The Trinity & the Bible? Eastern Orthodox / Islamic Exchange – Jay Dyer / Paul Williams. TODAY

Screenshot 2019-05-05 at 12.53.12

Dyer is a committed Orthodox Christian. His description from his youtube account reads….

Jay Dyer is an author, lecturer, and television presenter known for his popular philosophy and film-focused site,, as well as writing Esoteric Hollywood: Sex Cults and Symbols in Film, and co-creating, co-writing and co-presenting the television series Hollywood Decoded with Jay Weidner on the Gaia network. Jay’s graduate work focused in analytical philosophy and the interplay of espionage, geopolitics and propaganda, while in the last few years Jay has been a guest on countless nationally-syndicated radio shows, television and comedy shows, academic conferences and large podcasts. JaysAnalysis contains over original 1,000 articles and hundreds of audio interviews, reaching now 1/2 million readers and listeners per month. Jay’s traditionally-published book reached number 1 on Amazon’s Film & Hollywood category and will soon be followed by a sequel, Esoteric Hollywood 2: More Sex, Cults and Symbols in Film.

Categories: Christianity, Islam

26 replies

  1. On reflection it’s clear Jay won that debate yesterday. I need to study/learn a lot about Christianity, the Bible, etc more before I can engage with him again. Thanks for the encounter Jay.

    • I adore your humbleness but I watch the debate for the second time, it’s not clear to me that Jay won the debate, perhaps later you can share with us in which area that you think Jay scored points..

    • Ok, I found the video on You Tube.

      An amazing confession on your part, Paul! Wow!
      I am 1 hour and 30 minutes into the debate and about 99 % of what Jay Dyer says is exactly the way I argue with you and your arguments. (even though he is Eastern Orthodox, an Evangelical Protestant who knows early church history says the same things.) (except for the text of Scripture coming out from liturgy.) The text of Scripture gave birth to liturgy.

    • It seems to me you are being sarcastic. (about needig to study / learn a lot about Christianity, the Bible, etc. )

      Around 2:08:00 mark, Jay Dyer missed an opportunity. Paul W. said “logos = Greek term for thought, reason” and said it has nothing to do with the Qur’an.

      Actually, Logos, λογος = reason and thought that expresses itself in words or “Word”. and the Qur’an calls Jesus “the Word” several times. the Arabic term is Kalameh. کلمه (Surah 3:45; 4:171)

      کلمه الله

      Kalemeh Allah

      The Word of God

      ( It did not seem that Jay Dyer knew that the Qur’an calls Jesus “the Word”)

      • Jay Dyer did not know Al Masih المسیح means “the Messiah”

        Also, Jonah 1:17 is a better example of rising from the dead on the 3rd day than Hosea 6:1-3.

        Jesus confirmed that in Matthew 12:39-41

        and in Jonah 2, he says he was in Sheol (the place of the dead) – or he is saying that he should have died, but the whale or great fish vomiting Jonah up is a sign / symbol of the resurrection. The people of Nineveh would see him as a picture of someone who “came back from the dead”.

        The word “Messiah” IS there in Hebrew מָשִׁיחַ, (Meshiakh) TWICE, in Daniel 9:24-27 and the Messiah being “cut off” in Daniel 9:26 is a similar concept in Isaiah 53:8 – the suffering servant will be cut off from the land of the living.

        Jay at the 2:14:00 mark made a great point that I also have made many times – the Jews don’t require the word “Messiah” in any of the passages that they think today is about the Messianic age and coming of the Messiah.

  2. Dear Mr Williams

    I watched the debate and while I am in awe of Mr Dyer, my brother in faith, I believe that you conducted yourself with great dignity. Oh Lord Jesus Christ Son of God, for the sake of the of the prayers of thy most pure mother, our holy and God bearing fathers and and all the saints have mercy on us amen. Alleluia alleluia alleluia glory to thee our God !!!
    God love you

  3. Salaam br paul, i wanted to just say you did a great job debating that person. You had him against the wall in a drunken state towards the end. The title of the video also bothers me, anyway your message was clear and he was childish condescending and disrespectful. Your videos are appreciated and if i go to the UK it would be to hug you

  4. Thank you for your kind words Sabit.

  5. This is going to sound abrupt but believe me it’s meant with the utmost respect for you both. Scripture is about identifiable truths that are absolute so there is no debate, one or the other is correct and one is not. That’s something can be lost in reverence for the other because flat contradiction it rude. Ironically, people who are anchored in a Judeo-Christian belief tend to be very polite so without a rude atheist in the conversation it’s not a debate, it’s a polite discussion between people of differing faith.

