‘Now go and attack Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have; do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.’”
What would the Rabbis that you guys use all the time (like Rabbi Tovia Singer) say about the texts of Deuteronomy 7, 9, the book of Joshua and I Samuel 15 ?
Would they deny that those texts are part of the Scripture?
It seems disingenuous to constantly bring up OT texts that you agree with, and then also bring in these texts to somehow cause doubt and unbelief in Christianity and the Scriptures; and yet the Qur’an affirms all of the Bible, both OT and NT. (Surah 5:47; 68; 10:94; 2:136, etc.)
How can that be when the Qur’an challenges the people of the book to read their own Scriptures? (at the time of Muhammad) and even with the few major manuscript textual variants (Mark 16:9-20; John 7:53-8:11; I John 5:7) – even without those – everything else is basically the same from the earliest manuscripts to the time of Muhammad. So, you are wrong. The author or compilers of the Qur’an sincerely thought the Torah, Zobur, and Gospel that the people of the book were reading was not corrupted. (2:79 and 3:78 refers to other splinter groups that either twist the meaning of the text with their tongues (interpretations) or who go off and separate themselves off and write a book and claim it is from God – but it says they are illiterate and only know by hearsay, so it cannot be the Christians or Jews of that time and that have existed for 6 centuries, etc. The Qur’an never says the text was changed or corrupted or lost.
Actually, it is Muhammad who is illiterate and uniformed and is just hearing things and having scribes write down his human thoughts. He is the very one who did what Surah 2:79 is saying.
What does Rabbi Tovia Singer say about the text of I Samuel 15?
Leaving aside the question of the morality and ethics of the command (just for now); I am asking do Jews believe that I Samuel 15 is inspired, original to the author – Samuel – part of the original TaNaKh ?
Part of the Prophets of the TaNaKh?
Also, Deuteronomy chapters 7, 9, and the book of Joshua (other texts on the OT holy wars against the Canaanites and other pagan nations / tribes within the promised land – ?
Does Singer and other Jews (for Judaism as truth) accept all of these texts as original to God’s revelation?
If so, what evidence do you have they are not original to the Torah, Prophets and Writings? (TaNaKh)
Proof that the Qur’an never claims the text of the OT nor NT has been changed or corrupted. (some groups are accused of mis-interpreted, yes; but never textual corruption nor been lost – at the time of Muhammad, the Qur’an assumes the Christians and Jews have their books with them that were original revelation from God.)
Now Kenny is trying a different tactic to excuse the barbarism in his Bible. First it was “well, it’s God’s justice”. Now it’s “well Tovia Singer also believes in this!” OK, well good for Tovia Singer. How does that excuse the barbarism of your Bible?
Then Kenny tries the “well the Quran affirms the Bible!” Well, even if it did (which it doesn’t), how does that excuse the barbarism of your Bible?
Red herrings do not answer the question of why your Bible affirms such horrible crimes in the name of your god?
Ken you have been schooled on the “Qur’an confirms the bible” so many times but youe blindness forces you to keep bringing it up. You’re a hopeless case.
No Ken unlike certain religions we don’t develop our beliefs over time and this matter is clear in Islam. You’ll notice they never quote someone saying “Oh their Scriptures are pure and uncorrupted” they try to force their own interpretations into a text (ironically trying to do a form of corrupting to our Scripture) Let’s see what the Qur’an states:
After going through moments of Jewish history where they disobey God and Moses(as) God asks the Prophet:
2:75. Now do you ˹really˺ hope that a people such as this will believe in you, when some of them used to hear God’s words and then change or twist it, even though they understood them?
2:76. When they meet those who believe, they say: “We’ve believed!” But when they’re alone in secret, ˹they˺ say: “Are you telling them about what God has ˹revealed to us previously˺, so that they can make a case against you, with your Lord? Don’t you have any type of common sense or understanding?”
2:77. Do they not understand that God knows what they’re hiding and what they’re showing?
2:78. Among them as well are the ‘illiterate’ ones who don’t know the Scripture except for wishful thinking. They’re only making guesses and assuming.
2:79. May damnation be unleashed on those who write the Scripture with their own hands, then say: “This is from God,” in order to sell it for a worthless price. May damnation be on them for what their hands have written and may damnation be on them for what they’re earning.
To begin the “illiterate” part is a play on words about the laymen who don’t understand the Scripture and just talk, not about actually being illiterate. This shows the lack of reading comprehension of the person in the article and again them ironically fulfilling what the verse says lol.
At this point I would like to take a moment to see what some Companions(i.e. “Disciples”) of the Prophet’s opinions about this subject were:
Narrated ‘Ubaidullah bin `Abdullah:
`Abdullah bin `Abbas said, “O the group of Muslims! How can you ask the people of the Scriptures about anything while your Book which Allah has revealed to your Prophet contains the most recent news from Allah and is pure and not distorted? Allah has told you that the people of the Scriptures have changed some of Allah’s Books and distorted it and wrote something with their own hands and said, ‘This is from Allah, so as to have a minor gain for it. Won’t the knowledge that has come to you stop you from asking them? No, by Allah, we have never seen a man from them asking you about that (the Book Al-Qur’an ) which has been revealed to you.
