I call the torah you have today the torah. Does that mean I think it’s preserved? No.
And it only talks about ONE verse and you don’t even know that.
3: I can quote you NUMEROUS statements from the PROPHET and the SAHABA all showing what you have today isn’t what is meant by uncorrupted injeel and taurat.
Since the Qur’an sincerely thought the gospel was written and a book الکتاب that the Christians (and for OT the Jews), they were still reading the book at the time (Surah 5:47; 5:68; 10:94), it proves that the Islamic sources affirm and confirm the previous Scriptures. (although ignorant of details of the content)
Say, “O People of the Scripture [al-kitab الکتاب = the writing, “the book”] , you are [standing] on nothing until you uphold [the law of] the Torah, the Gospel, and what has been revealed to you from your Lord.” And that which has been revealed to you from your Lord will surely increase many of them in transgression and disbelief. So do not grieve over the disbelieving people.
Surah 5:68 (with my emphasis on the writing, Al-kitab / الکتاب )
Good job zombie you are back to square one.
Keep repeating, just keeeep repeating. You were shown that Q 6:115 was about the decree than you jump to a hadith. Then when asked to prove your point from the hadith you go all the way back to the first pile of trashargument.
WHAT VERSE was it?
It only talks about ONE verse from one arab. Is that proof?
I challange you to show me where Q 10:94 says anything about preservation of the scriptures. It only says to ask the people of the book and this was concerning the pagans who believed messengers couldn’t be men but only angels.
And quoting surah 5 will NOT help you since Q 5:48 tells xtians and jews how to judge by their scriptures.
What a fail.
O and I’m still waiting for you to even TOUCH these hadiths:
The Bani Israel wrote a book, they followed it and left the Torah. (This hadith was reported in Tabarani’s Al Mu’jam Al Awsat and was authenticated by Sheikh Nasr Al Deen Al Albani in his Silsila Al Ahaadeeth Al Saheeha, hadith no. 2832.)
The Bani Israel as a long time passed and their hearts became hardened, they invented a book from themselves. It took over their hearts and their tongues. (This hadith was reported in Al Bayhaqi’s Shu’b Al Eemaan, Volume 2, no.439. Sheikh Nasr Al Deen Al Albani has authenticated this hadith in his Silsila Al Ahaadeeth Al Saheeha, hadith no. 2694.)
He has sent down upon you, [O Muhammad], the Book [written Scripture] in truth, confirming what was before it. And He revealed the Torah and the Gospel.
The Qur’an here and other places shows the basic principle that when he says in 6:114-115, “there is no changing the words of God”, that he is including both the decrees (judgments, decisions, rulings on unbelievers and jinn and devils (as in the context of 6:112-113) AND also the written Scriptures of God, because they only we know about those decrees (the ones we know of) – they were written down so that we can know them today.
Quoting Surah 5:47-48 and 5:68 DOES help me – it proves the Qur’an affirms and claims to protect / guard the previous Scriptures “between the hands” = the Scriptures the Jews and Christians had in their possession at the time.
Lol!!!
The context surrounding Q6:115 make it CLEAR it’s talking about the decree. There is nothing in the context that says ANYTHING about preserving the scriptures. The text doesn’t say anything about WRITTEN decrees either. Wth are you talking about. And Q.5:48 can be perfectly understood as a the Quran being a corrector and many classical commentators understood it that way. You go to ‘unclear’ verses to force your interpratation into it when clearcut texts like for example the hadiths about the prophet saying the torah was changed, the jews wrote a new book and left it, make it clear that your joke of an argument is trash Kenny.
It just goes to show you why they are Shayateen and ironically fulfill what the ayat speaks of. He has given no type of refutation to my points and drones on and on with his preconceived notion. He is literally repeating his same crap over again after being THOURGHLY refuted about the actual meaning of the ayat.
This is why QB doesn’t speak respectfully because they are not interested in engaging in respectful dialogue. Instead of admitting this ayat does not mean that and moving on to the next they want to blitz crap and hope to catch ignorant people about the deen and pull them into their shirk.
Look at this liar.
Look how he perverts the Qur’an’s meaning.
Let people notice ones and for all that Kenny got humiliated. He got owned and was challenged to show where (3:3; 5:46-48; 5:68; 10:94; 6:114-115) in these verses it says anything about preservation of the previous scriptures. He couldn’t. He couldn’t refute the fact that Q 5:48 being a corrector of the scriptures is a valid interpretation which makes it clear that the verses regarding the gospel and torah have to be read through the lens of the Quran. He couldn’t refute the fact that Q.10:94 talks just about asking the PEOPLE of the scripture about messengers being men and not just angels like the pagans believed which is what the verse was referring to. And of course the clown got slapped around by Stew regarding Q.6:115 where the context couldn’t be any clearer that is talking about the decree and NOTHING about scripture like all the scholars agreed.
And now he quotes proverbs. How the hell do these people live with themselves. Now they’re even claiming proverbs is part of what the Qur’an call the Taurat which was btw GIVEN to Moses. Unbelieveble.
It (Surah 5:48) does not say “corrector”; rather it says “confirming” مصدق (we have this word and related words to this in Farsi, and I know what it means) and مهیمنا (Muhaymena) guarding and protecting. It does not mean “correcting” or “criterion” or “sifting” or “quality control”, etc.
PICKTHALL
And unto thee have We revealed the Scripture with the truth, confirming whatever Scripture was before it, and a watcher over it. So judge between them by that which Allah hath revealed, and follow not their desires away from the truth which hath come unto thee. For each We have appointed a divine law and a traced-out way. Had Allah willed He could have made you one community. But that He may try you by that which He hath given you (He hath made you as ye are). So vie one with another in good works. Unto Allah ye will all return, and He will then inform you of that wherein ye differ.
YUSUF ALI
To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If Allah had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to Allah; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute;
FARSI
و (این) کتاب (= قرآن) را به حق بر تو نازل کردیم در حالی که
تصدیق کننده ی کتابهای که پیش از آن است و بر آنها
شاهد و نگاهبان است،
پس به آنچه خدا نازل کرده است در میان آنها حکم کن و از هوی و هوسهای آنان به جای آنچه از حق که به تو رسیده است، پیروی نکن (و از احکام الهی روی مگردان) ما برای هر کدام از شما، آیین و طریقه روشنی قرار دادیم و اگر خدا می خواست همه ی شما را یک امت قرار می داد، ولی (خدا می خواهد) شما در آنچه به شما داده است بیازماید، پس در نیکیها بر یکدیگر پیشی گیرید، بازگشت همه ی شما به سوی خداست، آنگاه از آنچه در آن اختلاف می کردید به شماخبر می هد.
ABUL ALA MAUDUDI(WITH TAFSIR)
(5:48) Then We revealed the Book to you (O Muhammad!) with Truth, confirming whatever of the Book was revealed before, and protecting and guarding over it.
Being a criterion over them means we use the Quran to determine what is true and what is false. The previous scriptures are not the criterion over the Quran.
I asked for proof Kenny. You said that it can’t be a criterion. You are wrong. Quoting some translations doesn’t prove it. I can quote a translation as well:
Sahih International: And We have revealed to you, [O Muúammad], the Book in truth, confirming that which preceded it of the Scripture and as a CRITERION over it.
that’s a bad and biased translation on the word, muhayminan
مُهیمِناً
It clearly means “watcher”, “protector”, “guard over”, etc.
And it proves the Qur’an affirms and claims to watch over the previous Scriptures of the time of Muhammad, which the Jews and Christians had with them (between their hands).
Yes, the Quran protects the previous scriptures. But how would it do that if they were revealed long ago? The answer is that it confirms the true scripture from the falsehood of the Jews and Christians. Thus, it is a protector of the true scriptures and a criterion over the falsehood added to them. For exampl, I was just reading Surah Tawbah and came across this verse:
“Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Qur’an: and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah? then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded: that is the achievement supreme.”
So this promise was in the Torah and Gospel. The Quran confirms this and thus protects the true scriptures.
Lol yea right! It’s bad to YOU since you’re so desperate for the Holy Qur’an to confirm the non-existing authenticity of your comicbook. And then the way you throw out words like ‘It clearly means… And it proves the Qur’an affirms…’
Lol. Is that the best you got?
What a joker.
Your tactic of argumentation – “you are whining” – nope; it is your method of avoiding how wrong you are and when you cannot deal with logic and reason and texts, you resort to that.
More whining. You have bee absolutely crushed in this and pretty much every other discussion. Your dishonesty, inconsistencies, double standards and fallacies have been exposed over and over again. Face it: you are a biased and unreliable source of information. So stop whining and get on with it.
