Source: https://abuaminaelias.com/forty-hadith-nawawi/
Jabir reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace, and blessings be upon him, said:
أُمِرْتُ أَنْ أُقَاتِلَ النَّاسَ حَتَّى يَقُولُوا لَا إِلَهَ إِلَّا اللَّهُ فَإِذَا قَالُوا لَا إِلَهَ إِلَّا اللَّهُ عَصَمُوا مِنِّي دِمَاءَهُمْ وَأَمْوَالَهُمْ إِلَّا بِحَقِّهَا وَحِسَابُهُمْ عَلَى اللَّهِ
I have been commanded to fight the people until they say there is no God but Allah. If they say there is no God but Allah, then they will be granted protection from me for their lives and property, except by right of justice, and their reckoning is with Allah.
Then, the Prophet recited the verse:
إِنَّمَا أَنْتَ مُذَكِّرٌ لَسْتَ عَلَيْهِمْ بِمُصَيْطِرٍ
Verily, you are only a reminder. You are not over them as a dictator. (88:22)
Source: Ṣaḥīḥ Muslim 21, Grade: Sahih
Ibn Taymiyah comments on this tradition, writing:
مُرَادُهُ قِتَالُ الْمُحَارِبِينَ الَّذِينَ أَذِنَ اللَّهُ فِي قِتَالِهِمْ لَمْ يُرِدْ قِتَالَ الْمُعَاهَدِينَ الَّذِينَ أَمَرَ اللَّهُ بِوَفَاءِ عَهْدِهِمْ
The meaning of this tradition is to fight those who are waging war, whom Allah has called us to fight. It does not mean to fight those who have made peace, with whom Allah has commanded us to fulfill their peace.
Source: Majmū’ al-Fatāwá 19/20
And Ibn Rajab writes:
وَالْمَعْنَى إِنَّمَا عَلَيْكَ تَذْكِيرُهُمْ بِاللَّهِ وَدَعْوَتُهُمْ إِلَيْهِ وَلَسْتَ مُسَلَّطًا عَلَى إِدْخَالِ الْإِيمَانِ فِي قُلُوبِهِمْ قَهْرًا وَلَا مُكَلَّفًا بِذَلِكَ
The meaning is that your duty is only to remind them about Allah and to preach to them. You do not have authority to insert faith into their hearts by force; you are not responsible for that.
Source: Jāmi’ al-‘Ulūm wal-Ḥikam 1/236
It is interesting how we need so much massively more work and effort to clarify hadith.
There have been literally books….I am serious….do the research….there have been literally entire books written to deal with the problem of contradictions within hadith.
This is what God directly tells us…you and me and all of us…
Then do they not reflect upon the Qur’an? If it had been from [any] other than Allah, they would have found within it much contradiction. 4(82).
After reading this, it is so sad that some of us can then with a straight face imply that hadith is another revelation from God. What!
Of course the Prophet was in inspired person and so on…we must value his interpretation but to call that interpretation a revelation from God Almighty is far beyond the pale.
First of all, there is more and more and more evidence that some of the “sahih” hadith are not even from the Prophet while I agree that of course there is also evidence that at least some of the sahih hadith are from the Prophet, even if not in the same literal way in as written in a certain sahih hadith.
There will always be some uncertainty to any given “sahih” hadith.
Here is a good and reasoned quote that any reasonable advocate of hadith should reflect on….
taken from the second comment by someone using the name Maglgooglarf
https://www.reddit.com/r/progressive_islam/comments/4n7ah0/who_else_is_quranistqurancentric_here/
I feel like all my comments on reddit are the same, but I would say “read Khaled Abou El-Fadl’s work”. It said what I was thinking in a more formulaic and informed way and has served as a foundation in my understanding of Islam, so it’s really changed my life. In this case, I would recommend starting with “The Search for Beauty in Islam: A Conference of the Books”.
While I agree that there are elements within the corpus of hadith literature that are unsavory, violent, misogynist etc our religion doesn’t function well with a wholesale rejection of all ahadith. The Qur’an was sent down in a particular context, and understanding and applying the lessons therein require an understanding of that context, which shines through via our understanding of the seerah. Similarly, I think the lessons of our prophet (may Allah swt’s peace and mercy be upon him) are important for us, it’s just a matter of finding sources that represent the most accurate representation of the values he espoused.
One of the things that Abou El Fadl does that I think is really important is to say that the validity/reliability of a hadith must correspond with the strength of the effect of that hadith. To show what I mean by example: a weak hadith says something about how we should greet each other in standing or shaking hands or saying something. This is not really a core piece of our religion, so we don’t need a strong burden of proof to accept this recommendation and we accept the validity of this hadith. Another hadith, if accepted, would imply an inherent inferiority of women to men and a subservient relationship between them. As this is a huge claim to make, the requirements for the strength of transmission go way up, especially as it runs counter to the general beliefs stated in the Qur’an. These ahadith don’t, as a general rule, pass such higher levels of scrutiny. When we are more discerning, these ahadith, which tend to be less reliable, stop being an existential problem.
For more specifically on the gender issue, I recommend “Speaking in God’s Name: Islamic Law, Authority and Women” which is very dense and academic. A briefer starting point would be “And God Knows the Soldiers: The Authoritative and Authoritarian in Islamic Discourses”.
Nobody claims the hadith are a revelation from God (although the Hadith Qudsi are an interesting diversion from this), i wouldn’t say either that it took great effort to understand the meaning of the tradition when read in context to the Qur’an which is why i believe this post is important especially considering how Islamophobes and religious extremists misinterpret such hadiths to justify their nonesense.
BTW i don’t understand how you can take seriously as an historical critea that a statement is judged as authentic on the basis of the offence its content may cause!
@ Patrobin
If a hadith is authentic it becomes part of the Sunnah which is a form of revelation.
