“Gay Muslims” is not an identity. From an Islamic point of view when you engage in homosexual intercourse, you don’t become gay but a sinner. Gay sex is a sin no different than lying or cheating on your wife. Nobody says “Muslim Wife Cheaters” or “Liar Muslim” because Liar and Cheater are not an identity. The only reason why Gay is an identity it’s because of the Anglo weird obsession with gender, sex and race. The rest of the world disagrees. With the decline of the Anglo world this retarded identitarianism will decline too.
seen on twitter
Categories: Bible, Homosexuality, Islam
do you think that the comparison between theft, liars, and cheaters with being gap is a fair one?
being gap? Not sure..
being gay*
besides which gap is a terrible brand so you shouldn’t want to be
Ah however old chap the problem lies in the fact that being gay is not an action nor an indication of action but rather a description of one’s sexual orientation whereas being an adulterer is a name of one who commits an action (a foulest of actions), the other problem with such an equivocation is that while one can stop being an adulterer, you cannot stop being gay. The Shariah as far as I am aware does not concern itself with how people identify themselves with respect to hudud but as you say it is only concerned with public acts.
But you can stop being gap and I would heartily recommend it.
Therefore saying you are a gay muslim is not synonymous with calling yourself an adulterous muslim or even a biscuit dunking muslim (woe unto you!)
‘According to the shariah, sexual acts outside of a legitimate relationship (i.e., marriage) are prohibited, though the punishments for various acts have differed dramatically. As has been made abundantly clear, the shariah as understood and practiced by centuries of Muslim states and scholars had no interest in poking into people’s private sex lives or punishing what seems to have been the widespread phenomenon of same-sex relationships. The policy was basically ‘Don’t ask; Don’t tell.’ But there remains little doubt that same-sex sexual acts, in particular sodomy, have been, and remain, categorically prohibited in Islam (see for a review of the evidence from the Qur’an, Sunnah, and Muslim legal discourse).’
Dr Jonathan Brown
https://yaqeeninstitute.org/jonathan-brown/lgbtq-and-islam-revisited-the-days-of-the-donald/?fbclid=IwAR1BxsRxoz4LFdI1FFGOjiAqXr4tKnlHBgYa8nubQA_ZwxbPhf1YX47LyMI
I’m not doubting that and this has nothing to do with my question dear boy, besides Jonathan Brown also said:
in the context of sexuality and sexual relations, the shariah is concerned with acts, not with feelings, affections, attractions, or inclinations. Only when emotions and desires manifest themselves in speech or actions are sins committed and prohibitions violated.
What I’m asking about is the articles contention with identifying as a gay muslim by equating it as being equally as absurd as being called a thieving muslim or a lying muslim (which of course the English language is capable of accommodating) do you think is a fair comparison?
Yes it is. I think you miss the point of the comments old bean.
Islamically, it is as absurd to identify as an “adulterous Muslim” as it is to identify as a “gay Muslim”, as only behaviour counts.
Ah however old chap the problem lies in the fact that being gay is not an action nor an indication of action but rather a description of one’s sexual orientation whereas being an adulterer is a name of one who commits an action (a foulest of actions), the other problem with such an equivocation is that while one can stop being an adulterer, you cannot stop being gay. The Shariah as far as I am aware does not concern itself with how people identify themselves with respect to hudud but as you say it is only concerned with public acts.
But you can stop being gap and I would heartily recommend it.
Therefore saying you are a gay muslim is not synonymous with calling yourself an adulterous muslim or even a biscuit dunking muslim (woe unto you!)
. . . what seems to have been the widespread phenomenon of same-sex relationships.
He is saying this was a widespread problem of same-sex relationships – done in private but widespread, prevalent.
Wow. Seems that the principle of shame and honor dominates more than actually dealing with the roots of sin.
Mark 7:20-23
Matthew 5:27-30
you are quite mistaken. This is because you dont know any muslims i assume
“the fact that being gay is not an action nor an indication of action but rather a description of one’s sexual orientation”
That is a quite recent Western way of thinking. There is no ‘being gay’ in Islam.