Nope. Difference of opinion is not dishonesty or inconsistency, and pointing out your sinful behavior is not whining. it is speaking truth to your arrogance.
It is clear that the Qur’an confirms the previous Scriptures and claims to confirm and watch over / protect them.
and in 6:114-115 he is not saying “only that one judgment on the devil and humans in unchangeable” but all words (plural) of God cannot be changed, even those that the Judge has given both in the written book, the Qur’an, and in the previous Scriptures, “one one can change the words of God”
Your opinion is worthless and yes it is just an opinion. Facts are basked up by evidence. Stew has given evidence. You have just mindlessly repeated your opinion without evidence and the jump around when you are cornered. So stop whining. You will be put in your place as long as you continue to lie and try to pass off your worthless opinions and copy/paste garbage as “facts”.
There is no “principle” it is your dishonest twisting of the Quran and trying to focus on ambiguity and ignoring what is clear cut either out of arrogance or ignorance.
The verse has nothing to do with Scriptures it is about decrees as the context dictates. This decree is mentioned in the QUR’AN and it is “I will fill Hell with humans and demons”. You have not been able to get around this and you will not. Nobody agrees with you and this is why God allows you to be misguided.
the decree, or judgment or decision of God is to “fill hell with humans and demons”. Surah 11:119
this judgment (one, singular) is sure, and no one can change the Words (plural) of God, so it does include the Written Scriptures. Otherwise, you don’t have any basis for trusting anything else in “God’s Word”.
Is the Qur’an “the Word of God” ?
Is the previous Scriptures the Word of God? (whether the original that was later corrupted, according to the Islamic anachronistic and no evidence understanding; or whether it means (which is surely does mean) that the Scriptures of the people of the book are “with them” (between the hands – بین یدیه, and related phrases all throughout the Qur’an)
This decree is only written in the Quran. This further refutes your silly argument. If the verse is talking about scripture, then it only applies to the Quran and not to the previous scriptures.
Here is a simple challenge, Kenny. If you can’t meet it, man-up and admit it and salvage what’s left of your dignity.
Show me just ONE verse from BOTH the Tanakh and NT that quotes God as saying “I will fill hell with men and demons”. It must say exactly this. Don’t go quoting Revelation or something.
How do you know that 6:112-115 is referring back to Surah 11:119?
Where is the word “decree” in this passage?
6:114 –
[Say], “Then is it other than Allah I should seek as judge while it is He who has revealed to you the Book explained in detail?” And those to whom We [previously] gave the Scripture know that it is sent down from your Lord in truth, so never be among the doubters.
In other words, Why should I seek someone other than Allah to make a judgment (decree), since He is the Judge حکما (we also have this word and its related words in Farsi, Judge, Sovereign governor , Ruler حاکم, decision, command ، حکومت – government, command = حکم , it is He who has revealed to you the Book explained in detail?
Interesting that the Qur’an is saying, basically, “the judgement / decision/ decree is sure, as God is the Judge, who also revealed the written Scriptures explained in detail – the place where you know you can go and resort to and read and get guidance and other judgements/decisions, if you need guidance.
And those to whom we previously gave the Scripture know that it is sent down from your Lord in truth” = the written Scriptures are from God and “sent down from your Lord in truth” = Divine Revelation, inspiration on the writings / books. (for the previous Scriptures = Law, Zobur, Prophets (OT), Gospel (NT)
“Then He will also say to those on His left [humans who are like goats as opposed to the good people/believers who are sheep who follow the Lord] , ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;
Matthew 25:41
Isaiah 66:24
All [m]mankind will come to bow down before Me,” says the Lord.
24 “Then they will go forth and look
On the corpses of the men
Who have transgressed against Me.
For their worm will not die
And their fire will not be quenched;
And they will be an abhorrence to all mankind.”
This is quoted by Jesus in Mark 9:47-48
47 If your eye causes you to stumble, throw it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than, having two eyes, to be cast into hell, 48 where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched. (quoting Isaiah 66:24)
Since the NT is progressive revelation continuing the Old Testament, it is not necessary for all details to be in the OT, since they are later revealed in the NT.
and with the NT, revelation from God is finished. (Jude 3 – “the faith delivered once for all time to the saints”)
So Qur’an is 600 years too late and just one man’s empty claim.
So Kenny the clown cannot meet the challenge, and instead of admitting it, he moves the goalpost. This guy is completely hopeless. He just does not want to listen to reason because it would be inconvenient.
You are the one who keeps insisting that 6:115 is talking about scripture. Only the Quran quotes God as saying that He will fill hell with men and jinn. Your Bible does not. Therefore, by your own standard, the verse cannot be talking about the previous scriptures. Thank you for proving that you are a dishonest man-demon. As Stew said, this verse actually applies quite appropriately to you. Unless you repent, God will fill hell with you and your ilk for your idolatry and lies.
So Faizy the clown cannot deal with the fact and truth that the Qur’an confirms and claims to watch over the previous Scriptures and that no one can change the words of God, because there are so many copies that confirm what the Written word was.
I have no fear of punishment in hell, because of the promises of the Word of God, the Scriptures (the ones before the man made subjective claim of Muhammad.
15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. 16 We have come to know and have believed the love which God has for us. God is love, and the one who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him. 17 By this, love is perfected with us, so that we may have confidence in the day of judgment; because as He is, so also are we in this world. 18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love. 19 We love, because He first loved us.
1 John 4:15-19 (written sometime between 80-90 AD, long before your 600 year late book was written by humans)
1 John 2:25
This is the promise which He Himself made to us: eternal life.
True believers in Christ have no fear of death or punishment in hell, because of His grace of His atonement, resurrection, salvation, and sealing with the Holy Spirit of promise.
blah, blah, blah, your Qur’an is 600 years too late and full of contradictions and anachronistic claims. Just a subjective one man’s claim who got too many heat strokes in the desert and had wild encounters, and even thought he was being possessed by a demon and foamed at the mouth and almost threw himself over the cliff and felt the demon squeezing him.
Yes, in context 6:115 is talking about written Scriptures, because the context is verse 114, which mentions the written revelation of the Qur’an and the written revelations of the previous Scriptures and the plural “words” of God in 6:115 expands it to beyond that one judgment / decree.
Jumping around again, just like an amphibian high on drugs!
Stew already showed that the context is about God’s decrees. Your pathetic tafsir is ridiculous and unproven. All you do is make circular arguments, nothing more.
And then you failed to support your own position when given the chance. You failed to provide even ONE verse from your Bible that matches God’s decree in the Quran.
Surah 15:9:
“Verily, we have sent down the Reminder الذکر (Al-Zekr) , and, verily, WE will guard it.”
إِنَّا نَحْنُ نَزَّلْنَا الذِّكْرَ وَإِنَّا لَهُ لَحَافِظُونَ – 15:9
The verse states clearly that God is promising to protect the scripture (the Reminder).
It also demonstrates that the text of the Holy Bible is not corrupt, nor can it be, by the Qur’an’s own admission.
If anyone argues that the word “Reminder (Zikr – Arabic)” is only talking about the Qur’an, the following verses refute that argument, since it also refers to the Torah as “Reminder”:
“And already have we written in the Psalms after the reminder that the earth shall my righteous servants inherit.” Surah 21:105
And We have already written in the book [of Psalms] after the Reminder (Al Zekr / الذکر that the land [of Paradise] is inherited by My righteous servants.
These other passages also identify the scriptures in the possession of the Jews and Christians as the Reminder:
Surah 16:43
وَمَا أَرْسَلْنَا مِن قَبْلِكَ إِلَّا رِجَالًا نُّوحِي إِلَيْهِمْ ۚ فَاسْأَلُوا أَهْلَ الذِّكْرِ إِن كُنتُمْ لَا تَعْلَمُونَ – 16:43
SAHIH INTERNATIONAL
And We sent not before you except men to whom We revealed [Our message]. So ask the people of the message (Al-Zekr = the Reminder) if you do not know.
Surah 21:7
And We sent not before you (O Muhammad SAW) but men to whom We inspired, so ask the people of the Reminder [Scriptures – the Taurat (Torah), the Injeel (Gospel)] if you do not know.
Surah 21:48
And We had already given Moses and Aaron the criterion (Al-Furqan – الفرقان )and a light and a reminder ذکرا for the righteous
Surah 40:53-54.
And, indeed We gave Musa (Moses) the guidance, and We caused the Children of Israel to inherit the Scripture [i.e. the Taurat (Torah)],
A guide and a reminder ذکری for men of understanding.