@ Follower
No one here is following what is being suggested nor has any scholar of note over the last 1,000 years. Using your same reasoning their have been entire articles and written on Quranic violence and “contradictions”. There are two major issues (which even the beginning points out):
A. it’s glorified cherry picking. Both hadith in the example you’ve given establish a ruling. Your entire premise is subjective to whatever you think is morally correct. Allah says do not put your opinion in front of the Messengers and this is EXACTLY what is happening. No one is receiving revelation on high and has no right to declare something to be problematic because they personally can’t understand it.
B. The Seerah is WAY less scrutinized then hadith. If you accept a lot of stuff from the Seerah you should have no issue accepting an established authentic hadith. We allow a good chunk of Seerah stuff in because we need filler in between certain major events. You are basically proposing:
“Hey, guys; let’s throw out authentic stuff we can establish when there is stuff that has issues contradicts it or let’s use non-Muslim sources that we are positive are wrong to establish Islam.”
Finally, in this new fan fiction being created why don’t we remove “problematic”/ misogynist things from the Quran as well? You see the problem with this kufr is it’s inconsistent which exposes its falsehood.
@stewjo004
Thanks for the clarification
@stewjo004,
What verse are you talking about? There is a verse that says people should not raise their voices above the Prophet…I don’t remember any verse about “opinion.”
I completely agree that our opinions cannot supersede the Prophet.
But is it not true stejo004 that God commands us in numerous verses to use our reason?
God’s teachings is very different from the notion you many like you teach that reason is a dangerous tool.
The bad people say in Surah Mulk that if they listened or used their reason, they would not be in hell.
Regarding your points…
A. No, the so-called contradictions in the Qur’an are a joke compared to the real contradictions in the hadith.
Tell me one scholar who wrote a book on contradictions in the Qur’an?
But there were great scholars who found it necessary to write a book on contradictions in the hadith such as the great scholar, Imam Tahawi.
B. The Seerah is not as scrutiinized as the hadith. But, the main points in the seerah such as the wars of the Prophet etc, can be collected from the Qur’an and strong hadiths to paint the essential aspects of the Prophet’s seerah.
@patrobin,
Brother, why are you changing your understanding without a justification.
First you say, Nobody claims the hadith are a revelation from God (although the Hadith Qudsi are an interesting diversion from this) and then after stewjo004 says it is, you say “Thanks for the clarification.”
I will say “Thanks for the clarification” also but only if there is justification.
Saying something is revelation from God is not something one can say lightly.
God says those who say what is not from God is from God is cursed.
God says in Surah Kahf how Prophet Musa was in wrong judgement about Khidr’s actions despite Prophet Musa being confident he was correct.
God tells the Prophet to pray for more knowledge in the Qur’an…I forgot the ayah number.
God says some 6 mistakes done by the Prophet.
I agree that if the Prophet tells us something, we must obey him but that is only
1. when we know he really said it
2. when we know he would say the same thing to us educated people instead of the uneducated people who he was teaching
3. when we know he would say the same thing to us if he lived among us
4. when we know he would say the same thing in our particular context.
Although we can never know for certainty, we can use our knowledge….and do our best.
But the Qur’an comes first.
Unfortunately, in practice the Qur’an does not really come first, front, and center the way many Muslims like stewjo004 talk and like many Muslim scholars talk and it is this man-produced endeavor by the Ahl al hadith over centuries and then that is quite disappointing.
I was thanking him for clarifying his stance on the role of the hadith nothing more. You have to remember that while I have my own views on certain things I’m not perfect and don’t know everything (in fact there are probably a lot of things I don’t know).
Oh, ok for clarifying his stance but not necessarily agreeing with him. My misunderstanding.
Of course, I am not saying I’m perfect or anyone is perfect.
That is precisely my point.
It can be a little blasphemous to point to anything that is not speech from God and to call it God’s revelation.
Many Muslims are not afraid of that blasphemy when it comes to their advocacy of this second revelation theory.
But they should be.
This is not to say that the Prophet was not inspired….he was inspired and thus got some information outside of Quranic revelation.
In surah Tahrim, it says that when the Prophet told two of his wives of some matter, they asked him how can he know this (since they thought he was not aware of it), and he indicated it came from God…but that shows that they did not have this notion that everything that comes from his blessed mouth is revelation from God.
I appreciate this love for the Prophet and may this love only grow but it is out of bounds to say that whatever the blessed Prophet said is revelation from God.
Surah Najm does ***not*** say that.
And those who say it does have the onus to prove it.
stewjo004, you are free to prove it if you can.
And for my clarification, I don’t mean to have negative thoughts to Muslims who do hold such thoughts…I hope they are in the minority and I hope they stop for their own good.
But that is not to say that I am judging them.
Maybe a Muslim who have been fooled into this theory and are stuck on it despite the logical overwhelming evidence against it, are so good in other aspects that he is better than a Muslim who does not hold this exaggerated view.
As Surah Hujurat tells us, we should not judge.
Back to the overall point, it is bad enough to assume that what has been formed as “sahih” hadith in prized collections of Bukhari and Muslims has really been all uttered by the blessed Prophet.
Of course, some of them have been said by the Prophet (pbuh).
It is even worse to project them to God Almighty.
May God guide us all.
Moving on, as I said before the “use our reasoning” is blatant twisting of those ayat. Those are in regards to proving Allah exists and that He is One. Allah NEVER says this in regards to His laws and I challenge you to bring an ayat where its used in that context. What is “reasonable” about killing your son(Ibrahim), not drinking on a day a camel does (Sawleh), killing your family members for worshipping an idol (Musa), fighting an army much larger than yours (Talut) or not fishing one day of the week (the Jews)?
Furthermore, you just said things in the Seerah can override a hadith and did not answer how a thing that is weak can override what is authentically established.
