Post reblogged from The Quran and Bible Blog
The last few days have been interesting at BloggingTheology. In a thread discussing the crucifixion story, Christian apologist Ken Temple has been having a hard time explaining the contradictions in the Christian concept of blood atonement. Along with myself and others, our very own brother stewjo004 has been engaging Temple on this issue. This has led to what I feel is telltale evidence of Christianity’s falsehood. Brother stew made the following comment:
“According to Christianity, God originally had a sacrificial system because He has some sort of insatiable bloodlust (kinda like the virgin in the volcano) and Jesus(as) is the only sacrifice that could finally satisfy it. Cool. Let’s run with this. So before Jesus(as) they used the sacrifice system to forgive sins. What happened to people in other nations in Europe, Africa or the Americas who never heard about any of this nor never had a sacrificial system in place? Did they all go to Hell for something they were never warned about? Just need a simple yes or no answer, please.”
To this, Temple responded with the following (emphasis in the original):
“Acts 17:30
30 Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent,
31 because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead.”
Romans 3:21-26
21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;
25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His justice, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;
26 for the demonstration, I say, of His justice at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.”
In other words, Temple’s answer to what happens with all the nations of the world before Jesus’ coming who had no idea about the sacrificial system and were never warned about, is that God decided to forgive them due to His “forbearance”. So those people will be saved! But then wouldn’t this refute the entire sacrificial system as well as Jesus’ redemptive death on the cross? What need was there for it when God had been forgiving people for thousands of years before? Not only does this refute the Christian concept of blood atonement but of original sin as well.
In short, Christianity has been proven false. Brother Stew has ruthlessly destroyed the foundation of the Christian religion. I guess we are all out of a job now. Thanks a lot, Stew!
Categories: Christianity
I think this really is Christianity’s biggest weakness and it should be emphasized in more discussions. The Christians clearly do not have a rational answer.
Without a doubt. The whole “nobody gets to God without Jesus(as)” really is the Achilles heel for this religion.
Great 1 – 2 job Stew and Paul.
It does not refute Christianity, because the New Testament (the True Injeel, the full Gospel message) is revelation from God. You are skipping over the revelation of God for your 600 years late false prophet and false religion.
The point of Romans 3:21-26 is that God demonstrated His full justice against sin in the cross / redemption by blood sacrifice of Christ – it was the fulfillment of all the OT sacrifices – the OT sacrifices pointed to the future Messiah and His redemptive work on the cross by being an eternal sacrifice, accomplishing eternal redemption, and satisfying the justice of God.
The Jews were commanded to tell the other nations about the true God and His principles:
“Tell of His glory among the nations, His wonderful deeds among the peoples” – Psalm 96:3
“I will make you a light to the nations.” – Isaiah 49:6
You guys also keep asking why did God wait so long to send the Messiah (provide the forgiveness and justice)?
But this creates a bigger problem for you, because why did Allah in Islam wait so long to send your prophet Muhammad? 600 years too late.
Acts 17:30 says that God is now declaring to all people everywhere that they should repent and turn to Christ.
In Acts 17:31 the Scripture says that God will judge the world through His Messiah, Jesus Christ, on judgment day, and He furnished proof by raising Jesus from the dead.
His resurrection from the dead proved that His redemption / atonement on the cross was powerful and effective and saves all the believers and provided the justice that God the Father demanded.
The church is commissioned to go and tell the nations, because everyone is lost and dead in their sins and under the wrath of God.
Matthew 28:18-20
Romans 10:13-15
Apart from that that, we can rest in the justice and mercy of God about those nations that were far away from Israel in the OT times.
“will not the judge of all the earth do right?” Genesis 18:25
Kenny is going into damage control!
“It does not refute Christianity, because the New Testament (the True Injeel, the full Gospel message) is revelation from God. You are skipping over the revelation of God for your 600 years late false prophet and false religion.”
WOW!! So that’s the best you could come up with? A circular argument? When will you think rationally? Is your eternal destination worth screwing up because of your ego?
“The point of Romans 3:21-26 is that God demonstrated His full justice against sin in the cross / redemption by blood sacrifice of Christ – it was the fulfillment of all the OT sacrifices – the OT sacrifices pointed to the future Messiah and His redemptive work on the cross by being an eternal sacrifice, accomplishing eternal redemption, and satisfying the justice of God.”
More BS. The point still stands. Your god failed to live up to his own standards. For the vast MAJORITY of human history, your god did not apply the blood atonement standard for salvation. This means that the MAJORITY of humans will get a free pass.
“The Jews were commanded to tell the other nations about the true God and His principles:”
LOL!! How could they tell the people living in the Amazon? In Australia? In sub-Saharan Africa? In North America?
“You guys also keep asking why did God wait so long to send the Messiah (provide the forgiveness and justice)?
But this creates a bigger problem for you, because why did Allah in Islam wait so long to send your prophet Muhammad? 600 years too late.”
LOLOL!! No, it doesn’t create any problem for Islam, dummy. We believe that all nations received the same monotheistic message before the coming of Islam. Islam was the same message through a universal prophet, whereas the previous prophets were for individual nations.
In contrast, your god deliberately refused to reveal himself to any nation other than the Jews. So how could those nations know about him? Your god screwed things up from the start with his ethnocentric plan of salvation, which forced him to give all those other nations a free pass, until he decided to finally come down as a man. So for 99% of human history, your god’s plan of salvation was irrelevant.
Face it. Your religion is false. You have proven it with your clumsy apologetic droning. Get your head out of your rear-end. Let go of your idols. Think rationally. It’s for your own good.
Ken is annihilated!
LOL
By condemning the previous revelations, both OT and NT, you do nothing but condemn Islam, since most of the basics of Islam are from OT and a few things from the NT (Jesus as Al Masih, virgin born, sinless, did miracles, taught the truth and light and guidance in the gospel, etc.).
You condemned Islam also, because it constantly refers to the previous prophets as true – Adam, Noah, Job, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, David, Solomon, John the Baptist, Jesus . . .
LOL!! Why are you avoiding my questions, Kendra? Is the truth intimidating you? Stop being a Christian clown for a minute and try to think clearly. Let me repeat:
1. Your god failed to live up to his own standards. For the vast MAJORITY of human history, your god did not apply the blood atonement standard for salvation. This means that the MAJORITY of humans will get a free pass.
2. How could the Jews tell the people living in the Amazon? In Australia? In sub-Saharan Africa? In North America?
3. Your god deliberately refused to reveal himself to any nation other than the Jews. So how could those nations know about him? Your god screwed things up from the start with his ethnocentric plan of salvation, which forced him to give all those other nations a free pass, until he decided to finally come down as a man. So for 99% of human history, your god’s plan of salvation was irrelevant.