So, the previous Scriptures are also promised the be protected.
“there is no changing the words of God” – the principle stands.
My goodness, the level of stupidity and dishonesty in Pennywise is amazing! Let me guess. You went ahead and copied this drivel from Shamoun, right?😂
It shows that you are incapable of honest research. The context of Surah 15:9 is ONLY the Quran! If you weren’t such a clown, you would have seen that. Read it from the beginning!
Irrelevant Pennywise! The context of the promise in verse 15:9 is with regard to the Quran only! Here’s another challenge for you. Show one verse from the Quran where a promise is given in context to protect the Torah or Injeel from corruption.
You’re already failed one challenge. Go on. Run back to your bff Shamoun.
Also:
And We sent not before you (O Muhammad SAW) but men to whom We inspired, so ask the people of the Reminder [Scriptures – the Taurat (Torah), the Injeel (Gospel)] if you do not know.
Surah 21:7
same as 10:94 – says “go ask the people of the Reminder, the Scriptures, the ones who were reading the book before you.
Lying again? Is it that hard to admit you’re wrong? There is no promise to protect the previous scriptures, stupid. Get over it. The only promise was regarding the Quran, a promise which has been fulfilled and which proves the Quran is from God. So even IF the previous scriptures were not corrupted, which they are, it wouldn’t matter. You would still need to follow the Quran because it is the last and final Criterion. So I guess you’ll be converting to Islam, right Pennywise?
It’s the Criterion you stupid clown frog. It protects the previous scriptures from the corruption that you heretics have inserted into them. And more importantly, it now abrogates and replaces the previous scriptures. So will you be converting to Islam now?
Uh huh, sure, sure. Just because you believe you made a substantive and intelligentargument, doesn’t mean you did. People believe in Bigfoot too…it doesn’t mean it exists. You have never made an intelligent argument in recent memory Pennywise.
The commencement of the Divine Inspiration to Allah’s Apostle was in the form of good righteous (true) dreams in his sleep. He never had a dream but that it came true like bright day light. He used to go in seclusion (the cave of) Hira where he used to worship(Allah Alone) continuously for many (days) nights. He used to take with him the journey food for that (stay) and then come back to (his wife) Khadija to take his food like-wise again for another period to stay, till suddenly the Truth descended upon him while he was in the cave of Hira. The angel came to him in it and asked him to read. The Prophet replied, “I do not know how to read.” (The Prophet added), “The angel caught me (forcefully) and pressed me so hard that I could not bear it anymore. He then released me and again asked me to read, and I replied, “I do not know how to read,” whereupon he caught me again and pressed me a second time till I could not bear it anymore. He then released me and asked me again to read, but again I replied, “I do not know how to read (or, what shall I read?).” Thereupon he caught me for the third time and pressed me and then released me and said, “Read: In the Name of your Lord, Who has created (all that exists). Has created man from a clot. Read and Your Lord is Most Generous…up to….. ..that which he knew not.” (96.15)
Then Allah’s Apostle returned with the Inspiration, his neck muscles twitching with terror till he entered upon Khadija and said, “Cover me! Cover me!” They covered him till his fear was over and then he said, “O Khadija, what is wrong with me?” Then he told her everything that had happened and said, ‘I fear that something may happen to me.” Khadija said, ‘Never! But have the glad tidings, for by Allah, Allah will never disgrace you as you keep good relations with your Kith and kin, speak the truth, help the poor and the destitute, serve your guest generously and assist the deserving, calamity-afflicted ones.”
… But after a few days Waraqa died and the Divine Inspiration was also paused for a while and the Prophet became so sad as we have heard that he intended several times to throw himself from the tops of high mountains and every time he went up the top of a mountain in order to throw himself down, Gabriel would appear before him and say, “O Muhammad! You are indeed Allah’s Apostle in truth” whereupon his heart would become quiet and he would calm down and would return home. And whenever the period of the coming of the inspiration used to become long, he would do as before, but when he used to reach the top of a mountain, Gabriel would appear before him and say to him what he had said before. (Ibn ‘Abbas said regarding the meaning of: ‘He it is that Cleaves the daybreak (from the darkness)’ (6.96) that Al-Asbah means the light of the sun during the day and the light of the moon at night).
I have shown 2 other spots where the plural “words” is used for the decrees:
66:12. As well as Mary, the daughter of Amram who guarded her virtue, so I breathed My Spirit into her. She believed in her Lord’s Words, His Scriptures and was among the devout…
Notice “she believed in His words AND His Scriptures” indicating they are separate from one another. This verse is enough to refute you but:
6:34. There were Messengers who were rejected before you. But they remained patient when they were rejected and persecuted, until My help came to them. None can change God’s words and you’ve already received news about what happened with these Messengers.
None can change God’s words again AND as a bonus, it’s in the SAME Surah you and I are discussing. The context of this is obviously the decree (which is again mentioned in the Qur’an)
So I’m sorry you were going on about something about plural usage or whatever?
66:12. As well as Mary, the daughter of Amram who guarded her virtue, so I breathed My Spirit into her. She believed in her Lord’s Words, His Scriptures and was among the devout…
Notice “she believed in His words AND His Scriptures” indicating they are separate from one another.
Actually, that is even stronger for my case – since His words are written down in Scripture; and the verse is saying that faith in the verbal promise of God is also faith in the written words of God.
Yes, in context 6:115 is talking about written Scriptures, because the context is verse 114, which mentions the written revelation of the Qur’an and the written revelations of the previous Scriptures and the plural “words” of God in 6:115 expands it to beyond that one judgment / decree.
He has sent down upon you, [O Muhammad], the Book [written Scripture] in truth, confirming what was before it. And He revealed the Torah and the Gospel.
The Qur’an here and other places shows the basic principle that when he says in 6:114-115, “there is no changing the words of God”, that he is including both the decrees (judgments, decisions, rulings on unbelievers and jinn and devils (as in the context of 6:112-113) AND also the written Scriptures of God, because they only we know about those decrees (the ones we know of) – they were written down so that we can know them today.
Quoting Surah 5:47-48 and 5:68 DOES help me – it proves the Qur’an affirms and claims to protect / guard the previous Scriptures “between the hands” = the Scriptures the Jews and Christians had in their possession at the time.
There is no “principle” you are trying to twist the Qur’an which is why you keep trying to jump around instead of going down the line one at a time. ALL of these verses you quoted don’t help you but you are too arrogant to admit 6:115 doesn’t mean anything about the Scriptures so we can move on to the next one.
Surah 15:9:
“Verily, we have sent down the Reminder الذکر (Al-Zekr) , and, verily, WE will guard it.”
إِنَّا نَحْنُ نَزَّلْنَا الذِّكْرَ وَإِنَّا لَهُ لَحَافِظُونَ – 15:9
The verse states clearly that God is promising to protect the scripture (the Reminder).
It also demonstrates that the text of the Holy Bible is not corrupt, nor can it be, by the Qur’an’s own admission.
If anyone argues that the word “Reminder (Zikr – Arabic)” is only talking about the Qur’an, the following verses refute that argument, since it also refers to the Torah as “Reminder”:
“And already have we written in the Psalms after the reminder that the earth shall my righteous servants inherit.” Surah 21:105
And We have already written in the book [of Psalms] after the Reminder (Al Zekr / الذکر that the land [of Paradise] is inherited by My righteous servants.
These other passages also identify the scriptures in the possession of the Jews and Christians as the Reminder:
Surah 16:43
وَمَا أَرْسَلْنَا مِن قَبْلِكَ إِلَّا رِجَالًا نُّوحِي إِلَيْهِمْ ۚ فَاسْأَلُوا أَهْلَ الذِّكْرِ إِن كُنتُمْ لَا تَعْلَمُونَ – 16:43
SAHIH INTERNATIONAL
And We sent not before you except men to whom We revealed [Our message]. So ask the people of the message (Al-Zekr = the Reminder) if you do not know.
Surah 21:7
And We sent not before you (O Muhammad SAW) but men to whom We inspired, so ask the people of the Reminder [Scriptures – the Taurat (Torah), the Injeel (Gospel)] if you do not know.
Surah 21:48
And We had already given Moses and Aaron the criterion (Al-Furqan – الفرقان )and a light and a reminder ذکرا for the righteous
Surah 40:53-54.
And, indeed We gave Musa (Moses) the guidance, and We caused the Children of Israel to inherit the Scripture [i.e. the Taurat (Torah)],
A guide and a reminder ذکری for men of understanding.
