” people name it as “victim mentality”, and they can generate a good attitude towards people aftermath.
‘Calling out the wrong actions done by Muslims is not the subject.’
Yes it is. The failure of prominent Muslims to call out public wrongdoing was a scandal. It incited the far right to come down to SC (the police also told me this). The censoring of articles discussing this problem was a scandal too. Ijaz and Hashim suppressed any Muslim discussion of the violence. Hamza whitewashed it in his video.
Known ISIS activists, close associates of terrorists of the scum who killed people in London operated freely at SC. They were recruiting new people. I saw it. They were well known individuals having appeared in documentaries and in the tabloid press.
No Muslim said anything about this publically. It was just business as usual. I remember looking around the park one day at what was going on and being utterly amazed at the situation. I got a cameraman and went up to one of the known ISIS men and challenged him. The rest is history…
And Abdullah – don’t call me sick. It attitudes like yours that bring Islam in to disrepute. What’s sad is you don’t even realise it.
No, it is not. They have another opinion than yours about that stupid clash at SC which white nationalists started! It’s very strange that Police cannot see what you and your budy Tommy see, so please give them a break!
“who killed people in London operated freely at SC”
So the Police just let them operate freely at SC, and you decide to become Sherlock Holmes?
I didn’t call you sick! You have a sick attitude towards muslims! And as you demand from muslims to call out the wrong action, I’ll call out your wrong action!
I have sent the Scripture down to you in Truth, so that you could judge between people by what God has shown you, so do not be an advocate for con artists, and ask God for forgiveness because He is Most Forgiving and Forever Merciful. (4:105-106)
But whatever byeeeeee
I think it’s better to be careful! Quoting hadiths or verses could make some converts feel sick! You don’t wanna that, do you?
Thank you a normal person’s answer. See how you are much more productive than doing what any schoalr in higher learning will tell you NOT to do which is quote an bunch of hadith and ayat to person who is angry so they don’t say shirk or kufr? But what do I know I guess the ol saying common sense ain’t so common applies here.
My answer much more simple defending the oppressed against an oppressor.
The prophet (ﷺ) said, “Help your brother, whether he is an oppressor or is oppressed”. A man enquired: “O Messenger of Allah! I help him when he is oppressed, but how can I help him when he is an oppressor?” He (ﷺ) said, ” You can keep him from committing oppression. That will be your help to him “.
[Al-Bukhari and Muslim].
the problem is that some of the ‘brothers’ are scum. You have a problem with me calling a Muslim that. You will say its a sickness in my brain. But that is what they are. They are not my ‘brothers’.
No! Don’t put words on my mouth just because you don’t want to understand me.
Let me explain it to you again, what if I said that some some British people are scum, and that fact damaged my trust on British people, do you accept that? Do I expect from you to have a negative attitude towards British people because of the fact that among them scum people?
Also, do you know what brother means in general sense!? Don’t you think there’re criminal muslims during time of the prophetﷺ? How did heﷺ deal with them even when some of their punishment was the death?
Thank God that His Mercy is not based our emotions!
lets agree to disagree.
I’ll agree to that.
Basically see you getting into everyone’s business, it’s even making my blood boil. Your quoting hadith with really bad manners. I pray Allah removes every single sin from me and from the people who dealt with you in this post and makes us neighbors in jannah tul firdous ameen.
Brother Abdullah has a point of view. I disagree with him but I don’t think he is being offensive or anything. And it is true that brother Paul even left Islam a second time because of something some ISIS fanatic said. Paul’s decision was rash, but I predicted that it was not the end. Alhamdulillah, he came back. But that also perfectly illustrates brother Paul’s point. If some so-called Muslims are saying they support ISIS, which all scholars have declared to be a heretical organization, then as Muslims, it is our duty to condemn such behavior, and not cover it up.
However, I also understand Abdullah’s point. People use such incidences to malign all Muslims, and even though I don’t think Paul intended to do that, I can see why Abdullah thought that. After all, brother Paul did apostatize, which means he took one person’s pro-ISIS comments and applied it to Islam in general, using that as the excuse to leave Islam. That was wrong.
Phew, anyway, this whole issue gives me a headache. I think it’s just best to leave it. Let the wounds heal and the anger subside and perhaps in the near future, there will be reconcilation, inshaAllah. Until then, trying to understand both sides of the argument is the best course of action.
‘Paul even left Islam a second time because of something some ISIS fanatic said.’
No. I left because i was told by the overwhelming majority of muslims i know that what I had done was wrong (calling out ISIS people in public). They quoted hadith at me just as Abdullah1234 has done here.
It was not a rash decision. It was very reasonable in the circumstances.
It took a despised minority group in the ummah to show me why the majority was wrong.
FYI Paul Williams, Muslims have been calling out Khwarij before there’s something called Britain comes to existence and before there’s something called “British values” do even exist. Don’t try to play at this point. You know this’s not the point!