I am a westerner monsier and while it may be true that in Islam there is no such concept as being gay it doesn’t mean that it isn’t true or fair to describe oneself in that way after all as my previous quote demonstrates the Shariah doesn’t care much about how our understanding of our feelings but only action.
I suppose the fair question would be what is the concept of identity in Islam?
The concept of a ‘gay person’ was only invented relatively recently in the West. It is not axiomatic that everyone else on earth must use these terms. There is an implied cultural imperialism in its obligatory use. It carries cultural assumptions about sexuality and identity that traditional religions reject.
I would agree with you that it is not obligatory and should not be forced on people as to how they choose to identify themselves. But where do ‘traditional religions’ reject it? As far as I’m aware it is silent on such matters only referring to people based on biological sex not using descriptions for sexual attraction. While this may be a modern western concept this does not mean it is defacto wrong nor should an identity marker be consistent with thievery or lying.
The Islamic tradition is aware of individuals who experience same-sex attraction and scholarly discussions displayed a sensitivity and tolerance for difference which is perhaps rare in the ummah today.
Yes and I’ve happily seen that with your discussions at speakers corner about the topic 🙂
Dear Mr Williams
I trust you are well. I am by the grace of God an Orthodox Christian, though I was born into the eastern Latin faith, and am at present considering entering into the monastic life. Speaking as a man who has struggled with same sex attraction for much of his life, I have come to the conclusion that God desires all of us to take up our crosses and follow him.
For much of my life all I have wanted was to be like my fellow men who loved women as they should be loved. My unnatural thoughts toward my own gender and the difficulties stemming from them have robbed me, and all other persons who are as I am of this true and holy love in favour of something evil. The fact that I shall never be able to marry and have a family in a true and Godly way is one on these crosses. It may break ones heart to the point where it feels unbearable, but Gods will be done. I will give this tiny little cross of mine to Christ. I am aware that this is a predominantly Muslim website, but I believe that my sentiment will hopefully be well received. The idea of an active gay person claiming to be a practicing Orthodox Christian or Muslim is not only wrong, it is leading souls into darkness.
To those persons who say that homosexuality is a ‘normal’ and apparently ‘healthy’ aspect of human existence, and still claim that they are followers of the divine will, I can only say that I fear for your souls and will pray for you. The idea that gay sexual encounters are in any way compatible to the Holy Scripture or the will of the infallible and holy church is not only wrong, it is a mockery of our Lord Christ. This pernicious heresy is particularly rife amount my Protestant and liberal Catholic brethren. Please forgive my candour, but I feel quite passionate on this particular subject.
O Lord Jesus Christ our God, for the sake of the prayers of thy most pure Mother, our holy and God bearing Fathers, and all the saints, have mercy on us. Amen.
God love you.
thank you for your candour
in the context of sexuality and sexual relations, the shariah is concerned with acts, not with feelings, affections, attractions, or inclinations. Only when emotions and desires manifest themselves in speech or actions are sins committed and prohibitions violated.
What about evil thoughts, lusting, sexual fantasies, pornography, etc. ? (Matthew 5:27-30)
What about other kinds of evil thoughts and feelings? – sinful anger, hatred, jealousy, pride, arrogance, bitterness, unforgiveness, coveting after other people’s property (but not actually doing the stealing)
Ken we have discussed this question before several times. Jesus, a Muslim prophet, aparently referred to such sins in the Sermon on the Mount. If you are unfamiliar with this passage you can read it here: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+5-7&version=NIV
that was a weird answer you gave. That is what I am asking, and I already referred to Matthew 5. But Jesus is not a Muslim prophet.
So, you agree with Jesus that there are sins of thought (even before actual words or actions) ?
Seems you have a contraction in what you all are saying:
1. Only words and actions are sinful.
2. Thoughts can also be sinful and they are the roots and causes of words and actions.
Therefore, there is a contradiction.
Jesus was definitely not a Christian! He never called himself a born again Christian or claimed to have founded this new religion called “Christianity”. He called himself a prophet. He was a Muslim in the Quran’s sense of one who submits to God, as were Abraham, Moses, David and John the Baptist.
