This is so true…this post proves that Jesus (peace be upon him) never preached a doctrine of vicarious atonement or resurrection to his followers since if he did…then you are right…then a, b, or c would not have occurred.
With regards to Agnostic’s comment, this is not a problem from an Islamic perspective since the Qur’an does indicate that it appeared that he (Jesus) was crucified but he did not really die.
مکر – Makr – is a very negative word. trickery, deception, scheming, etc. –
Verse 55 says the God raised Jesus to Himself – so Allah deceived the people.
3:55
[Mention] when Allah said, “O Jesus, indeed I will take you and raise you to Myself and purify you from those who disbelieve and make those who follow you superior (Fowq, فوق ) to those who disbelieve until the Day of Resurrection. Surah 3:55
He also made the followers of Jesus superior to the unbelievers until the Day of Resurrection; and manifest / obvious / dominant (from ظاهر , in Surah 61:14
“O you who have believed, be supporters of Allah, as when Jesus, the son of Mary, said to the disciples, “Who are my supporters for Allah ?” The disciples said, “We are supporters of Allah .” And a faction of the Children of Israel believed and a faction disbelieved. So We supported those who believed against their enemy, and they became dominant.” Surah 61:14
But, history tells us that the believers / followers of Christ (NT, first century, 2nd – 5th centuries & beyond) believed in His death and resurrection, Deity, Lordship, eternal Sonship, which point to the doctrine of the Trinity, etc. and so, this also makes no sense and is an internal massive contradiction within Islam itself.
So I’ve decided to try and be nice to you is your question out of genuine curiosity or are you trying to troll? Its okay if you are just let me know before I begin an explanation.
It is about consistency. I agree with historical criticism of Christianity, it is necessary and helpful. I demand the same criticism for the orthodox Islamic narrative. If points a, b, c good points why ignore the last paragraph?
Jesus not being crucified or his disciples being devout Muslims cannot be sustained historically. And for further dialogue or discussion it is not helpful to claim it’s a miracle or it is literally historically true because God said so.
I never said anything about not being consistent I’m simply seeing if you are being genuine or attempting to troll as the last time I tried to engage in respectful discussion with you, you weren’t interested. You were given various sources and explanation but continued in your rant despite being disproven so rather than waste my time I’m gauging first.
PS
The historical method doesn’t account for the supernatural which is a valid argument because it’s not being looked for by historians and we accept it but that is a separate side tangent.
It is not reasonable to insist on supernatural truths that are contradicted by history. If the trinity is the Achilles heel of Christianity, then historicity of the Quranic tales and legends is for Islam. I see no willingness to engage this point here, your answer is another nail in the coffin of credibility of orthodox “dawah”.
But it wasn’t clear to the disciples that his rising again from the dead would also involve a reunion with Christ in the body on the third day. They did not appear to believe so.
Lol thank you for showing why no one treats you respectfully. You made a bunch of assumptions (and still are) and just run with it. But I appreciate you telling me that you are not interested in finding if something is true or not and simply just troll to waste of your short life.
مکر – Makr – is a very negative word. trickery, deception, scheming, etc. –
Verse 55 says the God raised Jesus to Himself – so Allah deceived the people.
3:55
[Mention] when Allah said, “O Jesus, indeed I will take you and raise you to Myself and purify you from those who disbelieve and make those who follow you superior (Fowq, فوق ) to those who disbelieve until the Day of Resurrection. Surah 3:55
He also made the followers of Jesus superior to the unbelievers until the Day of Resurrection; and manifest / obvious / dominant (from ظاهر , in Surah 61:14
“O you who have believed, be supporters of Allah, as when Jesus, the son of Mary, said to the disciples, “Who are my supporters for Allah ?” The disciples said, “We are supporters of Allah .” And a faction of the Children of Israel believed and a faction disbelieved. So We supported those who believed against their enemy, and they became dominant.” Surah 61:14
But, history tells us that the believers / followers of Christ (NT, first century, 2nd – 5th centuries & beyond) believed in His death and resurrection, Deity, Lordship, eternal Sonship, which point to the doctrine of the Trinity, etc. and so, this also makes no sense and is an internal massive contradiction within Islam itself.
