I am curious about what Islam teaches about how and why evil came into existence?
How does Islam explain how and why death came into existence and does it have any connection to the first sin of Adam and Eve?
How does Islam explain the origin of evil in Satan, Iblis (who was a Jinn who sinned first)?
How does Islam explain all the hominids (the human-like creatures / fossils that apparently lived before Adam and Eve, if the assumption of billions of years explains the existence of so many extinct creatures / fossils)?
Does Islam teach that the flood of Noah was global or local?
Implication from the photo: Look at creation; submit and worship God.
The Bible teaches that also –
Psalm 19:1
Genesis chapters 1-2
Romans chapter 1
Ecclesiastes chapter 3
Isaiah chapter 40
Why don’t people submit to God?
the Bible explains that (sinful nature, original sin; all are sinful and none is able to submit to God unless He works by grace to change the heart of rebellion); but Islam does not seem to have a good explanation for that.
It is a sincere question (s), because I don’t know the full answer to those questions. I know some of it; but not the complete answers to how Islam explains those things.
Just thought you would know easy enough, since you are suppossed to do D’awa دعوه (Invitation to Islam)
Lots of reasons…ignorance, peer-pressure, cultural indifference…shall I go on? You don’t need a ridiculous concept like original sin to explain human evil.
How are they ignorant when according to the implication of the photo, all one has to do is look at creation and know that there is Creator who is worthy of worship and submission – right?
Are you being deliberately dense? It’s very easy to see how being raised in a particular environment can have an affect on a person’s beliefs and actions.
Your explanation, original sin, makes no sense. Like I said, death is necessary where there is life. Natural laws require death so life can continue for as long as God wills.
Let me ask you as I have asked other Christians. Can babies go to hell? Does original sin make babies sinners?
Better question is, what did your profit think happened to all those children since he confirms that his god wiped them all out.
The greenhorn fails to mentjon that the Quran itself confirms that these OT wars were approved by God himself, especially that of the slaughter of the Canaanite as well as Saul’s war against the Amalekites:
O my people! Remember Allah’s favour unto you, how He placed among you prophets, and He made you kings, and gave you that (which) He gave not to any (other) of (His) creatures. O my people! Go into the holy land which Allah hath ordained for you. Turn not in flight, for surely ye turn back as losers: They said: O Moses! Lo! a giant people (dwell) therein and lo! we go not in till they go forth from thence. When they go forth from thence, then we will enter (not till then). Then out spake two of those who feared (their Lord, men) unto whom Allah had been gracious: Enter in upon them by the gate, for if ye enter by it, lo! ye will be victorious. So put your trust (in Allah) if ye are indeed believers. They said: O Moses! We will never enter (the land) while they are in it. So go thou and thy Lord and fight! We will sit here. He said: My Lord! I have control of none but myself and my brother, so distinguish between us and the wrong-doing folk. (Their Lord) said: For this the land will surely be forbidden them for forty years that they will wander in the earth, bewildered. So grieve not over the wrongdoing folk. S. 5:20-26 Pickthall
Here we have Muhammad relating the story of God commanding the Israelites to enter into the promised land and slaughter its inhabitants, without a negative word about the supposed injustice of God in ordering them to do so. And:
Hast thou not Turned thy vision to the Chiefs of the Children of Israel after (the time of) Moses? They said to a prophet (That was) among them: “Appoint for us a king, that we May fight in the cause of God.” He said: “Is it not possible, if ye were commanded to fight, that that ye will not fight?” They said: “How could we refuse to fight in the cause of God, seeing that we were turned out of our homes and our families?” but when they were commanded to fight, they turned back, except a small band among them. But God Has full knowledge of those who do wrong. Their Prophet said to them: “God hath appointed Talut as king over you.” They said: “How can he exercise authority over us when we are better fitted than he to exercise authority, and he is not even gifted, with wealth in abundance?” He said: “God hath Chosen him above you, and hath gifted him abundantly with knowledge and bodily prowess: God Granteth His authority to whom He pleaseth. God careth for all, and He knoweth all things.” And (further) their Prophet said to them: “A Sign of his authority is that there shall come to you the Ark of the covenant, with (an assurance) therein of security from your Lord, and the relics left by the family of Moses and the family of Aaron, carried by angels. In this is a symbol for you if ye indeed have faith.” When Talut set forth with the armies, he said: “God will test you at the stream: if any drinks of its water, He goes not with my army: Only those who taste not of it go with me: A mere sip out of the hand is excused.” but they all drank of it, except a few. When they crossed the river,- He and the faithful ones with him,- they said: “This day We cannot cope with Goliath and his forces.” but those who were convinced that they must meet God, said: “How oft, by God’s will, Hath a small force vanquished a big one? God is with those who steadfastly persevere. When they advanced to meet Goliath and his forces, they prayed: “Our Lord! Pour out constancy on us and make our steps firm: Help us against those that reject faith.” By God’s will they routed them; and David slew Goliath; and God gave him power and wisdom and taught him whatever (else) He willed. And did not God Check one set of people by means of another, the earth would indeed be full of mischief: But God is full of bounty to all the worlds. S. 2:246-251 Y. Ali
The Quran recounts the story of the people of Israel asking the prophet Samuel for a king, Saul’s appointment as a king, Saul’s wars, and David killing Goliath (cf. 1 Samuel 8-17). What is interesting about all this is that even though the Quran presupposes the biblical account of God’s commission to wipe out the Amalekites it nowhere condemns this Divine decree. It does not say that Saul killing women and children was an evil thing or that the Israelites tampered with the story since this isn’t how it happened; nor does it deny that these things did happen. Its very mention in the Quran without any qualification presupposes that the author(s) and/or editor(s) of the Quran had absolutely no problem with these wars since s/he/they believed that God sanctioned them. So why does this pagan stone kisser go against the teachings of his own book (as false as it is) and attack the Holy Bible for something with which the Quran and his false prophet affirmed?
There is more. Note what this next report says regarding Muhammad’s view of the prophet Joshua’s battles against the enemies of God:
Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, “A prophet amongst the prophets carried out a holy military expedition, so he said to his followers, ‘Anyone who has married a woman and wants to consummate the marriage, and has not done so yet, should not accompany me; nor should a man who has built a house but has not completed its roof; nor a man who has sheep or she camels and is waiting for the birth of their young ones.’ So, the prophet carried out the expedition and when he reached that town at the time or nearly at the time of the ‘Asr prayer, he said to the sun, ‘O sun! You are under Allah’s Order and I am under Allah’s Order. O Allah! Stop it (i.e. the sun) from setting.’ It was stopped till Allah made him victorious. Then he collected the booty and the fire came to burn it, but it did not burn it. He said (to his men), ‘Some of you have stolen something from the booty. So one man from every tribe should give me a pledge of allegiance by shaking hands with me.’ (They did so and) the hand of a man got stuck over the hand of their prophet. Then that prophet said (to the man), ‘The theft has been committed by your people. So all the persons of your tribe should give me the pledge of allegiance by shaking hands with me.’ The hands of two or three men got stuck over the hand of their prophet and he said, “You have committed the theft.’ Then they brought a head of gold like the head of a cow and put it there, and the fire came and consumed the booty. The Prophet added: Then Allah saw our weakness and disability, so he made booty legal for us.” (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 53, Number 353 http://searchtruth.com/book_display.php?book=53&translator=1&start=0&number=353)
Here Muhammad conflates several biblical stories, namely, Moses’ instruction in Deuteronomy 20:1-9, and Joshua’s expeditions against Ai and the king of Jerusalem (cf. Joshua 7 and 10). These are the very expeditions where God commanded Joshua and the Israelites to wipe out everything that breathes!
Hence, since the unanimous view of Sunni scholarship is that the hadith collection of al-Bukhari is sound, this means that this is not a narration that Ally can simply brush aside, especially since the Quran itself testifies that part of Muhammad’s mission was to confirm the textual veracity and divine authority of the very scriptures which the Jews and Christians had in their possession during Muhammad’s time. Therefore, Ally has no choice but come to terms with the fact that his own false prophet had absolutely no problems with God’s orders to the Israelites to annihilate everything that breathes, including women, children and livestock. So then why does this wannabe apologist and pseudo-intellect have a problem?
Hey sammie, how are those bunnies coming along? Do you think anyone will read your idiotic rant? It’s better that you spend your time trying to dig your Bible out of the rabbit hole. 🤣😂
I got more for the stone licker. must have forgotten that there is a verse in the Quran which condoned the killing of an innocent young boy:
“So they journeyed on till when they met a young boy; he slew him. Moses said, ‘What! hast thou slain an innocent person without his having slain anyone! Surely, thou hast done a hideous thing’ … ‘And as for the youth, his parents were believers, and we feared lest on growing up he should involve them into trouble through rebellion and disbelief;’” S. 18:74, 80 Sher Ali
Moses’ companion justifies the killing of a young innocent boy on the grounds that the boy may have grown up to be a rebellious unbeliever. Hence, if this pagan neophyte has issues with the Holy Bible he needs to take issue with his own book which condones the killing of a young boy who may have, or may have not, grown up to be a disbeliever. Since Allah had a man kill a boy, which obviously included some kind of violence and pain, would this greenhorn now say that his god is cruel and a bloody murderer?
Furthermore, this text confirms the principle that God can justifiably kill even children on the basis of how they would turn out in the future. God who perfectly knows all things, especially future events, knows that even children grow up to be rebel sinners who defy his commands and acts of mercy.
Moreover, noted Muslim historian al-Tabari stated that the so-called prophet Salih allegedly commanded certain persons of Thamud to kill the children so as to prevent one of them from growing up and killing the she-camel:
According to Hajjaj- Ibn Jurayj: When Salih told the eight evildoers that a boy would be born at whose hands they would be destroyed, they said, “What do you command us?” He said, “I command you to kill THEM” (that is their male children). SO THEY KILLED THEM except one… (The History of Al-Tabari: Prophets and Patriarchs, translated by William M. Brinner [State University of New York Press (SUNY), 1987], Volume II, p. 43; capital emphasis ours)
Ironically, the question this pagan asks of Ken regarding whether the children that his god Allah murders and destroys go to heaven or not is one he needs to answer. Either this pagan is severely ignorant of what his own book teaches or he is a wicked liar like his deity since he does know, but has chosen to deceive non-Muslims. The fact is, there is not a single verse in the Quran which says all infants that die go to Paradise, so we challenge this stone kisser to produce a verse to the contrary.
Furthermore according to the so-called sound ahadith even Muhammad himself didn’t know whether the children of believers or unbelievers would go to hell or not:
‘A’isha, the mother of the believers, said that Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) was called to lead the funeral prayer of a child of the Ansar. I said: Allah’s Messenger, there is happiness for this child who is a bird from the birds of Paradise for it committed no sin nor has he reached the age when one can commit sin. He said: ‘A’isha, per adventure, IT MAY BE OTHERWISE, because God created for Paradise those who are fit for it WHILE THEY WERE YET IN THEIR FATHER’S LOINS and created for Hell those who are to go to Hell. He created them for Hell WHILE THEY WERE YET IN THEIR FATHER’S LOINS. (Sahih Muslim, Book 033, Number 6436)
Abu Huraira reported Allah’s Messenger as saying: No babe is born but upon Fitra. It is his parents who make him a Jew or a Christian or a Polytheist. A person said: Allah’s Messenger, what is your opinion if they were to die before that (before reaching the age of adolescence when they can distinguish between right and wrong)? He said: It is Allah alone Who knows what they would be doing. (Sahih Muslim, Book 033, Number 6426)
Abu Huraira reported from Allah’s Messenger many ahadith and one amongst them is that he is reported to have said: An infant is born according to his (true) nature. It is his parents who make him a Jew, a Christian, just as a she-camel gives birth to its young ones. Do you find any deficiency in their limbs? You cut their ears (i. e. after birth). They (the Companions of the Holy Prophet) said: What is your opinion about him who dies in infancy? Thereupon Allah’s Apostle said: It is Allah alone Who knows best what they would be doing. (Sahih Muslim, Book 033, Number 6428)
Abu Huraira reported that Allah’s Messenger was asked about the children of the polytheists who die young. Thereupon Allah’s Apostle said: It is Allah Who knows what they would be doing. (Sahih Muslim, Book 033, Number 6432)
Muhammad clearly stated that he didn’t know whether the children would go to paradise or to hell on the grounds that Allah may have destined such infants to hell! It seems that this vile pagan and pseudo-intellect knows more than his own prophet did on this subject, or is a wickedly dishonest Muhammadan since he knows the answer to the question but chooses not share it with the rest of us in order to hide the fact of what his own vile wicked profit taught concerning the fate of children whom his god murders and destroys.
now the question this stone smoocher needs to address is, did Allah kill those who didn’t heed the warning or did he also kill infants who had no way to heed the warning as well? If he did kill the infants then this pagan stone kisser is a wicked liar or ignoramus since his own book of porn and ahadith affirm that his fake god does kill infants who had no way of possibly believing or rejecting the message, and therefore were innocent.
In fact, the supposed sound ahadith proclaim that when Allah decides to destroy or kill a people he does so indiscriminately:
Narrated Ibn ‘Umar: Allah’s Apostle said, “If Allah sends punishment upon a nation then it befalls upon the WHOLE population INDISCRIMINATELY and then they will be resurrected (and judged) according to their deeds.” (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 9, Book 88, Number 224)
Here is another English version of this particular narration:
XVIII. When Allah sends down a punishment on a people
6691. Hamza ibn ‘Abdullah ibn ‘Umar related that he heard Ibn ‘Umar say, “The Messenger of Allah said, ‘When Allah sends down a punishment on a people, the punishment will strike ALL THOSE WHO ARE AMONG THEM, and then they will be resurrected commensurate with their actions.’” (Aisha Bewley, The Sahih Collection of al-Bukhari, 96. Book of Trials)
Thus, the pagan’s own false prophet clearly taught that Allah doesn’t spare anyone from the punishment and destruction which he sends upon a people! In fact, his book of porn claim that his demon deliberately makes sure that the death of all these women and children is painful:
Such is the seizing of thy Lord, when He seizes the cities that are evildoing; surely His seizing IS PAINFUL, TERRIBLE. S. 11:102 Arberry
So this fake monotheist is now faced with the Quran stating that the punishment that Allah brings upon the cities, which includes women and children, is deliberately painful and violent. OUCH!
More rants that no one will read? Samantha, Samantha…dearie…I know you’re mad at being humiliated. But that’s because your Bible is a man-made book. It has dug itself into the rabbit hole. Get over it king kong. Your chest thumping will not end your humiliation.
Your pagan Canaanite god required the blood of children. That’s why he ordered their murders. And then to add insult to injury, if those infants are not “elected” they cannot be saved and will be in hell. This is how depraved your religion is! Rabbits chewing the cud, a 6000 year old earth, an old man god, infanticide and hell for babies…that is Christianity. 😮😮
Look how desperate this manworshiping pagan is to justify his god’s genocidal commands. When a natural disaster strikes a country, everyone is affected. This is a far cry from actually commanding an army to kill everyone in it’s path. Imagine the scene when Yahweh’s hordes were stabbing babies to death. Only a trinitarian pagan like Samantha would seek to justify that! Luckily for us, Yahweh doesn’t know basic biology so he can’t be God.
Oh Sammy, Sammy…how are you enjoying the rabbit cud? Your rants just show what a demonic liar for Yahweh that you are. Your god commanded the murder of children but sparing the young girls for sex. This is the demonic god you worship. Now go back to enjoying some rabbit poop. 😂
Listen fatty, you can keep telling the same lies over and over again, it won’t matter. The Qur’an nowhere says anything about the ordering of the murder of kids in those wars, your pornbook does. Your pathetic attempt of trying to justify your pornbook by using the Glorious Qur’an is impressing no one.
As for your attempy at misusing the story about Moses and his traveling companion. This was killing a child with the forknowledge that it would become a wicked person. Does your bible say that all the babies and animals would become wicked? Animals??????
And another thing fatty! If you keep opening that filthy toxic mouth of yours that you use to swallow krabby paties to insult the prophet by calling him a pedophile, let me ask you why was your so called holy god in all his holyness, majesty, greatness, etc squeezed out of a vagina? A fifty plus year old man having intercourse with nine year old within its proper historical enviroment you cannot except but you accept and worship a pervy god (forget about fifty year, he is even outside of time and space) in his entirety being squeezed out of a vagina???
Hi Ken down the line for your questions (I’m going to group the similar ones together) I’ll try to keep this short but if you need further clarification on a topic let me know.
A. How does Islam explain all the hominids (the human-like creatures / fossils that apparently lived before Adam and Eve, if the assumption of billions of years explains the existence of so many extinct creatures / fossils)?
B. Does Islam teach that the flood of Noah was global or local?
Let’s start with these because they’re quicker:
Regarding Noah’s(as) flood, there is a difference of opinion even among classical scholars because the word “ard” can be used as either the land or the earth. Both meanings are used interchangeably in the Qur’an and naturally in Arabic. There’s nothing to decisively go either way on this. Personally, both can be reconciled, mankind didn’t spread out across the Earth yet and were contained in an area. The flood happens, wipes them out them out then mankind continues spreading from Noah’s(as) lineage. Jews later exaggerated the story by saying the whole earth was flooded etc.The flood technically did wipe out humanity just not like how they thought. But at the end of the day God know best these are events of the unseen.
Regarding things happening before humans yes Islam teaches there was creation before humans. First from the Quran:
When God banished Satan the following is exchanged between them:
15:31. … he refused to be with those who bow down.
15:32. I said: “Lucifer, what’s wrong, why do you not bow like the others?”
15:33. He answered: “I was never going to bow to this human being made of some black mud that dried up!””
15:34. I said: “Get out from it. You are an outcast,”
15:35. “and a curse is on you until the Day of Judgement.”
15:36. He said: “My Lord, if that’s the case then give me more time until the Day they’re all raised.”
15:37. I answered: “You are now from THOSE WHO HAVE BEEN GIVEN MORE TIME,”
So there were others who God gave more time to.
Now from the Sahaba’s (Companions of the Prophet(saw)) opinions:
At-Tabari narrated in his Tafseer from Ibn ‘Abbas (may Allah be pleased with him) that he said:
The first ones to dwell on earth were the jinn, and they caused mischief therein, shedding blood and killing one another.
C.I am curious about what Islam teaches about how and why evil came into existence?
D.How does Islam explain how and why death came into existence and does it have any connection to the first sin of Adam and Eve?
E.How does Islam explain the origin of evil in Satan, Iblis (who was a Jinn who sinned first)?