So boom the matters clear at this point but let’s go the extra mile:
5:13. But they broke their promise, so I cursed them and made their hearts hard. They changed the words from their original places and have forgotten a huge piece of what they were told to remember, so you will continue to find treachery against you or cheats from a few of them. Overlook this and forgive them because God loves those who excel in doing good.
5:14. I had also took a Covenant from those who say: “We’re Christians,” but they too forgot part of what they were told to remember. So I released animosity and hatred among themselves until the Day of Judgement, when God will tell them what they used to manufacture.
5:15. People of the Scripture! My Messenger has come to you; clarifying what you used to keep hidden of the Scripture and who overlooks much ˹of what you changed˺. A light has now come to you from God, along with a Scripture making things clear,
5:16. which God uses to guide to the ways of peace, all who are looking to follow what pleases Him. Leading them from their various shades of darkness into the Light, by His will, and onto one straight path.
The overlooks much is referring to what they changed of the Scripture hence the “a light has come to you and a Scripture to make all these lies clear”. Again from Ibn Kathir(rh):
“So the Prophet explained where they altered, distorted, changed and lied about Allah. He also ignored much of what they changed, since it would not bring about any benefit if it was explained.”
6:91. They did not value God as he deserves to be valued when they said: “God hasn’t revealed to a human being anything.” Ask them: “Who was it then who sent down the Scripture, which Moses brought as a light and guide to the people, which you separated and made into these scrolls, showing some but making sure to hide many? And now you’ve taught something which neither you nor your fathers knew.” ˹Help them out and˺ say: “God…” and then leave them there amusing themselves and running their mouths with useless talk.
Again what is the meaning to this clear verse? From Ibn Kathir(rh):
“you made the Tawrah into separate sheets which you copied from the original and altered, changed and distorted as you wished. You then said, “this is from Allah,” meaning it is in the revealed Book of Allah, when in fact, it is not from Allah.”
But, but, but it was God’s justice!
What would the Rabbis that you guys use all the time (like Rabbi Tovia Singer) say about the texts of Deuteronomy 7, 9, the book of Joshua and I Samuel 15 ?
Would they deny that those texts are part of the Scripture?
It seems disingenuous to constantly bring up OT texts that you agree with, and then also bring in these texts to somehow cause doubt and unbelief in Christianity and the Scriptures; and yet the Qur’an affirms all of the Bible, both OT and NT. (Surah 5:47; 68; 10:94; 2:136, etc.)
Don’t misrepresent islamic teaching: The Qur’an teaches the original scriptures have either been corrupted, lost or misinterpreted.
How can that be when the Qur’an challenges the people of the book to read their own Scriptures? (at the time of Muhammad) and even with the few major manuscript textual variants (Mark 16:9-20; John 7:53-8:11; I John 5:7) – even without those – everything else is basically the same from the earliest manuscripts to the time of Muhammad. So, you are wrong. The author or compilers of the Qur’an sincerely thought the Torah, Zobur, and Gospel that the people of the book were reading was not corrupted. (2:79 and 3:78 refers to other splinter groups that either twist the meaning of the text with their tongues (interpretations) or who go off and separate themselves off and write a book and claim it is from God – but it says they are illiterate and only know by hearsay, so it cannot be the Christians or Jews of that time and that have existed for 6 centuries, etc. The Qur’an never says the text was changed or corrupted or lost.
Actually, it is Muhammad who is illiterate and uniformed and is just hearing things and having scribes write down his human thoughts. He is the very one who did what Surah 2:79 is saying.
What does Rabbi Tovia Singer say about the text of I Samuel 15?
Leaving aside the question of the morality and ethics of the command (just for now); I am asking do Jews believe that I Samuel 15 is inspired, original to the author – Samuel – part of the original TaNaKh ?
Part of the Prophets of the TaNaKh?
Also, Deuteronomy chapters 7, 9, and the book of Joshua (other texts on the OT holy wars against the Canaanites and other pagan nations / tribes within the promised land – ?
Does Singer and other Jews (for Judaism as truth) accept all of these texts as original to God’s revelation?
If so, what evidence do you have they are not original to the Torah, Prophets and Writings? (TaNaKh)
Proof that the Qur’an never claims the text of the OT nor NT has been changed or corrupted. (some groups are accused of mis-interpreted, yes; but never textual corruption nor been lost – at the time of Muhammad, the Qur’an assumes the Christians and Jews have their books with them that were original revelation from God.)
https://apologeticsandagape.wordpress.com/2018/01/08/did-the-people-of-the-book-corrupt-the-bible/
Now Kenny is trying a different tactic to excuse the barbarism in his Bible. First it was “well, it’s God’s justice”. Now it’s “well Tovia Singer also believes in this!” OK, well good for Tovia Singer. How does that excuse the barbarism of your Bible?
