LOL, so you didn’t even know which hadith he was quoting and yet you magically knew the Prophet Muhammad’s definition of “neighbor”?
Let Ignoramus’ education begin anew:
“It was narrated from Anas bin Malik that: “The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said: ‘None of you truly believes until he loves for his brother” or he said “for his neighbor, what he loves for himself.”” (Ibn Majah)
“Anas (RAA) narrated that the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said:
“By Him in Whose Hand my soul is, a slave of Allah does not truly believe till he wishes for his neighbor what he wishes for himself.”” (Bulugh Al-Maram)
“Mujahid narrated: “Abdullah bin Amr had a sheep slaughtered for his family, so when he came he said: ‘Have you given some to our neighbor, the Jew? Have you given some to our neighbor, the Jew? I heard the Messenger of Allah saying: ‘Jibril continued to advise me about (treating) the neighbors so (kindly and politely), that I thought he would order me (from Allah) to make them heirs.”” (Tirmidhi)
I’m just going to add to the point and give the sources for your points so there’s no dispute:
Neighbor is inclusive:
Mujahid narrated:
“Abdullah bin Amr had a sheep slaughtered for his family, so when he came he said: ‘Have you given some to our neighbor, THE JEW? Have you given some to our neighbor, THE JEW? I heard the Messenger of Allah saying: ‘Jibril continued to advise me about (treating) the neighbors so (kindly and politely), that I thought he would order me (from Allah) to make them heirs.” https://sunnah.com/tirmidhi/27/49
Al-Qurtubi (may Allah have mercy on him) said:
I say: based on that, kind treatment of neighbours is enjoined and is recommended, whether they are MUSLIM OR NOT. And this is the RIGHT THING TO DO. Kind treatment may be in the sense of helping or it may be in the sense of being kind, refraining from annoyance and standing by them. Al-Bukhaari narrated from ‘Aa’ishah that the Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) said: “Jibreel kept urging me to treat neighbours kindly until I thought that he would make them heirs.” And it was narrated from Abu Shurayh that the Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) said: “By Allah, he does not believe; by Allah, he does not believe; by Allah, he does not believe.” It was said: O Messenger of Allah, who is that? He said: “The one whose neighbour is not safe from his annoyance.” This is general in meaning and applies to all neighbours, and the Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) affirmed that the neighbour should not be annoyed by swearing three times and stating that the one who annoys his neighbour is not a believer in the complete sense. So the believer should avoid annoying his neighbour and refrain from doing what Allah and His Messenger have forbidden; he should strive to do that which pleases Him and encourage others to do likewise.
Serve God and equate none in worship with Him. Be good to your parents, relatives, orphans, the needy, your neighbors who are family as well as the ones who are strangers, the friend by your side and to slaves. God has no love for those who think they’re better than others or brags about what they think they themselves have achieved. (4:36)
This is a general principle in Islam:
Abu Hurayra reported that the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, “I was sent to perfect good character.” https://sunnah.com/urn/2202730
Let’s be honest here, you knew you were reaching when you wrote that. Being good to your neighbor doesn’t mean being a fool. God says
60:8. God has not forbidden you from being kind and acting justly towards those who did not go to war with you over religion, nor kicked you out of your homes because loves those who implement justice.
60:9. God has only forbidden you in regards to those who fought against you on account of your faith, and have driven you out of your homes or helped and supported in your banishment. Whoever makes friends with them, are the ones doing wrong.
You’re confusing two different principles. You can be cordial and respectful to someone who has a different religion. That’s cool God says we can’t force anyone towards the truth, this doesn’t mean that person is not wrong and if they died wouldn’t be fuel for Hell.
This is like for example Jesus(as) and the Pharisees:
29Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the monuments of the righteous. 30And you say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partners with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ 31So you testify against yourselves that you are the sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32Fill up, then, the measure of the sin of your fathers. 33You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape the sentence of hell?
Are the Pharisee not his neighbor according to the definition given? However, they were wrong on religious values (in this case hypocrisy).
Moving on the Jews are not monotheist and do several forms of idolatry and blasphemy it’s just not as obvious as Christendom. The Jews:
1. Take their Rabbis as gods
9:31.They take their rabbis and their pastors as their lords instead of God, as well as Christ, the son of Mary. But they were commanded to serve only one God; because none have the right to be worshipped and obeyed but Him. And He is far above the allegations they connect to Him.
Examples:
A. Pretty much all the Talmud.
B. Pretty much any Targum
C. When God clearly says something is permissible or impermissible they will blindly follow what the Rabbis say.
2. Take angels for gods
3:80. He would never order you to take angels or prophets for lords. Would he command you to be disbelievers after you’ve submitted yourself to God?
Examples:
Azael
but the goat on which the lot fell for Azazel shall be presented alive before the LORD to make atonement over it, that it may be sent away into the wilderness to Azazel. (Leviticus 16:10)
3. Reject Jesus(as) and Muhammad (saw) as prophets sent to them
4:150. Those who deny God and His Prophets, wishing to separate God from His prophets, say: “We believe in some but not in others…” seeking a middle way,
4:151. are in truth disbelievers and I have prepared a degrading punishment for them.
4:152. Those who believe in God and His Messengers, do not discriminate against any of them…
This means if you reject one prophet you reject ALL of God’s prophets.