Come on Kendra. Answer the questions.
“Ken is annihilated!”
More importantly, Kenny’s silly religion is being torn to shreds and he can do nothing but stand by helplessly. LOL!!
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, “The righteous shall live by faith.”
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.
Romans 1:16-23
People are without excuse. They are sinners, and must realize that fact.
Whoever is open to the God of creation, gets more revelation:
Matthew 13:11-12
11 Jesus answered them, “To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted. 12 For whoever has, to him more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him.
“whoever has” = those who are open to God and want to know Him, will get more revelation, leading to the final revelation in Jesus Christ – the New Testament truth.
“whoever does not have” = those who look at creation and suppress that knowledge of the one true God (v. 18), by getting busy in suppressing that knowledge that they have (people suppress the knowledge of God through many things that are unrighteous – parties, drugs, philosophy, false religions, political activism, drunkenness, sex, video games, romance novels, hobbies, football, golf, etc.) – and those that don’t give the One God of creation honor and thanksgiving (v. 19-21) are given over to paganism/polytheism or western type materialism – worshiping the creation rather than the creator. All pagan religions started with Monotheism and devolved into increasing corruption and wickedness – read the rest of Romans chapter 1. (sexual promiscuity, homosexuality, and political activism that seeks to force the rest to celebrate their depravity – “God gave them over to a depraved mind” – Romans 1:22-28 and see verses 29-32.
Jesus said the only solution is to first realize that we within ourselves are the problem, not others or our environment.
Mark 7:20-23
20 And He was saying, “That which proceeds out of the man, that is what defiles the man.
21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed the evil thoughts, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries, 22 deeds of coveting and wickedness, as well as deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride and foolishness.
23 All these evil things proceed from within and defile the man.”
Blah, blah, blah. Irrelevant drivel. I can see you were desperately trying to come up with some nonsense to dig yourself out of this hole you have found yourself in.
Man, that was a whole lot of talking with no substance.
1. God forgave the other nations according to you (because other Christians I ask say differently) making the blood atonement unnecessary.
2. God did not establish justice because He forgave the other nations while everyone else is on a different system.
3. In Islam, people are forgiven for lack of knowledge. God tested the people regarding the changes to Scriptures and then sent the Final Prophet and raised the final nation (that’s us btw)
4. Christianity preaches nothing, has no practical application and cannot fix the world because it lives in either a utopia-like fantasy or encourages compliance when one sees evil. If I gave Christianity the ability to run the US right now how would it do so? Also, most of your beliefs do not even come from Jesus(as) its Paul.
4. Why do you always try to divert to Islam when the subject is about Christianity?
1. What do the other Christians say about those peoples outside of Israel far away that never heard?
I am curious.
The fact that God told them to go and “tell of His glory among the nations, His wonderful deeds among the peoples” Psalm 96:3
shows that they needed to know about the true God for salvation.
The Queen of Sheba (modern Yemen) came and asked Solomon about the true God and about the temple sacrifices ( 1 Kings 10) and eventually was converted.
“The fact that God told them to go and “tell of His glory among the nations, His wonderful deeds among the peoples” Psalm 96:3
shows that they needed to know about the true God for salvation.
The Queen of Sheba (modern Yemen) came and asked Solomon about the true God and about the temple sacrifices ( 1 Kings 10) and eventually was converted.”
But what about all the other nations that the Israelites NEVER came in contact with? Answer the question and stop stalling.
2. God is always just, no matter what. Hell is God’s justice. People are without excuse (Romans 1:19-21) Pagans are without excuse because the knowledge of the one true God is within them, but they suppress that knowledge. All polytheistic cultures had the belief in one true God in their ancient history, but they drifted away from that truth and are condemned.
The point of Romans 3:24-26 is more about the final atonement in Christ that demonstrates God’s justice. The lambs and sheep sacrifices were only temporary and pointed to the ultimate sacrifice – Christ Himself.
John 1:29 – behold the lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world.
Rev. 5:9 – some from every tribe and nation, and people and tongue were redeemed by the blood of the lamb.
Mark 10:45 – the Son of Man came not to be served, but to serve and give His life a ransom for many.
Hebrews chapters 9, 10 – Christ’s final sacrifice was the eternal sacrifice and accomplished eternal redemption.
Paul is an apostle of Jesus Christ, and the gospels and all of Paul’s letters are in unity and inspired and God-breathed. All the 27 books of the NT are truth.
Islam is not a nation – it is divided and consists of many nations – and some that fight each other. Shiites and Sunnis slaughter each other.
Islam is a false religion; one man’s claim, 600 years too late; and ignorant of the details of the previous Scriptures; but he wanted to connect himself to the 2 previous religions and books and prophets. (OT and NT, Judaism and Christianity)
4. Christianity offers the only solution to the world’s problems, because the root of the problems come from the sinful heart of mankind.
Mark 7:20-23 – all the external sinful actions come from evil thoughts in the heart. Arrogance and pride and foolishness are also coming from the heart.
Genesis 6:5
Jeremiah 17:9
Matthew 5:21-30 – the roots of murder are hatred and sinful anger and the roots of adultery is lust in the heart. Wars, fights, murders, hatred, racism, injustices, adulteries, fornications, pornography, sex-slaves, etc. – the roots of wrong actions is the corruption of the hearts – the sinful nature.
The only way for hatred and lust and hatred to be overcome, is for regeneration / being born again / getting a new heart.
Islam has no practical value for the world (The Muslim world is in total chaos today – even you guys claim Saudi Arabia is not Islamic, even though it is the most Islamic country in the world, along with Shiite Iran and Taliban in Afghanistan and Hamas areas in Palestine/Israel, etc. – the external rules just make Muslims sin in secret more and hide their sins. The external rules make the people disillusioned with harsh religion and turn away from it and go after other religions or philosophies or drugs, etc. Some of those that seek to keep those external rules turn into Pharisees and self-righteous prideful people. (not recognizing their sinful hearts) Some (not all) go and do violence and terrorism.
Christ and the new birth is the only answer for the world’s problems.
“Paul is an apostle of Jesus Christ, and the gospels and all of Paul’s letters are in unity and inspired and God-breathed. All the 27 books of the NT are truth.”
Nope, your Paul was a false apostle, a disciple of Satan who created his own pagan religion. You will join him in hell if you do not repent of heathenism. The evidence is right in front of you. Your stubbornness will be your doom.