    I’m a non-denominational Christian, previously agnostic and raised Catholic. That didn’t work for me but I don’t dismiss anyones conduit to Christ, I choose to just read a Bible and attend home groups with no structure. That works for me.

    On the question of the trinity it’s not so much that the NT offers up anything conclusive, you’re two thirds of the way there already. You could even take the position that all three are mentioned in Genesis 3, a chapter that when read slowly actually contains the entire Bible in some shape or form and many of the problems we are facing right now.

    I will give you what I see as confirmation of all at the first identifiable points. Genesis and Gospel of John

    Genesis 3

    First we have the serpent come upon Eve who actually never heard God say don’t eat of the tree and without hesitation he goes to work with a question that’s almost always misremembered. Why? It’s intentionally confusing in its structure and this is why it’s been said that he hypnotises them.

    Serpent – Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

    He doesn’t ask about the tree, he asks about every tree in the garden. That crafty/subtil snake!

    Eve – We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden. But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

    She answers but adds “Ye shall not touch it” thus allowing the serpent to not even lie in his deception. The Bible starts and ends with a lesson in the OT and a warning in the NT. DON’T CHANGE THESE WORDS. One small point is that she uses a lesser term in the Hebrew to describe the death they will receive. God says, “You will/must die” and eve weakens it to “Lest/incase we die”.

    Serpent – Ye shall not surely die

    The answer only raises the doubt that he herself raised when either Adam instructed her with his own input or she added it herself. Either way, it’s fatal.

    Eve – For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

    Again, this isn’t a lie. Adam and Even will know good and evil just like God. She hears that she will be a Goddess though and the gendered sin of vanity (opposed to the lust of man) is shown as her true weakness.

    Narration – And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

    Important to not here that while most blame Eve, the fail is Adams because he is there while this transpires. “also unto her husband with her”. He was also charged with tending to the garden. Men are told to lead, women complete man and are useless with them with their warmth but we are different, fact. Leadership isn’t management, it’s example and since men are not emotional and capable of warmth like the woman ( a womans touch anyone?) we have simple programming so decisions are easier. Different but equal in value!

    From here God arrives and they hide, distance is already there which is what sin brings. God addresses them with a question that is similar to how he addresses Satan in Job (“whence comest thou?”) which demonstrates to us that while Satan is a malevolent threat to mankind, he is addresses like a child by God just like we are. When a kid messes up you ask what they have done even though you know.

    Adam blames the woman and then God for giving her to him, Eve fesses up that she was tricked and blames the serpent so the buck goes along the line. Here we have a number of addresses….

    God to serpent – “Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life”

    God to satan – And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

    I will stop at that here and point out the first mention of Christ. The bruising of the head is Christs return, biting of the heal is the crucifixion. This is reflected in the wilderness when Moses raises up the brass crucifix with a snake upon it that the Children of Israel must go before in order to be saved from the death of snakebite. Christ makes a reference to this also in John.

    Numbers 21:9

    So Moses made a bronze snake and put it up on a pole. Then when anyone was bitten by a snake and looked at the bronze snake, they lived.

    John 3:16

    And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up

    Right there you have God in the garden and then what’s known as the protevangelium (Gods story of salvation through Christ from beginning to end even before they have left the Garden) so two parts of the trinity are complete.

    There is also one more mention of Christ before they leave…

    Naration – Unto Adam also and to his wife did the Lord God make coats of skins, and clothed them.

    Adam and Even have made aprons of leaves which is an earthly covering and God kills an animal and places it upon them so we have the substitutionary atonement of Christ shown for what is basically the entire Old testement in multiple ways. The burnt offerings show them the wages of sin and they are given every type of leader possible in the OT from strong to weak, judge to king and even supersmart Solomon. None of it works, they need a substitution for their sin. A perfect lamb. Cane makes the very same mistake when he brings fruit and Abel brings the best of his flock. The repetition is the confirmation although I contend that this truth of the perfect sacrifice by a perfect man is the entire bible. Remove that and you have some very random sounding stories in the OT (heads for the Zohar)

    Naration – And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil.

    God addresses someone with him. It’s more than just Him and whoever that may be is as Him. Holy Spirit? It’s not conclusive I agree but make a few steps forward and you have a confirmation.

    Noah sends out a dove and a raven. The raven goes “to and fro” (important) but is able to settle on dead dry ground because it was that type of bird. The dove returns because its unable to settle.

    Genesis 8:7

    And he sent forth a raven, which went forth to and fro, until the waters were dried up from off the earth. Also he sent forth a dove from him, to see if the waters were abated from off the face of the ground; But the dove found no rest for the sole of her foot, and she returned unto him into the ark, for the waters were on the face of the whole earth: then he put forth his hand, and took her, and pulled her in unto him into the ark. And the dove came in to him in the evening; and, lo, in her mouth was an olive leaf pluckt off: so Noah knew that the waters were abated from off the earth.