4. Give God attributes of His creation
Examples:
A. God Rested
2And by the seventh day God had finished the work He had been doing; so on that day He rested from all His work. (Genesis 2:2)
B. God Regretted
The Lord regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled. (Genesis 6:6)
5. Changed their books and taught things their ancestors never knew
Examples:
A. All of the above
B. JEDP theory and the Torah’s compilation
C. “‘How can you say, “We are wise, for we have the law (Torah) of the LORD,” when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely? (Jeremiah 8:8)
D. All the examples here: http://www.manyprophetsonemessage.com/2014/05/14/the-corruption-of-the-torah/
All of these are reasons for a warner being sent to them. Same as how previous prophets were sent to warn them.
Ignoramus, do you enjoy being exposed as an idiot? Jews continued to live in Arabia even after the Prophet died.
Also, some of the Jews in Arabia had heretical beliefs like Ezra being the son of God. And of course, all Jews rejected Jesus (pbuh). That is why they needed to be warned as well.
There is no proof that the Jews that Mohammed went to were actually doctrinally compromised in any way. And if so why should a Bedouin arab stick his nose in? None of his business.
The unnecessary conflict arose and was continued until it developed in to a war because Mohammed would not back away and leave them in peace after they rejected his claims to be a prophet.
Actually, there is plenty of proof, just as we have plenty of proof that you are a clown who belongs in the circus.
If the claim about the Jews saying that Ezra was the son of God was untrue, it would not make sense to make that accusation only to have the Jews deny it.
The conflict arose when the Jews began to cooperate with the pagans, in violation of their treaty with Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). This was a far cry from what happened to the Gibeonites. They had heard of the mass killings of other city-states and sought to make a treaty with Joshua while pretending they were from a far away place. You can’t blame them for using such deception, but when they were discovered, their punishment was to become slaves. What a deal, huh?
You’re entire argument is weird from a number of angles:
1. Not a prophet’s business
Uhhh…where did you read that? A prophet’s job is to correct the people. For example:
A. Why was it Jesus(as) business that the Jews were selling sacrifices in the Temple?
B. Why was it Elijah’s business that the Jews decided to worship Baal? (Where is the freedom of religion?)
C. Why is it Joshuah’s(as) buisness that the Canaanites are in the Holy Land? (Move your feet lose your seat)
We can keep doing this all day. if someone speaks for God the people have to listen. To not do so is a form of idolatry because your rejecting Gods message for something and thus put it above God.
2. No proof of doctrine incompatibility
Note I listed other things besides this but again where did you read that? Islam opposes many Jewish beliefs here are a few examples:
A. God being anthropomorphic
B. Use of magic
C. The status of Jesus(as)
D. Saint and tomb worship
E. Angel worship
F. Who’s included in the Covenant
G. Are they the Chosen People and is their race superior to everyone
H. Did they change the Torah and was the Torah everlasting
I. The number of prophets and their character
3. War with the Jews
They violated their treaties (which is a big no-no btw). Even the Qur’an accuses them of that:
I’ve revealed to you verses of clear evidence, which none would deny except the defiant who are full of corruption. Is it not, that every time they’ve made a promise, some of them threw it away carelessly? No, rather it’s most of them never even believed in it sincerely to begin with. (2:99-100)
Yeah poor them. Literally, an entire Chapter is dedicated to this incident and they’re betrayal I’ll just leave some highlights:
59:3. …had God not decreed banishment for them, He would’ve punished them in the worldly life. ˹But˺ the punishment of the Fire awaits in the Next.
59:4. This is due to the fact that they opposed God and His Messenger at every turn; and whoever opposes God should know that God is stern in Retribution.
59:11. Didn’t you see the hypocrites saying to their brothers, among the People of the Scripture who are disbelievers: “If you’re driven out, we’ll go forth with you, and we will never obey anyone in ˹anything that˺ concerns you. And if you’re fought against, we’ll help you.” God testifies that they’re utter liars.
59:12. If they’re driven out, they will not leave with them, and if they’re fought, they will not aid them. And if they were to aid them, they will turn their backs ˹running away to˺, so they’ll never be victorious.
59:13. Why? This is due to the fact that you’re a greater cause of terror in their hearts than God because they’re people who don’t understand.
59:14. They will not fight against you if you’re united except in fortified cities or from behind walls. Their wars and conflicts among themselves are intense, you think they’re united; but in actuality their hearts are divided. This is due to the fact that they’re people who refuse to apply their intellect
Ignoramus has no self-respect. They guy is willing to betray his own mangod just to make the Bani Qurayza and other Jewish tribes appear innocent. It’s pathetic! These Christians have sold their souls because of their stubborn Islamophobia.
“If the claim about the Jews saying that Ezra was the son of God was untrue, it would not make sense to make that accusation only to have the Jews deny it.”
More likely the Jews spun a yarn to make fun of Mohammed and expose his ignorance of the OT and he fell for it.
“1. Not a prophet’s business
Uhhh…where did you read that? A prophet’s job is to correct the people. For example:”
I don’t think they got beyond testing his claims. Aren’t you putting the cart before the horse?
As for breaking the treaty it could not demand the Jews to give up their right to self determination and to deny their beliefs which is what Mohammed was demanding, as a self-appointed prophet, and why they had to withdraw from it to defend themselves.
“More likely the Jews spun a yarn to make fun of Mohammed and expose his ignorance of the OT and he fell for it.”
What a pathetic respons! That is it???
Firstly the Qur’an says “The Jews say, “Ezra is the son of Allah “; ”
Nothing about the old testament saying it. So your idiotic commebt already falls flat on its face. Secondly will you apply the same argument to jesus everytime when jews came and said something to him?
Self defense???
How about you show proof???