No; the evidence shows that Jesus Himself converted Saul of Tarsus, who became Paul, and Jesus Himself commissioned the apostle Paul. Acts 9, 13, 22, 26-28; I Corinthians 9; 15
Jesus Al Masih converted and commissioned Saul / Paul, 600 years before your late false religion of a subjective claim by one man, with no one else to confirm his writing. We have 40 authors of the Bible and they are all harmonious and unified. 9 in the NT that agree with each other. We have 2 or 3 or more witnesses. you only have one man’s late fake claim; and the result has been war and oppression of women and modern Islamic terrorism. A false religion and plague on mankind and history.
what a bigot
” Christianity offers the only solution to the world’s problems, because the root of the problems come from the sinful heart of mankind.”
LOL!! That’s the funniest statement an idiot can make!
Christianity is a useless religion with no practical application, as brother Stew said. Get over it. Christianity offers nothing to the world except just another false religion with a thousand contradictions in its own theology.
Do you deny that the roots of murder and war and conflict / divorces are selfishness, hatred, jealousy, pride, greed, and lust?
Do you deny that the roots of adultery and fornications are lust / fantasies / evil and selfish thoughts ?
(As Jesus taught: Mark 7:20-23; Matthew 5:21-30; as the prophets taught: Genesis 6:5; Psalm 58:3; 51; Jeremiah 17:9)
The only solution is for the heart to be changed by the new birth.
Ezekiel 36:26-27
John 3:1-21
Islam has no power to change the inside of man; that is why it uses force and harshness and why young people and women especially in Muslim countries are turning away from Islam.
Jesus was a Muslim prophet so we accept his authentic teaching (not the bits added later or altered by unknown scribes)
No way, Jesus was NOT a Muslim prophet. Your false religion came 600 years too late and it is fake and harsh and false religion; unleashing centuries of wars and oppression.
of course he was a Muslim. Your religious ancestors turned him into a god and worshiped him. Islam calls on Christians to repent of this egregious sin.
Historical reality says otherwise. Yours is 600 years late and false and made up. man-made.
Historical reality says that your false apostle and his pagan religion came after Jesus, who never believed in a convoluted and contradictory trinity.
Now back to the topic. You can stall and try to avoid the topic like a pagan coward but the more you avoid it, the bigger the hole you will be in.
Lol!!!!!!!!!!
Buahahahaa!
Kenny is with his ‘600 years later’ trash argument has become a broken record.
As if that refutes ANYTHING.
LOL
Truth never changes.
Boom!!
And Kenny you can lie your lungs out with the ‘ignorant of the the previous scriptures’ trash. To bad you can’t prove it.
“LOL
Truth never changes.
Boom!!”
Wow you got me there!!!
Buahahahaha!
You mean like your god didn’t change by teaching human sacrifice in the NT?
Xtianity is just a bunch of pagan mumbo jumbo.
“unleashing centuries of wars and oppression.”
But that’s what your religion has done.
The audacity of the crosstians!
Your history is the defenition of war and bloodshed!
Kendra is just upset. Being unable to save his pagan religion from being torn to pieces has caused the usual temper-tantrums and whining. Kendra, the topic is the contradictions in your silly religion’s concept of salvation. But if you want to go of on tangents, we can point out that your silly religion left mankind in the dark ages for several centuries. Your silly religion started crusades and inquisitions which killed MILLIONS of people. Your silly religion persecuted pagans, Jews, Muslims and other Christians. Now of course, Muslims have had their share of bad deeds. But nothing compares to your dark religion and its mythical mangod. Remember, it was your mangod that commanded the brutal murders of children. While little virgin girls were being…ahem…”adopted”, little boys were being slaughtered like sheep. Your Bible is the most blood-soaked book in the history of mankind.
There, now that I have decimated your pathetic and cowardly attempts to change the subject, let’s back to the topic. You can start by answering my questions.
“God is always just, no matter what. Hell is God’s justice. People are without excuse (Romans 1:19-21) Pagans are without excuse because the knowledge of the one true God is within them, but they suppress that knowledge. All polytheistic cultures had the belief in one true God in their ancient history, but they drifted away from that truth and are condemned.”
Not your god. He is neither just nor fair.
So now you’re saying that the pagans before your mangod are not saved? You seem confused Kenny.
No one goes to hell unjustly.
Hell is God’s justice.
Luke 13:1-5
Mark 9:47-48
Matthew 5:21-30
STILL not answering the questions, Kendra? BOOM!
How did your god expect the Jews to teach the Native Americans in North America? The indigenous tribes in the Amazon? The Aborigines in Australia? The Japanese?
And were the pagans before the coming of your mangod saved or not?
@ Qb
Thank you Qb for bringing the topic back into focus, yes Ken please explain this for everybody. Also, it appears the sacrifice system is being abandoned so please reconcile everything for us and leave the insults at the door.
@ Ken
Down the line:
1. Regarding other Christians answers I’ve heard throughout my years asking this basic question:
A .All people including the prophets such as Abraham and Moses went to Hell. Jesus then when he died went down to hell and freed everyone ( Actual pastor btw direct quote was “he went down opened the gates of Hell and said c’mon guys let’s get out of here!”)
B. They will be resurrected again and given a second chance on the “new earth” when Jesus returns. (Jehovah Witness belief, predominant one of my personal family on father’s side)
C. I don’t know or It don’t matter
Moving on Qb kinda summed it up beautifully “Islam was the same message through a universal prophet, whereas the previous prophets were for individual nations.”
As QB said you have answered that Jesus(as) isn’t necessary for Israel. They already knew what was needed for salvation for this command to make any sense. We as Muslims believe the children of Israel were supposed to do this as well but they failed. They’re entire existence is now a warning for us not to become like them.
Paul never met Jesus(as0. This is an unverifiable claim. If I say I saw Jesus tomorrow would you believe me? No, you wouldn’t. The story is also not even consistent. You have more writings from this man then even a disciple let alone Jesus. Most of the things you have quoted aren’t even Jesus’s teachings. But let’s not start a new tangent.
No those are philosophical principles not practical application there is a difference. While this is important, there are no steps or laws that can be taken in the real world to raise up a people. Moving on, yes it is better to hide sin than openly proclaim it. However you do not become self righteous in doing this as God hates it
“As for those who avoid grave sins and foul acts, though they may have small faults and commit minor sins or come very close to the major ones but stop, your Lord is extensive in forgiveness. He knows very well where you stand when He brought you all from the earth and when you were hidden away as fetuses in the wombs of your mothers. So don’t ˹become self-righteous and˺ claim you’re pure. He knows best about who are really god fearing…” (53:32)
Finally, nobody likes pretty much any of the people you listed and who told you they were Islamic? Turmoil in the Islamic world is not proof of being false. By that reasoning, the Torah is false through the Jews civil wars or the Romans during Jesus’s time. Even if people were leaving Islam in droves, many of the Children of Israel apostated does the Torah suddenly become false? Didn’t think so.