So, the previous Scriptures are also promised the be protected.
“there is no changing the words of God” – the principle stands.
No, the mention of written scripture and the previous Scriptures in verse 114 proves I am the one who stays in context; along with the plural in verse 115. 114 and 115 are one after the other; so I stayed in context.
PICKTHALL
And We verily gave Moses and Aaron the Criterion (of right and wrong) and a light and a Reminder for those who keep from evil,
SAHIH INTERNATIONAL
And We had already given Moses and Aaron the criterion and a light and a reminder for the righteous
Seriously? Wa is a conjugation of two separate things. If I said I like motorcycles AND vanilla ice cream would you say they are the same thing? A normal person would say no. There is nothing in the verse to indicate what you are claiming. The Words(decrees) and Scriptures are separate things in the verse end of story I’m not playing this game with you. You are wrong Ken drop it.
It can mean 2 separate things or two similar things, or for emphasis (as below), repeating the same thing, or also, “and, even” – as in “words, and even the Scriptures”
From online Arabic dictionary –
used between two words that are the same to make their meaning stronger
Pennywise the jumping clown frog jumps again! As with 6:115, you did the same thing with 15:9. You got refuted about the context, and to weasel yourself out of another hole, you jumped to another verse. You are pathetic, dude! No wonder you’re a manworshipping pagan. Logic and reason mean nothing to you!
Basically. He wants to ignore all context and evidence; and just takele his word despite there being no evidence except from the deep recess of his mind and butt.
Contextually that makes no sense your entire argument is essentially let’s ignore:
1. Context of the passage/chapter
2. No scholarship agrees
3. The passage is used in other places for the decree
4. Other places in the Quran elaborate more on the passage which states its a decree
5. The chapter was not sent down about the Scriptures
And go with my bias, no evidence having opinion, that ignores what is clear for ambiguity as I continue to just make more and more stuff up with no evidence other than “I feel” this is what it means. I’m going to help you out Ken, this is not the Bible, NOBODY CARES about you or my opinion and one cannot make things up out of thin air. Muslims care about E.V.I.D.E.N.C.E. What evidence can you present from the context of the chapter ONLY that confirms your wrong/bias opinion?
Surah 21:7
And We sent not before you (O Muhammad SAW) but men to whom We inspired, so ask the people of the Reminder [Scriptures – the Taurat (Torah), the Injeel (Gospel)] if you do not know.
“ask the people of the Reminder / the Scriptures (before you)”
same as 10:94
go and ask the people who reading the Scriptures before you
Not the meaning of the ayat and (see how their seperate topics?) Not what I asked. You are comming in with a predetermined belief and trying to deseperatly pick for something bto support it. Where in Surah Anam (Chapter 6) is evidence for your claim?
You are comming in with a predetermined belief and trying to deseperatly pick for something bto support it.
That is pretty rich! coming from some one who follows a religion that is entirely based on a 600 year later and too late pre-determined idea, and then tries desperately to force it into the events of the previous revelations.
That’s pretty rich, coming from someone whose religion can a thousand years too late and tried to change everything taught in Judaism. Not to mention that your religion is just repackaged paganism and your Bible a hodge-podge of random stories written by anonymous people who copied from pagan mythology.
Actually the NT totally affirms and fulfills all the OT. It honors the seriousness of the temple and the sacrificial system with Jesus being the ultimate and final sacrificial lamb for sins; yet your book is the one that almost completely ignores the sacrificial system in the OT. (Yet affirms it in an ironic way in Surah 37:107. “We have ransomed him with a mighty sacrifice.”
Except your book says there is continuity from OT to John the Baptist. See the quotes and connections from the book of Malachi to John the Baptist in Matthew, Mark, Luke. Luke 1:17 – quotes from Malachi that he came in the spirit and power of Elijah. There is only 430 years between Chronicles, (not 1,000) the last book written in OT to John the Baptizer and Jesus. All the NT books are quoting the OT. You totally choked on that. Jesus Himself and the rest of the NT said He is the fulfillment of all the OT.
Actually the NT contradicts the Tanakh with its manworshipping paganism. Of course, the Tanakh is also guilty of borrowing from pagan mythology as well in some places but it doesn’t explicit try to excuse it.
6:115 is talking about written Scriptures , because the context is verse 114, which mentions the written revelation of the Qur’an and the written revelations of the previous Scriptures and the plural “words” of God in 6:115 expands it to beyond that one judgment / decree.
It’s not rich you came in with an predetermined belief and tried to pick for something to support it like you all did with the Trinity. Christians generally suck at interpretation and I’ve noticed none of you have rules its just this is what I feel. Going with your bs why would God mention this to Muslims in Surah 6 and how doea this fit with the theme of the chapter?
Also ps QB is right you are in NO position to talk about things coming later.
But he did mention it there in 6:114-115 – why would he mention “written scripture” الکتاب and the previous Scriptures?
[Say], “Then is it other than Allah I should seek as judge while it is He who has revealed to you the Book explained in detail?” And those to whom We [previously] gave the Scripture know that it is sent down from your Lord in truth, so never be among the doubters.
he even says it is explained in detail
“words” plural in 6:115 includes the book in the previous verse with details explains AND the previous Scriptures –
I answered this already. The verse was revealed because the people of the Scripture asked for an arbitrator insinserely. They are among the people inspiring propaganda and are part of the decree of going to Hell.
The clown frog jumps again. After all this time, he has yet to stay in one place and discuss each ayat. The self-delusion and deception is strong in this one.
@ Atlas
Notice he hasn’t refuted any of my points he is just trying to continue to force his and Shamoun’s “interpretation” into the verse.
@ Atlas,
The Hadith calls the Gospel “God’s word”.
So the principle stands.
Aam
1: which gospel is it?
2: what verse?
I call the torah you have today the torah. Does that mean I think it’s preserved? No.
And it only talks about ONE verse and you don’t even know that.
3: I can quote you NUMEROUS statements from the PROPHET and the SAHABA all showing what you have today isn’t what is meant by uncorrupted injeel and taurat.
You fail again.
Since the Qur’an sincerely thought the gospel was written and a book الکتاب that the Christians (and for OT the Jews), they were still reading the book at the time (Surah 5:47; 5:68; 10:94), it proves that the Islamic sources affirm and confirm the previous Scriptures. (although ignorant of details of the content)
Say, “O People of the Scripture [al-kitab الکتاب = the writing, “the book”] , you are [standing] on nothing until you uphold [the law of] the Torah, the Gospel, and what has been revealed to you from your Lord.” And that which has been revealed to you from your Lord will surely increase many of them in transgression and disbelief. So do not grieve over the disbelieving people.
Surah 5:68 (with my emphasis on the writing, Al-kitab / الکتاب )
قُلْ يَا أَهْلَ الْكِتَابِ لَسْتُمْ عَلَىٰ شَيْءٍ حَتَّىٰ تُقِيمُوا التَّوْرَاةَ وَالْإِنجِيلَ وَمَا أُنزِلَ إِلَيْكُم مِّن رَّبِّكُمْ ۗ وَلَيَزِيدَنَّ كَثِيرًا مِّنْهُم مَّا أُنزِلَ إِلَيْكَ مِن رَّبِّكَ طُغْيَانًا وَكُفْرًا ۖ فَلَا تَأْسَ عَلَى الْقَوْمِ الْكَافِرِينَ – 5:68
Good job zombie you are back to square one.
Keep repeating, just keeeep repeating. You were shown that Q 6:115 was about the decree than you jump to a hadith. Then when asked to prove your point from the hadith you go all the way back to the first pile of trashargument.
WHAT VERSE was it?
It only talks about ONE verse from one arab. Is that proof?
I challange you to show me where Q 10:94 says anything about preservation of the scriptures. It only says to ask the people of the book and this was concerning the pagans who believed messengers couldn’t be men but only angels.
And quoting surah 5 will NOT help you since Q 5:48 tells xtians and jews how to judge by their scriptures.
What a fail.
O and I’m still waiting for you to even TOUCH these hadiths:
The Bani Israel wrote a book, they followed it and left the Torah. (This hadith was reported in Tabarani’s Al Mu’jam Al Awsat and was authenticated by Sheikh Nasr Al Deen Al Albani in his Silsila Al Ahaadeeth Al Saheeha, hadith no. 2832.)
The Bani Israel as a long time passed and their hearts became hardened, they invented a book from themselves. It took over their hearts and their tongues. (This hadith was reported in Al Bayhaqi’s Shu’b Al Eemaan, Volume 2, no.439. Sheikh Nasr Al Deen Al Albani has authenticated this hadith in his Silsila Al Ahaadeeth Al Saheeha, hadith no. 2694.)