“As for breaking the treaty it could not demand the Jews to give up their right to self determination and to deny their beliefs which is what Mohammed was demanding”
Buahahahaha. Where did the prophet force them to accept him as a prophet? Where?
Your bible orders the killing of and entire people including women, children and livestock who had done NOTHING to the Israelites.
Dude, you’re really being inconsistent first off using your logic what was the Caaninties proof that Joshua(as) was a prophet?
A prophet being accepted or rejected has no basis for the validity of his mission. Again following the same logic you’re using the Jews had every right to reject Jesus(as). The Messiah was supposed to do several prophecies according to them and Jesus(as) never even got close to doing them. They can easily argue doing magic and saying vague stories is not proof of prophethood.
Finally, the treaty the Jews SIGNED with no coercion had NOTHING to do with recognizing Muhammad(saw) as a prophet. AT least learn about the subjet your debating on. The treaty they signed can be summed up as:
1. Mutual protection
2. Mutual Blood money sharing
This is what makes Islam so beautiful we don’t need to guess or use philosophical gymnastics to justify things. They signed, they broke the agreement and tried to attack unarmed women and children (which according to your book is a permissible and commendable act). God then turned the events on them and there a distant memory.
Ignoramus is one of those people who will not respond to reason. They cannot be reasoned with. The guy has his head so far up his rear end, he will be lucky if he can pull it out before Judgement Day.
“Finally, the treaty the Jews SIGNED with no coercion had NOTHING to do with recognizing Muhammad(saw) as a prophet. AT least learn about the subjet your debating on. The treaty they signed can be summed up as:
1. Mutual protection
2. Mutual Blood money sharing”
I agree. When the Jews first signed the treaty they probably thought that Mohammed was just some kind of tribal leader ombudsman and nothing more.
After a while Mohammed added the prophet and warner stuff and demanded more than the Jews bargained for in the treaty.
That would give them the right to revoke it as a free and self-determining political entity. They never agreed to the treaty on those terms.
“After a while Mohammed added the prophet and warner stuff and demanded more than the Jews bargained for in the treaty.”
Okey, very simple: show us where he demanded more than the treaty constituted.
Even if the jews didnt know about him being a prophet (which btw are you SERIOUS?????) how is this even remotely Muhammad’s fault? I mean you will try to find ANYTHING to not admit you are getting bitchslapped.
@ Erasmus
Dude just please stop talking because you clearly dont know anything on the incident and are just talking from your back pocket the first sentence of their treaty is:
“This is a writing of Muhammad, the Prophet, between the believers and the Muslims of Quraysh and Yathrib and those who follow them and are attached to them, and who fight together with them in war.”
So that claim is dead in the water. Next, it’s treacherous to break a treaty with no prior warning in the midst of being called to honor your treaty when an enemy is sieging the city and THEN do so through attacking women and children. Standard protocol for declarations of war or pulling out of a treaty is prior notice. This is why in the Qur’an when the Muslims are pulling from their treaties from people who violated them they gave a warning of 4 months:
9:1. ˹This is the˺ cut off by God and His Messenger from the treaties you’ve made with those who equate others ˹with Him˺.
9:2. Hang around in the land for four months, but keep in mind that you will never escape God, and that God will disgrace and humiliate those who’ve disbelieved.
9:3. This is a proclamation from God and His Messenger, to the people on the day of the Hajj pilgrimage. God is free from any commitment to the pagans, and so is His Messenger. If you repent now, it’s better for you. But if you decide to turn away, then be aware that you can never frustrate God’s will. So give the ones who disbelieve the ‘congratulations’ of a painful punishment.
9:4. As for those who have honored the treaty you made with them and have not supported anyone against you, fulfill your agreement with them to the end of their terms because God loves those who are god fearing.
9:5. When the forbidden months are over you may kill the idol worshippers wherever they’re encountered. Arrest, surround and wait for them at every checkpoint. ˹But˺ if they repent, establish prayer and give charity, let them go on their way because God is Most Forgiving and Forever Merciful.
9:6. If any of the pagans seeks your protection, grant it to them so that they can hear God’s Word. Then take them to a place where they feel comfortable and safe because they’re people that didn’t know.
9:7. How can there be a treaty with God and His Messenger with people who equate others ˹with Him˺? As for the ones who you made a treaty with at the Kaaba, you are to stand by it as long they stand by it, because God loves those who are mindful of Him.
9:8. How, when whenever they’ve had any opportunity to advance against you or have gained the upper hand, they do not respect any courtesies with you? They only try to flatter you with what their mouths utter, but their hearts are against you and most of them are corrupt.
9:9. They have sold God’s revelations for a small price, and blocked themselves and others from His path. Have no doubts about this, what they do is evil.
9:10. They would show no courtesy or regard whenever believers were concerned, whether it was the NORMS of being family or TREATIES. THEY ARE THE ONES who are committing the aggression.
9:11. If they repent, establish prayer and give charity, then they’re your brothers in faith. I will explain these verses in detail for people who are willing to learn.
9:12. However if they violate their treaty once they’ve agreed to it and insult your religion, then fight the leaders of disbelief so that they stop because their promises mean nothing to them,.
9:13. How can you not fight a people who’ve broken their word, tried to drive out the Messenger, and attacked you first? Do you fear them? It’s God you should fear if you’re people with true faith.
9:14. Fight them! God will punish them by your hands and humiliate them! He will help you against them and heal what’s in the chest of people who believe,
9:15. By removing the anger and frustration from their hearts. God accepts whoever He wishes into His mercy because God is the All knowing and the One who passes Judgement.