Also, Jesus (and the Disciples) were a Muslim as they submitted themselves to God. You are by no means on their religion nor the religion of Abraham(as) as they did not worship humans and are free from what you say about them.
So with that being said, you have a gaping hole in your theology which is what happened to people outside of Israel before Jesus? You are diverting the topic from this pretty import question so I’ll let you have the floor.
A .All people including the prophets such as Abraham and Moses went to Hell. Jesus then when he died went down to hell and freed everyone ( Actual pastor btw direct quote was “he went down opened the gates of Hell and said c’mon guys let’s get out of here!”)
That is a false doctrine as communicated. I don’t think a careful or orthodox would say that “Jesus went to hell”. Some of the Prosperity teachers say that, but the scenario that you communicate is probably the understanding of some commentators, that Jesus went to a section of Hades called “Abraham’s Side (or Bosom)”, based on Luke 16:19-31. (and based on Ephesians 4:8-10 and 1 Peter 3:19 “He went and proclaimed, or “made announcement of His victory over sin” to the captives in prison”) This “prison” is hades/ sheol / the place of the dead. Hades is the place of the dead but it is divided into 2 sections before Christ came (see Luke 16:19-31, where there is a torment section for unbelievers and it is separated by a great chasm where Abraham’s Side is – place of comfort and peace for believers); and after Christ came and after His resurrection, (one interpretation of this is), that Christ went to the section of Abraham’s Side/Bosom – where the OT believers in God and the Messiah to come are; and Jesus “led the captives out of captivity” (Ephesians 4:8-10)
That is one view that is compatible with orthodox belief. In Scripture, at the judgement day, “death and (even) hades” are thrown into the lake of fire” (eternal hell) – Revelation 20:14
So, the section of Hades before Christ’s atonement and resurrection that was for all the OT believers (Noah, Abraham, Job, Moses, David, etc.) was emptied and they all went to heaven.
So now, death, even Hades is the place of torment which will become hell or the lake of fire at the judgement. Revelation 20:10-15
The number B is a Jehovah’s Witness belief and that can be dismissed as unorthodox and false.
But the “A” does not answer the question about those that were far off from Israel and never heard of the God of Israel and did not get the news of who the true God is nor the sacrificial system.
So, you actually have not heard of a Christian answer for that issue, right? There were Gentile nations around Israel that did get the message and we have examples of pagans who came to faith in the true God:
Rahab – Joshua 2 (Canaanite)
Jethro – Exodus 18:10-12 (Midianite)
Ruth – book of Ruth (Moabites)
The Canaanite / Phoenician sailors in Jonah (Jonah 1:16)
The Assyrian Ninevites who repented (Jonah 3)
The Queen of Sheba (modern Yemen) ( 1 Kings 10:9)
Naaman the Syrian ( 2 Kings 5)
Uriah the Hittite, one of David’s noble generals (2 Samuel 11-12 – whom David had murdered, and David had committed adultery with Uriah’s wife, Bathsheba. – but David truly repented and was cleansed by the blood on the hyssop branch. (Psalm 51)
Caleb, the Kenizzite, who became a member of the tribe of Judah (Joshua chapter 14, Numbers 32:12; Numbers chapters 13-14) “Caleb, the son of Jephunnah, the Kenizzite”. The Kenizzites were one of the pagan nations listed in Genesis 15:19-21 that were judged by God in Deut. 7, 9, book of Joshua, but God saved Caleb out of that paganism.
Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon – Daniel chapter 4:34-37
Psalm 87 – Babylonians, Egyptians, Canaanites, Philistines, Lebanese (Tyre) and Ethiopians who will come to faith in the true God and be born in Zion. (among those that know Me, those of the peoples who will be registered with the people of Zion). “Zion” in the OT, is the hill that the temple that the Temple in Jerusalem was built upon and so stood for Israel and the redemption by blood sacrifice in the OT. It does not have the meaning of modern “Zionism” (1800s movement for the Jews to go back to the promised land. 1948 Israel as a state, etc.) (not the meaning of the OT verses)
God commanded the people of God in the OT to go and tell the nations around them – Psalm 96:3; Isaiah 49:6; Psalm 67
These OT believers were there with Abraham and Moses (in the comfort part of Hades) and were saved based on their faith (like Abraham’s in Genesis 15:1-6) Christ’s atonement.
The prophets in the OT and Jesus and John the Baptist were not Muslims. Islam started with Muhammad in the 600s AD – 610 AD – started getting visions in the desert; 613 – started preaching Monotheism to the pagan Arabs, 622 AD – Hegira, etc.
I understand that Islam sought to anachronistically read 600 AD Islam back into the OT prophets and Jesus, etc.; but it does not work, since you have to reject so many details of both the OT and the NT without any evidence of changes in the text of Scripture that affects doctrine (beyond the few textual variants that we are all open and honest about). You still have to claim that massive sections of the OT were changed and made up (as you did with David’s adultery and lying and murder of Uriah in 2 Samuel 11 and the results in the chapters that follow). You have to dismiss too much without any evidence.
Fact Jesus was a Muslim and a monotheist. You do not follow his religion in either respect Ken.
Jesus Al Masih عیسی المسیح was not a Muslim, but the Jewish Messiah, who raised up apostles and started a church and is still building that church among all nations. (Matthew 16:16-18; Revelation 5:9; Acts 20:28)
Acts 20:28 “. . . the church of God, which He purchased by His own blood”
ie, Jesus founded Christianity; because He commissioned the disciples and raised up Paul as apostles and they spread the gospel/word into the nations, (and continuing) through churches in each people group/nation.
Where does it say in the New Testament or any of the 4 Gospels that Jesus was a “Muslim” ?
you are reading your religion that came 600 later back into earlier revelation. That’s called anachronism. (against time)
It is illogical and anti-intellectual to be so against the reality of time and logic and history.
gosh, you are soo ignorant Ken. Let me educate you: in arabic a muslim is a person who submits to God. Abraham. David, Moses and Jesus all did so. Ergo they are all Muslims.
Are you?
The meaning of a word does not mean they belonged to a religion that was not even in existence until 600 years later.
Christians also believe in being submissive / surrendered to God.