As for death itself God says:
67:1. Blessed is He Whose Hand the Kingdom is in and He will forever have control of all things.
67:2. He’s the One who’s created death and life, so that He can test who’s better in deeds. He is the Almighty, as well as the Constantly Forgiving,
2:155. I will test you with fear, hunger, loss of money, lives, children and fruits; but give good news to those who are patient.
Death is part of testing us and is our cuttoff for our test. God says He created to see which of us will keep striving to do better. We all know we will die and so that’s fuel for us to do the best we can before we meet our Lord. Death has no connection with Adam’s(as) sin in Islam. We generally have a much more positive view about humanity and this incident. From the Qur’an:
2:30. Remember the time when your Lord told the angels: “I am going to APPOINT A DEPUTY ON THE EARTH.” And they said: “You’re going to appoint ones who will spread disorder on the earth and shed blood, while we declare Your perfection and glorify You?” I told them: “I know what you don’t know…”
2:36. But Satan caused them to slip from it and then He expelled them from what they were in. I declared: “All of you get down from here as enemies to one another. In the Earth, there will be a temporary place of rest for you and needed tools until a set deadline.”
2:37. Then at that time Adam embraced some words from his Lord, and so I turned towards him and accepted his repentance:, because I am the one who turns back in love to those who repent and am Forever Merciful…
2:38. I said: “Get down from this place, all of you. And if guidance is given to you from Me, as it no doubt will be, investigate it. Anyone who follows My guidance will never remain in fear and will know no long lasting sorrow.”
Notice God said He was appointing a deputy for the Earth. So we were going to end up here. 2 wisdoms behind God allowing this incident to occur was:
1. To teach mankind that Satan is our enemy.
2. Notice God said Adam “embraced words from his Lord” this means Adam was finally taught the last name he needed to learn which was repentance. God LOVES repentance and that is what makes us superior to the angels (who were asking why would God appoint us) because they have no freewill to disobey God.
Abu Huraira reported Allah’s Messenger (ﷺ) having said:
By Him in Whose Hand is my life, if you were not to commit sin, Allah would sweep you out of existence and He would replace (you by) those people who would commit sin and seek forgiveness from Allah, and He would have pardoned them. https://sunnah.com/muslim/50/13
Anas (RAA) narrated that Allah’s Messenger (ﷺ) said:
“All the sons of Adam are sinners, but the best of sinners are those who repent often.” Related by At·Tirmidhi and Ibn Majah with a strong chain of narrators.
Evil is ultimately from God. However He never directly attributes evil to Himself in the Quran.
113:1. Say: “I surrender myself to the protection of the Lord of the daybreak.”
113:2. “From the evil of what He’s created,”
God allows evil for the good it will ultimately bring. For example, you break your leg and miss your job interview. This is by all definitions a bad thing. However had you left that day you would’ve been robbed and killed. Some of the wisdom of God allowing evil is
1. Believers are rewarded if patient:
Abu Yahya Suhaib bin Sinan (May Allah be pleased with him) reported that:
The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said, “How wonderful is the case of a believer; there is good for him in everything and this applies only to a believer. If prosperity attends him, he expresses gratitude to Allah and that is good for him; and if adversity befalls him, he endures it patiently and that is better for him”.
2. Purifies them of sin
What the Prophet meant by the second part about it being better for him is this.
Narrated Abu Sa`id Al-Khudri and Abu Huraira:
The Prophet (ﷺ) said, “No fatigue, nor disease, nor sorrow, nor sadness, nor hurt, nor distress befalls a Muslim, even if it were the prick he receives from a thorn, but that Allah expiates some of his sins for that.” https://sunnah.com/urn/52930
For the ones doing evil like Satan, some of the wisdoms of God allowing them to do evil is:
1. To test them
2. Punish them in this life
3. Get them to turn back to Him
All of our lives are test. On the Day of Judgement no one will care what happened to them in this life:
Anas bin Malik (May Allah be pleased with him) reported:
Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said, “Among the inmates of Hell, a person who had led the most luxurious life in this world will be brought up on the Day of Resurrection and dipped in the Fire and will be asked: ‘O son of Adam! Did you ever experience any comfort? Did you happen to get any luxury?’ He will reply: ‘By Allah, no, my Rubb.’ And then one of the people of Jannah who had experienced extreme misery in the life of this world will be dipped in Jannah. Then he will be asked: ‘O son of Adam! Did you ever experience any misery? Did you ever encounter difficulty?’ He will say: “By Allah, no my Rubb, I neither experienced misery nor passed through hardship”.
Regarding Satan he is an extension of this test and is being tested. Satan does not rule Hell or anything like that in Islam. He on the contrary will be thrown into it and punished. His mentality is “Well since I’m going to Hell I’m taking everyone with me.” So as before God allows him to do what he does because he is being tested and is making himself worthy of the punishment he will get because he could just repent but refuses to.
@stewjo004 –
Thanks for your detailed explanation.
Qur’an, Surah 2:36. But Satan caused them to slip from it and then He expelled them from what they were in. I declared: “All of you get down from here as enemies to one another.”
Doesn’t that – “all of you get down from here as enemies to one another” imply that the hatred and conflicts and wars, etc. between humans are the result of the sin of Adam (and Eve), that Satan tempted them to do?
Along with Surah 2:30
2:30. Remember the time when your Lord told the angels: “I am going to APPOINT A DEPUTY ON THE EARTH.” And they said: “You’re going to appoint ones who will spread disorder on the earth and shed blood, while we declare Your perfection and glorify You?” I told them: “I know what you don’t know…”
It seems that Allah is saying the whole purpose of man on the earth is for them to spread corruption فسد / disorder and bloodshed on the earth.
Why did Allah order Iblis (a word that is from the Greek word, Diabolos = devil, tempter, slanderer, accuser) to bow down to Adam?
I agree with Ken in that this could be easily said for any other religion. Perhaps the difficulty in seeing this comes about as one studies them it becomes increasingly complex?
That’s not true at all! What we call (Fitrah) is hardly found in the other religions, especially christianity.
Tell me how a person would conclude that there’re three minds who run/create this world?
True, I should clarify what I meant was that any religion can be presented in a simplified way not that they are the same or similarly complicated.
I agree that the understanding of God in Islam is far easier to comprehend than the Christian doctrine of the Trinity (not that this is an indication of which view is the correct one)
“And We already know that your breast is constrained by what they say. So exalt [ Allah ] with praise of your Lord and be of those who prostrate [to Him]. And worship your Lord until there comes to you the certainty (death).” QT
“If we are all born under sin, and salvation is by faith in Christ (which infants do not seem to have the mental capacity to exercise), then it might at first seem that no infants can be saved. We are not, however, aware of anyone who actually takes this position.”
Hmm, I guess he should tell the people who came up with the Westminster Confession of Faith:
“III. Elect infants, dying in infancy, are regenerated, and saved by Christ, through the Spirit, who works when, and where, and how he pleases: so also are all other elect persons who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word.
IV. Others, not elected, although they may be called by the ministry of the Word, and may have some common operations of the Spirit, yet they never truly come unto Christ, and therefore cannot be saved…””
“One reason is that there are apparent examples in Scripture of infants who were saved.”
Notice the word “apparent”. Furthermore, this would apply to the “elect” only. Election is mentioned in the NT:
“To God’s elect, exiles scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, 2 who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father” (1 Peter 1:1-2).
Piper also largely appeals to the Tanakh in answering the question, which is quite typical. When strained to discuss the fate of babies, Christians have to largely ignore the New Testament and settle for the Tanakh.
Piper seems to hold a hybrid view which combines “age of accountability” and “universal election” (the latter at least for infants only). I discussed both theories in my article. Regarding age of accountability, the ex-Christian Yuriy Stasyuk states that it:
“…sets a theological precedent that unequivocally states “faith” and “obedience” are definitely not required to be saved (even though Christian doctrine emphatically states they are). Can infants exercise faith in Jesus? No. Can infants show obedience to Jesus? No. If children are saved without faith or obedience, why does Christian theology explicitly mandate those are the only ways to salvation?” (https://quranandbibleblog.wordpress.com/2018/10/04/do-babies-go-to-hell/)
If you consider all of human history, there have been probably been hundreds of millions of infants that have died before reaching an age of accountability. The Bible claims that faith and obedience are required for salvation, yet if infants will be saved, that would mean that hundreds of millions of people would get into heaven without faith or obedience.
As for universal election (for infants), there are a few problems. First of all, according to Calvinist doctrine (TULIP), salvation is supposed to be “unconditional” (the U). As Stasyuk says:
“…at its core Calvinist doctrine states that God’s election is not based on anything within the human being. The ‘U’ in the theological acronym TULIP, stands for unconditional, meaning there is no condition, or nothing that one can do to become elect. Yet the Universal Election of Infants clearly gives a condition: infancy. If every single infant who dies is part of the elect, it logically follows that being a dead infant is a condition to being one of the elect.””
Thus, the claim in the link you gave is not Biblical:
“Infants, I believe, do not yet have that capacity; and therefore, in God’s inscrutable way, he brings them under the forgiving blood of his Son.”
Similarly, because election is supposed to be unconditional, Piper’s following claim also fails:
“It is important to emphasize that, in our view, God is not saving infants because they are innocent. They are not innocent, but guilty. He is saving them because, although they are sinful, in his mercy he desires that compassion be exercised upon those who are sinful and yet lack the capacity to grasp the truth revealed about Him in nature and to the human heart.”
But that actually violates the concept of election. It would be based on the fact that the infants are infants that they would be saved, instead of it being “unconditional”.
The excuse he gives to get out of this conundrum is the following:
“As Spurgeon pointed out, it is not that God chooses someone to salvation because they are going to die in infancy. Rather, He has ordained that only those who have been chosen for salvation will be allowed to die in infancy.”
Except that there is no evidence in the Bible for this. This is just another pipe dream for Piper. It is nothing but a circular argument. And again, what is the point of the Bible insisting on faith and obedience as the keys to salvation when this rule was abrogated for hundreds of millions of infants?
Piper was so desperate, he started coming up with other ridiculous theories which have no basis in scripture. Isn’t it amazing how “sola scriptura” suddenly gets thrown out the window? Piper claimed:
“It seems to me that the most natural guess would be that babies will grow up in the kingdom (either immediately, or over time) and will by God’s grace come to faith so that their justification is by faith alone just like ours.”
Pure BS, with absolutely NO evidence from the Bible! This is actually similar to what Stasyuk refers to as “postmortem theory”.
I got more for the stone licker. must have forgotten that there is a verse in the Quran which condoned the killing of an innocent young boy:
“So they journeyed on till when they met a young boy; he slew him. Moses said, ‘What! hast thou slain an innocent person without his having slain anyone! Surely, thou hast done a hideous thing’ … ‘And as for the youth, his parents were believers, and we feared lest on growing up he should involve them into trouble through rebellion and disbelief;’” S. 18:74, 80 Sher Ali
Moses’ companion justifies the killing of a young innocent boy on the grounds that the boy may have grown up to be a rebellious unbeliever. Hence, if this pagan neophyte has issues with the Holy Bible he needs to take issue with his own book which condones the killing of a young boy who may have, or may have not, grown up to be a disbeliever. Since Allah had a man kill a boy, which obviously included some kind of violence and pain, would this greenhorn now say that his god is cruel and a bloody murderer?
Furthermore, this text confirms the principle that God can justifiably kill even children on the basis of how they would turn out in the future. God who perfectly knows all things, especially future events, knows that even children grow up to be rebel sinners who defy his commands and acts of mercy.
Moreover, noted Muslim historian al-Tabari stated that the so-called prophet Salih allegedly commanded certain persons of Thamud to kill the children so as to prevent one of them from growing up and killing the she-camel:
According to Hajjaj- Ibn Jurayj: When Salih told the eight evildoers that a boy would be born at whose hands they would be destroyed, they said, “What do you command us?” He said, “I command you to kill THEM” (that is their male children). SO THEY KILLED THEM except one… (The History of Al-Tabari: Prophets and Patriarchs, translated by William M. Brinner [State University of New York Press (SUNY), 1987], Volume II, p. 43; capital emphasis ours)
Ironically, the question this pagan asks of Ken regarding whether the children that his god Allah murders and destroys go to heaven or not is one he needs to answer. Either this pagan is severely ignorant of what his own book teaches or he is a wicked liar like his deity since he does know, but has chosen to deceive non-Muslims. The fact is, there is not a single verse in the Quran which says all infants that die go to Paradise, so we challenge this stone kisser to produce a verse to the contrary.
Furthermore according to the so-called sound ahadith even Muhammad himself didn’t know whether the children of believers or unbelievers would go to hell or not:
‘A’isha, the mother of the believers, said that Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) was called to lead the funeral prayer of a child of the Ansar. I said: Allah’s Messenger, there is happiness for this child who is a bird from the birds of Paradise for it committed no sin nor has he reached the age when one can commit sin. He said: ‘A’isha, per adventure, IT MAY BE OTHERWISE, because God created for Paradise those who are fit for it WHILE THEY WERE YET IN THEIR FATHER’S LOINS and created for Hell those who are to go to Hell. He created them for Hell WHILE THEY WERE YET IN THEIR FATHER’S LOINS. (Sahih Muslim, Book 033, Number 6436)
Abu Huraira reported Allah’s Messenger as saying: No babe is born but upon Fitra. It is his parents who make him a Jew or a Christian or a Polytheist. A person said: Allah’s Messenger, what is your opinion if they were to die before that (before reaching the age of adolescence when they can distinguish between right and wrong)? He said: It is Allah alone Who knows what they would be doing. (Sahih Muslim, Book 033, Number 6426)
Abu Huraira reported from Allah’s Messenger many ahadith and one amongst them is that he is reported to have said: An infant is born according to his (true) nature. It is his parents who make him a Jew, a Christian, just as a she-camel gives birth to its young ones. Do you find any deficiency in their limbs? You cut their ears (i. e. after birth). They (the Companions of the Holy Prophet) said: What is your opinion about him who dies in infancy? Thereupon Allah’s Apostle said: It is Allah alone Who knows best what they would be doing. (Sahih Muslim, Book 033, Number 6428)
Abu Huraira reported that Allah’s Messenger was asked about the children of the polytheists who die young. Thereupon Allah’s Apostle said: It is Allah Who knows what they would be doing. (Sahih Muslim, Book 033, Number 6432)
Muhammad clearly stated that he didn’t know whether the children would go to paradise or to hell on the grounds that Allah may have destined such infants to hell! It seems that this vile pagan and pseudo-intellect knows more than his own prophet did on this subject, or is a wickedly dishonest Muhammadan since he knows the answer to the question but chooses not share it with the rest of us in order to hide the fact of what his own vile wicked profit taught concerning the fate of children whom his god murders and destroys.
now the question this stone smoocher needs to address is, did Allah kill those who didn’t heed the warning or did he also kill infants who had no way to heed the warning as well? If he did kill the infants then this pagan stone kisser is a wicked liar or ignoramus since his own book of porn and ahadith affirm that his fake god does kill infants who had no way of possibly believing or rejecting the message, and therefore were innocent.
In fact, the supposed sound ahadith proclaim that when Allah decides to destroy or kill a people he does so indiscriminately:
Narrated Ibn ‘Umar: Allah’s Apostle said, “If Allah sends punishment upon a nation then it befalls upon the WHOLE population INDISCRIMINATELY and then they will be resurrected (and judged) according to their deeds.” (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 9, Book 88, Number 224)
Here is another English version of this particular narration:
XVIII. When Allah sends down a punishment on a people
6691. Hamza ibn ‘Abdullah ibn ‘Umar related that he heard Ibn ‘Umar say, “The Messenger of Allah said, ‘When Allah sends down a punishment on a people, the punishment will strike ALL THOSE WHO ARE AMONG THEM, and then they will be resurrected commensurate with their actions.’” (Aisha Bewley, The Sahih Collection of al-Bukhari, 96. Book of Trials)
Thus, the pagan’s own false prophet clearly taught that Allah doesn’t spare anyone from the punishment and destruction which he sends upon a people! In fact, his book of porn claim that his demon deliberately makes sure that the death of all these women and children is painful:
Such is the seizing of thy Lord, when He seizes the cities that are evildoing; surely His seizing IS PAINFUL, TERRIBLE. S. 11:102 Arberry
So this fake monotheist is now faced with the Quran stating that the punishment that Allah brings upon the cities, which includes women and children, is deliberately painful and violent. OUCH!
Faiz,
Most of what Sam wrote is just text from the Qur’an and Hadith that shows that the Allah of the Qur’an and Islam approves of the OT texts (Deuteronomy, Joshua, 1 Samuel, etc.) of all the wars and God’s commands to take the promised land, etc. – driving out the Canaanites and Amalekites from the promised land.
If anyone takes the time to read the Qur’an texts and Hadith texts and the argumentation, you, Faiz were defeated in your arguments.
“Faiz,
Most of what Sam wrote is just text from the Qur’an and Hadith that shows that the Allah of the Qur’an and Islam approves of the OT texts (Deuteronomy, Joshua, 1 Samuel, etc.) of all the wars and God’s commands to take the promised land, etc. – driving out the Canaanites and Amalekites from the promised land.
If anyone takes the time to read the Qur’an texts and Hadith texts and the argumentation, you, Faiz were defeated in your arguments.”
LOL Kenny, since you are Samantha’s new bootlicker, I think we can say with confidence that your judgement is compromised (of course, it was compromised anyway but this just makes it worse).
The Islamic texts do not say anything about the mass killing of children, and you idiots should be ashamed that you try so hard to justify such monstrous behavior. The Quran states that the Israelites were told that killing any soul unjustly would be like killing the whole world. The Quran also unequivocally condemns infanticide, so it is ridiculous for you morons to claim otherwise.
You Kenny are an idiot, and the fact that you are Sammy’s new lapdog only proves that further. Now if you would be a good lad and sit on the sidelines while I humiliate your master some more…
Since the vile wicked pagan stone smoocher is trying to hard to avoid the implications of the teachings of his own wicked immoral profit, it seems I am going to have repeat what his antichrist taught. Enjoy!
must have forgotten that there is a verse in the Quran which condoned the killing of an innocent young boy:
“So they journeyed on till when they met a young boy; he slew him. Moses said, ‘What! hast thou slain an innocent person without his having slain anyone! Surely, thou hast done a hideous thing’ … ‘And as for the youth, his parents were believers, and we feared lest on growing up he should involve them into trouble through rebellion and disbelief;’” S. 18:74, 80 Sher Ali
Moses’ companion justifies the killing of a young innocent boy on the grounds that the boy may have grown up to be a rebellious unbeliever. Hence, if this pagan neophyte has issues with the Holy Bible he needs to take issue with his own book which condones the killing of a young boy who may have, or may have not, grown up to be a disbeliever. Since Allah had a man kill a boy, which obviously included some kind of violence and pain, would this greenhorn now say that his god is cruel and a bloody murderer?