That’s called an OPEN declaration of war on these people and that in four months our treaty is no longer in effect. This is proper diplomacy procedure.
‘First this: “Finally, the treaty the Jews SIGNED with no coercion had NOTHING to do with recognizing Muhammad(saw) as a prophet.”
Then this: “This is a writing of Muhammad, the Prophet, between the believers and the Muslims of Quraysh and Yathrib and those who follow them and are attached to them, and who fight together with them in war.”
You seem to be confused stewjo. Make your mind up.
The video also contains a lot of stuff that is hard to believe. More likely it was all made up after they were massacred to justify the atrocity.
Why should the Jews attack women and children for example? What is the strategic benefit of that? And how did they do it, and how many casualties etc. No historical details as usual, just vague accusations to vilify the Jews and dehumanize them.
The impression is given that the Quraysh attacked the Muslims solely because they were egged on by the Jews. This is obviously also a fabricated lie. I’m just wasting my time thinking up reasons to falsify a fairy tale narrative which has no external verification from any source so I’ll stop here.
Why didn’t the Jews themselves keep any records of these events and pass them down for posterity?
Lol someone signing their title to a treaty has nothing to do with recognizing the title. For example “Lawrence, King of the Western Cleftlands hereby agrees…” that’s what’s happening in the treaty.
Moving on you’re arguing only for the sake of arguing. You keep being disproven then will jump from one conclusion to another (without any proof to mind you) and have been completely talking out of the area where your back pocket lies. Down the line:
1. No reason to lie about this incident from the historical-critical method POV especially seeing that the 2 other Jewish tribes Banu Qaynaqa and Nadir weren’t killed.
2. The Bible says it’s okay to kill women and children in war and a few people on this blog have defended the subject so this isn’t something above them or morally reprehensible according to you all.
3. 1 casualty happened from the attack on their side because the Muslim women played a trick:
A woman by the name of Safiyyah killed Qurayza’s scout. She had the only man in the garrison (who wasn’t fighting) throw his head over the wall to look as if there were men guarding the women and children.
4. You’ve got to love your complete ignorance on this subject yet wanting to debate it. Quraysh was already at war with the Muslims. Khyber was a Jewish city that the other two tribes went to when expelled. They offered to form an alliance with Quraysh and then got a few other tribes involved who didn’t really care about the Muslims and were simply being opportunistic because they thought it would be an easy win and spoils from the battle. Good move on their part. Qurayza was the last piece they needed for an encirclement. Qurayza hesitated but played their hand with their failed attack thus broke the treaty furthermore they provided weapons to the alliance. Negotiations happen reminding them to honor it but they decided to be treacherous and take advantage of the situation. The coalition forces fail soon after leaving them to their fate.
5. We don’t have records from their side because these people don’t exist on this planet anymore lol.
Now for the reversal:
1. How come we don’t have any writings from the Canaanites confirming the Biblical narrative? You guys say it was “God’s judgment for their evil” but what outside sources confirm this?
“you’re arguing only for the sake of arguing. You keep being disproven then will jump from one conclusion to another (without any proof to mind you) and have been completely talking out of the area where your back pocket lies”
HAHAHAHA, that describes Ignoramus quite well!
I think he knows that he is being an irrational little twerp. He knows he is just pulling nonsense out of his rear end and he will never be fair-minded. He is a true kafir.
“3. 1 casualty happened from the attack on their side because the Muslim women played a trick:
A woman by the name of Safiyyah killed Qurayza’s scout. She had the only man in the garrison (who wasn’t fighting) throw his head over the wall to look as if there were men guarding the women and children.”
So there was no attack and the video is a pack of lies.
“Quraysh was already at war with the Muslims. Khyber was a Jewish city that the other two tribes went to when expelled. ”
So Mohammed broke the treaty by expelling the Jews? Why should the remaining Jews feel bound by it then?
Let’s stop for a moment because you ignored my questions and keep moving the goalpost:
1. How come we don’t have any writings from the Canaanites confirming the Biblical narrative? You guys say it was “God’s judgment for their evil” but what outside sources confirm this?
Let me ask you a question. Was Mohammed practicing what he was preaching when he robbed the Jews, expelled them from Medina and sent them in to the desert? None of you has faith until you love for your neighbor what you love for yourself? These words have a hollow ring don’t they?
Not so simple as it appears.
If the neighbor is just a fellow muslim living next door then its no big deal.
Jesus defined what a neighbor is. I dont see Mohammed doing this beyond what is the normal scope of the definition.
To define non-muslims as unclean is practically tantamount to excluding the non-muslim from belonging to the category of “neighbor”.
Actually, it is simple dummy. A neighbor is anyone living next to you. In Medina, there were plenty of Jews living with Muslims.
Which hadith is he quoting?
LOL, so you didn’t even know which hadith he was quoting and yet you magically knew the Prophet Muhammad’s definition of “neighbor”?