Next, Allah does NOT say Khidr was wrong in Surah Kahf. This actually favors what I said. Musa(as) could not comprehend why Khidr did what he did.
Also, you are cherry picking what the Prophet commanded and believe you are superior to the Sahaba hence statements such as “when we know he would say the same thing to us educated people instead of the uneducated people who he was teaching”
Finally, it is not blasphemy to say that what a prophet speaks is revelation. I don’t hold this position but if you want to get technical regarding Surah Najm that is EXACTLY what it means in Arabic as theirs no qualifier. As I said before instead of listening to deviants and kuffar go study hadith from people qualified to talk on the subject. Here’s a free Usool al Hadith class:
https://diploma.islamiconlineuniversity.com/opencampus/course/index.php?categoryid=11
Look at the person giving you the advice, this entire movement was born out of a man who claimed to be a prophet.
I have a question about Kidr killing the boy. Was he killed just because he would be a kafir and would be a bad influence on his parents later through his disbelief? Or would he cause other harm as well?
It says he would be rebelious to his parents. Could it include harm that isn’t merely disbelief?
“Next, Allah does NOT say Khidr was wrong in Surah Kahf. This actually favors what I said. Musa(as) could not comprehend why Khidr did what he did.”
So the understanding of Prophet Musa was not a revelation itself? Then why is the understanding of the Prophet to be considered a revelation of God Almighty?
To clarify, I do believe the Prophet was inspired human being in that sometimes he was inspired but that does not mean that every thought in his mind was sent by God Almighty.
The Qur’an does not say that.
“Finally, it is not blasphemy to say that what a prophet speaks is revelation. I don’t hold this position but if you want to get technical regarding Surah Najm that is EXACTLY what it means in Arabic as theirs no qualifier.”
stewjo004, do you believe the Qur’an is a book?
Then, please read several verses before that verse in Surah Najm….Surah Toor (53-54)….it talks of the Qur’an.
The onus is on you to produce something that is utterly foreign to the Qur’an such this theory that the hadith is a revelation of God Almighty.
You are uttering something extraordinary. Extrordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. And the evidence of your claim from the Qur’an is zero. In fact, the against in the Qur’an is against your theory. Allah tells in the Qur’an in many verses that the Qur’an is from God….and you think that the Prophet had two revelations?!
Allah is sending verses after verses to convince Muhammad ibn Abdullah that these experiences of him sensing these verses is a revelation of God, and you are saying that the Prophet thought he was receiving two revelations?
Stop. It would be better for your akhirat if you care about that rather than being argumentative.
You have mentioned cherry picking again.
There is much cherry picking on many levels throughout the Qur’an.
From who very small number of companions who are the usual narrators, from the small group of Ahl hadith who promoted this in the late 700s….from what type of people that hadith was accepted from in later generations of narrators and not accepted from….of course, much of this was based on good reasons such as who is said by others (who are dead) as they witnessing the person to be honest and with good memorey but there is also much cherry picking that is the foundation and what permeates the hadith. I am a little at a loss from where to begin to discuss the massive topic of cherry picking in hadith.
Engaging with you is quite draining….for you do not seem to want to find the truth and accept the truth but rather to be fanatical in the understanding you have been used to and what your social circle is used to.
Feel free to answer my concerns and I will be open minded but it is becoming a little annoying and time consuming to interact with you.
I think this so-called “follower” seems incapable of answering any of the points raised by stew and just drones on and on about his personal opinions. Typical of hadith skeptics. They have no methodology, only a pick and choose attitude.
Correction…
I meant to say there is much cherry picking at many levels throughout the hadith ****not the Qur’an****
but because of the hadith, there is cherry picking that is then inflicted on the Qur’an since the effort to understand is through the hadith which is not what God Almighty tells us to do….but it has become a tradition and it is distorting the message of God.
@ “Follower” of the Prophet
I have no idea what you’re referring to Surah Toor is 52 and doesn’t go to ayat 53-54 so I have no idea what point is being made here. Next the onus falls on the person who is overriding established scholarship. This was argued several times regarding the existence of Isa(as) among western scholarship. For example, when Muslims say the crucifixion never happened the onus is on us to prove it because we’re saying almost all scholarship is wrong.
Moving on I have no issue with my position it would be better for YOUR AKHIRAH to stop because hadith rejectors are not considered Muslim by the majority of scholars (btw I hold this position as well). It is “draining” because the only person impressed by the kuffar you bring to discredit hadith are you and that basic logic refutes most the horse crap that comes from their mouths.
You have never taken an Usool al Hadith class (which I’ve made as easy as clicking a button which you still refuse to do) and I’ve been nice up to this point, but quite frankly you don’t know what you’re talking about and sound like a fool. You started this whole thread (and others) to cause fitna and know that EVERYTIME you do it I’m going to be right behind you so that others aren’t misled by this foolishness. As for the “social circle” I’m engaged with that’s scholars from Medina University and its curriculum. Who is more qualified for the discussion, “Follower” of the Prophet “Rashad” with no scholarship credentials or basically the Harvard of the Islamic world?
I’ll keep it simple because apparently were building spaceships in your mind. Allah says to follow the Prophet(saw). Check. Is the Prophet(saw) standing in front of us? No. Are his commands recorded in hadith? Yes. Therefore hadith have been qualified. Ta-dah! Some things in life aren’t that difficult…
stewjo004,
I don’t follow Rashad so knock off the slander and get off your rabid sectarian.
I can get sectarian on you too….you probably prize yourself for being salafi.
I don’t judge sects….I think there are good aspects for every sects…I like how salafis are careful about not doing things that can get close to shirk or are shirk like when some ignorant Muslims ask for deceased at graves for their prayers, etc.
But it is very draining talking to salafis…in general, they don’t like to concede an inch even when their heart tells them something is not right.
You are throwing around the kufr word….that is what kufr means…to cover up the truth when you are getting an inkling that the other person’s argument is onto something.