Furthermore, this text confirms the principle that God can justifiably kill even children on the basis of how they would turn out in the future. God who perfectly knows all things, especially future events, knows that even children grow up to be rebel sinners who defy his commands and acts of mercy.
Moreover, noted Muslim historian al-Tabari stated that the so-called prophet Salih allegedly commanded certain persons of Thamud to kill the children so as to prevent one of them from growing up and killing the she-camel:
According to Hajjaj- Ibn Jurayj: When Salih told the eight evildoers that a boy would be born at whose hands they would be destroyed, they said, “What do you command us?” He said, “I command you to kill THEM” (that is their male children). SO THEY KILLED THEM except one… (The History of Al-Tabari: Prophets and Patriarchs, translated by William M. Brinner [State University of New York Press (SUNY), 1987], Volume II, p. 43; capital emphasis ours)
Ironically, the question this pagan asks of Ken regarding whether the children that his god Allah murders and destroys go to heaven or not is one he needs to answer. Either this pagan is severely ignorant of what his own book teaches or he is a wicked liar like his deity since he does know, but has chosen to deceive non-Muslims. The fact is, there is not a single verse in the Quran which says all infants that die go to Paradise, so we challenge this stone kisser to produce a verse to the contrary.
Furthermore according to the so-called sound ahadith even Muhammad himself didn’t know whether the children of believers or unbelievers would go to hell or not:
‘A’isha, the mother of the believers, said that Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) was called to lead the funeral prayer of a child of the Ansar. I said: Allah’s Messenger, there is happiness for this child who is a bird from the birds of Paradise for it committed no sin nor has he reached the age when one can commit sin. He said: ‘A’isha, per adventure, IT MAY BE OTHERWISE, because God created for Paradise those who are fit for it WHILE THEY WERE YET IN THEIR FATHER’S LOINS and created for Hell those who are to go to Hell. He created them for Hell WHILE THEY WERE YET IN THEIR FATHER’S LOINS. (Sahih Muslim, Book 033, Number 6436)
Abu Huraira reported Allah’s Messenger as saying: No babe is born but upon Fitra. It is his parents who make him a Jew or a Christian or a Polytheist. A person said: Allah’s Messenger, what is your opinion if they were to die before that (before reaching the age of adolescence when they can distinguish between right and wrong)? He said: It is Allah alone Who knows what they would be doing. (Sahih Muslim, Book 033, Number 6426)
Abu Huraira reported from Allah’s Messenger many ahadith and one amongst them is that he is reported to have said: An infant is born according to his (true) nature. It is his parents who make him a Jew, a Christian, just as a she-camel gives birth to its young ones. Do you find any deficiency in their limbs? You cut their ears (i. e. after birth). They (the Companions of the Holy Prophet) said: What is your opinion about him who dies in infancy? Thereupon Allah’s Apostle said: It is Allah alone Who knows best what they would be doing. (Sahih Muslim, Book 033, Number 6428)
Abu Huraira reported that Allah’s Messenger was asked about the children of the polytheists who die young. Thereupon Allah’s Apostle said: It is Allah Who knows what they would be doing. (Sahih Muslim, Book 033, Number 6432)
Muhammad clearly stated that he didn’t know whether the children would go to paradise or to hell on the grounds that Allah may have destined such infants to hell! It seems that this vile pagan and pseudo-intellect knows more than his own prophet did on this subject, or is a wickedly dishonest Muhammadan since he knows the answer to the question but chooses not share it with the rest of us in order to hide the fact of what his own vile wicked profit taught concerning the fate of children whom his god murders and destroys.
Now the question this stone smoocher needs to address is, did Allah kill those who didn’t heed the warning or did he also kill infants who had no way to heed the warning as well? If he did kill the infants then this pagan stone kisser is a wicked liar or ignoramus since his own book of porn and ahadith affirm that his fake god does kill infants who had no way of possibly believing or rejecting the message, and therefore were innocent.
In fact, the supposed sound ahadith proclaim that when Allah decides to destroy or kill a people he does so indiscriminately:
Narrated Ibn ‘Umar: Allah’s Apostle said, “If Allah sends punishment upon a nation then it befalls upon the WHOLE population INDISCRIMINATELY and then they will be resurrected (and judged) according to their deeds.” (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 9, Book 88, Number 224)
Here is another English version of this particular narration:
XVIII. When Allah sends down a punishment on a people
6691. Hamza ibn ‘Abdullah ibn ‘Umar related that he heard Ibn ‘Umar say, “The Messenger of Allah said, ‘When Allah sends down a punishment on a people, the punishment will strike ALL THOSE WHO ARE AMONG THEM, and then they will be resurrected commensurate with their actions.’” (Aisha Bewley, The Sahih Collection of al-Bukhari, 96. Book of Trials)
Thus, the pagan’s own false prophet clearly taught that Allah doesn’t spare anyone from the punishment and destruction which he sends upon a people! In fact, his book of porn claim that his demon deliberately makes sure that the death of all these women and children is painful:
Such is the seizing of thy Lord, when He seizes the cities that are evildoing; surely His seizing IS PAINFUL, TERRIBLE. S. 11:102 Arberry
So this fake monotheist is now faced with the Quran stating that the punishment that Allah brings upon the cities, which includes women and children, is deliberately painful and violent. OUCH!
Samantha is pissed off! What’s the matter, Canaanite pagan? Being continuously exposed makes you mad? It must be the rabbit cud, Samantha. You need to cut back.
Again, mindlessly repeating the same garbage just shows that you have nothing to add. I already ripped your rant into pieces and all you can do is just repeat the same refuted claims over and over.
This whole time, Shamy has avoided discussing the brutality of his Canaanite god for ordering the murders of babies and then throwing the non-elect among them into hell. It’s no wonder this pagan creature has been running from the darkness in his religion by deflecting to Islam. All trinitarians pagans do this. You guys need a better hobby, perhaps get a pet like a…rabbit? Eh Shamy? 😉
Ken said
//Most of what Sam wrote is just text from the Qur’an and Hadith that shows that the Allah of the Qur’an and Islam approves of the OT texts//
This is called a big fat lie.
You quoted from the Westminster Confession of Faith, paragraph X (ten), no. 3 & 4. So also in the 1689 Second London Baptist Confession of Faith.
That view is the more common view among the Reformed, that some are elect and some are not. (of infants who die young, mentally ill, severe brain damage, etc. people, etc. )
That does not mean that Piper’s view is stupid or “an idiot”, as IMO, he argued for that view in an acceptable way.
Those are both 2 acceptable views.
Dr. Thomas Schreiner also holds the same view that Piper does, and explains it in more detail, theologically:
“You quoted from the Westminster Confession of Faith, paragraph X (ten), no. 3 & 4. So also in the 1689 Second London Baptist Confession of Faith.
That view is the more common view among the Reformed, that some are elect and some are not. (of infants who die young, mentally ill, severe brain damage, etc. people, etc. )
That does not mean that Piper’s view is stupid or “an idiot”, as IMO, he argued for that view in an acceptable way.
Those are both 2 acceptable views.”
Uh, no didn’t. He claimed no one believes that infants can go to hell, which is just a flat out lie. Furthermore, as I already showed, there is no such thing as “universal” election, even for infants. It is just not taught in the NT.
How are they both “acceptable views”? They both cannot be true. Either ALL babies will be saved or only some will be saved. You can’t have it both ways. With selective election, only some will be saved which means that your god will actually burn babies in hell (of course, your god is not real, but I am being hypothetical here).
Since the Christian clowns are trying very hard to avoid discussing the eternal destination of children in the Christian religion, let me repeat my refutation of Kenny and his lying scholars:
Piper seems to hold a hybrid view which combines “age of accountability” and “universal election” (the latter at least for infants only). I discussed both theories in my article. Regarding age of accountability, the ex-Christian Yuriy Stasyuk states that it:
“…sets a theological precedent that unequivocally states “faith” and “obedience” are definitely not required to be saved (even though Christian doctrine emphatically states they are). Can infants exercise faith in Jesus? No. Can infants show obedience to Jesus? No. If children are saved without faith or obedience, why does Christian theology explicitly mandate those are the only ways to salvation?” (https://quranandbibleblog.wordpress.com/2018/10/04/do-babies-go-to-hell/)
If you consider all of human history, there have been probably been hundreds of millions of infants that have died before reaching an age of accountability. The Bible claims that faith and obedience are required for salvation, yet if infants will be saved, that would mean that hundreds of millions of people would get into heaven without faith or obedience.
As for universal election (for infants), there are a few problems. First of all, according to Calvinist doctrine (TULIP), salvation is supposed to be “unconditional” (the U). As Stasyuk says:
“…at its core Calvinist doctrine states that God’s election is not based on anything within the human being. The ‘U’ in the theological acronym TULIP, stands for unconditional, meaning there is no condition, or nothing that one can do to become elect. Yet the Universal Election of Infants clearly gives a condition: infancy. If every single infant who dies is part of the elect, it logically follows that being a dead infant is a condition to being one of the elect.””
Thus, the claim in the link you gave is not Biblical:
“Infants, I believe, do not yet have that capacity; and therefore, in God’s inscrutable way, he brings them under the forgiving blood of his Son.”
Similarly, because election is supposed to be unconditional, Piper’s following claim also fails:
“It is important to emphasize that, in our view, God is not saving infants because they are innocent. They are not innocent, but guilty. He is saving them because, although they are sinful, in his mercy he desires that compassion be exercised upon those who are sinful and yet lack the capacity to grasp the truth revealed about Him in nature and to the human heart.”
But that actually violates the concept of election. It would be based on the fact that the infants are infants that they would be saved, instead of it being “unconditional”.
The excuse he gives to get out of this conundrum is the following:
“As Spurgeon pointed out, it is not that God chooses someone to salvation because they are going to die in infancy. Rather, He has ordained that only those who have been chosen for salvation will be allowed to die in infancy.”
Except that there is no evidence in the Bible for this. This is just another pipe dream for Piper. It is nothing but a circular argument. And again, what is the point of the Bible insisting on faith and obedience as the keys to salvation when this rule was abrogated for hundreds of millions of infants?
Piper was so desperate, he started coming up with other ridiculous theories which have no basis in scripture. Isn’t it amazing how “sola scriptura” suddenly gets thrown out the window? Piper claimed:
“It seems to me that the most natural guess would be that babies will grow up in the kingdom (either immediately, or over time) and will by God’s grace come to faith so that their justification is by faith alone just like ours.”
Pure BS, with absolutely NO evidence from the Bible! This is actually similar to what Stasyuk refers to as “postmortem theory”.
Because this pagan stone smoocher wants to be illiterate like his vile profit, it seems I am going to repost what I shared earlier from the teachings of the antichrist that he worships.
The greenhorn fails to mention that the Quran itself confirms that these OT wars were approved by God himself, especially that of the slaughter of the Canaanite as well as Saul’s war against the Amalekites:
O my people! Remember Allah’s favour unto you, how He placed among you prophets, and He made you kings, and gave you that (which) He gave not to any (other) of (His) creatures. O my people! Go into the holy land which Allah hath ordained for you. Turn not in flight, for surely ye turn back as losers: They said: O Moses! Lo! a giant people (dwell) therein and lo! we go not in till they go forth from thence. When they go forth from thence, then we will enter (not till then). Then out spake two of those who feared (their Lord, men) unto whom Allah had been gracious: Enter in upon them by the gate, for if ye enter by it, lo! ye will be victorious. So put your trust (in Allah) if ye are indeed believers. They said: O Moses! We will never enter (the land) while they are in it. So go thou and thy Lord and fight! We will sit here. He said: My Lord! I have control of none but myself and my brother, so distinguish between us and the wrong-doing folk. (Their Lord) said: For this the land will surely be forbidden them for forty years that they will wander in the earth, bewildered. So grieve not over the wrongdoing folk. S. 5:20-26 Pickthall
Here we have Muhammad relating the story of God commanding the Israelites to enter into the promised land and slaughter its inhabitants, without a negative word about the supposed injustice of God in ordering them to do so. And:
Hast thou not Turned thy vision to the Chiefs of the Children of Israel after (the time of) Moses? They said to a prophet (That was) among them: “Appoint for us a king, that we May fight in the cause of God.” He said: “Is it not possible, if ye were commanded to fight, that that ye will not fight?” They said: “How could we refuse to fight in the cause of God, seeing that we were turned out of our homes and our families?” but when they were commanded to fight, they turned back, except a small band among them. But God Has full knowledge of those who do wrong. Their Prophet said to them: “God hath appointed Talut as king over you.” They said: “How can he exercise authority over us when we are better fitted than he to exercise authority, and he is not even gifted, with wealth in abundance?” He said: “God hath Chosen him above you, and hath gifted him abundantly with knowledge and bodily prowess: God Granteth His authority to whom He pleaseth. God careth for all, and He knoweth all things.” And (further) their Prophet said to them: “A Sign of his authority is that there shall come to you the Ark of the covenant, with (an assurance) therein of security from your Lord, and the relics left by the family of Moses and the family of Aaron, carried by angels. In this is a symbol for you if ye indeed have faith.” When Talut set forth with the armies, he said: “God will test you at the stream: if any drinks of its water, He goes not with my army: Only those who taste not of it go with me: A mere sip out of the hand is excused.” but they all drank of it, except a few. When they crossed the river,- He and the faithful ones with him,- they said: “This day We cannot cope with Goliath and his forces.” but those who were convinced that they must meet God, said: “How oft, by God’s will, Hath a small force vanquished a big one? God is with those who steadfastly persevere. When they advanced to meet Goliath and his forces, they prayed: “Our Lord! Pour out constancy on us and make our steps firm: Help us against those that reject faith.” By God’s will they routed them; and David slew Goliath; and God gave him power and wisdom and taught him whatever (else) He willed. And did not God Check one set of people by means of another, the earth would indeed be full of mischief: But God is full of bounty to all the worlds. S. 2:246-251 Y. Ali
The Quran recounts the story of the people of Israel asking the prophet Samuel for a king, Saul’s appointment as a king, Saul’s wars, and David killing Goliath (cf. 1 Samuel 8-17). What is interesting about all this is that even though the Quran presupposes the biblical account of God’s commission to wipe out the Amalekites it nowhere condemns this Divine decree. It does not say that Saul killing women and children was an evil thing or that the Israelites tampered with the story since this isn’t how it happened; nor does it deny that these things did happen. Its very mention in the Quran without any qualification presupposes that the author(s) and/or editor(s) of the Quran had absolutely no problem with these wars since s/he/they believed that God sanctioned them. So why does this pagan stone kisser go against the teachings of his own book (as false as it is) and attack the Holy Bible for something with which the Quran and his false prophet affirmed?
There is more. Note what this next report says regarding Muhammad’s view of the prophet Joshua’s battles against the enemies of God:
Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, “A prophet amongst the prophets carried out a holy military expedition, so he said to his followers, ‘Anyone who has married a woman and wants to consummate the marriage, and has not done so yet, should not accompany me; nor should a man who has built a house but has not completed its roof; nor a man who has sheep or she camels and is waiting for the birth of their young ones.’ So, the prophet carried out the expedition and when he reached that town at the time or nearly at the time of the ‘Asr prayer, he said to the sun, ‘O sun! You are under Allah’s Order and I am under Allah’s Order. O Allah! Stop it (i.e. the sun) from setting.’ It was stopped till Allah made him victorious. Then he collected the booty and the fire came to burn it, but it did not burn it. He said (to his men), ‘Some of you have stolen something from the booty. So one man from every tribe should give me a pledge of allegiance by shaking hands with me.’ (They did so and) the hand of a man got stuck over the hand of their prophet. Then that prophet said (to the man), ‘The theft has been committed by your people. So all the persons of your tribe should give me the pledge of allegiance by shaking hands with me.’ The hands of two or three men got stuck over the hand of their prophet and he said, “You have committed the theft.’ Then they brought a head of gold like the head of a cow and put it there, and the fire came and consumed the booty. The Prophet added: Then Allah saw our weakness and disability, so he made booty legal for us.” (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 53, Number 353 http://searchtruth.com/book_display.php?book=53&translator=1&start=0&number=353)
Here Muhammad conflates several biblical stories, namely, Moses’ instruction in Deuteronomy 20:1-9, and Joshua’s expeditions against Ai and the king of Jerusalem (cf. Joshua 7 and 10). These are the very expeditions where God commanded Joshua and the Israelites to wipe out everything that breathes!
Hence, since the unanimous view of Sunni scholarship is that the hadith collection of al-Bukhari is sound, this means that this is not a narration that Ally can simply brush aside, especially since the Quran itself testifies that part of Muhammad’s mission was to confirm the textual veracity and divine authority of the very scriptures which the Jews and Christians had in their possession during Muhammad’s time. Therefore, the pagan stone kisser has no choice but come to terms with the fact that his own false prophet had absolutely no problems with God’s orders to the Israelites to annihilate everything that breathes, including women, children and livestock. So then why does this wannabe apologist and pseudo-intellect have a problem?
Already refuted, samantha. Get with the program little girl. Plus, deflecting to Islam doesn’t solve the problem of your evil god and his hell for babies.
Buahahahaha this fat abomanation is copy pasting the idiocy of his articles over and over again. Hey fatty, give proof! No one cares about your wishful thinking.
Trust me he is! That filth is without a doubt one of the most narcissistic, venomus scum I have EVER seen in my life. And I am being literal here. This egomaniac is just raging while he is getting bitchslapped. That’s why I never buy his attempts to come accross as non agressive when he uses things like smiley emotes when he insults us and pretends he is not raging and has the higher ground.
Fatass go back to chewing krabby paties you filthy, ugly loser. You and your pornreligion are getting bitchslapped everytime you come here and try and to spew your filth.
So Shamy if the ‘rationale’ you have articulated here regarding justification for executions decreed by God in Islam aligns with Biblical ‘rationale’ or justification then please kindly remove all nonsense double standard articles about Muhammad and Islam regarding warfare from AI website… Lol…those articles are pointless right!? Lol..
Wasn’t Omar the same murdering pagan who couldn’t uinderstand why your vile profit would smooch and smother a black stone like the murdering pagan he was?