Let Ignoramus’ education begin anew:
“It was narrated from Anas bin Malik that: “The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said: ‘None of you truly believes until he loves for his brother” or he said “for his neighbor, what he loves for himself.”” (Ibn Majah)
“Anas (RAA) narrated that the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said:
“By Him in Whose Hand my soul is, a slave of Allah does not truly believe till he wishes for his neighbor what he wishes for himself.”” (Bulugh Al-Maram)
“Mujahid narrated: “Abdullah bin Amr had a sheep slaughtered for his family, so when he came he said: ‘Have you given some to our neighbor, the Jew? Have you given some to our neighbor, the Jew? I heard the Messenger of Allah saying: ‘Jibril continued to advise me about (treating) the neighbors so (kindly and politely), that I thought he would order me (from Allah) to make them heirs.”” (Tirmidhi)
@ QB and Erasmus
I’m just going to add to the point and give the sources for your points so there’s no dispute:
Neighbor is inclusive:
Mujahid narrated:
“Abdullah bin Amr had a sheep slaughtered for his family, so when he came he said: ‘Have you given some to our neighbor, THE JEW? Have you given some to our neighbor, THE JEW? I heard the Messenger of Allah saying: ‘Jibril continued to advise me about (treating) the neighbors so (kindly and politely), that I thought he would order me (from Allah) to make them heirs.”
https://sunnah.com/tirmidhi/27/49
Al-Qurtubi (may Allah have mercy on him) said:
I say: based on that, kind treatment of neighbours is enjoined and is recommended, whether they are MUSLIM OR NOT. And this is the RIGHT THING TO DO. Kind treatment may be in the sense of helping or it may be in the sense of being kind, refraining from annoyance and standing by them. Al-Bukhaari narrated from ‘Aa’ishah that the Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) said: “Jibreel kept urging me to treat neighbours kindly until I thought that he would make them heirs.” And it was narrated from Abu Shurayh that the Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) said: “By Allah, he does not believe; by Allah, he does not believe; by Allah, he does not believe.” It was said: O Messenger of Allah, who is that? He said: “The one whose neighbour is not safe from his annoyance.” This is general in meaning and applies to all neighbours, and the Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) affirmed that the neighbour should not be annoyed by swearing three times and stating that the one who annoys his neighbour is not a believer in the complete sense. So the believer should avoid annoying his neighbour and refrain from doing what Allah and His Messenger have forbidden; he should strive to do that which pleases Him and encourage others to do likewise.
Serve God and equate none in worship with Him. Be good to your parents, relatives, orphans, the needy, your neighbors who are family as well as the ones who are strangers, the friend by your side and to slaves. God has no love for those who think they’re better than others or brags about what they think they themselves have achieved. (4:36)
This is a general principle in Islam:
Abu Hurayra reported that the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, “I was sent to perfect good character.”
https://sunnah.com/urn/2202730
Ignoramus’ education is just beginning…
Neither Christianity nor Islam are sole proprietors of the golden rule. It is found in many religions and cultures.
We never claimed to?
Bickering Christian and Muslims alike claim only their “loving the neighbor” is valid and matters apart from everybody else’s.
What on earth are you talking about?
Kindergarden
Right…🤪
The neighborly feelings soon evaporated after the Jews rejected Mohamed’s claims to be a prophet and tested him with questions, did they not?
So it seems that the neighborly behaviour is dependant on how people react to the claims of Islam.
What I don’t understand is why Mohammed went to the Jews as a warner in the first place. After all they are monotheists and people of the book.
@ Erasmus
Let’s be honest here, you knew you were reaching when you wrote that. Being good to your neighbor doesn’t mean being a fool. God says
60:8. God has not forbidden you from being kind and acting justly towards those who did not go to war with you over religion, nor kicked you out of your homes because loves those who implement justice.
60:9. God has only forbidden you in regards to those who fought against you on account of your faith, and have driven you out of your homes or helped and supported in your banishment. Whoever makes friends with them, are the ones doing wrong.
You’re confusing two different principles. You can be cordial and respectful to someone who has a different religion. That’s cool God says we can’t force anyone towards the truth, this doesn’t mean that person is not wrong and if they died wouldn’t be fuel for Hell.
This is like for example Jesus(as) and the Pharisees:
29Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the monuments of the righteous. 30And you say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partners with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ 31So you testify against yourselves that you are the sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32Fill up, then, the measure of the sin of your fathers. 33You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape the sentence of hell?
https://biblehub.com/bsb/matthew/23.htm
Are the Pharisee not his neighbor according to the definition given? However, they were wrong on religious values (in this case hypocrisy).
Moving on the Jews are not monotheist and do several forms of idolatry and blasphemy it’s just not as obvious as Christendom. The Jews:
1. Take their Rabbis as gods
9:31.They take their rabbis and their pastors as their lords instead of God, as well as Christ, the son of Mary. But they were commanded to serve only one God; because none have the right to be worshipped and obeyed but Him. And He is far above the allegations they connect to Him.
Examples:
A. Pretty much all the Talmud.
B. Pretty much any Targum
C. When God clearly says something is permissible or impermissible they will blindly follow what the Rabbis say.
2. Take angels for gods
3:80. He would never order you to take angels or prophets for lords. Would he command you to be disbelievers after you’ve submitted yourself to God?
Examples:
Azael
but the goat on which the lot fell for Azazel shall be presented alive before the LORD to make atonement over it, that it may be sent away into the wilderness to Azazel. (Leviticus 16:10)
This ritual was a sacrifice to the angel Azael
http://drmsh.com/day-atonement-leviticus-16-goat-azazel/
Metatron (aka little YHWH)
They still try to call upon him
https://www.thoughtco.com/how-to-recognize-archangel-metatron-124277
3. Reject Jesus(as) and Muhammad (saw) as prophets sent to them
4:150. Those who deny God and His Prophets, wishing to separate God from His prophets, say: “We believe in some but not in others…” seeking a middle way,
4:151. are in truth disbelievers and I have prepared a degrading punishment for them.