That applies to people who are not kuffar. There is no difference of opinion that if you died on your current beliefs you would not be in Hell. You talk out your a** and act like you know ANYTHING about Islam. Neither you nor Agnostic have studied this subject but act like you have and it’s quite frankly annoying. For example:
Did you know that the switch theory was refuted by heavy hitter scholars? No.
Do you know where the switch theory even stems from? No.
Did you know there are other way stronger in both grammar and history pertaining to the verse? No.
Have you ever read the verse in its original language? No.
Have you ever read the context of the verse? No.
But for some reason, both of you seem to say stupid sh*t about Gnostics, historicity, miracles, deceivers etc. So as I said earlier with all due respect stfu if you haven’t studied something. Thank you and have a nice day.
I did not say anything here about the “Switch theory”. But it is clear that Allah deceived people into thinking that Jesus was crucified and died. This is proof the Qur’an is not from God, since it goes against all known historical facts. No, I will not shut up and you are using dirty talk like “talk out of your a**” and “stfu” = bad character – you are not obeying Surah 16:125.
I promise you none of your points are very good you simply stuff your head up Shamoun’s but and act like an expert after saying a few Persian words. Next didn’t swear once you can simply infer it. The verse in question is a general rule but one can use harsh words with stubborn disbelievers like yourself, for example, Abu Bakr(ra) to Urwah or Moses(as) to the Pharaoh. You insult Islam all the time and are actively hostile to it so yes I will repeat once again you speak from the area where your back pocket lies.
Moving on:
1. Wasn’t talking about the switch with you this was from Agnostic’s ramblings. He made an assumption and ran with it and then you started piggybacking.
2. It doesn’t go against historical facts because you don’t know what you’re speaking on as you haven’t studied the subject.
I knew about those issues before Shamoun and Wood started their ministries.
I have studied the issues pretty well.
Is there a way to disagree with Islam, and sincerely believe it is a false religion, because of the logic that if NT Christianity is true, then logically and automatically, Islam is false; – is there a way for us Christians to sincerely believe that without you accusing us of “insulting Islam”, etc. ?
I mean you guys thrive and live to insult Christianity – everything you say and do is insulting to the true God, true Christ, true doctrine, etc. Most every post Paul W. puts up is an attack on Christianity and the Bible – but I don’t complain about that – I welcome civilized debate. You guys don’t like debate thought, just insults and name calling, when you run out of arguments. Stew – your latest stuff is full of cursing and ad hominem.
But it does not bother me – it is your side that keeps saying, “Islamophobe!”, “you insulted Islam”, “Pennywise”, “hypocrite”, “liar”, “idiot”, etc.
Matthew 5:21-26
summary:
Whoever is anger with another human being and calls him “idiot” (stupid, empty headed, fool) is guilty and is going to hell-fire.
There is no way to disagree – your whole system is forcing people and conquering and you won’t let anyone just disagree according to logic and reason – without your constant complaining of “insulting”, all the time people like Faiz / QB throws out insults and ad hominem and cursing and name calling and then turns it back, etc.
You cursed in your heart – it is obvious. God sees your heart – you typed abbreviations, but God knows your heart.
Mark 7:20-23
Jeremiah 17:9
The typing speaks out of your heart.
33 “Make a tree good and its fruit will be good, or make a tree bad and its fruit will be bad, for a tree is recognized by its fruit. 34 You brood of vipers, how can you who are evil say anything good? For the mouth speaks what the heart is full of. 35 A good man brings good things out of the good stored up in him, and an evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in him. 36 But I tell you that everyone will have to give account on the day of judgment for every empty word they have spoken. 37 For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned.”
Waaah, waaah, you Muslims are a bunch of meanies cries Pennywise. Meanwhile, the hypocrite recently accused Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) of being a false prophet who was affected by “heat stroke”. Oh no, but that’s not an insult. Also, Pennywise’s pathetic blog is full of propaganda against Islam with words like “evil” peppered throughout. But oh no, that’s not insulting either. Pennywise says he uses “logic” to determine that the NT is “true” and yet there is not a speck of logic, only non-sequiturs, circular arguments and the usual “nope, you’re wrong” nonsense. Pennywise automatically rejects any scholarly view, without evidence, that disagrees with his preconceived notions. Is that “logical”? I think not.
So, I guess we meanies will continue to be mean to the little pimple named Kenny. That’s all you can do with little pus-filled zits. You pop them.