    The dove could only settle where there was life. The raven found rest in what is dead.

    John is told that he will know the saviour because the Holy Spirit will descend and dwell with him.

    John 1:33

    And I myself did not know him, but the one who sent me to baptize with water told me, ‘The man on whom you see the Spirit come down and remain is the one who will baptize with the Holy Spirit.’

    John recognises the spirit descending as a dove and REMAIN and then ABODE.

    John 1:29

    And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.

    The dove is the foreshadowing of The Holy Spirit who can only settle on that which is life. Because Christ was the perfect man the spirit could settle but since no substitutionary atonement was made all other ground (men) were dead spiritually. The dove could find no rest.

    It’s possible to go to scripture that talks of the “helper” but the perfect manner in which the above comes together in the books books of the Bible that were written over a huge span of time by men who didn’t know each other and those 66 books weren’t actually intended to go together…..I say you can be sure already of Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

    Lastly, the story of Christ is almost every book in the OT. Joseph has 12 brothers, thought dead, returns to his father. Jonah is asleep on a boat, calms a storm by asking to be thrown off, dies for three days and is resurected when a fish scoops him up and spits him out etc ect.

    Just my Sunday tuppence.

    Peace to you both.

    • Jonah did not die for 3 days sir. You are gravely misinformed and misinforming others.

      • Hi Sabit. Thanks for reading that ramble. It’s a disputed point on the days but I say he will have died. Christ makes reference to the three day part but I get that it’s disputed.

        I take that position because the weight of the rest of the book is that he is a Christ figure. Also, the subversive effects of music and TV portraying him on a raft inside the fish has like a great hall has clouded over what is obvious. If weeds are wrapped about your head and then your in a fishes mouth for three days under water, you’re dead.

      • One other small bit that I overlooked, Jonah offers himself to be thrown over the sailors do reluctantly. They battle the waves insisiting that he is an “innocent man” and they do not want his blood to save them…

        Jonah 1:13-16

        And he said unto them, Take me up, and cast me forth into the sea; so shall the sea be calm unto you: for I know that for my sake this great tempest is upon you.

        Nevertheless the men rowed hard to bring it to the land; but they could not: for the sea wrought, and was tempestuous against them.

        Wherefore they cried unto the Lord, and said, We beseech thee, O Lord, we beseech thee, let us not perish for this man’s life, and lay not upon us innocent blood: for thou, O Lord, hast done as it pleased thee.

        So they took up Jonah, and cast him forth into the sea: and the sea ceased from her raging.

        Then the men feared the Lord exceedingly, and offered a sacrifice unto the Lord, and made vows.

        So he insists on being thrown overboard to die, they then repent of it and take vows to God. It’s a very clear and complete foreshadow of Christ.

      • He did not die at all.

      • Ok, but inside that position you’re without doubt also stating the following:

        Jonah survives underwater/inside a fishes mouth (not alive on a raft, Disney and Porgy & Bess* made that bit up) without breathing equipment.
        * “he made his home in a fishes abdomen”, It Aint Necessarily so – Porgy & Bess

        Christ made the same presumption incorrectly.
        Matthew 12:40
        For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

        The many other parallels and suggestions that Jonah is another Christ figure are just coincidental.

        This isn’t the result of subversive infantilisation of the storyline over the last 200 years or so from literature to music to remove the prophetic nature of Jonah which when considered is a strong validation of Christs divinity.*
        *my view is that the perversion of this OT book is possibly the most destructive of all.

        When Jonah spoke of “Sheol” (the grave) and “depths of the grave”, this is all inner monologue that he is having with himself while surviving without breathing equipment either with weeds wrapped about him at the bottom of the sea or in a fishes alimentary canal.

        You take a leap over that wall of five points when you take the view that he was alive. As far as supporting verses go for him being alive, I see very few if any but I’m open to being corrected on that. I’m sure you would agree that the weight of scripture and of course natural logic is that he is dead and the literature and movie driven view is that he is like Geppetto, Pinochios father.

        Jonah is a book that when read without perversions driven in through the ages delivers the clearest foreshadowing of Christ since Joseph and tragically doesn’t get the attention it should. But that’s why we have been subversively influenced into believing he was alive on a raft inside the great hall of fishes ribs.

  6. One of my responses is the serpent, not eve.

  7. Why no link to the video debate?

    • Not only that, a picture… if to taunt us.

      • @ thechristiansshepard

        You see the problem with the Trinity is it just is not supported by the Bible. All that’s done is ambiguous verses are used to support the false doctrine in spite of clear cut verses that say other wise and this is very easy to prove.