4:152. Those who believe in God and His Messengers, do not discriminate against any of them…
This means if you reject one prophet you reject ALL of God’s prophets.
4. Give God attributes of His creation
Examples:
A. God Rested
2And by the seventh day God had finished the work He had been doing; so on that day He rested from all His work. (Genesis 2:2)
B. God Regretted
The Lord regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled. (Genesis 6:6)
5. Changed their books and taught things their ancestors never knew
Examples:
A. All of the above
B. JEDP theory and the Torah’s compilation
C. “‘How can you say, “We are wise, for we have the law (Torah) of the LORD,” when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely? (Jeremiah 8:8)
D. All the examples here:
http://www.manyprophetsonemessage.com/2014/05/14/the-corruption-of-the-torah/
All of these are reasons for a warner being sent to them. Same as how previous prophets were sent to warn them.
Brilliant response!
Ignoramus, do you enjoy being exposed as an idiot? Jews continued to live in Arabia even after the Prophet died.
Also, some of the Jews in Arabia had heretical beliefs like Ezra being the son of God. And of course, all Jews rejected Jesus (pbuh). That is why they needed to be warned as well.
There is no proof that the Jews that Mohammed went to were actually doctrinally compromised in any way. And if so why should a Bedouin arab stick his nose in? None of his business.
The unnecessary conflict arose and was continued until it developed in to a war because Mohammed would not back away and leave them in peace after they rejected his claims to be a prophet.
Actually, there is plenty of proof, just as we have plenty of proof that you are a clown who belongs in the circus.
If the claim about the Jews saying that Ezra was the son of God was untrue, it would not make sense to make that accusation only to have the Jews deny it.
The conflict arose when the Jews began to cooperate with the pagans, in violation of their treaty with Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). This was a far cry from what happened to the Gibeonites. They had heard of the mass killings of other city-states and sought to make a treaty with Joshua while pretending they were from a far away place. You can’t blame them for using such deception, but when they were discovered, their punishment was to become slaves. What a deal, huh?
@ Erasmus
You’re entire argument is weird from a number of angles:
1. Not a prophet’s business
Uhhh…where did you read that? A prophet’s job is to correct the people. For example:
A. Why was it Jesus(as) business that the Jews were selling sacrifices in the Temple?
B. Why was it Elijah’s business that the Jews decided to worship Baal? (Where is the freedom of religion?)
C. Why is it Joshuah’s(as) buisness that the Canaanites are in the Holy Land? (Move your feet lose your seat)
We can keep doing this all day. if someone speaks for God the people have to listen. To not do so is a form of idolatry because your rejecting Gods message for something and thus put it above God.
2. No proof of doctrine incompatibility
Note I listed other things besides this but again where did you read that? Islam opposes many Jewish beliefs here are a few examples:
A. God being anthropomorphic
B. Use of magic
C. The status of Jesus(as)
D. Saint and tomb worship
E. Angel worship
F. Who’s included in the Covenant
G. Are they the Chosen People and is their race superior to everyone
H. Did they change the Torah and was the Torah everlasting
I. The number of prophets and their character
3. War with the Jews
They violated their treaties (which is a big no-no btw). Even the Qur’an accuses them of that:
I’ve revealed to you verses of clear evidence, which none would deny except the defiant who are full of corruption. Is it not, that every time they’ve made a promise, some of them threw it away carelessly? No, rather it’s most of them never even believed in it sincerely to begin with. (2:99-100)
Let’s see the examples of they’re betrayal and the seriousness of it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mK3pQR7Ci98
Yeah poor them. Literally, an entire Chapter is dedicated to this incident and they’re betrayal I’ll just leave some highlights:
59:3. …had God not decreed banishment for them, He would’ve punished them in the worldly life. ˹But˺ the punishment of the Fire awaits in the Next.
59:4. This is due to the fact that they opposed God and His Messenger at every turn; and whoever opposes God should know that God is stern in Retribution.
59:11. Didn’t you see the hypocrites saying to their brothers, among the People of the Scripture who are disbelievers: “If you’re driven out, we’ll go forth with you, and we will never obey anyone in ˹anything that˺ concerns you. And if you’re fought against, we’ll help you.” God testifies that they’re utter liars.
59:12. If they’re driven out, they will not leave with them, and if they’re fought, they will not aid them. And if they were to aid them, they will turn their backs ˹running away to˺, so they’ll never be victorious.
59:13. Why? This is due to the fact that you’re a greater cause of terror in their hearts than God because they’re people who don’t understand.
59:14. They will not fight against you if you’re united except in fortified cities or from behind walls. Their wars and conflicts among themselves are intense, you think they’re united; but in actuality their hearts are divided. This is due to the fact that they’re people who refuse to apply their intellect
Ignoramus has no self-respect. They guy is willing to betray his own mangod just to make the Bani Qurayza and other Jewish tribes appear innocent. It’s pathetic! These Christians have sold their souls because of their stubborn Islamophobia.
“If the claim about the Jews saying that Ezra was the son of God was untrue, it would not make sense to make that accusation only to have the Jews deny it.”
More likely the Jews spun a yarn to make fun of Mohammed and expose his ignorance of the OT and he fell for it.
“1. Not a prophet’s business
Uhhh…where did you read that? A prophet’s job is to correct the people. For example:”
I don’t think they got beyond testing his claims. Aren’t you putting the cart before the horse?
As for breaking the treaty it could not demand the Jews to give up their right to self determination and to deny their beliefs which is what Mohammed was demanding, as a self-appointed prophet, and why they had to withdraw from it to defend themselves.