God is fully aware.
Continue to deny, deny, deny. Change the topic….ad hominem…ad hominem…ad hominem….throw out labels such as modernist, blah, blah, blah….
Salafis are notoriously close minded.
I studied Usool al Hadith VERY, VERY extensively involving the intricate detail.
I studies dense books by usool al hadith scholars.
I spent time metaphorically at the feet of traditional and salafi scholars.
I meant verse 34 in Surah Toor.
The onus is on you.
If a book keeps saying to follow the medical advice of Dr. X…let us say Dr. Karim.
And then if someone says we need to follow the engineering advice of Dr. Karim also, then the onus is on you.
By the way, I don’t want to misguide anyone….I do believe we need to follow the hadith but it is NOT revelation from God Almighty.
There are many, many, many “sahih” hadith that contradict the Qur’an….there are some contradict the Qur’an literally and large numbers that contradict the hadith in spirit.
It is probably a waste of my time to continue.
You talk about Rashad….I reject him….how in the world can I follow him when I said explicitly that I am not a Quranist.
Are you paying attention or are you so stuck on the salafi modus operandi of attacking the other that you can’t think?
But also big opponents of your understanding of hadith has been Abu Bakr and Omar Ibn Al Khattab…..Uthman ibn Affan did nothing to collect the hadith.
Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) did not commission an effort to compile all his utterances, let alone supervising it, approving it, stamping it, disseminating it.
The Qur’an says many good things about the Torah and Gospel (although it says they are not in the pure state) but it does not in one verse out of 6200+ tell us to follow hadith books.
Salafis will attack Torah and Gospel but put the hadith basically at the level of the Qur’an.
May God protect me from this deviation from the Qur’an.
Having said all this, I am not a Quranist since some of hadith is from the Prophet and we should use our intellect to learn from it and to evaluate it and live according to the hadith when they they are in harmony with the teachings of the Qur’an.
After all, the Prophet is proven to be guided and we are not so we must try to follow the best examples and the best examples are the Prophets.
You want to talk about majority of Muslim scholars?
Majority of Muslim scholars are Ashari-Maturidi and would say that most salafis (including possibly you) have some devient understandings like anthropomorphist leanings, etc.
@ Atlas
Allah is basically saying the boy would have made the parents disbelievers through his evil and wickedness. So some of the wisdoms behind Allah taking the boy’s life that I see are:
1. To protect the believing parents from the Fire
2. The boy who would’ve been a disbeliever now goes to Jannah with the parents
3. The parents will be rewarded for their patience and thus get an even higher level of Jannah with their son
I’m sure there are more if one sits and thinks about it some more.
So someone can be killed just for being disbeliever?
Of course not. This was a one-time occurrence meant to teach Musa (pbuh). Remember the hadith from Ibn Abbas (ra) in which he was asked if killing children was allowed in battle. He said that unless you have the knowledge of Khidr (pbuh), you should not kill children because the Prophet didn’t kill children and actually explicitly forbid it.
@ Atlas
QB did a good job I just want to do an add on, this was a revelation from Allah to Khidr. The average joe can’t go around doing this lol. Scholars have differed about what the boy would’ve done. Yasir Qadhi talks about this in his tafseer of Surah Kahf:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kaAGUnwT5wY
The main purpose of this story is that Allah allows evil for the good that it will ultimately bring.
I know what you guys mean but that wasn’t my point tbh.
I know that we shouldn’t kill children. I am asking what the reason was for that one child to die. It says it would bring harm to his parents but in what way? By causing them harm by mere disbelief or more than that. If it’s mere disbelief then it was ok to kill based on that mere disbelief, even if it’s just that one child.
Interesting discussion here. To follower – Do you believe that those who passed on Hadith were lying or just made innocent mistakes in transmitting?
HI Royal Son,
I don’t believe that those who passed on sahih (authentic) hadith were often lying.
Sahih hadith has been hadith chosen through a system to try to find reliable people.
However, the system is not as reliable as traditional and salafi scholars make it out to be.
I am not saying we should discard and ignore hadith, Royal Son.
There are innocent mistakes, distortions, some are fabrications….but the bottom line is that it is not God’s revelation.
There is not one verse where God says He is sending two revelations and numerous, numerous verses that indicate one, only one revelation.
Of course, the Prophet was a good man and “a good example” as the Qur’an says just like Abraham who the Qur’an says two times as a good example.
Although we don’t have details of Abraham, we have many attributed details about Prophet Muhammad.
So we should study the beautiful life of Prophet Muhammad and there is immense beauty and guidance in the hadith.
But since it is not from God, it is a huge sin to say it is from God.
The Qur’an is flawless….I would not say the Qur’an is perfect because God could in theory make a better Qur’an but whatever in the Qur’an is infallible…without any error since it is from God.
The hadith is not a separate revelation from God but there is guidance in hadith as some is from Prophet Muhammad is someone who is proven to be guided.
Many Salafis like to paint any opposition to their very narrow way of thinking in a straw man fashion to be as discarding hadith.
Many of them have difficulty to think in nuanced way using the intellect because they are indoctrinated to be narrow minded…in fact they think that narrow mindedness is a virtue.
Some of their scholars came from Bedouin areas.
Many bedouin had resentment against the educated Muslim civilized cities.
Some of the bedouin are somewhat suspicious of the ability of the capacity of reason.
This is in vast difference to the Qur’an.
Check out the Qur’an Royal Son…are you a Christian?
God demands people to use reason, contemplation, reflection, analysis, open mindedness, study, research so often that the Qur’an would almost burst open with so many verses about it.
You may want to check out…
https://primaquran.wordpress.com
I don’t agree with all the articles….but I agree with the approach that hadith must be actively relegated below the Qur’an.
Royal Son, all Muslim scholars say Qur’an is above hadith but for many historical and other reasons that I don’t time to get into, in practice many Muslim scholars tend to focus too much on hadith.