There is no contradiction. It is because you have not studied Islam that you make such allegations.
The Sharia penal code is only concerned with public actions not private behaviour. But Islam as such is concerned with righteous behaviour, compassion, goodness and the rejection of all sins.
I’m shocked at the level of ignorance that Christians such as yourself display about islam and its teaching.
Jesus taught the whole principle about how a person must be born again by the Spirit of God – regeneration, conversion, getting a new heart / spirit. John 3:1-10 And He was elaborating on Ezekiel 36:26-27
His apostles took up the word “Christian” (a little Christ, follower of Christ) – 1 Peter 4:12-19 (see verse 16)
12 Beloved, do not be surprised at the fiery ordeal among you, which comes upon you for your testing, as though some strange thing were happening to you; 13 but to the degree that you share the sufferings of Christ, keep on rejoicing, so that also at the revelation of His glory you may rejoice with exultation. 14 If you are reviled for the name of Christ, you are blessed, because the Spirit of glory and of God rests on you. 15 Make sure that none of you suffers as a murderer, or thief, or evildoer, or a troublesome meddler; 16 but if anyone suffers as a Christian, he is not to be ashamed, but is to glorify God in this name. 17 For it is time for judgment to begin [l]with the household of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God? 18 And if it is with difficulty that the righteous is saved, what will become of the godless man and the sinner? 19 Therefore, those also who suffer according to the will of God shall entrust their souls to a faithful Creator in doing what is right.
I don’t understand your question Ken?
//What about evil thoughts, lusting, sexual fantasies, pornography//
What about them?
It’s obvious that christianity is so lacking that cannot differentiate between God’s law on earth because christians had gave that right to the pagan Romans, and the relation of someone with the Almighty God!
*christians had given
the Anglo weird obsession with gender, sex and race.
What is the basis of singling out “Anglo” (English, European?) on this?
These are human problems in all cultures and ethnicities, they are just manifested in different ways.
No. The obsession with sexual identity and race are pre-eminent in Western culture.
It is true that public discussion and debate and political agendas and striving for equal rights in these areas are more of a western phenomenon; agreed.
But that is because in the west, there is more diversity in west. Minorities seek political rights, etc.
But those human tendencies manifest in different ways in other cultures. (warring tribes in Africa; shame and honor about sex in eastern cultures, patriarchy (men being the leaders in the home and politics), etc. Honor to elders, traditional values, etc.
In the west, as traditional values are more and more questioned, the more open and rebellious people become for liberal values.
@ Ken
If I’m following your original point about What about evil thoughts, lusting, sexual fantasies, pornography, etc. ?
This while correct is not the correct context in regards to: “the shariah is concerned with acts, not with feelings, affections, attractions, or inclinations. Only when emotions and desires manifest themselves in speech or actions are sins committed and prohibitions violated.”
We have two things in play:
1. Stopping sin before it begins and a person’s intentions (VERY important and worthy of being studied in much more depth)
2. Application of the law on a person
Someone cannot be punished for thoughts by humans. For example, I can’t order a person’s hand to be cut off because they thought of stealing.
Again what you’re speaking on is important and sin can be committed on a lustful look for example (which is why the Prophet(saw) ordered things like such as to lower the gaze or not be alone with a woman etc) but it’s not applicable in this situation.
@ Ken
Oh, a p.s. Jesus(as) submitted to what God wanted and was thus a Muslim prophet.
Perfect.
“submission” to God existed long before Islam came along around 610-632 AD.
True believers in God have always sought to submit to God – Job, Noah, Abraham, Moses, David, Isaiah, etc
The New Testament also teaches that are to submit to God.
The apostle Paul taught submission also.
Romans 12:1-2
Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship. 2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.
So, are you now going to claim that the apostle Paul was a “true Muslim” ??
You don’t own the word or concept of submission.
It is anachronistic to apply the Islamic religion back into Jesus and the OT. It is 600 years late and a man-made religion.
Ok, good; thanks for actually engaging the issues.