I was going to originally post an insulting message but as I thought about your post, you’re absolutely right I need to calm down and remember that you guys know next to nothing about Islam besides some biased piece or video you one time read. So thank you for the reminder
I actually wasn’t lol. I remembered the Prophet(saw) defined arrogance as:
1. Thinking your better than others
2. When the truth comes to you, you reject it.
Ken was right about me insulting them and I forgot its not because their evil but because they really don’t know. God says in Surah Maryam to warn them of the day of regret. Nouman Ali Khan talking about the verse says the word translated as “warn” is like a warning out of concern or love and so I had lost sight of that and thus Ken was right.
Ahh, don’t feel too bad. It’s not like Ken has never heard of Islam or doesn’t know anything about it. He chooses to give biased information and refuses to admit when he’s wrong. If he was just some random person who has only heard about Islam on the news, then I would agree with you. But this pimple has been engaging with Muslims for like 40 years, so there is no excuse of not knowing.
Yeah, I thought about that. But my wife made a good point about the Kens, Shamouns and Woods of the world. Allah must either:
1. Really hate them and is allowing them to increase in their punishment in the Fire.
Or
2. Really love them by allowing them to be given dawah everyday by engaging with Muslims and if they humble themselves and submit they would do a lot of good.
His followers did not believe that he was miraculously rescued, not killed at all. That makes no sense from Islamic perspective.
Superb post Paul.
This is so true…this post proves that Jesus (peace be upon him) never preached a doctrine of vicarious atonement or resurrection to his followers since if he did…then you are right…then a, b, or c would not have occurred.
With regards to Agnostic’s comment, this is not a problem from an Islamic perspective since the Qur’an does indicate that it appeared that he (Jesus) was crucified but he did not really die.
God fooled the followers of Christ and gave the truth to the Gnostics? That doesn’t make sense. What makes sense is the last paragraph of post.
God fooled the followers of Christ and gave the truth to the Gnostics? That doesn’t make sense.
Indeed! Bingo !
The Qur’an even says that Allah deceived them, he is the best of deceivers.
Surah 3:54-55
وَمَكَرُوا وَمَكَرَ اللَّهُ ۖ وَاللَّهُ خَيْرُ الْمَاكِرِينَ – 3:54
مکر – Makr – is a very negative word. trickery, deception, scheming, etc. –
Verse 55 says the God raised Jesus to Himself – so Allah deceived the people.
3:55
[Mention] when Allah said, “O Jesus, indeed I will take you and raise you to Myself and purify you from those who disbelieve and make those who follow you superior (Fowq, فوق ) to those who disbelieve until the Day of Resurrection. Surah 3:55
He also made the followers of Jesus superior to the unbelievers until the Day of Resurrection; and manifest / obvious / dominant (from ظاهر , in Surah 61:14
“O you who have believed, be supporters of Allah, as when Jesus, the son of Mary, said to the disciples, “Who are my supporters for Allah ?” The disciples said, “We are supporters of Allah .” And a faction of the Children of Israel believed and a faction disbelieved. So We supported those who believed against their enemy, and they became dominant.” Surah 61:14
But, history tells us that the believers / followers of Christ (NT, first century, 2nd – 5th centuries & beyond) believed in His death and resurrection, Deity, Lordship, eternal Sonship, which point to the doctrine of the Trinity, etc. and so, this also makes no sense and is an internal massive contradiction within Islam itself.
I remember that Mike Licona had a difficult time answering these implications.
(1:51:10′)
https://youtu.be/J1G3Y_FmJOA?t=6669
@ Agnostic
So I’ve decided to try and be nice to you is your question out of genuine curiosity or are you trying to troll? Its okay if you are just let me know before I begin an explanation.
It is about consistency. I agree with historical criticism of Christianity, it is necessary and helpful. I demand the same criticism for the orthodox Islamic narrative. If points a, b, c good points why ignore the last paragraph?
Jesus not being crucified or his disciples being devout Muslims cannot be sustained historically. And for further dialogue or discussion it is not helpful to claim it’s a miracle or it is literally historically true because God said so.
@ Agnostic
I never said anything about not being consistent I’m simply seeing if you are being genuine or attempting to troll as the last time I tried to engage in respectful discussion with you, you weren’t interested. You were given various sources and explanation but continued in your rant despite being disproven so rather than waste my time I’m gauging first.