        After reading I would argue that no “gospel according to…” writers thought Jesus(as) was equal to God he was a pre-existant divine being that was subservient to God like the Holy Spirit (ESPECIALLY the authors of John’s beliefs). The three just plain aren’t equal and a clear hierarchy is established priving its polytheistic naturw despite all the philosophical gymnastics to avoid it.

  8. The video of the debate on You Tube. Soon after the 1:30:00 mark, Jay Dyer begins to get really passionate.
    I have not finished listening yet; as of this posting I am only at the 1:44:00 mark. Had other things to do, life, Sunday church, interruptions, etc.

    Seeking to listen to the rest of it.

  9. Jay did not know that Isaiah 11:1 and other passages about being despised and rejected and a branch, shoot, root, etc. are the OT fulfillments of Matthew 2:23. He said that was about “oral traditions” rather than all the following:

    First, notice it says, “through the prophets” – plural. So he is speaking of a general concept that is in more than one prophet. “that what was spoken through the prophets, He shall be called a Nazarene” (Matthew 2:23) “Nararene” – a Nazer – נצר – nzr – a rejected branch. Nazareth was a rejected city in the North, in “Galilee of the Gentiles”; it was rejected by the Jews in the south and around Jerusalem, since it was a Galilean town. (northern, Gentile, defiled by non-Jews). “Can anything good come out of Nazareth?” (John 1:46; see also John 7:41 and 7:52)

    So, “Nazareth” describes Jesus being rejected by the Jews. Isaiah 14:19 – “like a rejected branch” = כְּנֵצֶר נִתְעָב כ = like נצר = NZR, Nazer, branch נתעב = rejected, despised Isaiah 11:1 – “then a shoot will spring from the stem of Jesse (father of David); and a branch (Nazer – נצר ) from his roots will bear fruit.” (see rest of Isaiah 11:1-10 – a very Messianic passage in the Jews minds. This is referred to in Acts 13:22-23; and Isaiah 11:10 is quoted in Romans 15:12)

    Isaiah 53:1-3 – concept of rejection, tender shoot, root out of dry ground

    Who has believed our message? And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed? 2 For He grew up before Him like a tender shoot, And like a root out of parched ground; He has no stately form or majesty That we should look upon Him, Nor appearance that we should be attracted to Him. 3 He was despised and forsaken of men, A man of sorrows and acquainted with grief; And like one from whom men hide their face He was despised, and we did not esteem Him. Isaiah 53:1-3

    There is another word for the Messiah as a “branch” צמח used often, combined with the concepts of shoot, root, sprout, and despised, shows that Matthew had many passages in mind when he wrote, “as it is spoken through the prophets, He shall be called a Nazarene” – despised, rejected. Jeremiah 23:5 – Messiah will be a righteous branch. (צמח) Jeremiah 33:15 – a righteous branch (צמח )of David will spring forth Isaiah 4:2 – “branch of the Lord” (צמח) Zechariah 3:8 – “they are a symbol, for behold, I am going to bring in My servant the branch.” (צמח) Zechariah 6:12 – the one whose name is “Branch” (צמח) There are several words for “branch”(צמח is used more often) with root and shoot (Isaiah 53:1-3; 11:1) and “Nezer” (נצר) is not always used in every passage. But the concept of a branch, with the concepts of “shoot” and “root” and “rejected”; and the concept of being rejected combines all these passages as demonstrating what Matthew 2:23 was referring to.

  10. Paul Williams: You accuse Christians of having abandoned the Torah because (gasp!) they eat pork. Yet Muslims also ignore every other dietary restriction in the Torah (except for the one about pork).

    • @ billyhw

      1. We have similar dietary restrictions of the Jews other than pork. In fact, Muslims will eat kosher or food blessed by Christians if no Halal food is available.

      2. The Torah is NOT binding upon us. Jesus(as) makes it upon you. Especially since you’re arguing to be a “continuation” of Judaism

      3. We believe the Jews added to the Torah and made things forbidden for themselves.

    • Christians have abandoned every aspect of the Torah, not just (gasp!) the prohibition against eating pork.

  11. Where did Ken go?
    Perhaps he is finaly seeing Xtianity is false and is on the verge of convergence.

    • Been very busy with work and life and no time for debate here lately. Just checked today and saw your comment.

      No, Christianity and the Bible are still true (John 17:17, Jude 3, 2 Timothy 3:15-17; John 14:6; John 8:24) and the Qur’an actually affirms the previous Scriptures. (Surah 10:94; 5:47; 5:68)

      • ((((and the Qur’an actually affirms the previous Scriptures. (Surah 10:94; 5:47; 5:68)))))))
        BUHAHAHAHHAAHAHA here we go again!!!!

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