I ask you Royal Son to read the Qur’an.
I also do not want to make you think that I don’t like Salafis.
I have many Salafi friends.
And many of them are good people.
I just think some of them have been indoctrinate too much and they don’t realize it.
@ Royal Son
If you press them long enough they will eventually say it was the Sahaba who forged hadith. I have many threads with these people and they ALWAYS end up saying this because the Quran and hadith transmissions are too similar for any other conclusion.
Qur’an and hadith transmissions too similar?
stewjo004, you are so confused, I don’t know where to even begin.
It’s not about Sahaba. I have great respect for Sahaba. We are not getting the hadith from hearing speech from living close Sahaba of the Prophet.
Even if the Qur’an and hadith transmissions are EXACT which they are not!…but even if they are EXACT, sahih hadith as a corpus in entirely is NOT a revelation by God.
Can some of those hadith be an inspiration from God Almighty….of course, Prophets were inspired people….so of course. But as a corpus?….may God guide us!
I am not saying that believing in hadith as a revelation falls under below…but at the very least, it is awfully close….
So woe to those who write the “scripture” with their own hands, then say, “This is from Allah,” in order to exchange it for a small price. Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn. (2:79)
I tried to help you as much as I can….stewjo004….I am not saying what your akhirat will be….all that am saying is that whatever your akhirat will be, it would be much better for you to follow the truth wherever it leads and not to follow your sick sectarian fetishes.
Enough of your blah, blah, blah.
wassalam
Oh shut up you moron. The only one blah, blah, blahing is you. You have failed to respond to any of stew’s points with anything resembling a coherent and substantive argument. Hadith skeptics tend to act like they are rational but there is nothing rational in anything you say.
Believe what you will but don’t get mad when no one falls for your pseudoscholarly ramblings.
Royal Son,
I just want to say that you can be guided well to Islam by a Salafi too.
However, I think it is best for you to focus more on the Qur’an without first injecting into the Qur’an all of the mindset that many Salafi muslims would want you to have.
All the best.
I don’t mean to be patronizing and I don’t judge people.
But I just want the best for you and for me and for all people.
@ Follower
Never said I was a salafie so that drops dead in the water. Next, I never called you a kaffir but Quranist are kuffar by majority scholar opinion and I 110% agree with this. The ONLY reason it is not an ijmaa is that it is not kufr to insult the Sahaba but instead falls under major sin. But even the NICEST opinion regarding Quranist among scholarship is they will be in Hell for some time and Allah MAY have mercy on them due to their stupidity.
Next, I can tell you just lied and that you have NEVER studied Usool al Hadith. You see there are certain terminologies people use when they have truly studied subjects. For example, when someone has studied medicine they will say things like contusion, hemorrhage etc. or when a person studies finances they talk about Roth IRAs, bonds, etc I can tell you have not studied hadith based on the nature of your arguments. Since you claimed to study Usool al hadith why don’t you tell everybody under whom? I can tell you, MY teachers, if you wish.
As for your analogy its flawed. A more accurate analogy would be a book says to follow a doctor’s orders. The doctor’s information was written in another book and then some jackass comes 1,000 years later and argues “Well where does the book say to follow this book with the doctors advice in it?”
Next, I already refuted most of your crap on an earlier thread and to save face you have to now claim ad hominem when the reality is you simply ignored all the evidence presented as several people noted. The onus is on hadith rejectors because they are saying over a thousand years of scholarship is wrong. There is NO SCHOLAR ON PLANET EARTH THAT REJECTS HADITH OR A METHODOLOGY FOR GRADING HADITH.
Moving on, I call you a follower of Rashad because that is the true founder of these beliefs. If I ask the average Christian they won’t say they are followers of Paul they will claim Isa(as) but the REALITY is Paul. The same case applies to all these forms of Quranist that come from Rashad Khalifah.
The Quran says to follower the Messenger. Why don’t you explain how to do that using a methodology instead of whatever your personal feelings tell you because guess what Follower no one cares or is betting their akhirah on what you believe is right or wrong.
No one is putting hadith at the same level as the Quran this is purely in your unlearned mind because you haven’t studied the subject and don’t know what you’re talking about. You have already admitted you believe you are more intelligent than the Sahaba so why don’t you tell us how the life of the Prophet reached you that you are to “live by”? Also, I can’t help but notice you can’t quote the ayat about using logic in their proper context. Again please show where Allah says this in regards to His laws. You are PURPOSELY twisting the ayat of Allah so fear Him.
And AGAIN the Prophet(saw) didn’t collect the Quran into a single book so that means nothing. ALL your points have been refuted in the previous discussion and you NEVER give examples just hypotheticals that a person with a year of schooling can refute.
Finally proving that you haven’t studied and don’t know what your talking about again the Salafiyyah do not have anthropomorphic leanings its people denying what Allah says about Himself. Allah says He has a Hand, Shin Eyes etc NOBODY can argue with Allah about what He has said about Himself. We just don’t say its a humans.
@ Atlas
Well to be a kaffir is the worse thing a person can ever become. If the parents were saved from going to Hell I can’t see how that’s not better than the loss of a child I’ll see again in Jannah.
I don’t have time for your Blah blah blah.
I never said I studied in a brainwashing environment like you did.
I did study Usool al Hadith in depth.
Am an expert? No.
But do I know with enough intricate detail about Usool al Hadith that the current approach to hadith by Salafi scholars and Traditional scholars is in deviation?
Yes, absolutely. Based on my in depth study of Usool al Hadith, there is clear deviation.
By deviation, I am not going to say kufr, and blah blah blah.
I would feel more comfortable with my family members to be interacting with traditional Muslim scholars than Quranists.
I am not here to defend Quranists.
I know your brain goes for a spin even though you claim that you are not claiming to be a salafi.
