A Secular Muslim is someone who believes that the Creator was sufficient enough to set highly calculated mathematical and physical laws that organize planets in their orbit, but wasn’t sufficient enough to create laws that organise the human society.
Categories: Islam, Secularism
A secular religious believer understands that human societies develop/evolve during time. Laws that organized ancient societies hundreds or thousands years ago are to large extent anachronistic and obsolete in today’s socio-economic-political contexts.
@ Agnostic
Yes, this is true hence why fiqh exists to adapt with changing circumstances.
As an add on because I realized you wouldn’t know what fiqh is. What I mean to say is that Islamic law is much more developed and robust than people (including Muslims) realize.
Are jurisprudence branches into 3 categories:
1. Shariah
These are permanently placed principles (ex. no interest, establish justice, etc) or explicitly mentioned in the text.
2. Fiqh
These are modifiers when new situations come not mentioned in the text. For fear of length, I won’t break these down.
3. Government type laws
These are just everyday things such as traffic laws, littering etc. They get filtered through the above.
Sheikh Bilal Philips has an excellent lecture series and book on this subject. With these 3 things, there is really nothing that can come up from an illiterate village to a thriving empire that Islamic law can’t adapt for.
In 2019 you forgot a fourth category for islamic law: petro dollar. I’m sure Dr. Bilal Philips has brilliant relevant ideas for organizing “the human society” today. The man with PhD thesis “Exorcism in Islam.” Just the kind of experts the world is in need of and waiting for.
Al Ghazali, one of the most prominent and influential thinkers of Islam, rejected the idea of independent natural laws. Now, in 2019, Muslim apologists present the idea “the Creator to set highly calculated mathematical and physical laws that organize planets in their orbit …” see above.
If Muslim understanding of natural laws of physics isn’t even consistent, why on earth should anyone trust them to have correct understanding of “laws that organise the human society.”?
First off that is not what Imam Ghazali(rh) was arguing against. Neil Tyson was simply speaking on a subject he had no knowledge about. Ghazali(rh) was essentially arguing against Greek philosophy and it influencing Islamic understanding. This has nothing to do with fiqh which we’re speaking on. Ghazali(rh) himself wrote Asas al-Qiyas (Foundation of Analogical reasoning) which is a book on fiqh. As a p.s. Ghazali is hardly “one of the most prominent and influential thinkers of Islam. He honestly is a minor scholar and I’ve ONLY non-Muslims say that. Sheikh Ibn Taymiyyah probably has that distinction.
So long story short we have the ability to adapt to any society or time period due to fiqh.
@ Agnostic
1 Poisoning the well fallacy
2. You can’t seem to stay on topic in this discussion. What do any of your posts have to do with fiqh allowing Islamic law to adapt to various situations and it being a proof of Islam’s universal nature?
That’s all he can do. The guy has absolutely no valid points to make.
In 2019 there is no islamic legislative solution functioning universal in nature. Just religious hardliner wishful thinking. It is all talk but no action.
@ Agnostic
“there is no islamic legislative solution functioning universal in nature”
Uhh… that’s not by choice. Why do you think extremist exists in the first place? They want to overturn an “Islamic government” to install an Islamic government? Yea that makes sense. The reality is you have multiple puppet dictators (whom the people don’t want) placed into power by foreign colonial entities.
Moving on, it’s not “religious hardliner wishful thinking” our record is proven from 1,400 years of existence. In those 1,400 years we have not been an empire (or empires) on the world stage spanning multiple cultures, nations and races for less than 100 so the system works and is at it’s worst batting a 7.14% failure rate.
But when the system is followed we start seeing magic happen. A simple example let’s take something that is in an embryo stage in Islamic thought, finances. Something that will affect everybody regardless of their religious beliefs. This system is less than 30 years old and by no means are the kinks worked out let’s see how it fared:
“A new IMF study compares the performance of Islamic banks and conventional banks during the recent financial crisis, and finds that Islamic banks, on average, showed stronger resilience during the global financial crisis…Islamic banks contributed to financial and economic stability during the crisis, given that their credit and asset growth was at least twice as high as that of conventional banks.”
https://www.imf.org/en/News/Articles/2015/09/28/04/53/sores100410a
Would you look at that, follow divine legislation, get divine results. Not really rocket science.