PS
The historical method doesn’t account for the supernatural which is a valid argument because it’s not being looked for by historians and we accept it but that is a separate side tangent.
It is not reasonable to insist on supernatural truths that are contradicted by history. If the trinity is the Achilles heel of Christianity, then historicity of the Quranic tales and legends is for Islam. I see no willingness to engage this point here, your answer is another nail in the coffin of credibility of orthodox “dawah”.
But it wasn’t clear to the disciples that his rising again from the dead would also involve a reunion with Christ in the body on the third day. They did not appear to believe so.
@ Agnostic
Lol thank you for showing why no one treats you respectfully. You made a bunch of assumptions (and still are) and just run with it. But I appreciate you telling me that you are not interested in finding if something is true or not and simply just troll to waste of your short life.
@ Ken
With all due respect please stfu on things you haven’t studied because you sound stupid.
@stewjo004
Stfu = good arguments & application of Surah 16:125 & 29:46
No!
God fooled the followers of Christ and gave the truth to the Gnostics? That doesn’t make sense.
Indeed! Bingo !
The Qur’an even says that Allah deceived them, he is the best of deceivers.
Surah 3:54-55
وَمَكَرُوا وَمَكَرَ اللَّهُ ۖ وَاللَّهُ خَيْرُ الْمَاكِرِينَ – 3:54
مکر – Makr – is a very negative word. trickery, deception, scheming, etc. –
Verse 55 says the God raised Jesus to Himself – so Allah deceived the people.
3:55
[Mention] when Allah said, “O Jesus, indeed I will take you and raise you to Myself and purify you from those who disbelieve and make those who follow you superior (Fowq, فوق ) to those who disbelieve until the Day of Resurrection. Surah 3:55
He also made the followers of Jesus superior to the unbelievers until the Day of Resurrection; and manifest / obvious / dominant (from ظاهر , in Surah 61:14
“O you who have believed, be supporters of Allah, as when Jesus, the son of Mary, said to the disciples, “Who are my supporters for Allah ?” The disciples said, “We are supporters of Allah .” And a faction of the Children of Israel believed and a faction disbelieved. So We supported those who believed against their enemy, and they became dominant.” Surah 61:14
But, history tells us that the believers / followers of Christ (NT, first century, 2nd – 5th centuries & beyond) believed in His death and resurrection, Deity, Lordship, eternal Sonship, which point to the doctrine of the Trinity, etc. and so, this also makes no sense and is an internal massive contradiction within Islam itself.
@ Ken
That applies to people who are not kuffar. There is no difference of opinion that if you died on your current beliefs you would not be in Hell. You talk out your a** and act like you know ANYTHING about Islam. Neither you nor Agnostic have studied this subject but act like you have and it’s quite frankly annoying. For example:
Did you know that the switch theory was refuted by heavy hitter scholars? No.
Do you know where the switch theory even stems from? No.
Did you know there are other way stronger in both grammar and history pertaining to the verse? No.
Have you ever read the verse in its original language? No.
Have you ever read the context of the verse? No.
But for some reason, both of you seem to say stupid sh*t about Gnostics, historicity, miracles, deceivers etc. So as I said earlier with all due respect stfu if you haven’t studied something. Thank you and have a nice day.
I did not say anything here about the “Switch theory”. But it is clear that Allah deceived people into thinking that Jesus was crucified and died. This is proof the Qur’an is not from God, since it goes against all known historical facts. No, I will not shut up and you are using dirty talk like “talk out of your a**” and “stfu” = bad character – you are not obeying Surah 16:125.
It is annoying to you because I make good points.
😂🤣 There goes whiniy little Pennywise getting angry because he got put in his place. And isn’t it amazing how the clown always is his own cheerleader?
@ Ken
I promise you none of your points are very good you simply stuff your head up Shamoun’s but and act like an expert after saying a few Persian words. Next didn’t swear once you can simply infer it. The verse in question is a general rule but one can use harsh words with stubborn disbelievers like yourself, for example, Abu Bakr(ra) to Urwah or Moses(as) to the Pharaoh. You insult Islam all the time and are actively hostile to it so yes I will repeat once again you speak from the area where your back pocket lies.