Luke 9:23 – “deny yourself, take up your cross daily, and follow Me” Jesus said
Romans 12:1-2
present your whole body and life as a living sacrifice (submit to God), holy, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship. And
Don’t be conformed to this world, but by the renewing of your mind, be transformed . . .
Yes, I am other Christians are called to submit to God and we seek to do that every day. though not perfectly, we still sin, but so did the prophets. The key is by asking for forgiveness, confessing one’s sins to God, repenting, and looking again to the cross for cleansing – 1 John 1:5-10 – “the blood (the bloody substitutionary death on the cross) of Jesus cleanses us from all sin”. That is why in church we regularly celebrate the Lord’s supper (or Eucharist) – Remembering Christ’s eternal sacrifice for sins.
But that makes us Christians, not Muslims.
As QB said you have answered that Jesus(as) isn’t necessary for Israel.
I never said that.
Abraham’s faith was in the LORD (Yahweh) AND His promise to give him a son from his own body – which is the Jewish understanding of the Messiah.
Genesis 15:1-6
All the OT saints were looking to the Messiah, the one who would come and crush the serpents head (Satan) – Genesis 3:15 – “the seed of woman” – a prophesy of the virgin birth.
the one who would bless all nations – Genesis 12:3; 22:17-18 (see Galatians 3:6-8 and 3:16 – all of this was about the one person, Jesus Christ, the Messiah)
Moving on Qb kinda summed it up beautifully “Islam was the same message through a universal prophet, whereas the previous prophets were for individual nations.”
That only works for Monotheism – Judaism and Christianity.
What about the Buddhists, Hindus, Chinese Taoism, pagans, etc. ?
The Muslims called the Persians “fire worshippers” (Zoroastrians, Magi)
Sometimes the Islamic sources condemn them, sometimes they later seemed to be incorporated into the people of the book.
But given the Jihads on Persia for 300 years to subjugate them (a totally unjust and evil thing), it seems that Islam considered them pagans also.
Paul never met Jesus(as0. This is an unverifiable claim.
Yes, he did, according to holy Scripture – Acts chapters 9, 22, 26 and 1 Corinthians 15 and Galatians chapter 1 – in Galatians chapter 1 and 2 – Paul visited Peter, John, and James, and they accepted his message and testimony as the truth and agreed with each other. So, you are wrong about that.
If I say I saw Jesus tomorrow would you believe me? No, you wouldn’t.
That is different; as the testimony of Paul is from infallible revelation / Scripture and the added testimonies of the other disciples in Galatians chapter 1.
The Apostle Paul wrote, around 48-49 AD, right before the Council of Jerusalem in Acts 15:
7 “But on the contrary, seeing that I had been entrusted with the gospel to the uncircumcised, just as Peter had been to the circumcised 8 (for He who effectually worked for Peter in his apostleship to the circumcised effectually worked for me also to the Gentiles), 9 and recognizing the grace that had been given to me, James and Cephas (Peter) and John, who were reputed to be pillars, gave to me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, so that we might go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised. 10 They only asked us to remember the poor—the very thing I also was eager to do.”
Galatians 2:7-10 (bolding my emphasis)
That is also why we don’t believe Muhammad got revelation from God Almighty, because revelation was closed with the New Testament.
Jude 3 – “the faith that was once for all time delivered to the saints”
Hebrews 1:1-3 – “God spoke in various ways in the OT, but has finally spoken definitely in the last days through His Son . . . ” (summary of what it is saying)
Summary of:
John 14:26
John 16:12-13
“the Holy Spirit will bring to your remembrance all that I taught you” and “the Holy Spirit will lead you into all the truth”
2 Peter 1:12-21 – “as long as I am still alive, I will be diligent to remind you (by writing this letter) see parallel with 3:1 – “this is the second letter I am writing to you to stir up your sincere minds to remember the truth”
2 Peter 3:15-16 – all of Paul’s letters are Scripture, equal to the OT.
Revelation 22:18 – “do not add to the words of this prophesy”
Yes, I know that is about that book specifically, but in principle, combined with the other verses, it shows that revelation was finished with Jesus and His apostles.
So, the Qur’an and Islam was 600 years too late and false.
“revelation was closed with the New Testament.”
Where does Jesus say that? Or God? Or Paul?
All the NT is the Word of Jesus and the Word of God.
Jude 3
Hebrews 1:1-3
John 14:26
John 16:12-13
2 Peter 1:12-21; 3:1; 3:15-16
2 Tim. 3:16-17
LOLOL fake references.
No; they all existed around 600 years before Muhammad.
They are apostolic, infallible, inspired, inerrant Scripture, holy book.
Yaaaawn. Man, this broken record is getting soooo old!
“No; they all existed around 600 years before Muhammad.
They are apostolic, infallible, inspired, inerrant Scripture, holy book.”””
We should have a try-not-to-laugh challenge by making people read all of Kenny’s parrot quotes.
I wouldn’t make it past the first one.
“I wouldn’t make it past the first one.”
LOL.
“as the testimony of Paul is from infallible revelation / Scripture” – where does Paul claim this about his writings? In reality he denies that what he says comes from God in 1 Cor 7:12.
In 1 Cor. 7:12 is only saying that he is not quoting from the historical Jesus’ while Jesus was on earth. (ie, not a quote from the Gospels), but he clearly claims that his writings are from inspiration of the Holy Spirit. (1 Cor. 7:40, 1 Cor. 2:10-16)
so it is from God and you are wrong, again.
@ Ken
A. If memory serves me correctly I believe they were non-denominational. However, this is a very popular opinion among many Christians I talk to and was part of the Church’s official stance. If you look at my article when I’m refuting the crucifixion I quote from the Apostles Creed which may be based on 1 Peter 3:18-20
“Jesus who was conceived of the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, buried and descended into hell.”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostles%27_Creed
B. Jehovah Witness I would argue are more orthodox than you. They probably believe closest to what the authors of John and Revelation believe. (Trinity can’t be supported, Jesus is a pre-existent divine being subservient to God.) And they believe in the world ending soon like Paul did.