Now I know you will attempt to deny and go onto a tangent so as for last part the political turmoil in the Muslim world is actually a prophecy and once again proves Islam:
“”Prophethood will remain amongst you for as long as Allaah wishes it to, then Allaah will raise it up when He wishes to raise it up. Then there will be Khilaafah upon the manner of Prophethood and it will remain amongst you for as long as Allaah wishes it to, then Allaah will raise it up when He wishes to raise it up. Then there will be harsh kingship which will remain amongst you for as long as Allaah wishes it to, then Allaah will raise it up when He wishes to raise it up. Then there will be tyrannical kingship and it will remain amongst you for as long as Allaah wishes it to, then Allaah will raise it up when He wishes to raise it up. Then there will be Khilaafah upon the manner of Prophethood. Then he was silent”
Saheeh: Related by Ahmad (4/273), from an Nu’maan ibn Basheer radiallaahu anhu. (Silsilatul Ahaadeethus Saheehah/Al-Albany)
So leadership in Islam was:
The Prophet (saw)
The Rashidun Caliphate (Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman, Ali and Hassan)
Sultans (The Middle Ages to Modern (WW1) and the various sultans)
Dictators (The Muslim world today)
Back to Rashidun Caliphate
In conclusion,
1. Become a Muslim
2. The Shariah is robust and easily capable of adapting to modern times due to fiqh
3. The Shariah is demonstrably superior to man-made legislation and is not “theoretical”
4. Muslims are forced into dictatorships (and this coincides with prophecy)
5. We are going to win in the end
6. Seriously become a Muslim
Nice!
So where is functioning islamic solution to big data and social media? Where is the islamic answer to Google, Apple? Where is an universal working legislative answer to killer capitalism and economic crisis? Where the islamic answer for the United Nations? Not to mention solutions for the environental crisis? Medical System? International trade? Where are the Muslim Nobel prize winners? If there are any, they are most probably too be found at ivy league universities in US. Need I go on?
We see magic happen? Quoting Hadith and dreaming of Caliphate? You forgot Hadith about the signs for the end times. That’s what Muslims like, thats what they are good at. They are incapable of providing relevant answers for the many problems of real secular life today.
Islam isn’t a monolithic religion with a clear hierarchical structure of authority we can all look to for answers to these problems, with respect to ecology, Seyyed Hossein Nasr. Sheikh Abdal Hakim Murad has spoken by business ethics and Sheikh Hamza Yusuf has spoken about Capitalism and other political ideologies.
I’m not too sure what you mean by the answer to Google, Apple etc… with respect to material possessions and how to live a worldly life; I was reading Surah Al-Imran yesterday and was reminded of a principled approach:
“Beautified for people is the love of that which they desire – of women and sons, heaped-up sums of gold and silver, fine branded horses, and cattle and tilled land. That is the enjoyment of worldly life, but Allah has with Him the best return. Say, “Shall I inform you of [something] better than that? For those who fear Allah will be gardens in the presence of their Lord beneath which rivers flow, wherein they abide eternally, and purified spouses and approval from Allah. And Allah is Seeing of [His] servants those who say, “Our Lord, indeed we have believed, so forgive us our sins and protect us from the punishment of the Fire,”. The patient, the true, the obedient, those who spend [in the way of Allah ], and those who seek forgiveness before dawn – Surah Al-Imran 3:15-17
@ Agbostic
You’re mad lol. You clearly didn’t read my post as I quoted from the International Monetary Fund(IMF) that basically said is banking was superior to everyone else.
You do know Islam can provide answers to everything you just said right? (Like seriously most of these aren’t even that complex) So this argument that took you 10 days to come up with is really strange. Nothing you brought can’t be solved through fiqh. Case in point we just solved banking (which in turns assist the economy) I know you’re gonna hate regardless and not give us our dues.
Also we have PLENTY of doctors, engineers and scientist (like seriously it’s a running joke among Muslims) Our leadership just sucks something fierce and is corrupt.
https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2017/02/countries-with-most-doctoral-graduates/
Btw PhDs and Nobel Prizes aren’t a sign of intelligence and I think its so stupid when people say this. I never finished college but man I sure do hire a lot of people who did. College is literally paying thousands of dollars for someone to read you a book and you have no guarantee of a job after going into debt. (Major issue in countries like Egypt)
Final note, I didn’t say the world would be utopian (as this is life isn’t heaven) but we can VERY much compete with any manmade system today. Disasters etc will still happen but the point is we have the full ability to govern ourselves and the world and this doesn’t require secularism.
This guy is simply parroting the same arguments that Richard Dawkins has made…”oh, there are no Muslim Nobel prize winners, therefore Islam is bad!”
This guy is clueless. He likes to make a fool of himself using childish arguments.
“You do know Islam can provide answers to everything you just said right?”
Why doesn’t it then. Please do. The world is waiting.
“but we can VERY much compete with any manmade system today.”
Please do. Still waiting.
“we have the full ability to govern ourselves and the world”
… priceless
In a progressing world your understanding of “Islam” has not much to offer as long it is trapped in a self-centred self inflicted repetitive circle.
@ Agnostic
I just gave an example of banking. You’re mad because you were proven wrong so now you’re moving the goalpost.
Muslims are busy shopping like everyone else
And the undecided voter is still busy trying to be taken seriously.