“More likely the Jews spun a yarn to make fun of Mohammed and expose his ignorance of the OT and he fell for it.”
What a pathetic respons! That is it???
Firstly the Qur’an says “The Jews say, “Ezra is the son of Allah “; ”
Nothing about the old testament saying it. So your idiotic commebt already falls flat on its face. Secondly will you apply the same argument to jesus everytime when jews came and said something to him?
Self defense???
How about you show proof???
“As for breaking the treaty it could not demand the Jews to give up their right to self determination and to deny their beliefs which is what Mohammed was demanding”
Buahahahaha. Where did the prophet force them to accept him as a prophet? Where?
Your bible orders the killing of and entire people including women, children and livestock who had done NOTHING to the Israelites.
@ Erasmus
Dude, you’re really being inconsistent first off using your logic what was the Caaninties proof that Joshua(as) was a prophet?
A prophet being accepted or rejected has no basis for the validity of his mission. Again following the same logic you’re using the Jews had every right to reject Jesus(as). The Messiah was supposed to do several prophecies according to them and Jesus(as) never even got close to doing them. They can easily argue doing magic and saying vague stories is not proof of prophethood.
Finally, the treaty the Jews SIGNED with no coercion had NOTHING to do with recognizing Muhammad(saw) as a prophet. AT least learn about the subjet your debating on. The treaty they signed can be summed up as:
1. Mutual protection
2. Mutual Blood money sharing
https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Medina_Charter
This is what makes Islam so beautiful we don’t need to guess or use philosophical gymnastics to justify things. They signed, they broke the agreement and tried to attack unarmed women and children (which according to your book is a permissible and commendable act). God then turned the events on them and there a distant memory.
Ignoramus is one of those people who will not respond to reason. They cannot be reasoned with. The guy has his head so far up his rear end, he will be lucky if he can pull it out before Judgement Day.
“Finally, the treaty the Jews SIGNED with no coercion had NOTHING to do with recognizing Muhammad(saw) as a prophet. AT least learn about the subjet your debating on. The treaty they signed can be summed up as:
1. Mutual protection
2. Mutual Blood money sharing”
I agree. When the Jews first signed the treaty they probably thought that Mohammed was just some kind of tribal leader ombudsman and nothing more.
After a while Mohammed added the prophet and warner stuff and demanded more than the Jews bargained for in the treaty.
That would give them the right to revoke it as a free and self-determining political entity. They never agreed to the treaty on those terms.
“After a while Mohammed added the prophet and warner stuff and demanded more than the Jews bargained for in the treaty.”
Okey, very simple: show us where he demanded more than the treaty constituted.
Even if the jews didnt know about him being a prophet (which btw are you SERIOUS?????) how is this even remotely Muhammad’s fault? I mean you will try to find ANYTHING to not admit you are getting bitchslapped.
@ Erasmus
Dude just please stop talking because you clearly dont know anything on the incident and are just talking from your back pocket the first sentence of their treaty is:
“This is a writing of Muhammad, the Prophet, between the believers and the Muslims of Quraysh and Yathrib and those who follow them and are attached to them, and who fight together with them in war.”
So that claim is dead in the water. Next, it’s treacherous to break a treaty with no prior warning in the midst of being called to honor your treaty when an enemy is sieging the city and THEN do so through attacking women and children. Standard protocol for declarations of war or pulling out of a treaty is prior notice. This is why in the Qur’an when the Muslims are pulling from their treaties from people who violated them they gave a warning of 4 months:
9:1. ˹This is the˺ cut off by God and His Messenger from the treaties you’ve made with those who equate others ˹with Him˺.
9:2. Hang around in the land for four months, but keep in mind that you will never escape God, and that God will disgrace and humiliate those who’ve disbelieved.
9:3. This is a proclamation from God and His Messenger, to the people on the day of the Hajj pilgrimage. God is free from any commitment to the pagans, and so is His Messenger. If you repent now, it’s better for you. But if you decide to turn away, then be aware that you can never frustrate God’s will. So give the ones who disbelieve the ‘congratulations’ of a painful punishment.
9:4. As for those who have honored the treaty you made with them and have not supported anyone against you, fulfill your agreement with them to the end of their terms because God loves those who are god fearing.
9:5. When the forbidden months are over you may kill the idol worshippers wherever they’re encountered. Arrest, surround and wait for them at every checkpoint. ˹But˺ if they repent, establish prayer and give charity, let them go on their way because God is Most Forgiving and Forever Merciful.
9:6. If any of the pagans seeks your protection, grant it to them so that they can hear God’s Word. Then take them to a place where they feel comfortable and safe because they’re people that didn’t know.
9:7. How can there be a treaty with God and His Messenger with people who equate others ˹with Him˺? As for the ones who you made a treaty with at the Kaaba, you are to stand by it as long they stand by it, because God loves those who are mindful of Him.
9:8. How, when whenever they’ve had any opportunity to advance against you or have gained the upper hand, they do not respect any courtesies with you? They only try to flatter you with what their mouths utter, but their hearts are against you and most of them are corrupt.
9:9. They have sold God’s revelations for a small price, and blocked themselves and others from His path. Have no doubts about this, what they do is evil.
9:10. They would show no courtesy or regard whenever believers were concerned, whether it was the NORMS of being family or TREATIES. THEY ARE THE ONES who are committing the aggression.
9:11. If they repent, establish prayer and give charity, then they’re your brothers in faith. I will explain these verses in detail for people who are willing to learn.