But even someone who has salafi tendencies cannot tolerate nuance….it is either his way….black or white.
“Allah says He has a Hand, Shin Eyes etc NOBODY can argue with Allah about what He has said about Himself. We just don’t say its a humans.”
Allah says to use your mind and don’t say be a fool.
If Allah is perfect, He cannot have a hand, shin, eyes, or anything.
If He did, then the question would be why is God that way and not another way?
The vast majority of Muslim scholars are Ashari or Maturidi and they hold that having such a view is a serious deviation.
There are two verses in the Qur’an that say that everything will vanish except Allah’s face. So by your logic or I should say salafi illogical thinking, Allah’s eyes, hand, shin will vanish but Allah’s face will remain.
In this very thread you refer to me saving face….you do not mean that I saved my literal face but my reputation in this short (but really much too long…LOL) discussion.
If I ask someone to give me a hand….I don’t mean to cut off their hand and give me a hand.
God is being intimate with us and using language denoting power, essence, etc.
God says in the Qur’an that He is in need of nothing….using your previous language, God says this “without any qualification”
God does not need a hand, eyes, shin, etc….whether they are of human, vulcan, martian, or any other type even if that type is unimaginable to us.
It is literally impossible for God to need a hand or eyes or a shin, etc.
According to the majority of scholars you are departing from who is really God and drifting towards a god like Zeus, a big Dude with some really cool eyes, hands, etc. that are different than ours in some way…namely they are bigger…LOL. I know you don’t mean bigger….but no matter how different such body parts are, it is impossible for God to have body parts in a physical sense and it is also impossible for God to have parts in any other sense….except to deal with the inherent limitations of language to express that God has power (hands), and He is a real agent and not an abstract force (hands). and He can see us (has eyes), etc.
It is impossible for God to literally have these body parts in any physical or even in a metaphysical way.
I don’t mean impossible like it is improbable….I mean impossible like 2+2 cannot equal 5.
You have proven that you are a deviant to the majority of Muslims scholars all over the world.
Stop…we are going in circles…I am nauseated by your blah, blah, blah attitude and now your illogical and absurd deviant description of God Almighty, the Uncaused Cause of all existence.
Subhanallah amma yasifoon
@ Follower
Blah, blah, blah is really “I can’t refute what I being said despite my previous attempts to do so by quoting many kuffar in previous threads so to save face Ill act like I know more on a subject and hope no one will notice I can’t back up my claims of studying underneath scholarship.”
It’s not “nuance” I hold many minority opinions across a variety of subjects and I am open to all evidence. THIS is not the case. This is refuting cherry picking Quranist ideology in disguise. You have been asked multiple times to demonstrate examples and you NEVER do. You quote in hypotheticals and say vague crap like all deviants do because they cannot be open about their real intentions.
Here I’ll demonstrate an example for you of my position about Quran and authentic hadith being complementary, here’s an article I published on Islam’ s position about the Torah and Gospel being corrupt:
https://quranandbibleblog.wordpress.com/2019/02/24/corruption-of-the-scriptures-part-i-does-islam-confirm-the-bible-as-a-scripture-from-god/
See a nice BALANCE between the Quran and hadith on the subject. I didn’t “place one into practice more than another” like you have been claiming. EVERYTHING worked in harmony as a whole. Again most things in Islam aren’t that complex and Allah has protected His religion in ALL Parts contrary to Quranist claims.
No, I meant blah, blah, blah in the sense that’s what I get from you.
It’s annoying for me to discuss with someone who has the known narrow minded salafi mindset despite claiming to not be salafi.
I have shown massive holes in your claims.
I can give further refutations but I like to do so with those who don’t talk in blah, blah, blah…but in concise, scholarly, and sensible english or any other language.
I don’t have time to read your article….I am sure it is very well written…congratulations…but I don’t have time…. I can give further refutations but I like to do so with those who don’t talk in blah, blah, blah…but in concise, scholarly, and sensible english or any other language.
Royal Son, it’s too draining for me to keep going into detail with stewjo004
If you want to see refutations to his claims, I advise you to go to http://quransmessage.com
I don’t agree with the approach of this website….even though the erudite and polite scholar claims to not be a quranist, to me he is a quranist…he believes it is perfectly fine to take wisdom from the hadith however, he does not find the hadith to have authority.
I disagree with his claim…I believe that there is authority in the hadith in as far as something we should read on a given issue but then to use our God given wisdom since hadith is not necessarily ***really***authentic even if many scholars claim it is.
Also, I don’t agree with many of his articles.
Anyhow, Joseph Islam of quransmessage.com refutes every issue that stewho004 raises…refutes to the level that the oral narrations attributed by attributed narrators in chains known as hadith is definitely not revelation in the sense of infallible messages from God Almighty.
All the best
and peace to all
@ Follower
Oh you mean like the last few guys you quoted who refuted me and I went down the whole list tearing apart their drivel?
Do you see how you claim to be a “seeker of truth” or whatever crap people like to say to convince the Muslims go astray with them, but you can’t even take the time to read an article? Instead of wasting time listening to “Joseph Islam” who has no scholarly credentials and quite frankly says he doesn’t know what he’s talking about:
“Dear Reader,
I personally do not claim to be an authority over any particular speciality, discipline or thought…”
http://quransmessage.com/articles/about%20the%20author%20FM.htm
Go take in the link I provided the Usool al Hadith class from, and please allow me to emphasize this, SCHOLARS FROM MEDINA UNIVERSITY WHO ARE INTERNATIONALLY RECOGNIZED IN THEIR FIELD. This is the problem nowadays nobody stays in their lane and thinks they understand the deen when they can’t even recite Qur’an properly.
Hadith are revelation genius. Are you ready for the simple proof for that? Prophecy. We have a multitude of hadith that are prophecies that have come true. How can that happen? Oh yeah, by way of revelation. Again Ta-dah!!! You are cherry picking what you like from the Prophet(saw) plain and simple.