Christianity believes in societal laws and decency and modesty also. Granted, the liberal and atheist / Darwinian / secular naturalism has dominated western society and slowly eroding the good societal values that existed before the “sexual revolution” of the 1960s.
But in a way, it exposed the rottenness of hypocrisy and lack of power of external laws.
But only Christianity also emphasizes the roots of sins in the heart and the solution to that.
External laws don’t root out the roots of sin.
Matthew 5:21-26 – the roots of murder are hatred and sinful anger, unforgiveness, bitterness / a revengeful spirit.
Matthew 5:27-30 – the roots of adultery are sinful thoughts and fantasies in the heart.
Mark 7:20-23 – the root of all sin is in the evil thought and imaginations of the heart.
20 And He was saying, “That which proceeds out of the man, that is what defiles the man.
21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed the evil thoughts, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries,
22 deeds of coveting and wickedness, as well as deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride and foolishness. 23 All these evil things proceed from within and defile the man.”
Islam does not emphasis the root of the problem – it has MAINLY only external solutions of force and government. Sharia law cannot change the heart / soul of mankind, it can only enforce an external societal behavior.
It actually stirs up more sin in secret. (Romans 7:5-13)
For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death.
6 But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.
7 What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, “You shall not covet.”
8 But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead.
9 I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died; 10 and this commandment, which was to result in life, proved to result in death for me;
11 for sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me.
12 So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.
@ Ken
Yes, Ken, I am aware of that. Islam does not claim to be a new religion so thank you for conceding Jesus(as) was a Muslim (one who submitted) and that Islam (submission) was the religion God sent to mankind. Paul would not be a Muslim because he does not submit to God’s laws and commits idolatry.
Anyways you cannot claim laws are hypocritical because God sent them. This is actually blasphemy on your part. To begin, Islam does focus on the root of sin I have no idea who taught you that it didn’t. There are entire books dedicated to this subject such as
Purification of the Heart by Ibn Taymiyyah or Alchemy of Happiness by Ghazali
Just off the top of my head. The laws were sent by God, God is perfect therefore the laws are perfect.
God’s message focus on both inner and external purification. Every society has laws for a reason. God is All-Knowing and Wise and knows what laws to send. Even Christianity tries to use external laws. For example, when there is a rally to stop Gay marriage or abortion. You are attempting to use external law to stop an evil in society. This is the same thing with ALL the laws God sent. You have the inner part (lust looks etc) and the external part (stopping evils from spreading) they both have a part to play in stopping sin from spreading.
Anyways you cannot claim laws are hypocritical because God sent them.
I did not say that God’s laws were hypocritical; rather, in the west, secret sins of hypocrisy were exposed in private life. People are hypocritical, not God’s laws. Because people are sinners.
//Islam does not emphasis the root of the problem – it has MAINLY only external solutions of force and government. //
I think this shows how ignorant you are, Ken in Islam. Nothing more.
Paul, thank you for being righteous. May Allah bless you and keep you and all of us safe from the attacks of our enemy–Satan.
As this post says, engaging in gay acts is a very serious in Islam.
Having said that the people of Lot were even more rebellious in engaging in rape and in rejecting the teachings of the Prophet Lot who God sent to them.
To be clear though, engaging in gay acts itself is very serious sin and was a major factor to a terrible destructive punishment by God to the people of Lot.
I wanted to share a verse from the Qur’an that I found particularly interesting… Some exegetes translate the word Al-Sayhatu as “blast” and at least one translates it as shriek.
So the shriek seized them at sunrise. (Surah 15, verse 73) translated by Sahih International
I used to wonder why it used that word in the past but with the compelling evidence in the news in December of 2018 of the airburst that destroyed the area known as Sodom and Gomorroh, it makes so much sense.
https://phys.org/news/2018-12-meteor-air-years-obliterating-dead.html
And this particular information of the airburst is unique to the Qur’an and not in the Bible
Another miracle of the Qur’an that was impossible for an Arabian prophet 14 centuries to have known
I’m a Gay Muslim and I don’t understand why humans can be so ignorant. I didn’t choose to be attracted to a man just like most men didn’t choose to be attracted to women. I don’t think that Allah would put these feelings in us and then throw us in hell afterwards.