And as always no refutation will be given.
He has sent down upon you, [O Muhammad], the Book [written Scripture] in truth, confirming what was before it. And He revealed the Torah and the Gospel.
نَزَّلَ عَلَيْكَ الْكِتَابَ بِالْحَقِّ مُصَدِّقًا لِّمَا بَيْنَ يَدَيْهِ وَأَنزَلَ التَّوْرَاةَ وَالْإِنجِيلَ
Surah 3:3
The Qur’an here and other places shows the basic principle that when he says in 6:114-115, “there is no changing the words of God”, that he is including both the decrees (judgments, decisions, rulings on unbelievers and jinn and devils (as in the context of 6:112-113) AND also the written Scriptures of God, because they only we know about those decrees (the ones we know of) – they were written down so that we can know them today.
Quoting Surah 5:47-48 and 5:68 DOES help me – it proves the Qur’an affirms and claims to protect / guard the previous Scriptures “between the hands” = the Scriptures the Jews and Christians had in their possession at the time.
There is no way for you to escape the principle.
Lol!!!
The context surrounding Q6:115 make it CLEAR it’s talking about the decree. There is nothing in the context that says ANYTHING about preserving the scriptures. The text doesn’t say anything about WRITTEN decrees either. Wth are you talking about. And Q.5:48 can be perfectly understood as a the Quran being a corrector and many classical commentators understood it that way. You go to ‘unclear’ verses to force your interpratation into it when clearcut texts like for example the hadiths about the prophet saying the torah was changed, the jews wrote a new book and left it, make it clear that your joke of an argument is trash Kenny.
This clown is unbelieveble.
because they only we know about those decrees (the ones we know of) because they were written down.
@ Ken
One this is an argument from ignorance fallacy.
Two you are still deflecting focus on the Quran first which is what the topic was and what you and Shamoun claimed.
@ Atlas
It just goes to show you why they are Shayateen and ironically fulfill what the ayat speaks of. He has given no type of refutation to my points and drones on and on with his preconceived notion. He is literally repeating his same crap over again after being THOURGHLY refuted about the actual meaning of the ayat.
This is why QB doesn’t speak respectfully because they are not interested in engaging in respectful dialogue. Instead of admitting this ayat does not mean that and moving on to the next they want to blitz crap and hope to catch ignorant people about the deen and pull them into their shirk.
Exactly. Though I do feel that QB and I go to far with our attitude even with them.
“A gentle answer turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger.” Proverbs 15:1
Paul Williams recently tweeted this verse from the Holy Bible, which is confirmed by the Qur’an. (3:3; 5:46-48; 5:68; 10:94; 6:114-115)
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D70Sd9qXkAEipfL.jpg:large
Look at this liar.
Look how he perverts the Qur’an’s meaning.
Let people notice ones and for all that Kenny got humiliated. He got owned and was challenged to show where (3:3; 5:46-48; 5:68; 10:94; 6:114-115) in these verses it says anything about preservation of the previous scriptures. He couldn’t. He couldn’t refute the fact that Q 5:48 being a corrector of the scriptures is a valid interpretation which makes it clear that the verses regarding the gospel and torah have to be read through the lens of the Quran. He couldn’t refute the fact that Q.10:94 talks just about asking the PEOPLE of the scripture about messengers being men and not just angels like the pagans believed which is what the verse was referring to. And of course the clown got slapped around by Stew regarding Q.6:115 where the context couldn’t be any clearer that is talking about the decree and NOTHING about scripture like all the scholars agreed.
And now he quotes proverbs. How the hell do these people live with themselves. Now they’re even claiming proverbs is part of what the Qur’an call the Taurat which was btw GIVEN to Moses. Unbelieveble.
It (Surah 5:48) does not say “corrector”; rather it says “confirming” مصدق (we have this word and related words to this in Farsi, and I know what it means) and مهیمنا (Muhaymena) guarding and protecting. It does not mean “correcting” or “criterion” or “sifting” or “quality control”, etc.
Proof???
Surah 5:48 in several translations:
PICKTHALL
And unto thee have We revealed the Scripture with the truth, confirming whatever Scripture was before it, and a watcher over it. So judge between them by that which Allah hath revealed, and follow not their desires away from the truth which hath come unto thee. For each We have appointed a divine law and a traced-out way. Had Allah willed He could have made you one community. But that He may try you by that which He hath given you (He hath made you as ye are). So vie one with another in good works. Unto Allah ye will all return, and He will then inform you of that wherein ye differ.
YUSUF ALI
To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If Allah had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to Allah; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute;
FARSI
و (این) کتاب (= قرآن) را به حق بر تو نازل کردیم در حالی که
تصدیق کننده ی کتابهای که پیش از آن است و بر آنها
شاهد و نگاهبان است،
پس به آنچه خدا نازل کرده است در میان آنها حکم کن و از هوی و هوسهای آنان به جای آنچه از حق که به تو رسیده است، پیروی نکن (و از احکام الهی روی مگردان) ما برای هر کدام از شما، آیین و طریقه روشنی قرار دادیم و اگر خدا می خواست همه ی شما را یک امت قرار می داد، ولی (خدا می خواهد) شما در آنچه به شما داده است بیازماید، پس در نیکیها بر یکدیگر پیشی گیرید، بازگشت همه ی شما به سوی خداست، آنگاه از آنچه در آن اختلاف می کردید به شماخبر می هد.
ABUL ALA MAUDUDI(WITH TAFSIR)
(5:48) Then We revealed the Book to you (O Muhammad!) with Truth, confirming whatever of the Book was revealed before, and protecting and guarding over it.
so the quran is saying the previous scriptures have been falsified in part.
No, it is saying it confirms them and guards them.
confirming and watching
confirming and guarding
the one confirming and testifying and guarding of the previous Scriptures (Farsi)
Being a criterion over them means we use the Quran to determine what is true and what is false. The previous scriptures are not the criterion over the Quran.
Pennywise is refuted again.
I asked for proof Kenny. You said that it can’t be a criterion. You are wrong. Quoting some translations doesn’t prove it. I can quote a translation as well:
Sahih International: And We have revealed to you, [O Muúammad], the Book in truth, confirming that which preceded it of the Scripture and as a CRITERION over it.
that’s a bad and biased translation on the word, muhayminan
مُهیمِناً
It clearly means “watcher”, “protector”, “guard over”, etc.
And it proves the Qur’an affirms and claims to watch over the previous Scriptures of the time of Muhammad, which the Jews and Christians had with them (between their hands).
Yes, the Quran protects the previous scriptures. But how would it do that if they were revealed long ago? The answer is that it confirms the true scripture from the falsehood of the Jews and Christians. Thus, it is a protector of the true scriptures and a criterion over the falsehood added to them. For exampl, I was just reading Surah Tawbah and came across this verse:
“Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Qur’an: and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah? then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded: that is the achievement supreme.”
So this promise was in the Torah and Gospel. The Quran confirms this and thus protects the true scriptures.
Lol yea right! It’s bad to YOU since you’re so desperate for the Holy Qur’an to confirm the non-existing authenticity of your comicbook. And then the way you throw out words like ‘It clearly means… And it proves the Qur’an affirms…’
Lol. Is that the best you got?
What a joker.
The vehemence / anger / ad hominem of you all’s attempt to rebut is evidence of my argument being correct.
If you are right, then you would remain calm and use good and beautiful arguments, as Surah 29:46 commands you to. حسن = good, beautiful,
But the sinful anger and ad hominem insults, etc. are evidence that you are all wrong.
Whenever Kenny starts to whine, you know he’s getting desperate.
Your tactic of argumentation – “you are whining” – nope; it is your method of avoiding how wrong you are and when you cannot deal with logic and reason and texts, you resort to that.
More whining. You have bee absolutely crushed in this and pretty much every other discussion. Your dishonesty, inconsistencies, double standards and fallacies have been exposed over and over again. Face it: you are a biased and unreliable source of information. So stop whining and get on with it.
Nope. Difference of opinion is not dishonesty or inconsistency, and pointing out your sinful behavior is not whining. it is speaking truth to your arrogance.