Dear all,
Despite my disagreement with stewjo004 on issue of whether the corpus of hadith can be classified as a revelation from God or not and my disagreement with him on whether it is even possible to give any parts to God, I am sure he gives very intelligent and excellent analysis regarding the Bible…I probably would not agree with everything and I have read only little from him on that topic, but I am sure he can be excellent in that field.
Also when I mentioned Subhanallah amma yasifoon, that is a phrase mentioned more than once in the Qur’an and basically means may God be glorified above how they describe God).
My kind regards to all and again peace to all.
Follower of the Prophet Muhammad (may God’s peace and blessings be upon him)
@ Follower
Most scholars are not Ashari (I can say this because I actually study and know people personally who study in Egypt who are the main Ashari, it is mostly promoted by the Egyptian government not what they actually follow) Yes Ashari have Aqeedah issues because you are denying what Allah says about Himself. Watch the magic happen here:
hands of a clock
face of a mountain
Are they literally a hand and face, yes. Are they human hands or a human face? No. Now:
Hands of Allah
Face of Allah
Ta dah! Again not that difficult. Allah says He has these attributes end of story. No philosophical mumbo jumbo is going to change that. If you studied Aqeedah this is pretty basic. This is a clear twisting of the Qur’an born from Greek philosophy. Responses are as follows:
“It is impossible for God to literally have these body parts in any physical or even in a metaphysical way.”
So you are denying Allah exists basically. It’s like the guys who said Allah does not’ exist inside or outside the creation.
“it is impossible for God to have body parts in a physical sense and it is also impossible for God to have parts in any other sense….except to deal with the inherent limitations of language to express that God has power (hands), and He is a real agent and not an abstract force (hands). and He can see us (has eyes), etc.
Yet He describes Himself quite clearly in other ayat of the Qur’an as being All-Knowing etc.and there is no proof of this philosophical argument related from Allah or His Messenger. If He wanted to say power He would’ve said that.
@stewjo004
“So you are denying Allah exists basically.”
I realize this is difficult to salafis (a small minority of the Muslim population to comprehend….most or all salafis think that that for God to exist, He has to exist in spatial dimensions.
So sad, that there are some atheists who have a better understanding of God than salafis.
When God says in the Qur’an that He needs nothing…He is Al-Ghani….then that is it. End of story.
He does not need space and time.
But even beyond that, it is a sin to be an idiot knowingly and to blaspheme that God needs something.
Those salafis who are intellectually challenged and cannot understand that God can be God without needing spatial coordinates to be found in google maps….in other words God does not need space…
Those salafis who have some biological defect in their brains, they may be forgiven…but I am sure a lot of salafis have normal brains and they are just being stubborn in not wanting to understand how they are making God into an idol by thinking He needs space to exist…..again here is the response by stewjo004
“So you are denying Allah exists basically.”
According to most Muslim scholars, God has created space…God has created time.
Think of an author of a book….or a play….Hamlet….
Is the author Shakespeare literally inside the story of Hamlet…of course not.
Shakespeare is outside the confines of the story He created.
God is outside the confines of the universe He created…not outside like He is beyond it in space like salafis may imagine…but outside of needing to be in space whatsoever.
this is very difficult for salafis because they look down upon logic even though God demands we use logic numerous times in the Qur’an.
Furthermore, it has been proven by the General Theory of Relativity and the Big Bang that space and time were created at the Big Bang….
so sad that many atheists have a more refined understanding of God than salafis who still think that space has to be absolute…they might think that time has to absolute too
But GTR has proven that space and time and not absolute but relative
We don’t even this scientific theory
Muslim scholars knew that God is beyond space and time and that was using their intellect…using logic.
Salafis are a very small minority of Muslims….According to most Sunni Muslims scholars who are Ashari and Maturidi and according to Shia Muslims and their scholars, what stewjo004 is saying is blasphemy
@ All
Follower, has no formal scholarly training and gives links to deviants and kuffar who also have no scholarly training because no person of knowledge ascribes to his cherry-picking views of the religion. He does not know what he speaks on regarding Aqeedah nor hadith and despite my best efforts to encourage him to go to school he refuses to. Everyone make dua for him as Allah is the only one who can guide.
@stewjo004
Out of all that you mentioned, this is the only one that is sensible….
“Everyone make dua for him as Allah is the only one who can guide.”
Yes, I would appreciate any duas that are only wishing the best for me and praying for me to be guided for God has absolute knowledge….I am in absolute need of God to guide me and increase my knowledge and to remove any of my misunderstandings….but I don’t want to be selfish…let us pray for God to guide us all.
I recommend for you to make dua such as the following…”Oh, God, there are so many Muslim scholars say I am deviated in the way I think of you….I do not think I am but if I am please guide me and the salafis….Oh God, I do not think I am but if I am wrong to call the set of hadith considered to be authentic to be a revelation by you, please guide me and the salafis.”
@ Follower of self-proclaimed prophet “Rashad”
No, it’s just denying Allah exists and a bunch of philosophical mumbo jumbo to try and sound smart. Please state where Allah or His Messenger says anything you’re saying. Allah and the Prophet(saw) said above the Heavens and above the Throne and it is kufr to deny it. Since you deny ahadith I’ll simply use the Qur’an
“Do you feel safe that He Who is above the heavens will not make the earth swallow you and then twirl you around underneath? Or have you gained some security that He, Who is above the heavens will not send a whirlwind carrying gravel to you? Because then you would come to know how My warning was.” (67:16-17)
If anyone desires power, honor or glory, all of it is Allah’s. Good words rise up to Him and He lifts up the righteous deed, but a severe torment awaits those who plot evil and all their plotting will come to nothing. (35:10)
And boom khalas its over.