Hi QK
the sharia is concerned with behaviour, with actions. Liwat is prohibited. It is a great sin. But just having feelings is not sinful. I hope that helps.
Hi Paul,
I understand where you are coming from, but I don’t think Allah would want me to force myself to marry and have children with someone who I don’t love. That’s unfair to whomever I’m married to aswell. Imagine being told that in your religion you have to marry a man when you are a heterosexual and you are attracted to women or else you’ll be punished and sent to hell.
I never said you should get married. Clearly that would be inappropriate. I’m in the same position as you. It is a big trial. But don’t change the Deen to suit your desires.
So I guess that ur saying that I should stay single all my life.
Maybe. But there is nothing to prevent you from forming close friendships/relationships with other guys. The key is to focus on your relationship with Allah. We are not here for long.
Would kissing be considered as a sexual act?
There is kissing, and there is kissing. I’m not a scholar but I assume French kissing is not licit. The rule must be: if it is sexual its not halal.
Many people find themselves in this position. People may be unmarried because of physical deformity; poverty; looks, and fate. Not every gay man is 100% homosexual. Many, even most, are probably not. Marriage for them remains a possibility.
I agree with that. Not every man is completely gay. There are bisexual men as well. But for those who are 100% attracted to males, are they supposed to live a unhappy life by being with someone they don’t like?
https://queermuslim.home.blog New blog!
@ The servant of Allah who hs take taken the evil name “Queer Kid” for himself.
It’s one thing to struggle with sin and another to try to make what Allah says is forbidden permissible. You’re not held accountable for what you think (unless you then act on it) but you are wrong in promoting the people of Lut’s(as) actions as if it’s not a clear ruling from Allah. Part of being a Muslim is we submit to what Allah says whether its something we want to do or not. Ibrahim (as) didn’t want to sacrifice his son but he still did so. Musa (as) didn’t want to return to Egypt but he still did so etc.
It was narrated from Abu Hurairah that the Messenger of Allah said:
“When Allah created Paradise and Hell, He sent Jibril, peace be upon him, to Paradise and said: ‘Look at it and at what I have prepared for its people in it.’ He looked at it, then he came back and said: ‘By Your Glory, no one will hear of it but he will enter it.’ So He commanded that it be surrounded by hardships and said: ‘Go and look at it and at what I have prepared for its people in it.’ He looked at it and saw that it had been surrounded with hardships. He (Jibril) said: ‘By Your Glory, I fear that no one will enter it.’ He (Allah) said: ‘Go and look at the Fire and at what I have prepared for its people in it.’ So he looked at it and parts of it were piled upon other parts. He came back and said: ‘By Your Glory, no one will enter it.’ So He commanded that it be surrounded with pleasures and said: ‘Go and look at it.’ So he looked at it and saw that it was surrounded with pleasures. He came back and said: ‘By Your Glory, I fear that no one will be saved from it and all will enter it.'”
https://sunnah.com/nasai/35/3
I’m only warning you about this because insisting on a sin is reason Allah will lead someone astray. First, to refute what you stated:
feelings that arise independently of one’s choice are not immediately deemed “natural” in many other instances. Allah puts desires in people all the time and will punish them if they act upon them examples include:
Alcohol/ drugs, Sex with multiple partners (and wanting to have no commitment afterward) and Kleptomania
But I’m sure you don’t need me to tell you this. Allah says you are enough as an accountant for yourself. Umar(ra) also said: “Hold yourself accountable before you are held accountable and weigh your deeds before they are weighed for you.”