Also, If I met an ISIS supporter at SC, I would quote hadiths (teachings of the prophetﷺ), the greatest teachings on earth, to show him that he’s clearly wrong!
Hadiths I quoted for you don’t say calling out the wrong action is wrong! How did you get this understanding? Why don’y you say that you don’t want to understand!
Telling an ISIS supporter that he should submit to the British values that vomited to us someone like Tony Blair wouldn’t help him to understand that he is wrong!
“minority group in the ummah to show me why the (majority) was wrong.”
This’s the issue, my Friends! Do you see what Paul’s attitude towards the (majority) of this Ummah?
I cannot clarify more! I’m asking Allah to guide us all to his Path. That’s all what I can say. And just final point, Ijaz didn’t hijack that blog whether you like that or not.
Brother Paul, I remember reading your Twitter account last October when you had announced you had come back to Islam. You had mentioned the unfortunate death of your father (may he rest in peace) and how ISIS supporters had angered you. I was referring to that incident. I may have misread your tweet but that’s what I remember.
Great rhetoric! You really showed me up dude. Moral: I should always follow the crowd.
quranandbibleblog the main issue was the overwhelming message from Muslims I knew (and many I did not) that my actions were wrong. Abdullah12345 would have joined these Muslims too I’m sure.
I had to step outside of Islam and rely on my good olde English common sense to keep me on the right path.
Dear Mr Williams
I am sorry truly to hear that you are unhappy and wish you all the very best. The environment of Speakers corner does not seem to be conducive to informed theological discussion.
God Love You
P.S In the words of St John Cassian, of blessed memory:
“But first we must struggle with the demon of dejection who casts the soul into despair. We must drive him from our heart. It was this demon that did not allow Cain to repent after he had killed his brother, or Judas after he had betrayed his Master” (Philokalia I)
Hi Tobias. How are you doing? I heard you were sick?
Greetings dear Sir and I hope that you are well. Yes I have indeed been unwell and am still quite weak, but I endure by the mercy of God and by the intersessions of his saints.
Am currently indulging myself with the books of Patrick Leigh Fermor, which i would highly recommend.
Sadly i shall not be returning to the so called ‘blogger sphere’ but i enjoyed our spirited interactions and, while our opinions differ, i sincerely wish you end everyone on this blog all the very best. May the Grace of God and the prayers of his saints be always with you.
Goodbye and God love you
P.S In the words of St Augustine of Hippo, of holy and blessed memory:
“Thou hast made us for thyself, O Lord, and our heart is restless until it finds its rest in thee.”
I pray to Allah (swt) that you feel better.
One last thing I have to say about this is:
1. I was speaking in general terms I don’t know who is right or wrong but the thing is a person came saying their were wronged and people were telling them to get over it. For example, Hatun Tash EVEN THOUGH she is a kafara claimed that she was touched inappropriately at Hyde Park and got dismissed. Now she could be lying bit it would have been better to have her swear in the god of Moses(as) this happened and investigated accordingly. Paul said he was wronged and people chalked his grievances.
2. Regarding the actual situation, I don’t think it will malign Muslims, honestly I would respect a people who establish justice even if its against themselves.
3. I don’t nessecarily agree with ALL of what Paul is saying. To give you guys a tip from what we Americans used to do back in the day, we tried to work the situation of what a brother did out among ourselves anf if he refused or ignired then outside forces got called in and we let him know this is what’s going to happen. But I DO agree with Paul that its unacceptable to allow a Muslim to wrong the people.
I agree brother.
Is that the same Hatun Tash who tried to hug a Muslim against his will? Doesn’t excuse what may have happened to her, but she has engaged in inappropriate behavior herself.
Yeah, it still should have been investigated, but did she blame a specific person?
No. Like I said she could be likely but if the accusation is here it should be investigated. Here’s where she claims she was touched inappropriately:
Well anyway, I think brother Abdullah and Paul need to take a breath and step back. Agree to disagree and not let this escalate. Bury the hatchet and move on. Onwards, not backwards.
Too late dude. I have virtually no Muslim friends left. The people who understand me best are non Muslims these days. Most Muslims I know of behave like an inward looking tribe who have no understanding of the common good of society.
The open secret is that many do not give a damn about violent extremists and terrorist scumbags in our midst. I have come to this conclusion though hard experience. It’s a scandal.
Paul, how do you manage in the community with no Muslim friends or even being ostracized? I mean praying at the Mosque, studying Islamic subjects, socially and so forth?
Good question Andy. I can no longer go my mosque (Regents Park mosque – one of the few multicultural mosques in London I could fit in) having been warned not to go there as certain of my enemies might cause me trouble if I go.
Such is life.
So what do you do, you don’t pray at the mosque, study on you your own, don’t interact with Muslims IRL?