Moving on:
1. Wasn’t talking about the switch with you this was from Agnostic’s ramblings. He made an assumption and ran with it and then you started piggybacking.
2. It doesn’t go against historical facts because you don’t know what you’re speaking on as you haven’t studied the subject.
I knew about those issues before Shamoun and Wood started their ministries.
I have studied the issues pretty well.
Is there a way to disagree with Islam, and sincerely believe it is a false religion, because of the logic that if NT Christianity is true, then logically and automatically, Islam is false; – is there a way for us Christians to sincerely believe that without you accusing us of “insulting Islam”, etc. ?
I mean you guys thrive and live to insult Christianity – everything you say and do is insulting to the true God, true Christ, true doctrine, etc. Most every post Paul W. puts up is an attack on Christianity and the Bible – but I don’t complain about that – I welcome civilized debate. You guys don’t like debate thought, just insults and name calling, when you run out of arguments. Stew – your latest stuff is full of cursing and ad hominem.
But it does not bother me – it is your side that keeps saying, “Islamophobe!”, “you insulted Islam”, “Pennywise”, “hypocrite”, “liar”, “idiot”, etc.
Matthew 5:21-26
summary:
Whoever is anger with another human being and calls him “idiot” (stupid, empty headed, fool) is guilty and is going to hell-fire.
There is no way to disagree – your whole system is forcing people and conquering and you won’t let anyone just disagree according to logic and reason – without your constant complaining of “insulting”, all the time people like Faiz / QB throws out insults and ad hominem and cursing and name calling and then turns it back, etc.
You cursed in your heart – it is obvious. God sees your heart – you typed abbreviations, but God knows your heart.
Mark 7:20-23
Jeremiah 17:9
The typing speaks out of your heart.
33 “Make a tree good and its fruit will be good, or make a tree bad and its fruit will be bad, for a tree is recognized by its fruit. 34 You brood of vipers, how can you who are evil say anything good? For the mouth speaks what the heart is full of. 35 A good man brings good things out of the good stored up in him, and an evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in him. 36 But I tell you that everyone will have to give account on the day of judgment for every empty word they have spoken. 37 For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned.”
Matthew 12:33-37
Waaah, waaah, you Muslims are a bunch of meanies cries Pennywise. Meanwhile, the hypocrite recently accused Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) of being a false prophet who was affected by “heat stroke”. Oh no, but that’s not an insult. Also, Pennywise’s pathetic blog is full of propaganda against Islam with words like “evil” peppered throughout. But oh no, that’s not insulting either. Pennywise says he uses “logic” to determine that the NT is “true” and yet there is not a speck of logic, only non-sequiturs, circular arguments and the usual “nope, you’re wrong” nonsense. Pennywise automatically rejects any scholarly view, without evidence, that disagrees with his preconceived notions. Is that “logical”? I think not.
So, I guess we meanies will continue to be mean to the little pimple named Kenny. That’s all you can do with little pus-filled zits. You pop them.
@ Ken
I was going to originally post an insulting message but as I thought about your post, you’re absolutely right I need to calm down and remember that you guys know next to nothing about Islam besides some biased piece or video you one time read. So thank you for the reminder
Is it just me or was that meant to be a subtle insult? 😆
@ QB
I actually wasn’t lol. I remembered the Prophet(saw) defined arrogance as:
1. Thinking your better than others
2. When the truth comes to you, you reject it.
Ken was right about me insulting them and I forgot its not because their evil but because they really don’t know. God says in Surah Maryam to warn them of the day of regret. Nouman Ali Khan talking about the verse says the word translated as “warn” is like a warning out of concern or love and so I had lost sight of that and thus Ken was right.
Ahh, don’t feel too bad. It’s not like Ken has never heard of Islam or doesn’t know anything about it. He chooses to give biased information and refuses to admit when he’s wrong. If he was just some random person who has only heard about Islam on the news, then I would agree with you. But this pimple has been engaging with Muslims for like 40 years, so there is no excuse of not knowing.
@ QB
Yeah, I thought about that. But my wife made a good point about the Kens, Shamouns and Woods of the world. Allah must either:
1. Really hate them and is allowing them to increase in their punishment in the Fire.
Or
2. Really love them by allowing them to be given dawah everyday by engaging with Muslims and if they humble themselves and submit they would do a lot of good.