Seeing you want to be illiterate like your profit it’s no wonder you didn’t get why I appealed to your women raping bandit. If the OT wars are evil as you pagans claim then you just managed to bury your profit further down in the hole in gehenna since this means he was a wicked evil illiterate bandit for approving of these wars. So thank you for being too much of an illiterate for not seeing how your arguments decimate your own profit. So lol right back at you, your god and his profit.
Keep helping us shame your profit for all to see. Much appreciated. 😉
Lol Samantha, the only thing you proved was that you are depraved lunatic who makes excuses for his god’s barbarity by lying about other religions. I can understand that you are getting frustrated at being exposed repeatedly but you asked for it. How is that rabbit cud? 😆
Lol..Your a silly deluded confused tri- pagan Sam that will shortly see why you wonder in a maze of error lol… let’s see who decimates who… so are the OT wars evil Shamy ? 😉
…did the preincarnate Jesus, along with his the gods or ‘persons’ of trinity decree, command, authorise the killings and executions during the OT wars Shamy? ☺
During the OT wars when ** “The LORD commanded”** Moses and Joshua to Kill and execute many people… Who commanded the killings Shamy? Lol.. was it Jesus the preincarnate son of god? Or all persons or gods of the trinity Shamy? Lol… ☺
And furthermore Shamy seeing you want to be a misguided tri-pagan like your misguided cohorts from your dubious AI team posting bogus articles about Islam and warfare it’s no wonder you didn’t grasp how you have exposed your double standard deceitful self to our entertainment Lol.. If the wars of Muhammad are evil as you tri- pagans polytheists claim then you just managed to bury your own made up tri-gods in the hole in gehenna since this means they were a wicked evil illiterate gods for approving of these wars. So thank you for being too much of a misguided tri- pagan polytheist for not seeing how your arguments decimate your own double standards, even though Quranandbibleblog has completely annihilated your bogus counter arguments that expose your falsehood and the truth about Islam and warfare..Lol… So lol right back at you, and your mythical tri- gods.
Keep helping us shame your misguided perverted Christology all to see. Much appreciated Shamy👍
Now do the right thing tri- pagan Shamy and remove all the nonsense misconstrued information about Islam, Muhammad and warfare from the dying AI website immediately!☺ that’s an order!
🤣 “So there we go. Samantha is a pathetic loser and ignoramus who has to resort to misquotes of other religions in order to justify the horrors of his own religion. Samantha, you should go chase those rabbits and chew the cud with them. That would probably be a better use of your time”🤣
According to the demon you believe was a prophet, it was your demon god Allah that ordered those killings. I know you’re illiterate so let me try to cure it for you by reposting your profit’s filth:
O my people! Remember Allah’s favour unto you, how He placed among you prophets, and He made you kings, and gave you that (which) He gave not to any (other) of (His) creatures. O my people! Go into the holy land which Allah hath ordained for you. Turn not in flight, for surely ye turn back as losers: They said: O Moses! Lo! a giant people (dwell) therein and lo! we go not in till they go forth from thence. When they go forth from thence, then we will enter (not till then). Then out spake two of those who feared (their Lord, men) unto whom Allah had been gracious: Enter in upon them by the gate, for if ye enter by it, lo! ye will be victorious. So put your trust (in Allah) if ye are indeed believers. They said: O Moses! We will never enter (the land) while they are in it. So go thou and thy Lord and fight! We will sit here. He said: My Lord! I have control of none but myself and my brother, so distinguish between us and the wrong-doing folk. (Their Lord) said: For this the land will surely be forbidden them for forty years that they will wander in the earth, bewildered. So grieve not over the wrongdoing folk. S. 5:20-26 Pickthall
Here we have Muhammad relating the story of God commanding the Israelites to enter into the promised land and slaughter its inhabitants, without a negative word about the supposed injustice of God in ordering them to do so. And:
Hast thou not Turned thy vision to the Chiefs of the Children of Israel after (the time of) Moses? They said to a prophet (That was) among them: “Appoint for us a king, that we May fight in the cause of God.” He said: “Is it not possible, if ye were commanded to fight, that that ye will not fight?” They said: “How could we refuse to fight in the cause of God, seeing that we were turned out of our homes and our families?” but when they were commanded to fight, they turned back, except a small band among them. But God Has full knowledge of those who do wrong. Their Prophet said to them: “God hath appointed Talut as king over you.” They said: “How can he exercise authority over us when we are better fitted than he to exercise authority, and he is not even gifted, with wealth in abundance?” He said: “God hath Chosen him above you, and hath gifted him abundantly with knowledge and bodily prowess: God Granteth His authority to whom He pleaseth. God careth for all, and He knoweth all things.” And (further) their Prophet said to them: “A Sign of his authority is that there shall come to you the Ark of the covenant, with (an assurance) therein of security from your Lord, and the relics left by the family of Moses and the family of Aaron, carried by angels. In this is a symbol for you if ye indeed have faith.” When Talut set forth with the armies, he said: “God will test you at the stream: if any drinks of its water, He goes not with my army: Only those who taste not of it go with me: A mere sip out of the hand is excused.” but they all drank of it, except a few. When they crossed the river,- He and the faithful ones with him,- they said: “This day We cannot cope with Goliath and his forces.” but those who were convinced that they must meet God, said: “How oft, by God’s will, Hath a small force vanquished a big one? God is with those who steadfastly persevere. When they advanced to meet Goliath and his forces, they prayed: “Our Lord! Pour out constancy on us and make our steps firm: Help us against those that reject faith.” By God’s will they routed them; and David slew Goliath; and God gave him power and wisdom and taught him whatever (else) He willed. And did not God Check one set of people by means of another, the earth would indeed be full of mischief: But God is full of bounty to all the worlds. S. 2:246-251 Y. Ali
The Quran recounts the story of the people of Israel asking the prophet Samuel for a king, Saul’s appointment as a king, Saul’s wars, and David killing Goliath (cf. 1 Samuel 8-17). What is interesting about all this is that even though the Quran presupposes the biblical account of God’s commission to wipe out the Amalekites it nowhere condemns this Divine decree. It does not say that Saul killing women and children was an evil thing or that the Israelites tampered with the story since this isn’t how it happened; nor does it deny that these things did happen. Its very mention in the Quran without any qualification presupposes that the author(s) and/or editor(s) of the Quran had absolutely no problem with these wars since s/he/they believed that God sanctioned them. So why does this pagan stone kisser go against the teachings of his own book (as false as it is) and attack the Holy Bible for something with which the Quran and his false prophet affirmed?
There is more. Note what this next report says regarding Muhammad’s view of the prophet Joshua’s battles against the enemies of God:
Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, “A prophet amongst the prophets carried out a holy military expedition, so he said to his followers, ‘Anyone who has married a woman and wants to consummate the marriage, and has not done so yet, should not accompany me; nor should a man who has built a house but has not completed its roof; nor a man who has sheep or she camels and is waiting for the birth of their young ones.’ So, the prophet carried out the expedition and when he reached that town at the time or nearly at the time of the ‘Asr prayer, he said to the sun, ‘O sun! You are under Allah’s Order and I am under Allah’s Order. O Allah! Stop it (i.e. the sun) from setting.’ It was stopped till Allah made him victorious. Then he collected the booty and the fire came to burn it, but it did not burn it. He said (to his men), ‘Some of you have stolen something from the booty. So one man from every tribe should give me a pledge of allegiance by shaking hands with me.’ (They did so and) the hand of a man got stuck over the hand of their prophet. Then that prophet said (to the man), ‘The theft has been committed by your people. So all the persons of your tribe should give me the pledge of allegiance by shaking hands with me.’ The hands of two or three men got stuck over the hand of their prophet and he said, “You have committed the theft.’ Then they brought a head of gold like the head of a cow and put it there, and the fire came and consumed the booty. The Prophet added: Then Allah saw our weakness and disability, so he made booty legal for us.” (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 53, Number 353 http://searchtruth.com/book_display.php?book=53&translator=1&start=0&number=353)
Here Muhammad conflates several biblical stories, namely, Moses’ instruction in Deuteronomy 20:1-9, and Joshua’s expeditions against Ai and the king of Jerusalem (cf. Joshua 7 and 10). These are the very expeditions where God commanded Joshua and the Israelites to wipe out everything that breathes!
Hence, since the unanimous view of Sunni scholarship is that the hadith collection of al-Bukhari is sound, this means that this is not a narration that Ally can simply brush aside, especially since the Quran itself testifies that part of Muhammad’s mission was to confirm the textual veracity and divine authority of the very scriptures which the Jews and Christians had in their possession during Muhammad’s time. Therefore, Ally has no choice but come to terms with the fact that his own false prophet had absolutely no problems with God’s orders to the Israelites to annihilate everything that breathes, including women, children and livestock. So then why does this wannabe apologist and pseudo-intellect have a problem?
Now what don’t you return to licking the black stone like your vile women raping profit used to do.
Lol, all poor Samantha can do is repeat the same garbage in the hopes that some one will take him seriously! You were already smashed on this matter you silly pagan. No where does the Quran or Hadith state that Allah (swt) commanded the killing of babies. Stop conflating your bloodthirsty Canaanite god with the true God. Now go back your eating rabbit cud. 😁
Lol 🤣 oh my goodness!!…tri- pagan entertainment at its best..Lol. so Shamy you have regurgitated the same feeble arguments that dig you further in your hole that have already been dismantled over and over Lol.. now address my questions you tri-pagan polytheist and entertain us further by your self inflicted misguidance and double standards both you and your AI cohorts spread to your detriment … have you removed the bogus and dubious AI articles about Islam and Muhammad regarding warfare Shamy!? Lol… go on Shamy…remove them Lol..👍
LOL Shamy have you lost your mind?? LOL… The Quranic verses you quoted mention nothing about slaughtering women, children animals ” everything that breathes..
from a Quranic perspective there is no need to mention a negative word about the supposed injustice of God as you falsely claim as the supposed injustice is something you are interpreting into the Quranic text or portion of text in such a way that you deceifully introduce your own presuppositions, agendas, or biases into and onto the text Shamy Lol… just as Quranandbibleblog has continuously exposed you over and over Lol.. try again you tri-pagan polytheist…Lol… Have you removed the Idiotic AI articles as requested Shamy ? 😉
Hey Shamy …did the preincarnate son of god Jesus, along with his fellow bandit gods or ‘persons’ of the trinity command the killings and executions of women, children, animals everything that breathes during the OT wars Shamy? 😉
Poor Samantha keeps desperately trying to deflect attention from the Bible’s psychopathic commands of genocide by appealing to Islamic sources. Let us obliterate this loser:
1. First, Surah Al-Baqarah or the hadith quoted never states that Allah ordered the killing of women and children.
Regarding the argument that “this is never condemned in the Qur’an”, it actually is:
On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person – unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land – it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our messengers with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land. (5:32)
“Ibn ‘Abbās said [that the above is meant] in the sense of violating and protecting its [a soul’s] sanctity [respectively]. Our messengers have already come to them, that is, to the Children of Israel, with clear proofs, miracles, but after that many of them still commit excesses in the land, overstepping the bounds through disbelief, KILLING and the like”
This is why Muslims are forbidden to kill indiscriminately:
Sulaiman bin Buraidah reported on his father’s authority The Prophet(ﷺ) said “Fight in the name of Allaah and in the path of Allaah and with him who disbelieves in Allaah fight and do not be treacherous and do not be dishonest about booty and do not deface (in killing) and do not kill a child.” (Abu Dawood Sahih)
‘Abd Allaah bin (mas’ud) said “A woman was found slain in one of the battles of the Apostle of Allaah(ﷺ). The Apostle of Allaah(ﷺ) forbade to kill women and children. (Sunan Abi Dawud 2668) Sahih by Al Abani https://sunnah.com/abudawud/15
“According to a report narrated by al-Bayhaqi in as-Sunan al-Kubra (17934): “Do not kill children or women or old men.” (https://islamqa.info/en/248850)
“O you who have believed, when you go forth [to fight] in the cause of Allah, investigate; and do not say to one who gives you [a greeting of] peace “You are not a believer,” aspiring for the goods of worldly life; for with Allah are many acquisitions. You [yourselves] were like that before; then Allah conferred His favor upon you, so investigate. Indeed Allah is ever, with what you do, Acquainted.” (4:94)
“…the tall man you saw in the garden is (Prophet) Abraham, and the children around him are those who died upon Al-Fitrah (the Islamic Faith of Monotheism).”‘ The narrator added: Some Muslims asked the Prophet (ﷺ) , “O Messenger of Allah! What about the children of Al-Mushrikun (i.e., polytheists, pagans, idolaters, and disbelievers in the Oneness of Allah and in His Messenger Muhammad (ﷺ))?” The Prophet (ﷺ) replied, “And also the children of Al-Mushrikun…”
Regarding the ahadith Samantha quoted, this did cause a difference of opinion among the scholars. However, the scholars who stated that children go to heaven reconciled this by saying this was before their status was revealed to the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), which is he initially remained quiet on the subject. But then their status was revealed in a dream, when he saw the children with Abraham (pbuh).
The quote from Bukhari about raids is out of its context, which is typical of lunatics like Samantha. This has nothing to do with children’s status in the afterlife. The Prophet(saw) is saying that if an enemy is being raided there is no sin if a civilian is accidentally killed. We have embarrassed other trinitarian pagans on this matter in the past as well.
3. Allah’s punishment, Salih(as) and Khidr –
Regarding the argument about Allah’s punishment, Muslims never argue that Allah never causes the death of women and children, so this is just a pathetic strawman. There is a difference between Allah using a natural or supernatural event to destroy a rebellious nation and ordering regular men to stab, club and slit the throats of unarmed and surrendering women and children. Reasonable people would see the difference but trinitarian pagans like Samantha have trouble with this.
The history of Tabari is not a reliable source, as has been explained many times. Samantha knows this already. Notice Tabari doesn’t even quote a chain to this narration and this is not binding on us. Imam Tabari was simply gathering sources and ordering them in his history book even if he doesn’t believe in them.
Regarding Khidr, this was actually a mercy and wisdom for a few reasons:
1. The boy was rescued from Hell by dying young.
2. The parents were rescued from Hell because if he had grown up:
“And as for the boy, his parents were believers, and we feared that he would overburden them by transgression and disbelief. So we intended that their Lord should substitute for them one better than him in purity and nearer to mercy.” (18:80-81)
3. The parents were rewarded for their patience. As noted on blogging theology no one will care what happened to them in this life on the Day of Judgement.
Furthermore, Ibn Abbas explained that this was a one-time exception, since no one knows a person’s future except Allah (swt) alone:
“You have inquired whether the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) used to kill anyone from the children of the polytheists in the war. (You should know that) the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) used not to kill any one of their children, and you (too) should not kill any one of them, except when you knew about them what Khdir had known about the boy whom he killed” (https://sunnah.com/muslim/32/170).
So there we go. Samantha is a pathetic loser and ignoramus who has to resort to misquotes of other religions in order to justify the horrors of his own religion. Samantha, you should go chase those rabbits and chew the cud with them. That would probably be a better use of your time! 😉
Isn’t it incredible how this fat ugly burrito keeps repeating the same bullshit lies over and over again? He KNOWS the Qur’an doesn’t say any of the stuff he desperatly attributes to it. What a loser!
1. Command to Bow
This was like a bow of respect not worship. For example, you know how when someone comes to meet the king they give a bow to him? It’s like that it’s a show of respect that God honored us with. If you’re still confused watch this clip skip to 0:50
2. Spread corruption
I think you accidentally misread. The angels thought what you thought: “Humans are a bunch of jerks who are going to go around killing each other and spreading corruption.” God told them He knows things about us that they don’t.
I skipped this part because I didn’t believe it was relevant and I didn’t want to make my post longer but after God created Adam(as) then shows the angels some stuff. They don’t know what it is but Adam(as) does because he knows the names of everything. After this event, he then sins and is then taught the final thing he needs which is repentance. This will be important in a sec.
3. Enemies to one another:
Yes, you’re correct man, woman and Satan will have hatred towards one another. Men oppress women as second class citizens or use them for sex, then you have women who use men for wealth or even become violent to the “patriarch rule” (i.e. extreme feminist) then you have Satan who just hates humans period because God used us as a means of exposing the hypocrisy in his worship.
However, you forgot the last bit to the verse:
…And if guidance is given to you from Me, as it no doubt will be, investigate it. Anyone who follows My guidance will never remain in fear and will know no long lasting sorrow.” (2:38)
Gods said He wouldn’t just leave us in that state. He is going to send guidance which includes the Scripture and the prophets. Those who follow them will not have to worry about those things in this life or the Next. God never gives things roles without assigning the capacity to fulfill the role. For example, the cow makes milk and so God gave it the ability to perform that role.
The part regarding Adam(as) and the names shows we have the ability to gain knowledge and this allows us to see the guidance God sends. When we follow it we will not spread evil and corruption. When we fail in upholding our duties we repent where we fall short and God is letting us know He still forgives and loves us, so we don’t just give up. These qualities are some of the reasons we were chosen as the Earth’s deputy.If we don’t use these qualities correctly and don’t follow the guidance:
But those who disbelieve calling it lies while denying My signs and revelations, are the friends of the Inferno, who will stay in it forever… (2:39)
I am curious about what Islam teaches about how and why evil came into existence?
How does Islam explain how and why death came into existence and does it have any connection to the first sin of Adam and Eve?
How does Islam explain the origin of evil in Satan, Iblis (who was a Jinn who sinned first)?
How does Islam explain all the hominids (the human-like creatures / fossils that apparently lived before Adam and Eve, if the assumption of billions of years explains the existence of so many extinct creatures / fossils)?
Does Islam teach that the flood of Noah was global or local?
This is a good article about that
http://www.hamzatzortzis.com/is-god-merciful-islams-response-to-evil-suffering/
Implication from the photo: Look at creation; submit and worship God.
The Bible teaches that also –
Psalm 19:1
Genesis chapters 1-2
Romans chapter 1
Ecclesiastes chapter 3
Isaiah chapter 40
Why don’t people submit to God?
the Bible explains that (sinful nature, original sin; all are sinful and none is able to submit to God unless He works by grace to change the heart of rebellion); but Islam does not seem to have a good explanation for that.
well you know best Ken.
I thought “Allah knows best” and that you should be able to explain my questions and do proper D’awa دعوه ?
Ken if i thought you were sincere I would bother.
It is a sincere question (s), because I don’t know the full answer to those questions. I know some of it; but not the complete answers to how Islam explains those things.
Just thought you would know easy enough, since you are suppossed to do D’awa دعوه (Invitation to Islam)
Not convinced. You do not have an open teachable mind Ken.