It is clear that the Qur’an confirms the previous Scriptures and claims to confirm and watch over / protect them.
and in 6:114-115 he is not saying “only that one judgment on the devil and humans in unchangeable” but all words (plural) of God cannot be changed, even those that the Judge has given both in the written book, the Qur’an, and in the previous Scriptures, “one one can change the words of God”
Your opinion is worthless and yes it is just an opinion. Facts are basked up by evidence. Stew has given evidence. You have just mindlessly repeated your opinion without evidence and the jump around when you are cornered. So stop whining. You will be put in your place as long as you continue to lie and try to pass off your worthless opinions and copy/paste garbage as “facts”.
@ Atlas
Yeah sometimes just remember you’re intent is for Allah and He has asked you to be patient with them.
https://twitter.com/freemonotheist/status/1134082991746158593
@ Ken
There is no “principle” it is your dishonest twisting of the Quran and trying to focus on ambiguity and ignoring what is clear cut either out of arrogance or ignorance.
The verse has nothing to do with Scriptures it is about decrees as the context dictates. This decree is mentioned in the QUR’AN and it is “I will fill Hell with humans and demons”. You have not been able to get around this and you will not. Nobody agrees with you and this is why God allows you to be misguided.
the decree, or judgment or decision of God is to “fill hell with humans and demons”. Surah 11:119
this judgment (one, singular) is sure, and no one can change the Words (plural) of God, so it does include the Written Scriptures. Otherwise, you don’t have any basis for trusting anything else in “God’s Word”.
Is the Qur’an “the Word of God” ?
Is the previous Scriptures the Word of God? (whether the original that was later corrupted, according to the Islamic anachronistic and no evidence understanding; or whether it means (which is surely does mean) that the Scriptures of the people of the book are “with them” (between the hands – بین یدیه, and related phrases all throughout the Qur’an)
This decree is only written in the Quran. This further refutes your silly argument. If the verse is talking about scripture, then it only applies to the Quran and not to the previous scriptures.
Here is a simple challenge, Kenny. If you can’t meet it, man-up and admit it and salvage what’s left of your dignity.
Show me just ONE verse from BOTH the Tanakh and NT that quotes God as saying “I will fill hell with men and demons”. It must say exactly this. Don’t go quoting Revelation or something.
How do you know that 6:112-115 is referring back to Surah 11:119?
Where is the word “decree” in this passage?
6:114 –
[Say], “Then is it other than Allah I should seek as judge while it is He who has revealed to you the Book explained in detail?” And those to whom We [previously] gave the Scripture know that it is sent down from your Lord in truth, so never be among the doubters.
In other words, Why should I seek someone other than Allah to make a judgment (decree), since He is the Judge حکما (we also have this word and its related words in Farsi, Judge, Sovereign governor , Ruler حاکم, decision, command ، حکومت – government, command = حکم , it is He who has revealed to you the Book explained in detail?
Interesting that the Qur’an is saying, basically, “the judgement / decision/ decree is sure, as God is the Judge, who also revealed the written Scriptures explained in detail – the place where you know you can go and resort to and read and get guidance and other judgements/decisions, if you need guidance.
And those to whom we previously gave the Scripture know that it is sent down from your Lord in truth” = the written Scriptures are from God and “sent down from your Lord in truth” = Divine Revelation, inspiration on the writings / books. (for the previous Scriptures = Law, Zobur, Prophets (OT), Gospel (NT)
“Then He will also say to those on His left [humans who are like goats as opposed to the good people/believers who are sheep who follow the Lord] , ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;
Matthew 25:41
Isaiah 66:24
All [m]mankind will come to bow down before Me,” says the Lord.
24 “Then they will go forth and look
On the corpses of the men
Who have transgressed against Me.
For their worm will not die
And their fire will not be quenched;
And they will be an abhorrence to all mankind.”
This is quoted by Jesus in Mark 9:47-48
47 If your eye causes you to stumble, throw it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than, having two eyes, to be cast into hell, 48 where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched. (quoting Isaiah 66:24)
Since the NT is progressive revelation continuing the Old Testament, it is not necessary for all details to be in the OT, since they are later revealed in the NT.
and with the NT, revelation from God is finished. (Jude 3 – “the faith delivered once for all time to the saints”)
So Qur’an is 600 years too late and just one man’s empty claim.
So Kenny the clown cannot meet the challenge, and instead of admitting it, he moves the goalpost. This guy is completely hopeless. He just does not want to listen to reason because it would be inconvenient.
You are the one who keeps insisting that 6:115 is talking about scripture. Only the Quran quotes God as saying that He will fill hell with men and jinn. Your Bible does not. Therefore, by your own standard, the verse cannot be talking about the previous scriptures. Thank you for proving that you are a dishonest man-demon. As Stew said, this verse actually applies quite appropriately to you. Unless you repent, God will fill hell with you and your ilk for your idolatry and lies.
So Faizy the clown cannot deal with the fact and truth that the Qur’an confirms and claims to watch over the previous Scriptures and that no one can change the words of God, because there are so many copies that confirm what the Written word was.
Kenny the clown cannot refute me, so he falls back on his original argument which he has failed to prove. The poor clown is stuck in a time loop! 🤣🤣
Faizy the clown just keeps repeating his same failed mantras.
Kenny the clown desperately tries to keep himself relevant. 😂
I have no fear of punishment in hell, because of the promises of the Word of God, the Scriptures (the ones before the man made subjective claim of Muhammad.
15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. 16 We have come to know and have believed the love which God has for us. God is love, and the one who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him. 17 By this, love is perfected with us, so that we may have confidence in the day of judgment; because as He is, so also are we in this world. 18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love. 19 We love, because He first loved us.
1 John 4:15-19 (written sometime between 80-90 AD, long before your 600 year late book was written by humans)
1 John 2:25
This is the promise which He Himself made to us: eternal life.
True believers in Christ have no fear of death or punishment in hell, because of His grace of His atonement, resurrection, salvation, and sealing with the Holy Spirit of promise.
Blah, blah, blah. Your Bible’s fake promises are just as worthless as your opinions.
You have failed to prove your argument vis a vis Surah 6:115, and a you have done is jump around aimlessly like a frog on drugs.
blah, blah, blah, your Qur’an is 600 years too late and full of contradictions and anachronistic claims. Just a subjective one man’s claim who got too many heat strokes in the desert and had wild encounters, and even thought he was being possessed by a demon and foamed at the mouth and almost threw himself over the cliff and felt the demon squeezing him.
Kenny the clown keeps repeating his old and disproven mantras. 😆
Kenny puts his faith in the vague ramblings of idolaters and Canaanite pagans who worshiped an old man in the sky.
Yes, in context 6:115 is talking about written Scriptures, because the context is verse 114, which mentions the written revelation of the Qur’an and the written revelations of the previous Scriptures and the plural “words” of God in 6:115 expands it to beyond that one judgment / decree.
Jumping around again, just like an amphibian high on drugs!
Stew already showed that the context is about God’s decrees. Your pathetic tafsir is ridiculous and unproven. All you do is make circular arguments, nothing more.
And then you failed to support your own position when given the chance. You failed to provide even ONE verse from your Bible that matches God’s decree in the Quran.
and yet he expanded it to words (plural), and so the principle includes the written words of God.
Except that it doesn’t in that context, Pennywise. 🤡
So, who do you know the Qur’an’s words are true, if the principle “there is no changing of the words of God” does not also include written Scripture?
Because God promised to protect the Quran:
We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption). (15:9)
Surah 15:9:
“Verily, we have sent down the Reminder الذکر (Al-Zekr) , and, verily, WE will guard it.”
إِنَّا نَحْنُ نَزَّلْنَا الذِّكْرَ وَإِنَّا لَهُ لَحَافِظُونَ – 15:9
The verse states clearly that God is promising to protect the scripture (the Reminder).
It also demonstrates that the text of the Holy Bible is not corrupt, nor can it be, by the Qur’an’s own admission.
If anyone argues that the word “Reminder (Zikr – Arabic)” is only talking about the Qur’an, the following verses refute that argument, since it also refers to the Torah as “Reminder”:
“And already have we written in the Psalms after the reminder that the earth shall my righteous servants inherit.” Surah 21:105
And We have already written in the book [of Psalms] after the Reminder (Al Zekr / الذکر that the land [of Paradise] is inherited by My righteous servants.
These other passages also identify the scriptures in the possession of the Jews and Christians as the Reminder:
Surah 16:43
وَمَا أَرْسَلْنَا مِن قَبْلِكَ إِلَّا رِجَالًا نُّوحِي إِلَيْهِمْ ۚ فَاسْأَلُوا أَهْلَ الذِّكْرِ إِن كُنتُمْ لَا تَعْلَمُونَ – 16:43
SAHIH INTERNATIONAL
And We sent not before you except men to whom We revealed [Our message]. So ask the people of the message (Al-Zekr = the Reminder) if you do not know.