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1101984334
C. Never argued that the Jews weren’t supposed to be an example for others. However, this refutes several things:
1. They can’t preach salvation without having the whole package thus Jesus isn’t needed.
2. Other nations NEVER came into contact with the Jews (for example the Americas, Japan, South Africa etc.)
C. There is a LOT of proof to dismiss MUCH of the Bible:
1. Many books are gone or argued about:
https://quranandbibleblog.wordpress.com/2018/04/21/missing-books-in-the-bible/
(All these books are official in one churches canon while rejected in another)
https://www.sefaria.org/texts/Apocrypha
2. Crucifixion story is contradictory (also there are contradictions in the book period that are dismissed as “scribal errors”:
https://quranandbibleblog.wordpress.com/2018/07/21/top-8-contentions-against-the-crucifixion-part-i/
3. Proven forgeries
Ending of Mark, Lady taken in Adultery
4. Unknown authors and a lack of chain to anything
5. False prophecies
6. As I stated earlier the Jews slander the prophets all the time. (Case in point Jesus(as))
D. It did not take 300 years to open Persia them dudes were done in less than 30 lol. Also, this was a fulfillment of Biblical prophecy (See Daniel 2)
F. What they believe now means nothing. For example, look at Christians who we know have recieved a Scripture and are completely left field now. Or the Arab pagans they believed they were following Abrahams(as) religion. Innovation is a powerful tool and I can pull examples from islamic history as well such as the Sabaities, Qadrani, Muta’zila etc.
D. Circular logic. I Paul say I am good. Again don’t want to get in a tangent here
E. Prophethood is NOT finished according to Christianity:
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%2011:1%E2%80%9311:14&version=nkjv
Again I don’t believe this passage, but prophethood is not complete according to Christianity.
F. Also 2 questions regarding 2 Peter:
1. Assuming Peter wrote this, what is his authority to claim that this book is equal to what God wrote? (Torah)
2. Did Paul know he was supposed to be writing Scripture or was he simply writing to various Churches? If the former what happened to Corinthians 1?
Misc.
The son is Isaac(as) nothing to do with the Messiah(as)
So in conclusion, what happened to the people before Jesus’s coming in nations outside of Israel whom they never came in contact with?
A. “He descended into hell” is not in the earliest Greek manuscripts of that Creed and so is a later addition; and does not fit, even with 1 Peter 1:19 or Ephesians 4:8-10.
B. I dismiss that as Jehovah’s Witnesses are not credible and a false religion started in the 1800s.
C. Proclaiming salvation to the nations is more than just being an example. Psalm 96:3; Psalm 67
D. Apocrypha OT books are not inspired, even Macabees admits that; and all orthodox Jews even admit this. No apocrypha book is quoted in the NT. There are other quotes, (from other Jewish books and other Greek writers) but those are not from the Apocrypha.
There are no contradictions in the crucifixion story.
There are no forgeries that made it into the NT canon. Liberal theories.
The woman caught in adultery in John 7:53-8:11 may be a separate tradition, based on what Papias mentioned about it, which is very early. (Papias – around 135 AD)
E. “opening up Iran” is a euphemism for “attacking” and “conquering” in unjust war and Jihad. the initial battles may have been around 30 years, but it took 300 to fully subjugate all the tribes and peoples and convert them to Islam. (Iranians themselves say this)
No, it was not a fulfillment of Daniel 2. What a dumb claim. Daniel 2, 8, and 7 are about:
Babylon (606- 586 BC)
Persia ( 539 BC)
Greece (330 BC)
Rome (64 BC)
Messiah coming during time of Roman Empire
nothing about Islam
F. Not circular logic, since Paul is under inspiration of the Holy Spirit and Peter affirms him. (and John and James affirmed him.)
G. Jesus gave authority to the disciples to later write Scripture:
John 17:8
John 14:26
John 16:12-13
H. Jesus came from the line of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Judah, David (Luke 3:31-34) [Mary’s side] – Matthew 1 – Joseph’s side
In conclusion:
What happened to those nations farther away from Israel that were not reached?
I don’t know.
But God is just and holy and good and merciful, so we can rest in that and we don’t have to know.
The definitive work on the issue of the phrase “he descended into hell” in the Apostles Creed:
http://www.waynegrudem.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/he-did-not-descend-into-hell_JETS.pdf
the Apostles Creed was not written by the apostles. No one knows who did.
That is true; but the content is apostolic – it is there in the New Testament.
In fact, the Arabic word “opening” (Surah 1 – فاتحه ) comes from the root Arabic word, “conquer” فتح
To “open” Persia (and Byzantine) was to conquer them by force / Jabr جبر , war/ Harb حرب , fighting and killing قتل و قاتل , Jihad جهاد (effort and striving in physical war and fighting)- all unjust and wicked.
why is killing women, children and babies by the sword just? 1 Samuel 15.
“why is killing women, children and babies by the sword just? 1 Samuel 15.”
It’s not. Kenny has no logical argument other than “well if God said, then it’s just”. But God would not command injustice. You cannot define something that is unjust by definition and then say that it is “just”.
Ken likes to have it both ways. If it’s genocide in the Bible, he has no problem.
A. More Scribal forgeries got it. Thanks Ken.
B. Not a fair argument being objective. I dismiss trinitarians as a false religion statred in the 200-300s
C. I think you misunderstood me. Being an example is part of proclaiming salvation. Case in point, you attempted to argue about the Muslim world being bad as evidence of falsehood. My point is a nation cannot proclaim salvation without having the whole package hence Jesus(as) is not needed.
D. Tell that to the other Christian Churches all the books I just showed in the link are accepted in diffrent Church canons simply look up each book and you can see it for yourself.
E. Yes there are contradictions in the crucifixion story along with historical errors
https://quranandbibleblog.wordpress.com/2018/07/21/top-8-contentions-against-the-crucifixion-part-i/
F. Papias is a 100+ years after Jesus(as) what is his source? That is what matters. This is desperation to save lady taken in adultery because its a favorite. Also again Ending of Mark is a clear forgery. And I believe Shamoun (who I doubt you would say is liberal) conceded three witnesses in heaven as a forgery in his article on this blog.
G. Daniel 2 is about Islam if you weren’t arrogant and listened you would learn something:
Your interpretation causes a false prophecy as nothing happened to the nations and Persia and they no longer exist so you can never complete this. The proper interpretation is as follows:
1.Gold Head: Babylonian Empire (626 BC – 539 BC)
2.Silver Chest/Arms: Medo-Persian Empire (539 BC – 330 BC)
3.Bronze Belly and Thighs: Greecian Empire (330 BC – 63 BC)
4.Iron Legs: Roman Empire (63 BC ->)
Rome then splits into two empires AFTER Jesus(as). Rome and Byzantines. That gives you the iron and clay.