“Why don’t people submit to God?”
Lots of reasons…ignorance, peer-pressure, cultural indifference…shall I go on? You don’t need a ridiculous concept like original sin to explain human evil.
How are they ignorant when according to the implication of the photo, all one has to do is look at creation and know that there is Creator who is worthy of worship and submission – right?
How does peer pressure control them?
How does cultural indifference sway them?
Are you being deliberately dense? It’s very easy to see how being raised in a particular environment can have an affect on a person’s beliefs and actions.
Your explanation, original sin, makes no sense. Like I said, death is necessary where there is life. Natural laws require death so life can continue for as long as God wills.
Let me ask you as I have asked other Christians. Can babies go to hell? Does original sin make babies sinners?
Good discussion of that issue here. Note the section of John Piper’s view.
https://www.desiringgod.org/articles/what-happens-to-infants-who-die
John Piper’s answer by video:
2 Samuel 12:23 – David’s infant who died at birth – indicates/implies the baby goes to heaven. When David dies, he will go to him, and see him.
23 But now he has died; why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me.”
Yeah, but what about the Amalekite children? Will they be saved after being brutally murdered at the order of Yahweh?
Better question is, what did your profit think happened to all those children since he confirms that his god wiped them all out.
The greenhorn fails to mentjon that the Quran itself confirms that these OT wars were approved by God himself, especially that of the slaughter of the Canaanite as well as Saul’s war against the Amalekites:
O my people! Remember Allah’s favour unto you, how He placed among you prophets, and He made you kings, and gave you that (which) He gave not to any (other) of (His) creatures. O my people! Go into the holy land which Allah hath ordained for you. Turn not in flight, for surely ye turn back as losers: They said: O Moses! Lo! a giant people (dwell) therein and lo! we go not in till they go forth from thence. When they go forth from thence, then we will enter (not till then). Then out spake two of those who feared (their Lord, men) unto whom Allah had been gracious: Enter in upon them by the gate, for if ye enter by it, lo! ye will be victorious. So put your trust (in Allah) if ye are indeed believers. They said: O Moses! We will never enter (the land) while they are in it. So go thou and thy Lord and fight! We will sit here. He said: My Lord! I have control of none but myself and my brother, so distinguish between us and the wrong-doing folk. (Their Lord) said: For this the land will surely be forbidden them for forty years that they will wander in the earth, bewildered. So grieve not over the wrongdoing folk. S. 5:20-26 Pickthall
Here we have Muhammad relating the story of God commanding the Israelites to enter into the promised land and slaughter its inhabitants, without a negative word about the supposed injustice of God in ordering them to do so. And:
Hast thou not Turned thy vision to the Chiefs of the Children of Israel after (the time of) Moses? They said to a prophet (That was) among them: “Appoint for us a king, that we May fight in the cause of God.” He said: “Is it not possible, if ye were commanded to fight, that that ye will not fight?” They said: “How could we refuse to fight in the cause of God, seeing that we were turned out of our homes and our families?” but when they were commanded to fight, they turned back, except a small band among them. But God Has full knowledge of those who do wrong. Their Prophet said to them: “God hath appointed Talut as king over you.” They said: “How can he exercise authority over us when we are better fitted than he to exercise authority, and he is not even gifted, with wealth in abundance?” He said: “God hath Chosen him above you, and hath gifted him abundantly with knowledge and bodily prowess: God Granteth His authority to whom He pleaseth. God careth for all, and He knoweth all things.” And (further) their Prophet said to them: “A Sign of his authority is that there shall come to you the Ark of the covenant, with (an assurance) therein of security from your Lord, and the relics left by the family of Moses and the family of Aaron, carried by angels. In this is a symbol for you if ye indeed have faith.” When Talut set forth with the armies, he said: “God will test you at the stream: if any drinks of its water, He goes not with my army: Only those who taste not of it go with me: A mere sip out of the hand is excused.” but they all drank of it, except a few. When they crossed the river,- He and the faithful ones with him,- they said: “This day We cannot cope with Goliath and his forces.” but those who were convinced that they must meet God, said: “How oft, by God’s will, Hath a small force vanquished a big one? God is with those who steadfastly persevere. When they advanced to meet Goliath and his forces, they prayed: “Our Lord! Pour out constancy on us and make our steps firm: Help us against those that reject faith.” By God’s will they routed them; and David slew Goliath; and God gave him power and wisdom and taught him whatever (else) He willed. And did not God Check one set of people by means of another, the earth would indeed be full of mischief: But God is full of bounty to all the worlds. S. 2:246-251 Y. Ali
The Quran recounts the story of the people of Israel asking the prophet Samuel for a king, Saul’s appointment as a king, Saul’s wars, and David killing Goliath (cf. 1 Samuel 8-17). What is interesting about all this is that even though the Quran presupposes the biblical account of God’s commission to wipe out the Amalekites it nowhere condemns this Divine decree. It does not say that Saul killing women and children was an evil thing or that the Israelites tampered with the story since this isn’t how it happened; nor does it deny that these things did happen. Its very mention in the Quran without any qualification presupposes that the author(s) and/or editor(s) of the Quran had absolutely no problem with these wars since s/he/they believed that God sanctioned them. So why does this pagan stone kisser go against the teachings of his own book (as false as it is) and attack the Holy Bible for something with which the Quran and his false prophet affirmed?
There is more. Note what this next report says regarding Muhammad’s view of the prophet Joshua’s battles against the enemies of God:
Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, “A prophet amongst the prophets carried out a holy military expedition, so he said to his followers, ‘Anyone who has married a woman and wants to consummate the marriage, and has not done so yet, should not accompany me; nor should a man who has built a house but has not completed its roof; nor a man who has sheep or she camels and is waiting for the birth of their young ones.’ So, the prophet carried out the expedition and when he reached that town at the time or nearly at the time of the ‘Asr prayer, he said to the sun, ‘O sun! You are under Allah’s Order and I am under Allah’s Order. O Allah! Stop it (i.e. the sun) from setting.’ It was stopped till Allah made him victorious. Then he collected the booty and the fire came to burn it, but it did not burn it. He said (to his men), ‘Some of you have stolen something from the booty. So one man from every tribe should give me a pledge of allegiance by shaking hands with me.’ (They did so and) the hand of a man got stuck over the hand of their prophet. Then that prophet said (to the man), ‘The theft has been committed by your people. So all the persons of your tribe should give me the pledge of allegiance by shaking hands with me.’ The hands of two or three men got stuck over the hand of their prophet and he said, “You have committed the theft.’ Then they brought a head of gold like the head of a cow and put it there, and the fire came and consumed the booty. The Prophet added: Then Allah saw our weakness and disability, so he made booty legal for us.” (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 53, Number 353 http://searchtruth.com/book_display.php?book=53&translator=1&start=0&number=353)
Here Muhammad conflates several biblical stories, namely, Moses’ instruction in Deuteronomy 20:1-9, and Joshua’s expeditions against Ai and the king of Jerusalem (cf. Joshua 7 and 10). These are the very expeditions where God commanded Joshua and the Israelites to wipe out everything that breathes!
Hence, since the unanimous view of Sunni scholarship is that the hadith collection of al-Bukhari is sound, this means that this is not a narration that Ally can simply brush aside, especially since the Quran itself testifies that part of Muhammad’s mission was to confirm the textual veracity and divine authority of the very scriptures which the Jews and Christians had in their possession during Muhammad’s time. Therefore, Ally has no choice but come to terms with the fact that his own false prophet had absolutely no problems with God’s orders to the Israelites to annihilate everything that breathes, including women, children and livestock. So then why does this wannabe apologist and pseudo-intellect have a problem?
I’m not done with this pagan yet.
Hey sammie, how are those bunnies coming along? Do you think anyone will read your idiotic rant? It’s better that you spend your time trying to dig your Bible out of the rabbit hole. 🤣😂
I know you’ve been running scared, Samantha. But you got to chase that rabbit down that hole. 😉
I got more for the stone licker. must have forgotten that there is a verse in the Quran which condoned the killing of an innocent young boy:
“So they journeyed on till when they met a young boy; he slew him. Moses said, ‘What! hast thou slain an innocent person without his having slain anyone! Surely, thou hast done a hideous thing’ … ‘And as for the youth, his parents were believers, and we feared lest on growing up he should involve them into trouble through rebellion and disbelief;’” S. 18:74, 80 Sher Ali
Moses’ companion justifies the killing of a young innocent boy on the grounds that the boy may have grown up to be a rebellious unbeliever. Hence, if this pagan neophyte has issues with the Holy Bible he needs to take issue with his own book which condones the killing of a young boy who may have, or may have not, grown up to be a disbeliever. Since Allah had a man kill a boy, which obviously included some kind of violence and pain, would this greenhorn now say that his god is cruel and a bloody murderer?
Furthermore, this text confirms the principle that God can justifiably kill even children on the basis of how they would turn out in the future. God who perfectly knows all things, especially future events, knows that even children grow up to be rebel sinners who defy his commands and acts of mercy.
Moreover, noted Muslim historian al-Tabari stated that the so-called prophet Salih allegedly commanded certain persons of Thamud to kill the children so as to prevent one of them from growing up and killing the she-camel:
According to Hajjaj- Ibn Jurayj: When Salih told the eight evildoers that a boy would be born at whose hands they would be destroyed, they said, “What do you command us?” He said, “I command you to kill THEM” (that is their male children). SO THEY KILLED THEM except one… (The History of Al-Tabari: Prophets and Patriarchs, translated by William M. Brinner [State University of New York Press (SUNY), 1987], Volume II, p. 43; capital emphasis ours)
Ironically, the question this pagan asks of Ken regarding whether the children that his god Allah murders and destroys go to heaven or not is one he needs to answer. Either this pagan is severely ignorant of what his own book teaches or he is a wicked liar like his deity since he does know, but has chosen to deceive non-Muslims. The fact is, there is not a single verse in the Quran which says all infants that die go to Paradise, so we challenge this stone kisser to produce a verse to the contrary.
Furthermore according to the so-called sound ahadith even Muhammad himself didn’t know whether the children of believers or unbelievers would go to hell or not:
‘A’isha, the mother of the believers, said that Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) was called to lead the funeral prayer of a child of the Ansar. I said: Allah’s Messenger, there is happiness for this child who is a bird from the birds of Paradise for it committed no sin nor has he reached the age when one can commit sin. He said: ‘A’isha, per adventure, IT MAY BE OTHERWISE, because God created for Paradise those who are fit for it WHILE THEY WERE YET IN THEIR FATHER’S LOINS and created for Hell those who are to go to Hell. He created them for Hell WHILE THEY WERE YET IN THEIR FATHER’S LOINS. (Sahih Muslim, Book 033, Number 6436)
Abu Huraira reported Allah’s Messenger as saying: No babe is born but upon Fitra. It is his parents who make him a Jew or a Christian or a Polytheist. A person said: Allah’s Messenger, what is your opinion if they were to die before that (before reaching the age of adolescence when they can distinguish between right and wrong)? He said: It is Allah alone Who knows what they would be doing. (Sahih Muslim, Book 033, Number 6426)
Abu Huraira reported from Allah’s Messenger many ahadith and one amongst them is that he is reported to have said: An infant is born according to his (true) nature. It is his parents who make him a Jew, a Christian, just as a she-camel gives birth to its young ones. Do you find any deficiency in their limbs? You cut their ears (i. e. after birth). They (the Companions of the Holy Prophet) said: What is your opinion about him who dies in infancy? Thereupon Allah’s Apostle said: It is Allah alone Who knows best what they would be doing. (Sahih Muslim, Book 033, Number 6428)
Abu Huraira reported that Allah’s Messenger was asked about the children of the polytheists who die young. Thereupon Allah’s Apostle said: It is Allah Who knows what they would be doing. (Sahih Muslim, Book 033, Number 6432)
Muhammad clearly stated that he didn’t know whether the children would go to paradise or to hell on the grounds that Allah may have destined such infants to hell! It seems that this vile pagan and pseudo-intellect knows more than his own prophet did on this subject, or is a wickedly dishonest Muhammadan since he knows the answer to the question but chooses not share it with the rest of us in order to hide the fact of what his own vile wicked profit taught concerning the fate of children whom his god murders and destroys.
now the question this stone smoocher needs to address is, did Allah kill those who didn’t heed the warning or did he also kill infants who had no way to heed the warning as well? If he did kill the infants then this pagan stone kisser is a wicked liar or ignoramus since his own book of porn and ahadith affirm that his fake god does kill infants who had no way of possibly believing or rejecting the message, and therefore were innocent.
In fact, the supposed sound ahadith proclaim that when Allah decides to destroy or kill a people he does so indiscriminately:
Narrated Ibn ‘Umar: Allah’s Apostle said, “If Allah sends punishment upon a nation then it befalls upon the WHOLE population INDISCRIMINATELY and then they will be resurrected (and judged) according to their deeds.” (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 9, Book 88, Number 224)
Here is another English version of this particular narration:
XVIII. When Allah sends down a punishment on a people
6691. Hamza ibn ‘Abdullah ibn ‘Umar related that he heard Ibn ‘Umar say, “The Messenger of Allah said, ‘When Allah sends down a punishment on a people, the punishment will strike ALL THOSE WHO ARE AMONG THEM, and then they will be resurrected commensurate with their actions.’” (Aisha Bewley, The Sahih Collection of al-Bukhari, 96. Book of Trials)
Thus, the pagan’s own false prophet clearly taught that Allah doesn’t spare anyone from the punishment and destruction which he sends upon a people! In fact, his book of porn claim that his demon deliberately makes sure that the death of all these women and children is painful:
Such is the seizing of thy Lord, when He seizes the cities that are evildoing; surely His seizing IS PAINFUL, TERRIBLE. S. 11:102 Arberry
So this fake monotheist is now faced with the Quran stating that the punishment that Allah brings upon the cities, which includes women and children, is deliberately painful and violent. OUCH!
More rants that no one will read? Samantha, Samantha…dearie…I know you’re mad at being humiliated. But that’s because your Bible is a man-made book. It has dug itself into the rabbit hole. Get over it king kong. Your chest thumping will not end your humiliation.
Your pagan Canaanite god required the blood of children. That’s why he ordered their murders. And then to add insult to injury, if those infants are not “elected” they cannot be saved and will be in hell. This is how depraved your religion is! Rabbits chewing the cud, a 6000 year old earth, an old man god, infanticide and hell for babies…that is Christianity. 😮😮
Look how desperate this manworshiping pagan is to justify his god’s genocidal commands. When a natural disaster strikes a country, everyone is affected. This is a far cry from actually commanding an army to kill everyone in it’s path. Imagine the scene when Yahweh’s hordes were stabbing babies to death. Only a trinitarian pagan like Samantha would seek to justify that! Luckily for us, Yahweh doesn’t know basic biology so he can’t be God.
I just chased and buried your wicked pedophile, women raping profit down the hole. So keep barking lil girl! 😉
Oh Sammy, Sammy…how are you enjoying the rabbit cud? Your rants just show what a demonic liar for Yahweh that you are. Your god commanded the murder of children but sparing the young girls for sex. This is the demonic god you worship. Now go back to enjoying some rabbit poop. 😂
Listen fatty, you can keep telling the same lies over and over again, it won’t matter. The Qur’an nowhere says anything about the ordering of the murder of kids in those wars, your pornbook does. Your pathetic attempt of trying to justify your pornbook by using the Glorious Qur’an is impressing no one.
As for your attempy at misusing the story about Moses and his traveling companion. This was killing a child with the forknowledge that it would become a wicked person. Does your bible say that all the babies and animals would become wicked? Animals??????
And another thing fatty! If you keep opening that filthy toxic mouth of yours that you use to swallow krabby paties to insult the prophet by calling him a pedophile, let me ask you why was your so called holy god in all his holyness, majesty, greatness, etc squeezed out of a vagina? A fifty plus year old man having intercourse with nine year old within its proper historical enviroment you cannot except but you accept and worship a pervy god (forget about fifty year, he is even outside of time and space) in his entirety being squeezed out of a vagina???
You truly are one sick filth!
Fatty Shamy is an embarrassment to himself and to his Canaanite god. Christians would do well to shun this cud chewer.
It’s when I look at this “creature” I can just see the devil dwelling in that filth.
For sure…
@ Ken
Hi Ken down the line for your questions (I’m going to group the similar ones together) I’ll try to keep this short but if you need further clarification on a topic let me know.
A. How does Islam explain all the hominids (the human-like creatures / fossils that apparently lived before Adam and Eve, if the assumption of billions of years explains the existence of so many extinct creatures / fossils)?
B. Does Islam teach that the flood of Noah was global or local?
Let’s start with these because they’re quicker:
Regarding Noah’s(as) flood, there is a difference of opinion even among classical scholars because the word “ard” can be used as either the land or the earth. Both meanings are used interchangeably in the Qur’an and naturally in Arabic. There’s nothing to decisively go either way on this. Personally, both can be reconciled, mankind didn’t spread out across the Earth yet and were contained in an area. The flood happens, wipes them out them out then mankind continues spreading from Noah’s(as) lineage. Jews later exaggerated the story by saying the whole earth was flooded etc.The flood technically did wipe out humanity just not like how they thought. But at the end of the day God know best these are events of the unseen.
Regarding things happening before humans yes Islam teaches there was creation before humans. First from the Quran:
When God banished Satan the following is exchanged between them:
15:31. … he refused to be with those who bow down.
15:32. I said: “Lucifer, what’s wrong, why do you not bow like the others?”
15:33. He answered: “I was never going to bow to this human being made of some black mud that dried up!””
15:34. I said: “Get out from it. You are an outcast,”
15:35. “and a curse is on you until the Day of Judgement.”
15:36. He said: “My Lord, if that’s the case then give me more time until the Day they’re all raised.”
15:37. I answered: “You are now from THOSE WHO HAVE BEEN GIVEN MORE TIME,”
So there were others who God gave more time to.
Now from the Sahaba’s (Companions of the Prophet(saw)) opinions:
At-Tabari narrated in his Tafseer from Ibn ‘Abbas (may Allah be pleased with him) that he said:
The first ones to dwell on earth were the jinn, and they caused mischief therein, shedding blood and killing one another.
https://islamqa.info/en/answers/72470/life-on-earth-before-adam
C.I am curious about what Islam teaches about how and why evil came into existence?
D.How does Islam explain how and why death came into existence and does it have any connection to the first sin of Adam and Eve?
E.How does Islam explain the origin of evil in Satan, Iblis (who was a Jinn who sinned first)?