Surah 21:7
And We sent not before you (O Muhammad SAW) but men to whom We inspired, so ask the people of the Reminder [Scriptures – the Taurat (Torah), the Injeel (Gospel)] if you do not know.
Surah 21:48
And We had already given Moses and Aaron the criterion (Al-Furqan – الفرقان )and a light and a reminder ذکرا for the righteous
Surah 40:53-54.
And, indeed We gave Musa (Moses) the guidance, and We caused the Children of Israel to inherit the Scripture [i.e. the Taurat (Torah)],
A guide and a reminder ذکری for men of understanding.
So, the previous Scriptures are also promised the be protected.
“there is no changing the words of God” – the principle stands.
My goodness, the level of stupidity and dishonesty in Pennywise is amazing! Let me guess. You went ahead and copied this drivel from Shamoun, right?😂
It shows that you are incapable of honest research. The context of Surah 15:9 is ONLY the Quran! If you weren’t such a clown, you would have seen that. Read it from the beginning!
The context of Surah 15:9 is ONLY the Quran!
Yes, but the other passages also shows the previous Scriptures (Torah and Zobur (Psalms of David) are also called Al-Zekr الذکر – the Reminder.
Irrelevant Pennywise! The context of the promise in verse 15:9 is with regard to the Quran only! Here’s another challenge for you. Show one verse from the Quran where a promise is given in context to protect the Torah or Injeel from corruption.
You’re already failed one challenge. Go on. Run back to your bff Shamoun.
Surah 5:46-48 gives that promise.
Also:
And We sent not before you (O Muhammad SAW) but men to whom We inspired, so ask the people of the Reminder [Scriptures – the Taurat (Torah), the Injeel (Gospel)] if you do not know.
Surah 21:7
same as 10:94 – says “go ask the people of the Reminder, the Scriptures, the ones who were reading the book before you.
Lol, where is the promise you simpleton? Pennywise fails another challenge. This is getting sad.
the confirmer and guard over the previous Scriptures
Lying again? Is it that hard to admit you’re wrong? There is no promise to protect the previous scriptures, stupid. Get over it. The only promise was regarding the Quran, a promise which has been fulfilled and which proves the Quran is from God. So even IF the previous scriptures were not corrupted, which they are, it wouldn’t matter. You would still need to follow the Quran because it is the last and final Criterion. So I guess you’ll be converting to Islam, right Pennywise?
No; it clearly says, “confirmer and protector / guard / watch” and I gave you several translations that confirm that. Surah 5:48
It’s the Criterion you stupid clown frog. It protects the previous scriptures from the corruption that you heretics have inserted into them. And more importantly, it now abrogates and replaces the previous scriptures. So will you be converting to Islam now?
No; it clearly says, “confirmer and protector / guard / watch” and I gave you several translations that confirm that. Surah 5:48
Uh huh, sure, sure. Just because you believe you made a substantive and intelligentargument, doesn’t mean you did. People believe in Bigfoot too…it doesn’t mean it exists. You have never made an intelligent argument in recent memory Pennywise.
Hadith of Bukhari, 9.111:
Narrated ‘Aisha:
The commencement of the Divine Inspiration to Allah’s Apostle was in the form of good righteous (true) dreams in his sleep. He never had a dream but that it came true like bright day light. He used to go in seclusion (the cave of) Hira where he used to worship(Allah Alone) continuously for many (days) nights. He used to take with him the journey food for that (stay) and then come back to (his wife) Khadija to take his food like-wise again for another period to stay, till suddenly the Truth descended upon him while he was in the cave of Hira. The angel came to him in it and asked him to read. The Prophet replied, “I do not know how to read.” (The Prophet added), “The angel caught me (forcefully) and pressed me so hard that I could not bear it anymore. He then released me and again asked me to read, and I replied, “I do not know how to read,” whereupon he caught me again and pressed me a second time till I could not bear it anymore. He then released me and asked me again to read, but again I replied, “I do not know how to read (or, what shall I read?).” Thereupon he caught me for the third time and pressed me and then released me and said, “Read: In the Name of your Lord, Who has created (all that exists). Has created man from a clot. Read and Your Lord is Most Generous…up to….. ..that which he knew not.” (96.15)
Then Allah’s Apostle returned with the Inspiration, his neck muscles twitching with terror till he entered upon Khadija and said, “Cover me! Cover me!” They covered him till his fear was over and then he said, “O Khadija, what is wrong with me?” Then he told her everything that had happened and said, ‘I fear that something may happen to me.” Khadija said, ‘Never! But have the glad tidings, for by Allah, Allah will never disgrace you as you keep good relations with your Kith and kin, speak the truth, help the poor and the destitute, serve your guest generously and assist the deserving, calamity-afflicted ones.”
… But after a few days Waraqa died and the Divine Inspiration was also paused for a while and the Prophet became so sad as we have heard that he intended several times to throw himself from the tops of high mountains and every time he went up the top of a mountain in order to throw himself down, Gabriel would appear before him and say, “O Muhammad! You are indeed Allah’s Apostle in truth” whereupon his heart would become quiet and he would calm down and would return home. And whenever the period of the coming of the inspiration used to become long, he would do as before, but when he used to reach the top of a mountain, Gabriel would appear before him and say to him what he had said before. (Ibn ‘Abbas said regarding the meaning of: ‘He it is that Cleaves the daybreak (from the darkness)’ (6.96) that Al-Asbah means the light of the sun during the day and the light of the moon at night).
Pennywise is jumping around again!
How does any of this change the fact that your pathetic opinions have been disproven and that you have a worship an old man in the sky?
John 4:23-24
John 1:18
Point proven! Pennywise can’t sit still in one place.
@ Ken
I have shown 2 other spots where the plural “words” is used for the decrees:
66:12. As well as Mary, the daughter of Amram who guarded her virtue, so I breathed My Spirit into her. She believed in her Lord’s Words, His Scriptures and was among the devout…
Notice “she believed in His words AND His Scriptures” indicating they are separate from one another. This verse is enough to refute you but:
6:34. There were Messengers who were rejected before you. But they remained patient when they were rejected and persecuted, until My help came to them. None can change God’s words and you’ve already received news about what happened with these Messengers.
None can change God’s words again AND as a bonus, it’s in the SAME Surah you and I are discussing. The context of this is obviously the decree (which is again mentioned in the Qur’an)
So I’m sorry you were going on about something about plural usage or whatever?
Pennywise gets burned!
66:12. As well as Mary, the daughter of Amram who guarded her virtue, so I breathed My Spirit into her. She believed in her Lord’s Words, His Scriptures and was among the devout…
Notice “she believed in His words AND His Scriptures” indicating they are separate from one another.
Actually, that is even stronger for my case – since His words are written down in Scripture; and the verse is saying that faith in the verbal promise of God is also faith in the written words of God.
Yes, in context 6:115 is talking about written Scriptures, because the context is verse 114, which mentions the written revelation of the Qur’an and the written revelations of the previous Scriptures and the plural “words” of God in 6:115 expands it to beyond that one judgment / decree.
He has sent down upon you, [O Muhammad], the Book [written Scripture] in truth, confirming what was before it. And He revealed the Torah and the Gospel.
نَزَّلَ عَلَيْكَ الْكِتَابَ بِالْحَقِّ مُصَدِّقًا لِّمَا بَيْنَ يَدَيْهِ وَأَنزَلَ التَّوْرَاةَ وَالْإِنجِيلَ
Surah 3:3
The Qur’an here and other places shows the basic principle that when he says in 6:114-115, “there is no changing the words of God”, that he is including both the decrees (judgments, decisions, rulings on unbelievers and jinn and devils (as in the context of 6:112-113) AND also the written Scriptures of God, because they only we know about those decrees (the ones we know of) – they were written down so that we can know them today.
Quoting Surah 5:47-48 and 5:68 DOES help me – it proves the Qur’an affirms and claims to protect / guard the previous Scriptures “between the hands” = the Scriptures the Jews and Christians had in their possession at the time.
There is no way for you to escape the principle.
He’s jumping around again! Man, you really must be stuck in a time loop!
@ Ken
There is no “principle” you are trying to twist the Qur’an which is why you keep trying to jump around instead of going down the line one at a time. ALL of these verses you quoted don’t help you but you are too arrogant to admit 6:115 doesn’t mean anything about the Scriptures so we can move on to the next one.