5.Iron/Clay Feet: Byzantine/Roman Empire (330 CE)
Interpretation for the 10 toes (from Edward Bishop Elliott)
1. The Saxons
2. The Franks
3. The Alamanni
4. The Visigoths
5. The Suevi
6. The Lombards
7. The Burgundians
8. The Heruli, were annihilated by the little horn. (493 CE)
9. The Vandals, were annihilated by the little horn. (534 CE)
10. The Ostrogoths, were annihilated by the little horn. (538 CE)
the last three kingdoms are the horns
“I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots:…” (Daniel 7:8)
“… he shall subdue three kings.” (Daniel 7:24)
Finally the prophecy concludes:
“And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.” (Daniel 7:27)
This prophecy is speaking about successive empires so the stone has to be the Islamic Empire, as its the empire that comes next and is specifically established on religion unlike the rest. It’s also known that the end of the Roman Empire (Byzantine) came at the hands of Muslims in 1453 with the fall of Constantinople.
This prophecy also coincides well with a prophecy made by the Prophet(saw) at the Battle of Khandaq:
A large rock was causing great difficulty in digging the trench for the pick mattock could not break it. When the Prophet (peace be upon him) was informed about it, he went down into the trench and struck the stone with the pickax breaking one-third of the rock. Thereupon the Prophet (peace be upon him) said, Glory be to God, the keys of Syria have been given to me. With the second blow of the pick, the Prophet (peace be upon him) hewed another one-third of the rock and said, Glory be to God, the keys of Persia have been given to me. By God, I see white castle of Madain (Ctesiphon). In the third attempt, the remaining portion of the rock was broken into pieces. The Prophet (peace be upon him) then said, Glory be to God, I have been given the keys of Yemen. By God, I can now see the gate of Sanaa. (Ibn Kathir, Vol. III, p. 1)
https://www.muslim-library.com/dl/books/English_300_Authenticated_Miracles_of_Muhammad_.pdf
You can watch all the kingdoms listed above get destroyed by the Islamic Empire here:
http://explorethemed.com/riseislam.asp
So the timeline is as follows:
1.Gold Head: Babylonian Empire (626 BC – 539 BC)
2.Silver Chest/Arms: Medo-Persian Empire (539 BC – 330 BC)
3.Bronze Belly and Thighs: Grecian Empire (330 BC – 63 BC)
4.Iron Legs: Roman Empire (63 BC ->)
5.Iron/Ceramic Feet: Byzantine/Roman Empire (330 CE)
6. Stone from Heaven: Islamic Caliphate (632 CE)
H. Also your criticism of fighting is hypocritical as just earlier this week you were defending every man, woman and child of a nation being slaughtered even after they surrendered.
https://bloggingtheology2.com/2019/02/28/a-christian-dilemma/comment-page-1/#comment-3304
H. It is circular as you only have letters from Paul telling the story. We know he argue with the Disciples and called Peter a hypocrite. Is that divine inspiration as well? A letter written to a church is not equivalent to a book God wrote Himself.
I. None of those verses say the Disciples are allowed to write a book or that it is s equal or superior to God’s Words. I don’t know how you extracted that ruling.
J. I know the Jesus(as) is of Isaac’s(as) lineage but in the passage, you quoted the son being foretold is Isaac(as), not Jesus(as) that is a blatant twisting of the text.
And of course the “I don’t know answer”. So I agree God is the above so He doesn’t need blood sacrifices to forgive which was the whole point and this is just a made up false doctrine by the Church. Thanks for making this come full circle.
Ken crash and burn!
LOL
I may seek to answer that material later. Too much right now.
LOL, you haven’t answered anything pertaining to this thread as of yet! But I know the reason. When Christian clowns get cornered, they start going off on tangents.
childish triumphalism
Well, there you have it folks! The undecided voter has spoken. That’s it, it’s over! How can anyone refute such a cogent and well-thought out argument?
Agnostic.. stick to fapping to Fortnite.. leave the posting to grown ups
So after more nonsense posts, Kendra still failed to answer the burning question: what about all those nations that NEVER has any contact with the Jews???
Kendra knows that this is a question that Christianity cannot answer, so what he is stalling and posting garbage posts that are only good for comic relief. I think he is hoping that we will just get tired of his mindless droning and leave him be. How wrong he is!
Come on Ken:
what about all those nations that NEVER had any contact with the Jews??
I don’t know.
But I guess they went to hell because they are sinners and did not believe in the one true God or His Messiah. And that is justice because of sin and “all are under sin” and “all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God” (Romans 3:9-23)
“All we like sheep have gone astray, each one has turned to his own way . . . ” Isaiah 53:6a
But I also know that God is love and just and good and sovereign and true.
talk about confused and confusing.
WOW, how anticlimatic! This tends to happen though. After getting pounded for a few days, and trying so hard to avoid answering the question, Kenny finally breaks down and admits that he has no clue on how to answer the question! And that is the fruit of Christianity, a religion with no answers.
Kenny thinks his “I don’t know” answer should solve the problem, but all it does is expose the confused religion that is Christianity. And it also shows how unjust the Christian concept of “God” is. Kenny thinks that the countless nations that the Jews NEVER met will be in hell, DESPITE the fact that they NEVER had any idea about Christian concepts like original sin, blood atonement etc. Thus, for the vast majority of human history, the Christian god failed to give adequate knowledge to these nations, while giving other nations the benefit of such knowledge. How is it just to punish all those nations that had no clue because of the Christian god’s ethnocentric plan of salvation? This is not a “loving” God. This is a hateful, deceitful and evil god, which makes Christianity evil at its core. The True God is none of these things.
@ Ken
Unlike everyone here I appreciate your honesty in saying I don’t know. I would rather you say that then try to feed everybody a bunch of crap for a few days. Simply add “God knows best” and you’re on your way to gaining knowledge Ken. May God guides us all to the path that is pleasing to Him. Amen.
If he was honest, he would have said that days ago. Instead, he tried to stall and go on tangents. That’s not honesty.
that was cool.
stewjo004’s comments were cool.
Let’s hope Ken will see the light of Allah soon.
@ QB
Be nice. It takes a lot to admit something during a debate. This is one of the reasons I don’t like having them as I don’t believe it promotes good discussion. You are asking someone to change their entire worldview of something they have believed their entire life. It’s not always easy to do that.
@stewjo004
So, I finally found some time to think about your prophetic scenario.
Where did you get that commentary by Bishop Edward Elliot? Is it on line somewhere?
I had to google him, and he was a preacher in the 1800s. (from a viewpoint of a historicist school of interpretation of prophesy)
I have never even heard of the Suevi or Heruli tribes.
I had to google them and I see now that they are Germanic tribes.
The others I am familiar with.
But the scenario does not fit very well, because it jumps over the Arab Muslims conquering (and Rushidoon, Abbasid Caliphates, Fatimid, Ummayid, etc.) of so much of the Byzantine Empire, to the Ottoman Empire. (1453 conquering of Constantinople)
So, how does the fall of the Ottoman Empire around end of WW 1 (1917-1918 to 1924 abolishment of Caliphate) fit in with your scenario ?