As for death itself God says:
67:1. Blessed is He Whose Hand the Kingdom is in and He will forever have control of all things.
67:2. He’s the One who’s created death and life, so that He can test who’s better in deeds. He is the Almighty, as well as the Constantly Forgiving,
2:155. I will test you with fear, hunger, loss of money, lives, children and fruits; but give good news to those who are patient.
Death is part of testing us and is our cuttoff for our test. God says He created to see which of us will keep striving to do better. We all know we will die and so that’s fuel for us to do the best we can before we meet our Lord. Death has no connection with Adam’s(as) sin in Islam. We generally have a much more positive view about humanity and this incident. From the Qur’an:
2:30. Remember the time when your Lord told the angels: “I am going to APPOINT A DEPUTY ON THE EARTH.” And they said: “You’re going to appoint ones who will spread disorder on the earth and shed blood, while we declare Your perfection and glorify You?” I told them: “I know what you don’t know…”
2:36. But Satan caused them to slip from it and then He expelled them from what they were in. I declared: “All of you get down from here as enemies to one another. In the Earth, there will be a temporary place of rest for you and needed tools until a set deadline.”
2:37. Then at that time Adam embraced some words from his Lord, and so I turned towards him and accepted his repentance:, because I am the one who turns back in love to those who repent and am Forever Merciful…
2:38. I said: “Get down from this place, all of you. And if guidance is given to you from Me, as it no doubt will be, investigate it. Anyone who follows My guidance will never remain in fear and will know no long lasting sorrow.”
Notice God said He was appointing a deputy for the Earth. So we were going to end up here. 2 wisdoms behind God allowing this incident to occur was:
1. To teach mankind that Satan is our enemy.
2. Notice God said Adam “embraced words from his Lord” this means Adam was finally taught the last name he needed to learn which was repentance. God LOVES repentance and that is what makes us superior to the angels (who were asking why would God appoint us) because they have no freewill to disobey God.
Abu Huraira reported Allah’s Messenger (ﷺ) having said:
By Him in Whose Hand is my life, if you were not to commit sin, Allah would sweep you out of existence and He would replace (you by) those people who would commit sin and seek forgiveness from Allah, and He would have pardoned them.
https://sunnah.com/muslim/50/13
Anas (RAA) narrated that Allah’s Messenger (ﷺ) said:
“All the sons of Adam are sinners, but the best of sinners are those who repent often.” Related by At·Tirmidhi and Ibn Majah with a strong chain of narrators.
https://sunnah.com/urn/2054390
Finally about Satan and evil.
Evil is ultimately from God. However He never directly attributes evil to Himself in the Quran.
113:1. Say: “I surrender myself to the protection of the Lord of the daybreak.”
113:2. “From the evil of what He’s created,”
God allows evil for the good it will ultimately bring. For example, you break your leg and miss your job interview. This is by all definitions a bad thing. However had you left that day you would’ve been robbed and killed. Some of the wisdom of God allowing evil is
1. Believers are rewarded if patient:
Abu Yahya Suhaib bin Sinan (May Allah be pleased with him) reported that:
The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said, “How wonderful is the case of a believer; there is good for him in everything and this applies only to a believer. If prosperity attends him, he expresses gratitude to Allah and that is good for him; and if adversity befalls him, he endures it patiently and that is better for him”.
https://sunnah.com/riyadussaliheen/1/27
2. Purifies them of sin
What the Prophet meant by the second part about it being better for him is this.
Narrated Abu Sa`id Al-Khudri and Abu Huraira:
The Prophet (ﷺ) said, “No fatigue, nor disease, nor sorrow, nor sadness, nor hurt, nor distress befalls a Muslim, even if it were the prick he receives from a thorn, but that Allah expiates some of his sins for that.”
https://sunnah.com/urn/52930
For the ones doing evil like Satan, some of the wisdoms of God allowing them to do evil is:
1. To test them
2. Punish them in this life
3. Get them to turn back to Him
All of our lives are test. On the Day of Judgement no one will care what happened to them in this life:
Anas bin Malik (May Allah be pleased with him) reported:
Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said, “Among the inmates of Hell, a person who had led the most luxurious life in this world will be brought up on the Day of Resurrection and dipped in the Fire and will be asked: ‘O son of Adam! Did you ever experience any comfort? Did you happen to get any luxury?’ He will reply: ‘By Allah, no, my Rubb.’ And then one of the people of Jannah who had experienced extreme misery in the life of this world will be dipped in Jannah. Then he will be asked: ‘O son of Adam! Did you ever experience any misery? Did you ever encounter difficulty?’ He will say: “By Allah, no my Rubb, I neither experienced misery nor passed through hardship”.
[Muslim].
https://sunnah.com/riyadussaliheen/1/462
Regarding Satan he is an extension of this test and is being tested. Satan does not rule Hell or anything like that in Islam. He on the contrary will be thrown into it and punished. His mentality is “Well since I’m going to Hell I’m taking everyone with me.” So as before God allows him to do what he does because he is being tested and is making himself worthy of the punishment he will get because he could just repent but refuses to.
@stewjo004 –
Thanks for your detailed explanation.
Qur’an, Surah 2:36. But Satan caused them to slip from it and then He expelled them from what they were in. I declared: “All of you get down from here as enemies to one another.”
Doesn’t that – “all of you get down from here as enemies to one another” imply that the hatred and conflicts and wars, etc. between humans are the result of the sin of Adam (and Eve), that Satan tempted them to do?
Along with Surah 2:30
2:30. Remember the time when your Lord told the angels: “I am going to APPOINT A DEPUTY ON THE EARTH.” And they said: “You’re going to appoint ones who will spread disorder on the earth and shed blood, while we declare Your perfection and glorify You?” I told them: “I know what you don’t know…”
It seems that Allah is saying the whole purpose of man on the earth is for them to spread corruption فسد / disorder and bloodshed on the earth.
Why did Allah order Iblis (a word that is from the Greek word, Diabolos = devil, tempter, slanderer, accuser) to bow down to Adam?
I agree with Ken in that this could be easily said for any other religion. Perhaps the difficulty in seeing this comes about as one studies them it becomes increasingly complex?
That’s not true at all! What we call (Fitrah) is hardly found in the other religions, especially christianity.
Tell me how a person would conclude that there’re three minds who run/create this world?
True, I should clarify what I meant was that any religion can be presented in a simplified way not that they are the same or similarly complicated.
I agree that the understanding of God in Islam is far easier to comprehend than the Christian doctrine of the Trinity (not that this is an indication of which view is the correct one)
The photo is very arresting!
“And We already know that your breast is constrained by what they say. So exalt [ Allah ] with praise of your Lord and be of those who prostrate [to Him]. And worship your Lord until there comes to you the certainty (death).” QT
“Good discussion of that issue here. Note the section of John Piper’s view.
https://www.desiringgod.org/articles/what-happens-to-infants-who-die”
Well John Piper is an idiot. Case in point:
“If we are all born under sin, and salvation is by faith in Christ (which infants do not seem to have the mental capacity to exercise), then it might at first seem that no infants can be saved. We are not, however, aware of anyone who actually takes this position.”
Hmm, I guess he should tell the people who came up with the Westminster Confession of Faith:
“III. Elect infants, dying in infancy, are regenerated, and saved by Christ, through the Spirit, who works when, and where, and how he pleases: so also are all other elect persons who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word.
IV. Others, not elected, although they may be called by the ministry of the Word, and may have some common operations of the Spirit, yet they never truly come unto Christ, and therefore cannot be saved…””
“One reason is that there are apparent examples in Scripture of infants who were saved.”
Notice the word “apparent”. Furthermore, this would apply to the “elect” only. Election is mentioned in the NT:
“To God’s elect, exiles scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, 2 who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father” (1 Peter 1:1-2).
Piper also largely appeals to the Tanakh in answering the question, which is quite typical. When strained to discuss the fate of babies, Christians have to largely ignore the New Testament and settle for the Tanakh.
Piper seems to hold a hybrid view which combines “age of accountability” and “universal election” (the latter at least for infants only). I discussed both theories in my article. Regarding age of accountability, the ex-Christian Yuriy Stasyuk states that it:
“…sets a theological precedent that unequivocally states “faith” and “obedience” are definitely not required to be saved (even though Christian doctrine emphatically states they are). Can infants exercise faith in Jesus? No. Can infants show obedience to Jesus? No. If children are saved without faith or obedience, why does Christian theology explicitly mandate those are the only ways to salvation?” (https://quranandbibleblog.wordpress.com/2018/10/04/do-babies-go-to-hell/)
If you consider all of human history, there have been probably been hundreds of millions of infants that have died before reaching an age of accountability. The Bible claims that faith and obedience are required for salvation, yet if infants will be saved, that would mean that hundreds of millions of people would get into heaven without faith or obedience.
As for universal election (for infants), there are a few problems. First of all, according to Calvinist doctrine (TULIP), salvation is supposed to be “unconditional” (the U). As Stasyuk says:
“…at its core Calvinist doctrine states that God’s election is not based on anything within the human being. The ‘U’ in the theological acronym TULIP, stands for unconditional, meaning there is no condition, or nothing that one can do to become elect. Yet the Universal Election of Infants clearly gives a condition: infancy. If every single infant who dies is part of the elect, it logically follows that being a dead infant is a condition to being one of the elect.””
Thus, the claim in the link you gave is not Biblical:
“Infants, I believe, do not yet have that capacity; and therefore, in God’s inscrutable way, he brings them under the forgiving blood of his Son.”
Similarly, because election is supposed to be unconditional, Piper’s following claim also fails:
“It is important to emphasize that, in our view, God is not saving infants because they are innocent. They are not innocent, but guilty. He is saving them because, although they are sinful, in his mercy he desires that compassion be exercised upon those who are sinful and yet lack the capacity to grasp the truth revealed about Him in nature and to the human heart.”
But that actually violates the concept of election. It would be based on the fact that the infants are infants that they would be saved, instead of it being “unconditional”.
The excuse he gives to get out of this conundrum is the following:
“As Spurgeon pointed out, it is not that God chooses someone to salvation because they are going to die in infancy. Rather, He has ordained that only those who have been chosen for salvation will be allowed to die in infancy.”
Except that there is no evidence in the Bible for this. This is just another pipe dream for Piper. It is nothing but a circular argument. And again, what is the point of the Bible insisting on faith and obedience as the keys to salvation when this rule was abrogated for hundreds of millions of infants?
Piper was so desperate, he started coming up with other ridiculous theories which have no basis in scripture. Isn’t it amazing how “sola scriptura” suddenly gets thrown out the window? Piper claimed:
“It seems to me that the most natural guess would be that babies will grow up in the kingdom (either immediately, or over time) and will by God’s grace come to faith so that their justification is by faith alone just like ours.”
Pure BS, with absolutely NO evidence from the Bible! This is actually similar to what Stasyuk refers to as “postmortem theory”.
I got more for the stone licker. must have forgotten that there is a verse in the Quran which condoned the killing of an innocent young boy:
“So they journeyed on till when they met a young boy; he slew him. Moses said, ‘What! hast thou slain an innocent person without his having slain anyone! Surely, thou hast done a hideous thing’ … ‘And as for the youth, his parents were believers, and we feared lest on growing up he should involve them into trouble through rebellion and disbelief;’” S. 18:74, 80 Sher Ali
Moses’ companion justifies the killing of a young innocent boy on the grounds that the boy may have grown up to be a rebellious unbeliever. Hence, if this pagan neophyte has issues with the Holy Bible he needs to take issue with his own book which condones the killing of a young boy who may have, or may have not, grown up to be a disbeliever. Since Allah had a man kill a boy, which obviously included some kind of violence and pain, would this greenhorn now say that his god is cruel and a bloody murderer?
Furthermore, this text confirms the principle that God can justifiably kill even children on the basis of how they would turn out in the future. God who perfectly knows all things, especially future events, knows that even children grow up to be rebel sinners who defy his commands and acts of mercy.
Moreover, noted Muslim historian al-Tabari stated that the so-called prophet Salih allegedly commanded certain persons of Thamud to kill the children so as to prevent one of them from growing up and killing the she-camel:
According to Hajjaj- Ibn Jurayj: When Salih told the eight evildoers that a boy would be born at whose hands they would be destroyed, they said, “What do you command us?” He said, “I command you to kill THEM” (that is their male children). SO THEY KILLED THEM except one… (The History of Al-Tabari: Prophets and Patriarchs, translated by William M. Brinner [State University of New York Press (SUNY), 1987], Volume II, p. 43; capital emphasis ours)
Ironically, the question this pagan asks of Ken regarding whether the children that his god Allah murders and destroys go to heaven or not is one he needs to answer. Either this pagan is severely ignorant of what his own book teaches or he is a wicked liar like his deity since he does know, but has chosen to deceive non-Muslims. The fact is, there is not a single verse in the Quran which says all infants that die go to Paradise, so we challenge this stone kisser to produce a verse to the contrary.
Furthermore according to the so-called sound ahadith even Muhammad himself didn’t know whether the children of believers or unbelievers would go to hell or not:
‘A’isha, the mother of the believers, said that Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) was called to lead the funeral prayer of a child of the Ansar. I said: Allah’s Messenger, there is happiness for this child who is a bird from the birds of Paradise for it committed no sin nor has he reached the age when one can commit sin. He said: ‘A’isha, per adventure, IT MAY BE OTHERWISE, because God created for Paradise those who are fit for it WHILE THEY WERE YET IN THEIR FATHER’S LOINS and created for Hell those who are to go to Hell. He created them for Hell WHILE THEY WERE YET IN THEIR FATHER’S LOINS. (Sahih Muslim, Book 033, Number 6436)
Abu Huraira reported Allah’s Messenger as saying: No babe is born but upon Fitra. It is his parents who make him a Jew or a Christian or a Polytheist. A person said: Allah’s Messenger, what is your opinion if they were to die before that (before reaching the age of adolescence when they can distinguish between right and wrong)? He said: It is Allah alone Who knows what they would be doing. (Sahih Muslim, Book 033, Number 6426)
Abu Huraira reported from Allah’s Messenger many ahadith and one amongst them is that he is reported to have said: An infant is born according to his (true) nature. It is his parents who make him a Jew, a Christian, just as a she-camel gives birth to its young ones. Do you find any deficiency in their limbs? You cut their ears (i. e. after birth). They (the Companions of the Holy Prophet) said: What is your opinion about him who dies in infancy? Thereupon Allah’s Apostle said: It is Allah alone Who knows best what they would be doing. (Sahih Muslim, Book 033, Number 6428)
Abu Huraira reported that Allah’s Messenger was asked about the children of the polytheists who die young. Thereupon Allah’s Apostle said: It is Allah Who knows what they would be doing. (Sahih Muslim, Book 033, Number 6432)
Muhammad clearly stated that he didn’t know whether the children would go to paradise or to hell on the grounds that Allah may have destined such infants to hell! It seems that this vile pagan and pseudo-intellect knows more than his own prophet did on this subject, or is a wickedly dishonest Muhammadan since he knows the answer to the question but chooses not share it with the rest of us in order to hide the fact of what his own vile wicked profit taught concerning the fate of children whom his god murders and destroys.
now the question this stone smoocher needs to address is, did Allah kill those who didn’t heed the warning or did he also kill infants who had no way to heed the warning as well? If he did kill the infants then this pagan stone kisser is a wicked liar or ignoramus since his own book of porn and ahadith affirm that his fake god does kill infants who had no way of possibly believing or rejecting the message, and therefore were innocent.
In fact, the supposed sound ahadith proclaim that when Allah decides to destroy or kill a people he does so indiscriminately:
Narrated Ibn ‘Umar: Allah’s Apostle said, “If Allah sends punishment upon a nation then it befalls upon the WHOLE population INDISCRIMINATELY and then they will be resurrected (and judged) according to their deeds.” (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 9, Book 88, Number 224)
Here is another English version of this particular narration:
XVIII. When Allah sends down a punishment on a people
6691. Hamza ibn ‘Abdullah ibn ‘Umar related that he heard Ibn ‘Umar say, “The Messenger of Allah said, ‘When Allah sends down a punishment on a people, the punishment will strike ALL THOSE WHO ARE AMONG THEM, and then they will be resurrected commensurate with their actions.’” (Aisha Bewley, The Sahih Collection of al-Bukhari, 96. Book of Trials)
Thus, the pagan’s own false prophet clearly taught that Allah doesn’t spare anyone from the punishment and destruction which he sends upon a people! In fact, his book of porn claim that his demon deliberately makes sure that the death of all these women and children is painful:
Such is the seizing of thy Lord, when He seizes the cities that are evildoing; surely His seizing IS PAINFUL, TERRIBLE. S. 11:102 Arberry
So this fake monotheist is now faced with the Quran stating that the punishment that Allah brings upon the cities, which includes women and children, is deliberately painful and violent. OUCH!
Faiz,
Most of what Sam wrote is just text from the Qur’an and Hadith that shows that the Allah of the Qur’an and Islam approves of the OT texts (Deuteronomy, Joshua, 1 Samuel, etc.) of all the wars and God’s commands to take the promised land, etc. – driving out the Canaanites and Amalekites from the promised land.
If anyone takes the time to read the Qur’an texts and Hadith texts and the argumentation, you, Faiz were defeated in your arguments.
“Faiz,
Most of what Sam wrote is just text from the Qur’an and Hadith that shows that the Allah of the Qur’an and Islam approves of the OT texts (Deuteronomy, Joshua, 1 Samuel, etc.) of all the wars and God’s commands to take the promised land, etc. – driving out the Canaanites and Amalekites from the promised land.
If anyone takes the time to read the Qur’an texts and Hadith texts and the argumentation, you, Faiz were defeated in your arguments.”
LOL Kenny, since you are Samantha’s new bootlicker, I think we can say with confidence that your judgement is compromised (of course, it was compromised anyway but this just makes it worse).
The Islamic texts do not say anything about the mass killing of children, and you idiots should be ashamed that you try so hard to justify such monstrous behavior. The Quran states that the Israelites were told that killing any soul unjustly would be like killing the whole world. The Quran also unequivocally condemns infanticide, so it is ridiculous for you morons to claim otherwise.