Then Kenny tries the “well the Quran affirms the Bible!” Well, even if it did (which it doesn’t), how does that excuse the barbarism of your Bible?
Red herrings do not answer the question of why your Bible affirms such horrible crimes in the name of your god?
Ken you have been schooled on the “Qur’an confirms the bible” so many times but youe blindness forces you to keep bringing it up. You’re a hopeless case.
No Ken unlike certain religions we don’t develop our beliefs over time and this matter is clear in Islam. You’ll notice they never quote someone saying “Oh their Scriptures are pure and uncorrupted” they try to force their own interpretations into a text (ironically trying to do a form of corrupting to our Scripture) Let’s see what the Qur’an states:
After going through moments of Jewish history where they disobey God and Moses(as) God asks the Prophet:
2:75. Now do you ˹really˺ hope that a people such as this will believe in you, when some of them used to hear God’s words and then change or twist it, even though they understood them?
2:76. When they meet those who believe, they say: “We’ve believed!” But when they’re alone in secret, ˹they˺ say: “Are you telling them about what God has ˹revealed to us previously˺, so that they can make a case against you, with your Lord? Don’t you have any type of common sense or understanding?”
2:77. Do they not understand that God knows what they’re hiding and what they’re showing?
2:78. Among them as well are the ‘illiterate’ ones who don’t know the Scripture except for wishful thinking. They’re only making guesses and assuming.
2:79. May damnation be unleashed on those who write the Scripture with their own hands, then say: “This is from God,” in order to sell it for a worthless price. May damnation be on them for what their hands have written and may damnation be on them for what they’re earning.
To begin the “illiterate” part is a play on words about the laymen who don’t understand the Scripture and just talk, not about actually being illiterate. This shows the lack of reading comprehension of the person in the article and again them ironically fulfilling what the verse says lol.
At this point I would like to take a moment to see what some Companions(i.e. “Disciples”) of the Prophet’s opinions about this subject were:
Narrated ‘Ubaidullah bin `Abdullah:
`Abdullah bin `Abbas said, “O the group of Muslims! How can you ask the people of the Scriptures about anything while your Book which Allah has revealed to your Prophet contains the most recent news from Allah and is pure and not distorted? Allah has told you that the people of the Scriptures have changed some of Allah’s Books and distorted it and wrote something with their own hands and said, ‘This is from Allah, so as to have a minor gain for it. Won’t the knowledge that has come to you stop you from asking them? No, by Allah, we have never seen a man from them asking you about that (the Book Al-Qur’an ) which has been revealed to you.
https://sunnah.com/bukhari/97/148
Ad-Dahhak said that Ibn `Abbas commented,
(Woe to them), “Means the torment will be theirs because of the lies that they wrote with their own hands,
http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=355
Qutaadah said: “The phrase ‘then they used to change it knowingly after they understood it’ refers to the Jews, who used to hear the words of Allah, then they altered it after they had understood what it meant.”
https://islamqa.info/en/answers/2001/corruption-of-the-tawraat-torah-and-injeel-gospel
So boom the matters clear at this point but let’s go the extra mile:
5:13. But they broke their promise, so I cursed them and made their hearts hard. They changed the words from their original places and have forgotten a huge piece of what they were told to remember, so you will continue to find treachery against you or cheats from a few of them. Overlook this and forgive them because God loves those who excel in doing good.
5:14. I had also took a Covenant from those who say: “We’re Christians,” but they too forgot part of what they were told to remember. So I released animosity and hatred among themselves until the Day of Judgement, when God will tell them what they used to manufacture.
5:15. People of the Scripture! My Messenger has come to you; clarifying what you used to keep hidden of the Scripture and who overlooks much ˹of what you changed˺. A light has now come to you from God, along with a Scripture making things clear,
5:16. which God uses to guide to the ways of peace, all who are looking to follow what pleases Him. Leading them from their various shades of darkness into the Light, by His will, and onto one straight path.
The overlooks much is referring to what they changed of the Scripture hence the “a light has come to you and a Scripture to make all these lies clear”. Again from Ibn Kathir(rh):
“So the Prophet explained where they altered, distorted, changed and lied about Allah. He also ignored much of what they changed, since it would not bring about any benefit if it was explained.”
http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=798&Itemid=60
6:91. They did not value God as he deserves to be valued when they said: “God hasn’t revealed to a human being anything.” Ask them: “Who was it then who sent down the Scripture, which Moses brought as a light and guide to the people, which you separated and made into these scrolls, showing some but making sure to hide many? And now you’ve taught something which neither you nor your fathers knew.” ˹Help them out and˺ say: “God…” and then leave them there amusing themselves and running their mouths with useless talk.
Again what is the meaning to this clear verse? From Ibn Kathir(rh):
“you made the Tawrah into separate sheets which you copied from the original and altered, changed and distorted as you wished. You then said, “this is from Allah,” meaning it is in the revealed Book of Allah, when in fact, it is not from Allah.”
http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=989&Itemid=61
And another case of Kenny biting the dust. I guess some things never change.