9:12. However if they violate their treaty once they’ve agreed to it and insult your religion, then fight the leaders of disbelief so that they stop because their promises mean nothing to them,.
9:13. How can you not fight a people who’ve broken their word, tried to drive out the Messenger, and attacked you first? Do you fear them? It’s God you should fear if you’re people with true faith.
9:14. Fight them! God will punish them by your hands and humiliate them! He will help you against them and heal what’s in the chest of people who believe,
9:15. By removing the anger and frustration from their hearts. God accepts whoever He wishes into His mercy because God is the All knowing and the One who passes Judgement.
That’s called an OPEN declaration of war on these people and that in four months our treaty is no longer in effect. This is proper diplomacy procedure.
Look guys, there is a reason I refer to this clown as “Ignoramus”. He talks out of his rear-end and nothing comes out but false statements.
‘First this: “Finally, the treaty the Jews SIGNED with no coercion had NOTHING to do with recognizing Muhammad(saw) as a prophet.”
Then this: “This is a writing of Muhammad, the Prophet, between the believers and the Muslims of Quraysh and Yathrib and those who follow them and are attached to them, and who fight together with them in war.”
You seem to be confused stewjo. Make your mind up.
The video also contains a lot of stuff that is hard to believe. More likely it was all made up after they were massacred to justify the atrocity.
Why should the Jews attack women and children for example? What is the strategic benefit of that? And how did they do it, and how many casualties etc. No historical details as usual, just vague accusations to vilify the Jews and dehumanize them.
The impression is given that the Quraysh attacked the Muslims solely because they were egged on by the Jews. This is obviously also a fabricated lie. I’m just wasting my time thinking up reasons to falsify a fairy tale narrative which has no external verification from any source so I’ll stop here.
Why didn’t the Jews themselves keep any records of these events and pass them down for posterity?
Lol someone signing their title to a treaty has nothing to do with recognizing the title. For example “Lawrence, King of the Western Cleftlands hereby agrees…” that’s what’s happening in the treaty.
Moving on you’re arguing only for the sake of arguing. You keep being disproven then will jump from one conclusion to another (without any proof to mind you) and have been completely talking out of the area where your back pocket lies. Down the line:
1. No reason to lie about this incident from the historical-critical method POV especially seeing that the 2 other Jewish tribes Banu Qaynaqa and Nadir weren’t killed.
2. The Bible says it’s okay to kill women and children in war and a few people on this blog have defended the subject so this isn’t something above them or morally reprehensible according to you all.
3. 1 casualty happened from the attack on their side because the Muslim women played a trick:
A woman by the name of Safiyyah killed Qurayza’s scout. She had the only man in the garrison (who wasn’t fighting) throw his head over the wall to look as if there were men guarding the women and children.
4. You’ve got to love your complete ignorance on this subject yet wanting to debate it. Quraysh was already at war with the Muslims. Khyber was a Jewish city that the other two tribes went to when expelled. They offered to form an alliance with Quraysh and then got a few other tribes involved who didn’t really care about the Muslims and were simply being opportunistic because they thought it would be an easy win and spoils from the battle. Good move on their part. Qurayza was the last piece they needed for an encirclement. Qurayza hesitated but played their hand with their failed attack thus broke the treaty furthermore they provided weapons to the alliance. Negotiations happen reminding them to honor it but they decided to be treacherous and take advantage of the situation. The coalition forces fail soon after leaving them to their fate.
5. We don’t have records from their side because these people don’t exist on this planet anymore lol.
Now for the reversal:
1. How come we don’t have any writings from the Canaanites confirming the Biblical narrative? You guys say it was “God’s judgment for their evil” but what outside sources confirm this?
2. What was the proof that the Jews did anything they did according to the Gospels?
https://quranandbibleblog.wordpress.com/2018/07/21/top-8-contentions-against-the-crucifixion-part-i/
“you’re arguing only for the sake of arguing. You keep being disproven then will jump from one conclusion to another (without any proof to mind you) and have been completely talking out of the area where your back pocket lies”
HAHAHAHA, that describes Ignoramus quite well!
I think he knows that he is being an irrational little twerp. He knows he is just pulling nonsense out of his rear end and he will never be fair-minded. He is a true kafir.
“3. 1 casualty happened from the attack on their side because the Muslim women played a trick:
A woman by the name of Safiyyah killed Qurayza’s scout. She had the only man in the garrison (who wasn’t fighting) throw his head over the wall to look as if there were men guarding the women and children.”
So there was no attack and the video is a pack of lies.
“Quraysh was already at war with the Muslims. Khyber was a Jewish city that the other two tribes went to when expelled. ”
So Mohammed broke the treaty by expelling the Jews? Why should the remaining Jews feel bound by it then?
@ Erasmus
Let’s stop for a moment because you ignored my questions and keep moving the goalpost:
1. How come we don’t have any writings from the Canaanites confirming the Biblical narrative? You guys say it was “God’s judgment for their evil” but what outside sources confirm this?
2. What was the proof that the Jews did anything they did according to the Gospels?
https://quranandbibleblog.wordpress.com/2018/07/21/top-8-contentions-against-the-crucifixion-part-i/
@ Erasmus
Also, let me ask a third question:
“When is genocide of a people and killing surrendering women and children morally justifiable?”
Let me ask you a question. Was Mohammed practicing what he was preaching when he robbed the Jews, expelled them from Medina and sent them in to the desert? None of you has faith until you love for your neighbor what you love for yourself? These words have a hollow ring don’t they?