Allah also says:
Every soul will taste death and you will only be paid in full on the Day of Resurrection. Whoever is kept away from the Fire and entered into the Garden will have triumphed. The closer, worldly life around you is only a deception taking advantage of you because you’re not paying attention. You will be tested in what you own and in your inner selves constantly. You will hear from those who were given the Scripture before you and from the pagans many hurtful things. But if you are patient and stay mindful of God, that is true determination. (3:185-186)
My advice to you this Ramadan is to focus on the Ahkirah. Once you internalize this place is only one of many stops you will realize none of this matters.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vARA1bhT0lU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHKE0SjVzxY&list=PLZbEd059Av79QovORi5wQM1P4P60SYE9_
You are not the first person to struggle with this desire (and unfortunately probably not the last). Another recommended book, if you can read Arabic, is Kitab Az Zahra by Muhammad bin Dawud al-Zahiri . He himself had these thoughts (but never acted upon them) and discusses this matter. He quotes a hadith (that’s authenticity is disputed) but you should never the less meditate on it:
“Whoever loves passionately (ʿashiqa) but remains chaste, patient, and keeps his love a secret and dies, dies as a martyr”
May al Hadi rectify you and your affairs. Ameen
First and foremost, I really do appreciate the time and effort you took to write this lecture for me. We both have very different views and Interpretations to Islam. As much as I respect your right to believe, I hope you could leave the judgement to Allah. Only he could decide what is right or wrong.
@ Queer Kid
I have and He is the One who made the ruling not me. First off, your marriage argument is easily refuted all you are (if you REALLY want to simplify this) is someone who can’t get married examples include:
– People with diseases such as AIDS
– the poor
– Eunuchs
I’m going to ask and save myself time. If I go and present the evidence tht Allah has made the people of Lut’s(as) actions haram what is going to happen?
Thank you.
@ Paul and QK
Throwing these possibilities out here:
1. Celibacy
A commendable choice may Allah reward those who do so.
2. Fighting
If we lived in classical times and I was afflicted with this test I would go to the frontlines and work on achieving martyrdom. I can be with Hulk Hogan if I want to in Jannah.
3. Androgynous or masculine women
Now, Paul, I’ve heard you (and some other people I’ve talked to) say something similar before about not every person with homosexual thoughts is 100% attracted to males. So (and I’m really not being funny) why not go get a masculine looking sister with facial hair, a bodybuilder type women or just one of those Japanese androgynous looking females and then just go in from behind spartan wedding night style? Something like this wouldn’t do anything for you?
https://www.boredpanda.com/androgynous-model-rain-dove/?utm_source=google&utm_medium=organic&utm_campaign=organic
https://www.google.com/search?q=serious+looking&tbm=isch&tbs=simg:CAQSlwEJ5FtI8ce0qxUaiwELEKjU2AQaBAgXCD0MCxCwjKcIGmIKYAgDEiijGpUamRqtH5Ma9xmEEJQa4xnTGt06-SS2JeMvhCX1JYclhSXeOoUwGjAoJarCCT0JxWNvRlKWmGg_1pFsSP2W-QiHwN3j3mFL5NO4yVfkm7cjPMxWiFv8CVG8gBAwLEI6u_1ggaCgoICAESBAG1mKkM&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi3ldqDxo3iAhUHna0KHXo7BOwQwg4IKygA&biw=1229&bih=608
https://www.reddit.com/r/malehairadvice/comments/9j8kpl/i_need_a_hairstyle_that_makes_people_read_me_as_a/
https://www.pinterest.com/pin/521995413030911674/
Idk how it works I’m just throwing stuff out here.
3. is not good dude.
“why not go get a masculine looking sister with facial hair, a bodybuilder type women or just one of those Japanese androgynous looking females and then just go in from behind spartan wedding night style?”
That’s actually very inappropriate to say that. Especially for a Muslim.
@ Atlas
Not really. There are masculine looking women in the world and they are attracted to those features. It’s not forbidden to enter from behind (note not referring to the back passage).
Us not talking about it leaves them only with the other option of us hitting them with rocks until they die.
…Allah is not shy of the truth. (33:53)
Being a prude is not piety. All these things I’ve said have been mentioned in one way or the other in the Quran, sunnah or fiqh debates.
1. Going to females instead (Loot(as) and his daughters (Quran)
2. Sex from behind (Quran and hadith)
All I’ve done is give the same advice Loot(as) did.