Do you think the Ottoman Empire was righteous?
I have read that most Muslims today don’t recognize them as righteous, that only the Rushidoon Caliphate was (Abu Bakr, Omar, Uthman, Ali)
What is your opinion of Mustafa Kemal Ataturk, who abolished the Sunni Caliphate in 1924?
How does Shiite Iran and Southern Iraq fit into the scenario?
@ Ken
Hey Ken. As you said Bishop Edward Elliot was a clergyman with a focus on Jewish Christian Eschatology. His book “Horae Apocalypticae” mainly focuses on the Book of Revelation (and is used as a general standard in its interpretation) but he covers various prophecies recorded in Daniel as well. He makes some out there stuff or sometimes has a clear bias (he HATES Muslims) but personally, I think he makes some convincing arguments in a lot of other places though. I don’t know if I’m allowed to post pdfs here but type in Horæ Apocalypticæ in google it will show up. Its in 4 volumes.
Ottomans were kinda of ehhh… They had good and bad like all the caliphates but they were by no means the worse (I think that honor goes to the Umayyads followed by the Mughals) and I think they get a lot more flak than they deserve. The Prophet(saw) said are next Caliphate will be really righteous though. As for Mustafa, I don’t think highly of him and he will probably be always be remembered as a traitor by anyone who isn’t Turkish. He was a good politician but that’s about all the nice things I can say about the gentlemen. As for Iran and the Shia mostly annoying major opinion is will serve the Antichrist. Same with the Fatimids etc.
Now the fall of Constantinople being 800 years later doesn’t really affect anything in my opinion. The “kingdom” is established and doing its thing for lack of a better word. Also, we have prophecies regarding leadership ourselves so I think when you combine the symbolism and prophecies together everything correlates and God knows best. I’ll try to keep this short as I can:
Daniel 2
Stone is the kingdom God establishes that destroys everything. Timeline wise we’re fitting but is there more I personally think so.
Parable of the Tenants
Jesus(as) is alleged to have said 2 crucial points of analysis.
Kingdom has been taking from Jews
Rejected Cornerstone
Muhammad(saw) compares himself to a cornerstone:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah’s Messenger (ﷺ) said, “My similitude in comparison with the other prophets before me, is that of a man who has built a house nicely and beautifully, except for a place of one brick in a corner. The people go about it and wonder at its beauty, but say: ‘Would that this brick be put in its place!’ So I am that brick, and I am the last of the Prophets.”
https://sunnah.com/bukhari/61/44
God knows best but my interpretation is had they believed in Jesus(as) and followed them God would have given them victory over the Romans. They reject so he says now they will not have it and it will be given to another nation(that’s us btw)
Now Elliot, of course, didn’t see that. He hated Muslims but he drops the ball on Daniel 2. The nation that destroys the other nations is Muslims and its the only one that is founded on religion.
“What happened to people in other nations in Europe, Africa or the Americas who never heard about any of this nor never had a sacrificial system in place? Did they all go to Hell for something they were never warned about? Just need a simple yes or no answer, please.””
Neither did Allah send a warmongering warner so it seems.
So no answer from you either, huh? It seems you idiots know you’re stuck. Your religion has no practical answers.
Warmonger? You mean your pagan god who calls for the annihilation of entire nations?
@ Erasmus
Sooo… basically you’re saying you can’t answer the question so you need to deflect to save face got it. Also weren’t you just saying Joshua’s(as) genocides were okay and then asserted that the little girls (that were given as sex slaves) were “adopted” by the Jews without evidence?
So your objection to a prophet fighting wars is without evidence and hypocritical. If you couldn’t answer the question it would’ve been better to simply keep quiet. So with that being said what happened to the people outside of Israel before Jesus(as)?
Can you give me the names of any islamic warners between Noah and Abraham that are not stolen from the bible?
@ Erasmus
Hud(as) and Saleh(as).
Now that your deflection failed miserably your turn to answer the topic of the post. What happened to the people outside of Israel before Jesus(as)?
Bro, Iggy is not going to answer the question. You see how he keeps ignoring it? He knows that it puts him and his idolatrous religion in a bind, but he wants to cling to his false god rather than admitting the facts.
@ QB
I know he won’t lol. Ken is probably the most knowledgable among them and he said he doesn’t know. I just like watching Erasmus squirm and try to deflect like I don’t know what he’s trying to do.
And which peoples did they go to and when?
The tribes of Aad and Thamud. Somewhere between Noah(as) and Abraham(as) most say 5 generations after Noah(as). 🙂
Man this sure, is a lot of questions for something, not related to the topic of the post. So what happened to the people outside of Israel before Jesus(as)?
So the “miracle of the Koran” can only come up with a vague fable about two warners in which it is not even revealed when and where they operated. Doesn’t seem that Allah cared much about the pagan civilizations in America and Africa.
Lol, too embarrassed to admit that you got schooled? Have you trinitarian pagans no shame? Why not just admit that you are a clueless moron who will keep moving the goalpost everytime he is refuted and humiliated?
And of course, despite your best efforts to change the subject, the question remains: what happened to the people outside of Israel before Jesus (pbuh). Your fellow pagan Kenny already got smoked. Are you afraid to join him?
The Jews and Jewish proselytes took the knowledge of God in to many parts of the world.
Acts 2 v 5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? 9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia, 10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, 11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.
Before Abraham there were communities of God-fearing like the family of Job.
What was your Allah doing while all this was going on?
Oy vei! Another one bites the dust! What about the Aborigines? The Native Americans? The indigenous tribes in South America? The Nordic people in Europe?
Your fake god failed to reach out to these people. It is so hilarious watching you morons squirm, trying to find an answer even though you know you are stuck!
There is no evidence of any outreach on the part of your fake god to these peoples.
Iggy is confused and has no idea how to answer the question. Poor ignorant pagan. 🤣
You answered it.
“Before Abraham there were communities of God-fearing like the family of Job.”
So you admit there were other believers outside of Israel. Soooo… those people went to Heaven. Soooo…. God does not need blood sacrifices. Sooooo…. No need for a final sacrifice. There modern Christianty’s core doctrine crumbles.
Become a Muslim.
P.S. Allah is also your God whether you accept Him or not. Just for giggles, here’s what Jesus(as) called God
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?t=kjv&strongs=h426
You are simply confused.
Talking to yourself again Erasmus lol
@ Erasmus
Not confused, the false doctrine is just easy to disprove.