You Kenny are an idiot, and the fact that you are Sammy’s new lapdog only proves that further. Now if you would be a good lad and sit on the sidelines while I humiliate your master some more…
Since the vile wicked pagan stone smoocher is trying to hard to avoid the implications of the teachings of his own wicked immoral profit, it seems I am going to have repeat what his antichrist taught. Enjoy!
must have forgotten that there is a verse in the Quran which condoned the killing of an innocent young boy:
“So they journeyed on till when they met a young boy; he slew him. Moses said, ‘What! hast thou slain an innocent person without his having slain anyone! Surely, thou hast done a hideous thing’ … ‘And as for the youth, his parents were believers, and we feared lest on growing up he should involve them into trouble through rebellion and disbelief;’” S. 18:74, 80 Sher Ali
Moses’ companion justifies the killing of a young innocent boy on the grounds that the boy may have grown up to be a rebellious unbeliever. Hence, if this pagan neophyte has issues with the Holy Bible he needs to take issue with his own book which condones the killing of a young boy who may have, or may have not, grown up to be a disbeliever. Since Allah had a man kill a boy, which obviously included some kind of violence and pain, would this greenhorn now say that his god is cruel and a bloody murderer?
Furthermore, this text confirms the principle that God can justifiably kill even children on the basis of how they would turn out in the future. God who perfectly knows all things, especially future events, knows that even children grow up to be rebel sinners who defy his commands and acts of mercy.
Moreover, noted Muslim historian al-Tabari stated that the so-called prophet Salih allegedly commanded certain persons of Thamud to kill the children so as to prevent one of them from growing up and killing the she-camel:
According to Hajjaj- Ibn Jurayj: When Salih told the eight evildoers that a boy would be born at whose hands they would be destroyed, they said, “What do you command us?” He said, “I command you to kill THEM” (that is their male children). SO THEY KILLED THEM except one… (The History of Al-Tabari: Prophets and Patriarchs, translated by William M. Brinner [State University of New York Press (SUNY), 1987], Volume II, p. 43; capital emphasis ours)
Ironically, the question this pagan asks of Ken regarding whether the children that his god Allah murders and destroys go to heaven or not is one he needs to answer. Either this pagan is severely ignorant of what his own book teaches or he is a wicked liar like his deity since he does know, but has chosen to deceive non-Muslims. The fact is, there is not a single verse in the Quran which says all infants that die go to Paradise, so we challenge this stone kisser to produce a verse to the contrary.
Furthermore according to the so-called sound ahadith even Muhammad himself didn’t know whether the children of believers or unbelievers would go to hell or not:
‘A’isha, the mother of the believers, said that Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) was called to lead the funeral prayer of a child of the Ansar. I said: Allah’s Messenger, there is happiness for this child who is a bird from the birds of Paradise for it committed no sin nor has he reached the age when one can commit sin. He said: ‘A’isha, per adventure, IT MAY BE OTHERWISE, because God created for Paradise those who are fit for it WHILE THEY WERE YET IN THEIR FATHER’S LOINS and created for Hell those who are to go to Hell. He created them for Hell WHILE THEY WERE YET IN THEIR FATHER’S LOINS. (Sahih Muslim, Book 033, Number 6436)
Abu Huraira reported Allah’s Messenger as saying: No babe is born but upon Fitra. It is his parents who make him a Jew or a Christian or a Polytheist. A person said: Allah’s Messenger, what is your opinion if they were to die before that (before reaching the age of adolescence when they can distinguish between right and wrong)? He said: It is Allah alone Who knows what they would be doing. (Sahih Muslim, Book 033, Number 6426)
Abu Huraira reported from Allah’s Messenger many ahadith and one amongst them is that he is reported to have said: An infant is born according to his (true) nature. It is his parents who make him a Jew, a Christian, just as a she-camel gives birth to its young ones. Do you find any deficiency in their limbs? You cut their ears (i. e. after birth). They (the Companions of the Holy Prophet) said: What is your opinion about him who dies in infancy? Thereupon Allah’s Apostle said: It is Allah alone Who knows best what they would be doing. (Sahih Muslim, Book 033, Number 6428)
Abu Huraira reported that Allah’s Messenger was asked about the children of the polytheists who die young. Thereupon Allah’s Apostle said: It is Allah Who knows what they would be doing. (Sahih Muslim, Book 033, Number 6432)
Muhammad clearly stated that he didn’t know whether the children would go to paradise or to hell on the grounds that Allah may have destined such infants to hell! It seems that this vile pagan and pseudo-intellect knows more than his own prophet did on this subject, or is a wickedly dishonest Muhammadan since he knows the answer to the question but chooses not share it with the rest of us in order to hide the fact of what his own vile wicked profit taught concerning the fate of children whom his god murders and destroys.
Now the question this stone smoocher needs to address is, did Allah kill those who didn’t heed the warning or did he also kill infants who had no way to heed the warning as well? If he did kill the infants then this pagan stone kisser is a wicked liar or ignoramus since his own book of porn and ahadith affirm that his fake god does kill infants who had no way of possibly believing or rejecting the message, and therefore were innocent.
In fact, the supposed sound ahadith proclaim that when Allah decides to destroy or kill a people he does so indiscriminately:
Narrated Ibn ‘Umar: Allah’s Apostle said, “If Allah sends punishment upon a nation then it befalls upon the WHOLE population INDISCRIMINATELY and then they will be resurrected (and judged) according to their deeds.” (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 9, Book 88, Number 224)
Here is another English version of this particular narration:
XVIII. When Allah sends down a punishment on a people
6691. Hamza ibn ‘Abdullah ibn ‘Umar related that he heard Ibn ‘Umar say, “The Messenger of Allah said, ‘When Allah sends down a punishment on a people, the punishment will strike ALL THOSE WHO ARE AMONG THEM, and then they will be resurrected commensurate with their actions.’” (Aisha Bewley, The Sahih Collection of al-Bukhari, 96. Book of Trials)
Thus, the pagan’s own false prophet clearly taught that Allah doesn’t spare anyone from the punishment and destruction which he sends upon a people! In fact, his book of porn claim that his demon deliberately makes sure that the death of all these women and children is painful:
Such is the seizing of thy Lord, when He seizes the cities that are evildoing; surely His seizing IS PAINFUL, TERRIBLE. S. 11:102 Arberry
So this fake monotheist is now faced with the Quran stating that the punishment that Allah brings upon the cities, which includes women and children, is deliberately painful and violent. OUCH!
Samantha is pissed off! What’s the matter, Canaanite pagan? Being continuously exposed makes you mad? It must be the rabbit cud, Samantha. You need to cut back.
Again, mindlessly repeating the same garbage just shows that you have nothing to add. I already ripped your rant into pieces and all you can do is just repeat the same refuted claims over and over.
This whole time, Shamy has avoided discussing the brutality of his Canaanite god for ordering the murders of babies and then throwing the non-elect among them into hell. It’s no wonder this pagan creature has been running from the darkness in his religion by deflecting to Islam. All trinitarians pagans do this. You guys need a better hobby, perhaps get a pet like a…rabbit? Eh Shamy? 😉
Ken said
//Most of what Sam wrote is just text from the Qur’an and Hadith that shows that the Allah of the Qur’an and Islam approves of the OT texts//
This is called a big fat lie.
You quoted from the Westminster Confession of Faith, paragraph X (ten), no. 3 & 4. So also in the 1689 Second London Baptist Confession of Faith.
That view is the more common view among the Reformed, that some are elect and some are not. (of infants who die young, mentally ill, severe brain damage, etc. people, etc. )
That does not mean that Piper’s view is stupid or “an idiot”, as IMO, he argued for that view in an acceptable way.
Those are both 2 acceptable views.
Dr. Thomas Schreiner also holds the same view that Piper does, and explains it in more detail, theologically:
“You quoted from the Westminster Confession of Faith, paragraph X (ten), no. 3 & 4. So also in the 1689 Second London Baptist Confession of Faith.
That view is the more common view among the Reformed, that some are elect and some are not. (of infants who die young, mentally ill, severe brain damage, etc. people, etc. )
That does not mean that Piper’s view is stupid or “an idiot”, as IMO, he argued for that view in an acceptable way.
Those are both 2 acceptable views.”
Uh, no didn’t. He claimed no one believes that infants can go to hell, which is just a flat out lie. Furthermore, as I already showed, there is no such thing as “universal” election, even for infants. It is just not taught in the NT.
How are they both “acceptable views”? They both cannot be true. Either ALL babies will be saved or only some will be saved. You can’t have it both ways. With selective election, only some will be saved which means that your god will actually burn babies in hell (of course, your god is not real, but I am being hypothetical here).
Since the Christian clowns are trying very hard to avoid discussing the eternal destination of children in the Christian religion, let me repeat my refutation of Kenny and his lying scholars:
Piper seems to hold a hybrid view which combines “age of accountability” and “universal election” (the latter at least for infants only). I discussed both theories in my article. Regarding age of accountability, the ex-Christian Yuriy Stasyuk states that it:
“…sets a theological precedent that unequivocally states “faith” and “obedience” are definitely not required to be saved (even though Christian doctrine emphatically states they are). Can infants exercise faith in Jesus? No. Can infants show obedience to Jesus? No. If children are saved without faith or obedience, why does Christian theology explicitly mandate those are the only ways to salvation?” (https://quranandbibleblog.wordpress.com/2018/10/04/do-babies-go-to-hell/)
If you consider all of human history, there have been probably been hundreds of millions of infants that have died before reaching an age of accountability. The Bible claims that faith and obedience are required for salvation, yet if infants will be saved, that would mean that hundreds of millions of people would get into heaven without faith or obedience.
As for universal election (for infants), there are a few problems. First of all, according to Calvinist doctrine (TULIP), salvation is supposed to be “unconditional” (the U). As Stasyuk says:
“…at its core Calvinist doctrine states that God’s election is not based on anything within the human being. The ‘U’ in the theological acronym TULIP, stands for unconditional, meaning there is no condition, or nothing that one can do to become elect. Yet the Universal Election of Infants clearly gives a condition: infancy. If every single infant who dies is part of the elect, it logically follows that being a dead infant is a condition to being one of the elect.””
Thus, the claim in the link you gave is not Biblical:
“Infants, I believe, do not yet have that capacity; and therefore, in God’s inscrutable way, he brings them under the forgiving blood of his Son.”
Similarly, because election is supposed to be unconditional, Piper’s following claim also fails:
“It is important to emphasize that, in our view, God is not saving infants because they are innocent. They are not innocent, but guilty. He is saving them because, although they are sinful, in his mercy he desires that compassion be exercised upon those who are sinful and yet lack the capacity to grasp the truth revealed about Him in nature and to the human heart.”
But that actually violates the concept of election. It would be based on the fact that the infants are infants that they would be saved, instead of it being “unconditional”.
The excuse he gives to get out of this conundrum is the following:
“As Spurgeon pointed out, it is not that God chooses someone to salvation because they are going to die in infancy. Rather, He has ordained that only those who have been chosen for salvation will be allowed to die in infancy.”
Except that there is no evidence in the Bible for this. This is just another pipe dream for Piper. It is nothing but a circular argument. And again, what is the point of the Bible insisting on faith and obedience as the keys to salvation when this rule was abrogated for hundreds of millions of infants?
Piper was so desperate, he started coming up with other ridiculous theories which have no basis in scripture. Isn’t it amazing how “sola scriptura” suddenly gets thrown out the window? Piper claimed:
“It seems to me that the most natural guess would be that babies will grow up in the kingdom (either immediately, or over time) and will by God’s grace come to faith so that their justification is by faith alone just like ours.”
Pure BS, with absolutely NO evidence from the Bible! This is actually similar to what Stasyuk refers to as “postmortem theory”.
Because this pagan stone smoocher wants to be illiterate like his vile profit, it seems I am going to repost what I shared earlier from the teachings of the antichrist that he worships.
The greenhorn fails to mention that the Quran itself confirms that these OT wars were approved by God himself, especially that of the slaughter of the Canaanite as well as Saul’s war against the Amalekites:
O my people! Remember Allah’s favour unto you, how He placed among you prophets, and He made you kings, and gave you that (which) He gave not to any (other) of (His) creatures. O my people! Go into the holy land which Allah hath ordained for you. Turn not in flight, for surely ye turn back as losers: They said: O Moses! Lo! a giant people (dwell) therein and lo! we go not in till they go forth from thence. When they go forth from thence, then we will enter (not till then). Then out spake two of those who feared (their Lord, men) unto whom Allah had been gracious: Enter in upon them by the gate, for if ye enter by it, lo! ye will be victorious. So put your trust (in Allah) if ye are indeed believers. They said: O Moses! We will never enter (the land) while they are in it. So go thou and thy Lord and fight! We will sit here. He said: My Lord! I have control of none but myself and my brother, so distinguish between us and the wrong-doing folk. (Their Lord) said: For this the land will surely be forbidden them for forty years that they will wander in the earth, bewildered. So grieve not over the wrongdoing folk. S. 5:20-26 Pickthall
Here we have Muhammad relating the story of God commanding the Israelites to enter into the promised land and slaughter its inhabitants, without a negative word about the supposed injustice of God in ordering them to do so. And:
Hast thou not Turned thy vision to the Chiefs of the Children of Israel after (the time of) Moses? They said to a prophet (That was) among them: “Appoint for us a king, that we May fight in the cause of God.” He said: “Is it not possible, if ye were commanded to fight, that that ye will not fight?” They said: “How could we refuse to fight in the cause of God, seeing that we were turned out of our homes and our families?” but when they were commanded to fight, they turned back, except a small band among them. But God Has full knowledge of those who do wrong. Their Prophet said to them: “God hath appointed Talut as king over you.” They said: “How can he exercise authority over us when we are better fitted than he to exercise authority, and he is not even gifted, with wealth in abundance?” He said: “God hath Chosen him above you, and hath gifted him abundantly with knowledge and bodily prowess: God Granteth His authority to whom He pleaseth. God careth for all, and He knoweth all things.” And (further) their Prophet said to them: “A Sign of his authority is that there shall come to you the Ark of the covenant, with (an assurance) therein of security from your Lord, and the relics left by the family of Moses and the family of Aaron, carried by angels. In this is a symbol for you if ye indeed have faith.” When Talut set forth with the armies, he said: “God will test you at the stream: if any drinks of its water, He goes not with my army: Only those who taste not of it go with me: A mere sip out of the hand is excused.” but they all drank of it, except a few. When they crossed the river,- He and the faithful ones with him,- they said: “This day We cannot cope with Goliath and his forces.” but those who were convinced that they must meet God, said: “How oft, by God’s will, Hath a small force vanquished a big one? God is with those who steadfastly persevere. When they advanced to meet Goliath and his forces, they prayed: “Our Lord! Pour out constancy on us and make our steps firm: Help us against those that reject faith.” By God’s will they routed them; and David slew Goliath; and God gave him power and wisdom and taught him whatever (else) He willed. And did not God Check one set of people by means of another, the earth would indeed be full of mischief: But God is full of bounty to all the worlds. S. 2:246-251 Y. Ali
The Quran recounts the story of the people of Israel asking the prophet Samuel for a king, Saul’s appointment as a king, Saul’s wars, and David killing Goliath (cf. 1 Samuel 8-17). What is interesting about all this is that even though the Quran presupposes the biblical account of God’s commission to wipe out the Amalekites it nowhere condemns this Divine decree. It does not say that Saul killing women and children was an evil thing or that the Israelites tampered with the story since this isn’t how it happened; nor does it deny that these things did happen. Its very mention in the Quran without any qualification presupposes that the author(s) and/or editor(s) of the Quran had absolutely no problem with these wars since s/he/they believed that God sanctioned them. So why does this pagan stone kisser go against the teachings of his own book (as false as it is) and attack the Holy Bible for something with which the Quran and his false prophet affirmed?
There is more. Note what this next report says regarding Muhammad’s view of the prophet Joshua’s battles against the enemies of God:
Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, “A prophet amongst the prophets carried out a holy military expedition, so he said to his followers, ‘Anyone who has married a woman and wants to consummate the marriage, and has not done so yet, should not accompany me; nor should a man who has built a house but has not completed its roof; nor a man who has sheep or she camels and is waiting for the birth of their young ones.’ So, the prophet carried out the expedition and when he reached that town at the time or nearly at the time of the ‘Asr prayer, he said to the sun, ‘O sun! You are under Allah’s Order and I am under Allah’s Order. O Allah! Stop it (i.e. the sun) from setting.’ It was stopped till Allah made him victorious. Then he collected the booty and the fire came to burn it, but it did not burn it. He said (to his men), ‘Some of you have stolen something from the booty. So one man from every tribe should give me a pledge of allegiance by shaking hands with me.’ (They did so and) the hand of a man got stuck over the hand of their prophet. Then that prophet said (to the man), ‘The theft has been committed by your people. So all the persons of your tribe should give me the pledge of allegiance by shaking hands with me.’ The hands of two or three men got stuck over the hand of their prophet and he said, “You have committed the theft.’ Then they brought a head of gold like the head of a cow and put it there, and the fire came and consumed the booty. The Prophet added: Then Allah saw our weakness and disability, so he made booty legal for us.” (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 53, Number 353 http://searchtruth.com/book_display.php?book=53&translator=1&start=0&number=353)
Here Muhammad conflates several biblical stories, namely, Moses’ instruction in Deuteronomy 20:1-9, and Joshua’s expeditions against Ai and the king of Jerusalem (cf. Joshua 7 and 10). These are the very expeditions where God commanded Joshua and the Israelites to wipe out everything that breathes!
Hence, since the unanimous view of Sunni scholarship is that the hadith collection of al-Bukhari is sound, this means that this is not a narration that Ally can simply brush aside, especially since the Quran itself testifies that part of Muhammad’s mission was to confirm the textual veracity and divine authority of the very scriptures which the Jews and Christians had in their possession during Muhammad’s time. Therefore, the pagan stone kisser has no choice but come to terms with the fact that his own false prophet had absolutely no problems with God’s orders to the Israelites to annihilate everything that breathes, including women, children and livestock. So then why does this wannabe apologist and pseudo-intellect have a problem?
Already refuted, samantha. Get with the program little girl. Plus, deflecting to Islam doesn’t solve the problem of your evil god and his hell for babies.
Buahahahaha this fat abomanation is copy pasting the idiocy of his articles over and over again. Hey fatty, give proof! No one cares about your wishful thinking.
I can just see Shamy angrily boiling in his own filth at the pounding he is taking. That guy must be ready to blow! 😂
Trust me he is! That filth is without a doubt one of the most narcissistic, venomus scum I have EVER seen in my life. And I am being literal here. This egomaniac is just raging while he is getting bitchslapped. That’s why I never buy his attempts to come accross as non agressive when he uses things like smiley emotes when he insults us and pretends he is not raging and has the higher ground.
Fatass go back to chewing krabby paties you filthy, ugly loser. You and your pornreligion are getting bitchslapped everytime you come here and try and to spew your filth.