And just to show how you’re purposely trying to mislead others I have asked twice now for you to show “using logic ayat” in regards to Allah’s laws or His attributes and still no response. So here’s the third time please show where Allah uses the ayat of those who contemplate etc in regards to His laws or attributes.
Finally, I’m pretty sure nobody here gives a flying rat’s a## what the rafidah think. They can’t even get basics like Tawheed Ibadah right let alone Allah’s transcendence.
This discussion has gone into areas I did not expect. Follower, one of the themes I see that is coming through in your posts is the idea that if Allah has “body parts” for want of a better word, then they would be physical, take up space etc, whereas it seems that Stew has not defined the body parts in such terms, but rather leaves it more up to mystery as to what these “parts” actually are.
I myself am Christian, and I am interested to know both your and Stew’s perspective on this:
If it is possible for Allah to have body parts, yet that they exist in a way that is beyond the norms of what we conceive based on our knowledge and experience of creation, could not the same be said for God existing has three persons, which persons are not confined to the norms of what we conceive in our mind based upon our knowledge and experience of creation?
From my observation, it seems that when a muslim is questioned regarding Allah having body parts, they are told that this is beyond our understanding. Yet, when a muslim deals with the subject of the Trinity, or Jesus being the Son of God, etc, that we are told this is illogical because you can’t have something being three and one, or God having a Son without there being sexual intercourse etc.
With regard to the issue of God being three yet one, Allah is said to be one (Wahid). That is one of His attributes. Do Allah’s attributes transcend our understanding? If Allah is one, is that attribute of being one beyond our understanding? Is it different from a created thing being one? If Allah’s being one is beyond human understanding, then how can one begin to talk about being three yet one as illogical? I haven’t even touched on the matter of different senses in which they are referred, but from my observation, there is a double standard that takes place. I see Muslims treating God as not being a mystery when it’s time to critique the Trinity, but He is a mystery when it’s Allah and discussing his being and attributes.
@ Royal Son
Hi, to begin Follower just talks out of his back pocket. I
To keep this simple, God’s attributes are literal but not the same thing as ours. I’ll use my example from before:
The face of the mountain
The hands of the clock
These things are NOT metaphorical which is what Follwer was essentially attempting to claim, they are literally what the thing is called but it’s not a human’s hand or face. This is the same thing applies for God’s Hand, Face, Eyes etc. they are called these things but the Lord does not look like anything He has created (114:4)
Regarding His Oneness yes even this is unique to Him. Let’s read this verse:
“I’ve created everything in pairs to complement one another, so that perhaps you might think and remember.” (51:49)
Him being One goes beyond just numerically, Heaven and earth, night and day, sun and moon, land and sea, light and darkness, faith and disbelief, death and life, misery and happiness, Heaven and Hell etc. These are so that you can think and remember that God the Creator of all this is One with no pair, equal or opposite.
Welcome
Royal Sun, I am traveling but when I reach my destination and settle down,
I will respond to your question. I agree with you that to some extent those who wrongly
think that God has body parts put
themselves into a contradictory situation. Royal Sun, please see Qur’an 3:7 for some insight.
Stew, thank you for your response. On the one hand (no pun intended), you seem to put things like hand, face etc into one category. Let’s call this category: “other”. However when it comes to the attribute of oneness, you seem to put it into a different category. Let’s call it “both-and”. What I mean is that, unlike Follower, you believe that Allah does indeed have a face, hands, etc, but they are completely unlike the face and hands of creation, they are completely “other” than anything one can imagine. However, when it comes to Allah being one, it seems that you would apply the numerical singularness of oneness as also applies to creation being one as I noted earlier, and then also extend it to a domain beyond that of creation. Why is it that you have this distinction? Why would not Allah being one be entirely other and have nothing to do with being singular?
@ Royal
Lol, still a good pun.
Anyways the difference is because its an attribute vs a name God has given Himself (hence why we have a concept called Tawheed al Asma wa sifat (Unity in God’s Names AND Attributes). This sometimes confuses people because a Name carries an attribute in its meaning but it is still a name. I’ll try to explain more without trying to write an essay so you’ll actually read it.
God (like most things in Islam I believe this extends to the Bible as well) has multiple names He has given Himself, “Allah” is the just the most known one. So let’s use for example another of God’s names which is “Al-Hakeem”. It’s not going to come off as a name when I translate it into English (most commonly translated as The Most Wise but this is incorrect) but it’s ACTUALLY a name God has called Himself it would be like if someone went around calling a guy named Ishmael, “God hears”. Yeah, it explains something but that is not the name or how one normally uses it. Now the meanings of these names (which you can actually do paragraphs on) will give a brief understanding of God but they are a name. We may even partly have this among the creation. For example, humans can have wisdom or be wise but we can never be The Wisdom itself (which is a slightly more accurate translation of Al-Hakim). AL Hakim is the one whom ALL wisdom comes from (so when you do something that people think was wise it REALLY came from Al Hakim who inspired you not you yourself.) Now in regards to your question, God specifically has applied the name, Al Wahid (the One) to Himself so this is a name. We as creation can be one (for example like you said numerically or like I said before wise) but we can never be THEE One who is all alone and unique. Hope you’re still falling me so far.
Now an attribute is something God has but has not named Himself with (now why He didn’t is only something He knows and is beyond our knowledge). These attributes exist but Muslims can not call God by these or deny them. So let’s drop the Hand, Face, etc and use a simpler example. God says that He will become angry with some people on the Day of Judgment. We cannot now designate God as the “Angry One” because He has never called Himself that. We only know somehow He has this attribute that is different from ours in every way except the name. In the discussion between Follower and I we were arguing over attributes such as these (the 2 right Hands, the Shin, the Eyes, the Face). Your question was in regards to a name, in this case, Al Wahid (the One).
And… breathe. Whew. I hope that clears things up. Questions, comments or concerns?