Surah 15:9:
“Verily, we have sent down the Reminder الذکر (Al-Zekr) , and, verily, WE will guard it.”
إِنَّا نَحْنُ نَزَّلْنَا الذِّكْرَ وَإِنَّا لَهُ لَحَافِظُونَ – 15:9
The verse states clearly that God is promising to protect the scripture (the Reminder).
It also demonstrates that the text of the Holy Bible is not corrupt, nor can it be, by the Qur’an’s own admission.
If anyone argues that the word “Reminder (Zikr – Arabic)” is only talking about the Qur’an, the following verses refute that argument, since it also refers to the Torah as “Reminder”:
“And already have we written in the Psalms after the reminder that the earth shall my righteous servants inherit.” Surah 21:105
And We have already written in the book [of Psalms] after the Reminder (Al Zekr / الذکر that the land [of Paradise] is inherited by My righteous servants.
These other passages also identify the scriptures in the possession of the Jews and Christians as the Reminder:
Surah 16:43
وَمَا أَرْسَلْنَا مِن قَبْلِكَ إِلَّا رِجَالًا نُّوحِي إِلَيْهِمْ ۚ فَاسْأَلُوا أَهْلَ الذِّكْرِ إِن كُنتُمْ لَا تَعْلَمُونَ – 16:43
SAHIH INTERNATIONAL
And We sent not before you except men to whom We revealed [Our message]. So ask the people of the message (Al-Zekr = the Reminder) if you do not know.
Surah 21:7
And We sent not before you (O Muhammad SAW) but men to whom We inspired, so ask the people of the Reminder [Scriptures – the Taurat (Torah), the Injeel (Gospel)] if you do not know.
Surah 21:48
And We had already given Moses and Aaron the criterion (Al-Furqan – الفرقان )and a light and a reminder ذکرا for the righteous
Surah 40:53-54.
And, indeed We gave Musa (Moses) the guidance, and We caused the Children of Israel to inherit the Scripture [i.e. the Taurat (Torah)],
A guide and a reminder ذکری for men of understanding.
So, the previous Scriptures are also promised the be protected.
“there is no changing the words of God” – the principle stands.
No, the mention of written scripture and the previous Scriptures in verse 114 proves I am the one who stays in context; along with the plural in verse 115. 114 and 115 are one after the other; so I stayed in context.
No, it proves that you are a clown who has to jump around like a high amphibian to avoid admitting that you are wrong.
And Surah 21:48 also calls the previous Scriptures of Torah – Al Furqan / The Criterion الفرقان
وَلَقَدْ آتَيْنَا مُوسَىٰ وَهَارُونَ الْفُرْقَانَ وَضِيَاءً وَذِكْرًا لِّلْمُتَّقِينَ – 21:48
PICKTHALL
And We verily gave Moses and Aaron the Criterion (of right and wrong) and a light and a Reminder for those who keep from evil,
SAHIH INTERNATIONAL
And We had already given Moses and Aaron the criterion and a light and a reminder for the righteous
@ Ken
Seriously? Wa is a conjugation of two separate things. If I said I like motorcycles AND vanilla ice cream would you say they are the same thing? A normal person would say no. There is nothing in the verse to indicate what you are claiming. The Words(decrees) and Scriptures are separate things in the verse end of story I’m not playing this game with you. You are wrong Ken drop it.
It can mean 2 separate things or two similar things, or for emphasis (as below), repeating the same thing, or also, “and, even” – as in “words, and even the Scriptures”
From online Arabic dictionary –
used between two words that are the same to make their meaning stronger
وَ (للمُماثَلة)
We laughed and laughed.
Irrelevant again, because the Quran is the Criterion over the previous scriptures. Pennywise is refuted again!
But it confirmed them and claims to have protected them. (5:46-48)
You are refuted again!
Pennywise the jumping clown frog jumps again! As with 6:115, you did the same thing with 15:9. You got refuted about the context, and to weasel yourself out of another hole, you jumped to another verse. You are pathetic, dude! No wonder you’re a manworshipping pagan. Logic and reason mean nothing to you!
Totally relevant.
Only if you’re a jumping clown frog named Kenny Pennywise. 🤣
Or Pennywise Kenny. Even better!
@ QB
Basically. He wants to ignore all context and evidence; and just takele his word despite there being no evidence except from the deep recess of his mind and butt.
Contextually that makes no sense your entire argument is essentially let’s ignore:
1. Context of the passage/chapter
2. No scholarship agrees
3. The passage is used in other places for the decree
4. Other places in the Quran elaborate more on the passage which states its a decree
5. The chapter was not sent down about the Scriptures
And go with my bias, no evidence having opinion, that ignores what is clear for ambiguity as I continue to just make more and more stuff up with no evidence other than “I feel” this is what it means. I’m going to help you out Ken, this is not the Bible, NOBODY CARES about you or my opinion and one cannot make things up out of thin air. Muslims care about E.V.I.D.E.N.C.E. What evidence can you present from the context of the chapter ONLY that confirms your wrong/bias opinion?
Surah 21:7
And We sent not before you (O Muhammad SAW) but men to whom We inspired, so ask the people of the Reminder [Scriptures – the Taurat (Torah), the Injeel (Gospel)] if you do not know.
“ask the people of the Reminder / the Scriptures (before you)”
same as 10:94
go and ask the people who reading the Scriptures before you
@ Ken
Not the meaning of the ayat and (see how their seperate topics?) Not what I asked. You are comming in with a predetermined belief and trying to deseperatly pick for something bto support it. Where in Surah Anam (Chapter 6) is evidence for your claim?
You are comming in with a predetermined belief and trying to deseperatly pick for something bto support it.
That is pretty rich! coming from some one who follows a religion that is entirely based on a 600 year later and too late pre-determined idea, and then tries desperately to force it into the events of the previous revelations.
That’s pretty rich, coming from someone whose religion can a thousand years too late and tried to change everything taught in Judaism. Not to mention that your religion is just repackaged paganism and your Bible a hodge-podge of random stories written by anonymous people who copied from pagan mythology.
Actually the NT totally affirms and fulfills all the OT. It honors the seriousness of the temple and the sacrificial system with Jesus being the ultimate and final sacrificial lamb for sins; yet your book is the one that almost completely ignores the sacrificial system in the OT. (Yet affirms it in an ironic way in Surah 37:107. “We have ransomed him with a mighty sacrifice.”
Except your book says there is continuity from OT to John the Baptist. See the quotes and connections from the book of Malachi to John the Baptist in Matthew, Mark, Luke. Luke 1:17 – quotes from Malachi that he came in the spirit and power of Elijah. There is only 430 years between Chronicles, (not 1,000) the last book written in OT to John the Baptizer and Jesus. All the NT books are quoting the OT. You totally choked on that. Jesus Himself and the rest of the NT said He is the fulfillment of all the OT.
Actually the NT contradicts the Tanakh with its manworshipping paganism. Of course, the Tanakh is also guilty of borrowing from pagan mythology as well in some places but it doesn’t explicit try to excuse it.
Nope.
Yep. 🤡 🐸
in context in 6:114-115
6:115 is talking about written Scriptures , because the context is verse 114, which mentions the written revelation of the Qur’an and the written revelations of the previous Scriptures and the plural “words” of God in 6:115 expands it to beyond that one judgment / decree.
Blah, blah, blah. Pennywise is really stuck in a time loop!
@ Ken
It’s not rich you came in with an predetermined belief and tried to pick for something to support it like you all did with the Trinity. Christians generally suck at interpretation and I’ve noticed none of you have rules its just this is what I feel. Going with your bs why would God mention this to Muslims in Surah 6 and how doea this fit with the theme of the chapter?
Also ps QB is right you are in NO position to talk about things coming later.
But he did mention it there in 6:114-115 – why would he mention “written scripture” الکتاب and the previous Scriptures?
[Say], “Then is it other than Allah I should seek as judge while it is He who has revealed to you the Book explained in detail?” And those to whom We [previously] gave the Scripture know that it is sent down from your Lord in truth, so never be among the doubters.
he even says it is explained in detail
“words” plural in 6:115 includes the book in the previous verse with details explains AND the previous Scriptures –
@ Ken
I answered this already. The verse was revealed because the people of the Scripture asked for an arbitrator insinserely. They are among the people inspiring propaganda and are part of the decree of going to Hell.
He said God is the Judge حاکم ، حکما and that same Judge gave the written Scriptures, including the previous Scriptures.
I think we have exhausted this issue.
The clown frog jumps again. After all this time, he has yet to stay in one place and discuss each ayat. The self-delusion and deception is strong in this one.