So Shamy if the ‘rationale’ you have articulated here regarding justification for executions decreed by God in Islam aligns with Biblical ‘rationale’ or justification then please kindly remove all nonsense double standard articles about Muhammad and Islam regarding warfare from AI website… Lol…those articles are pointless right!? Lol..
LOL, poor Samantha keeps shooting herself in the foot! Maybe she can use a rabbit’s foot for good luck? Get it, Sammy? 😉
Wasn’t Omar the same murdering pagan who couldn’t uinderstand why your vile profit would smooch and smother a black stone like the murdering pagan he was?
Seeing you want to be illiterate like your profit it’s no wonder you didn’t get why I appealed to your women raping bandit. If the OT wars are evil as you pagans claim then you just managed to bury your profit further down in the hole in gehenna since this means he was a wicked evil illiterate bandit for approving of these wars. So thank you for being too much of an illiterate for not seeing how your arguments decimate your own profit. So lol right back at you, your god and his profit.
Keep helping us shame your profit for all to see. Much appreciated. 😉
Lol Samantha, the only thing you proved was that you are depraved lunatic who makes excuses for his god’s barbarity by lying about other religions. I can understand that you are getting frustrated at being exposed repeatedly but you asked for it. How is that rabbit cud? 😆
Lol..Your a silly deluded confused tri- pagan Sam that will shortly see why you wonder in a maze of error lol… let’s see who decimates who… so are the OT wars evil Shamy ? 😉
…did the preincarnate Jesus, along with his the gods or ‘persons’ of trinity decree, command, authorise the killings and executions during the OT wars Shamy? ☺
Shamy is getting pounded, while his religion is torn to shreds. 😄
During the OT wars when ** “The LORD commanded”** Moses and Joshua to Kill and execute many people… Who commanded the killings Shamy? Lol.. was it Jesus the preincarnate son of god? Or all persons or gods of the trinity Shamy? Lol… ☺
And furthermore Shamy seeing you want to be a misguided tri-pagan like your misguided cohorts from your dubious AI team posting bogus articles about Islam and warfare it’s no wonder you didn’t grasp how you have exposed your double standard deceitful self to our entertainment Lol.. If the wars of Muhammad are evil as you tri- pagans polytheists claim then you just managed to bury your own made up tri-gods in the hole in gehenna since this means they were a wicked evil illiterate gods for approving of these wars. So thank you for being too much of a misguided tri- pagan polytheist for not seeing how your arguments decimate your own double standards, even though Quranandbibleblog has completely annihilated your bogus counter arguments that expose your falsehood and the truth about Islam and warfare..Lol… So lol right back at you, and your mythical tri- gods.
Keep helping us shame your misguided perverted Christology all to see. Much appreciated Shamy👍
Now do the right thing tri- pagan Shamy and remove all the nonsense misconstrued information about Islam, Muhammad and warfare from the dying AI website immediately!☺ that’s an order!
🤣 “So there we go. Samantha is a pathetic loser and ignoramus who has to resort to misquotes of other religions in order to justify the horrors of his own religion. Samantha, you should go chase those rabbits and chew the cud with them. That would probably be a better use of your time”🤣
According to the demon you believe was a prophet, it was your demon god Allah that ordered those killings. I know you’re illiterate so let me try to cure it for you by reposting your profit’s filth:
O my people! Remember Allah’s favour unto you, how He placed among you prophets, and He made you kings, and gave you that (which) He gave not to any (other) of (His) creatures. O my people! Go into the holy land which Allah hath ordained for you. Turn not in flight, for surely ye turn back as losers: They said: O Moses! Lo! a giant people (dwell) therein and lo! we go not in till they go forth from thence. When they go forth from thence, then we will enter (not till then). Then out spake two of those who feared (their Lord, men) unto whom Allah had been gracious: Enter in upon them by the gate, for if ye enter by it, lo! ye will be victorious. So put your trust (in Allah) if ye are indeed believers. They said: O Moses! We will never enter (the land) while they are in it. So go thou and thy Lord and fight! We will sit here. He said: My Lord! I have control of none but myself and my brother, so distinguish between us and the wrong-doing folk. (Their Lord) said: For this the land will surely be forbidden them for forty years that they will wander in the earth, bewildered. So grieve not over the wrongdoing folk. S. 5:20-26 Pickthall
Here we have Muhammad relating the story of God commanding the Israelites to enter into the promised land and slaughter its inhabitants, without a negative word about the supposed injustice of God in ordering them to do so. And:
Hast thou not Turned thy vision to the Chiefs of the Children of Israel after (the time of) Moses? They said to a prophet (That was) among them: “Appoint for us a king, that we May fight in the cause of God.” He said: “Is it not possible, if ye were commanded to fight, that that ye will not fight?” They said: “How could we refuse to fight in the cause of God, seeing that we were turned out of our homes and our families?” but when they were commanded to fight, they turned back, except a small band among them. But God Has full knowledge of those who do wrong. Their Prophet said to them: “God hath appointed Talut as king over you.” They said: “How can he exercise authority over us when we are better fitted than he to exercise authority, and he is not even gifted, with wealth in abundance?” He said: “God hath Chosen him above you, and hath gifted him abundantly with knowledge and bodily prowess: God Granteth His authority to whom He pleaseth. God careth for all, and He knoweth all things.” And (further) their Prophet said to them: “A Sign of his authority is that there shall come to you the Ark of the covenant, with (an assurance) therein of security from your Lord, and the relics left by the family of Moses and the family of Aaron, carried by angels. In this is a symbol for you if ye indeed have faith.” When Talut set forth with the armies, he said: “God will test you at the stream: if any drinks of its water, He goes not with my army: Only those who taste not of it go with me: A mere sip out of the hand is excused.” but they all drank of it, except a few. When they crossed the river,- He and the faithful ones with him,- they said: “This day We cannot cope with Goliath and his forces.” but those who were convinced that they must meet God, said: “How oft, by God’s will, Hath a small force vanquished a big one? God is with those who steadfastly persevere. When they advanced to meet Goliath and his forces, they prayed: “Our Lord! Pour out constancy on us and make our steps firm: Help us against those that reject faith.” By God’s will they routed them; and David slew Goliath; and God gave him power and wisdom and taught him whatever (else) He willed. And did not God Check one set of people by means of another, the earth would indeed be full of mischief: But God is full of bounty to all the worlds. S. 2:246-251 Y. Ali
The Quran recounts the story of the people of Israel asking the prophet Samuel for a king, Saul’s appointment as a king, Saul’s wars, and David killing Goliath (cf. 1 Samuel 8-17). What is interesting about all this is that even though the Quran presupposes the biblical account of God’s commission to wipe out the Amalekites it nowhere condemns this Divine decree. It does not say that Saul killing women and children was an evil thing or that the Israelites tampered with the story since this isn’t how it happened; nor does it deny that these things did happen. Its very mention in the Quran without any qualification presupposes that the author(s) and/or editor(s) of the Quran had absolutely no problem with these wars since s/he/they believed that God sanctioned them. So why does this pagan stone kisser go against the teachings of his own book (as false as it is) and attack the Holy Bible for something with which the Quran and his false prophet affirmed?
There is more. Note what this next report says regarding Muhammad’s view of the prophet Joshua’s battles against the enemies of God:
Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, “A prophet amongst the prophets carried out a holy military expedition, so he said to his followers, ‘Anyone who has married a woman and wants to consummate the marriage, and has not done so yet, should not accompany me; nor should a man who has built a house but has not completed its roof; nor a man who has sheep or she camels and is waiting for the birth of their young ones.’ So, the prophet carried out the expedition and when he reached that town at the time or nearly at the time of the ‘Asr prayer, he said to the sun, ‘O sun! You are under Allah’s Order and I am under Allah’s Order. O Allah! Stop it (i.e. the sun) from setting.’ It was stopped till Allah made him victorious. Then he collected the booty and the fire came to burn it, but it did not burn it. He said (to his men), ‘Some of you have stolen something from the booty. So one man from every tribe should give me a pledge of allegiance by shaking hands with me.’ (They did so and) the hand of a man got stuck over the hand of their prophet. Then that prophet said (to the man), ‘The theft has been committed by your people. So all the persons of your tribe should give me the pledge of allegiance by shaking hands with me.’ The hands of two or three men got stuck over the hand of their prophet and he said, “You have committed the theft.’ Then they brought a head of gold like the head of a cow and put it there, and the fire came and consumed the booty. The Prophet added: Then Allah saw our weakness and disability, so he made booty legal for us.” (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 53, Number 353 http://searchtruth.com/book_display.php?book=53&translator=1&start=0&number=353)
Here Muhammad conflates several biblical stories, namely, Moses’ instruction in Deuteronomy 20:1-9, and Joshua’s expeditions against Ai and the king of Jerusalem (cf. Joshua 7 and 10). These are the very expeditions where God commanded Joshua and the Israelites to wipe out everything that breathes!
Hence, since the unanimous view of Sunni scholarship is that the hadith collection of al-Bukhari is sound, this means that this is not a narration that Ally can simply brush aside, especially since the Quran itself testifies that part of Muhammad’s mission was to confirm the textual veracity and divine authority of the very scriptures which the Jews and Christians had in their possession during Muhammad’s time. Therefore, Ally has no choice but come to terms with the fact that his own false prophet had absolutely no problems with God’s orders to the Israelites to annihilate everything that breathes, including women, children and livestock. So then why does this wannabe apologist and pseudo-intellect have a problem?
Now what don’t you return to licking the black stone like your vile women raping profit used to do.
Lol, all poor Samantha can do is repeat the same garbage in the hopes that some one will take him seriously! You were already smashed on this matter you silly pagan. No where does the Quran or Hadith state that Allah (swt) commanded the killing of babies. Stop conflating your bloodthirsty Canaanite god with the true God. Now go back your eating rabbit cud. 😁
Lol 🤣 oh my goodness!!…tri- pagan entertainment at its best..Lol. so Shamy you have regurgitated the same feeble arguments that dig you further in your hole that have already been dismantled over and over Lol.. now address my questions you tri-pagan polytheist and entertain us further by your self inflicted misguidance and double standards both you and your AI cohorts spread to your detriment … have you removed the bogus and dubious AI articles about Islam and Muhammad regarding warfare Shamy!? Lol… go on Shamy…remove them Lol..👍
LOL Shamy have you lost your mind?? LOL… The Quranic verses you quoted mention nothing about slaughtering women, children animals ” everything that breathes..
from a Quranic perspective there is no need to mention a negative word about the supposed injustice of God as you falsely claim as the supposed injustice is something you are interpreting into the Quranic text or portion of text in such a way that you deceifully introduce your own presuppositions, agendas, or biases into and onto the text Shamy Lol… just as Quranandbibleblog has continuously exposed you over and over Lol.. try again you tri-pagan polytheist…Lol… Have you removed the Idiotic AI articles as requested Shamy ? 😉
Hey Shamy …did the preincarnate son of god Jesus, along with his fellow bandit gods or ‘persons’ of the trinity command the killings and executions of women, children, animals everything that breathes during the OT wars Shamy? 😉
Poor Samantha keeps desperately trying to deflect attention from the Bible’s psychopathic commands of genocide by appealing to Islamic sources. Let us obliterate this loser:
1. First, Surah Al-Baqarah or the hadith quoted never states that Allah ordered the killing of women and children.
Regarding the argument that “this is never condemned in the Qur’an”, it actually is:
On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person – unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land – it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our messengers with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land. (5:32)
“Ibn ‘Abbās said [that the above is meant] in the sense of violating and protecting its [a soul’s] sanctity [respectively]. Our messengers have already come to them, that is, to the Children of Israel, with clear proofs, miracles, but after that many of them still commit excesses in the land, overstepping the bounds through disbelief, KILLING and the like”
https://www.altafsir.com/Books/Al_Jalalain_Eng.pdf
This is why Muslims are forbidden to kill indiscriminately:
Sulaiman bin Buraidah reported on his father’s authority The Prophet(ﷺ) said “Fight in the name of Allaah and in the path of Allaah and with him who disbelieves in Allaah fight and do not be treacherous and do not be dishonest about booty and do not deface (in killing) and do not kill a child.” (Abu Dawood Sahih)
‘Abd Allaah bin (mas’ud) said “A woman was found slain in one of the battles of the Apostle of Allaah(ﷺ). The Apostle of Allaah(ﷺ) forbade to kill women and children. (Sunan Abi Dawud 2668) Sahih by Al Abani
https://sunnah.com/abudawud/15
“According to a report narrated by al-Bayhaqi in as-Sunan al-Kubra (17934): “Do not kill children or women or old men.” (https://islamqa.info/en/248850)
“O you who have believed, when you go forth [to fight] in the cause of Allah, investigate; and do not say to one who gives you [a greeting of] peace “You are not a believer,” aspiring for the goods of worldly life; for with Allah are many acquisitions. You [yourselves] were like that before; then Allah conferred His favor upon you, so investigate. Indeed Allah is ever, with what you do, Acquainted.” (4:94)
2. Children go to heaven in Islam:
From my article:
https://quranandbibleblog.wordpress.com/2018/08/19/horrible-christian-answers-will-babies-and-children-burn-in-hell-answer-i-dont-know/
“…the tall man you saw in the garden is (Prophet) Abraham, and the children around him are those who died upon Al-Fitrah (the Islamic Faith of Monotheism).”‘ The narrator added: Some Muslims asked the Prophet (ﷺ) , “O Messenger of Allah! What about the children of Al-Mushrikun (i.e., polytheists, pagans, idolaters, and disbelievers in the Oneness of Allah and in His Messenger Muhammad (ﷺ))?” The Prophet (ﷺ) replied, “And also the children of Al-Mushrikun…”
Regarding the ahadith Samantha quoted, this did cause a difference of opinion among the scholars. However, the scholars who stated that children go to heaven reconciled this by saying this was before their status was revealed to the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), which is he initially remained quiet on the subject. But then their status was revealed in a dream, when he saw the children with Abraham (pbuh).
The quote from Bukhari about raids is out of its context, which is typical of lunatics like Samantha. This has nothing to do with children’s status in the afterlife. The Prophet(saw) is saying that if an enemy is being raided there is no sin if a civilian is accidentally killed. We have embarrassed other trinitarian pagans on this matter in the past as well.
3. Allah’s punishment, Salih(as) and Khidr –
Regarding the argument about Allah’s punishment, Muslims never argue that Allah never causes the death of women and children, so this is just a pathetic strawman. There is a difference between Allah using a natural or supernatural event to destroy a rebellious nation and ordering regular men to stab, club and slit the throats of unarmed and surrendering women and children. Reasonable people would see the difference but trinitarian pagans like Samantha have trouble with this.
The history of Tabari is not a reliable source, as has been explained many times. Samantha knows this already. Notice Tabari doesn’t even quote a chain to this narration and this is not binding on us. Imam Tabari was simply gathering sources and ordering them in his history book even if he doesn’t believe in them.
Regarding Khidr, this was actually a mercy and wisdom for a few reasons:
1. The boy was rescued from Hell by dying young.
2. The parents were rescued from Hell because if he had grown up:
“And as for the boy, his parents were believers, and we feared that he would overburden them by transgression and disbelief. So we intended that their Lord should substitute for them one better than him in purity and nearer to mercy.” (18:80-81)
3. The parents were rewarded for their patience. As noted on blogging theology no one will care what happened to them in this life on the Day of Judgement.
Furthermore, Ibn Abbas explained that this was a one-time exception, since no one knows a person’s future except Allah (swt) alone:
“You have inquired whether the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) used to kill anyone from the children of the polytheists in the war. (You should know that) the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) used not to kill any one of their children, and you (too) should not kill any one of them, except when you knew about them what Khdir had known about the boy whom he killed” (https://sunnah.com/muslim/32/170).
So there we go. Samantha is a pathetic loser and ignoramus who has to resort to misquotes of other religions in order to justify the horrors of his own religion. Samantha, you should go chase those rabbits and chew the cud with them. That would probably be a better use of your time! 😉
Isn’t it incredible how this fat ugly burrito keeps repeating the same bullshit lies over and over again? He KNOWS the Qur’an doesn’t say any of the stuff he desperatly attributes to it. What a loser!
Lol, and his little bootlicker cheerleaders like Kenny swallow his lies. What a pathetic bunch of losers!
@ Ken
1. Command to Bow
This was like a bow of respect not worship. For example, you know how when someone comes to meet the king they give a bow to him? It’s like that it’s a show of respect that God honored us with. If you’re still confused watch this clip skip to 0:50
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2YHl_0P2EJ4
2. Spread corruption
I think you accidentally misread. The angels thought what you thought: “Humans are a bunch of jerks who are going to go around killing each other and spreading corruption.” God told them He knows things about us that they don’t.
I skipped this part because I didn’t believe it was relevant and I didn’t want to make my post longer but after God created Adam(as) then shows the angels some stuff. They don’t know what it is but Adam(as) does because he knows the names of everything. After this event, he then sins and is then taught the final thing he needs which is repentance. This will be important in a sec.
3. Enemies to one another:
Yes, you’re correct man, woman and Satan will have hatred towards one another. Men oppress women as second class citizens or use them for sex, then you have women who use men for wealth or even become violent to the “patriarch rule” (i.e. extreme feminist) then you have Satan who just hates humans period because God used us as a means of exposing the hypocrisy in his worship.
However, you forgot the last bit to the verse:
…And if guidance is given to you from Me, as it no doubt will be, investigate it. Anyone who follows My guidance will never remain in fear and will know no long lasting sorrow.” (2:38)
Gods said He wouldn’t just leave us in that state. He is going to send guidance which includes the Scripture and the prophets. Those who follow them will not have to worry about those things in this life or the Next. God never gives things roles without assigning the capacity to fulfill the role. For example, the cow makes milk and so God gave it the ability to perform that role.
The part regarding Adam(as) and the names shows we have the ability to gain knowledge and this allows us to see the guidance God sends. When we follow it we will not spread evil and corruption. When we fail in upholding our duties we repent where we fall short and God is letting us know He still forgives and loves us, so we don’t just give up. These qualities are some of the reasons we were chosen as the Earth’s deputy.If we don’t use these qualities correctly and don’t follow the guidance:
But those who disbelieve calling it lies while denying My signs and revelations, are the friends of the Inferno, who will stay in it forever… (2:39)
Sam is like the pig which sh**s then it enjoys eating his s**t.
So he chews the cud too! 🤣
It seems Fatty Shamy and his bootlicker Kenny have both run away!
Good discussion and concrete answers to the questions asked.